Military Forum for Russian and Global Defence Issues


    Future russian aircraft carriers.

    Share
    avatar
    Flyingdutchman
    Lieutenant
    Lieutenant

    Posts : 551
    Points : 569
    Join date : 2013-07-30
    Location : The Netherlands

    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers.

    Post  Flyingdutchman on Thu Aug 01, 2013 11:29 am

    GarryB wrote:
    So the russians need experience first right?

    Well they need a carrier design to be completed first and then scrutinised and checked for potential problems/issues, and then lots of discussion... physical scale modelling and computer modelling and likely a few rival bids as well.

    Like I said before there is no point having a second carrier... even now as there is not enough support infrastructure and vessels to support two carriers at the moment.

    When can i expect the beginning of a second aircraft carrier?

    They likely wont start building a second carrier till 2022 at least, though they might lay two at once by then because by 2030 when they enter service the K might be ready to be put in reserve as a training carrier.

    The shipyard is already there then right?

    I suspect the new shipyard in Vladivostok will start with civilian ship production first... likely a few icebreaking LNG carriers or crude oil carriers able to sail the northern route.

    When wil the bleuprints be ready?
    Will they show them to the public?

    Very unlikely to reveal the real blueprints any time soon... even after they are finished... likely a few photos of bits of carrier like we have with the current frigate program.

    Well thats actually very nice!
    Thanks for the info!
    avatar
    Flyingdutchman
    Lieutenant
    Lieutenant

    Posts : 551
    Points : 569
    Join date : 2013-07-30
    Location : The Netherlands

    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers.

    Post  Flyingdutchman on Fri Aug 02, 2013 11:29 am

    Will the russian navy station an aircraft carrier in vladivostok to counter the us navy?
    avatar
    GarryB
    Colonel
    Colonel

    Posts : 16071
    Points : 16762
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers.

    Post  GarryB on Sat Aug 03, 2013 11:24 am

    It is very likely they will station two of their Mistral class carriers in the Pacific Fleet, and the other two in the Northern Fleet. Regarding fixed wing carriers I would expect the same as the two main focus areas for Russia are protecting the Kurile Islands from Japanese attack, while also boosting the far east and its economic growth and expansion, and the arctic as a place for an alternative route from Asia to Europe for shipping and also mineral rights and oil and gas exploration.

    In each case the presence of a significant fleet and a carrier or two would be very useful.


    _________________
    “The West won the world not by the superiority of its ideas or values or religion […] but rather by its superiority in applying organized violence. Westerners often forget this fact; non-Westerners never do.”

    ― Samuel P. Huntington, The Clash of Civilizations and the Remaking of World Order
    avatar
    GarryB
    Colonel
    Colonel

    Posts : 16071
    Points : 16762
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers.

    Post  GarryB on Sat Aug 03, 2013 11:25 am

    I suspect the two Mistral class carriers made in France will be deployed in the Pacific fleet, while the two made largely in Russia will likely be stationed in Murmansk for the Northern Fleet.


    _________________
    “The West won the world not by the superiority of its ideas or values or religion […] but rather by its superiority in applying organized violence. Westerners often forget this fact; non-Westerners never do.”

    ― Samuel P. Huntington, The Clash of Civilizations and the Remaking of World Order
    avatar
    Flyingdutchman
    Lieutenant
    Lieutenant

    Posts : 551
    Points : 569
    Join date : 2013-07-30
    Location : The Netherlands

    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers.

    Post  Flyingdutchman on Sat Aug 03, 2013 12:34 pm

    Oke so they actually split there new naval forces?
    avatar
    flamming_python
    Colonel
    Colonel

    Posts : 3207
    Points : 3327
    Join date : 2012-01-30

    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers.

    Post  flamming_python on Sat Aug 03, 2013 2:46 pm

    2 Mistrals for the Pacific fleet I think goes without saying. There they are not only right on the doorstep of potential conflicts in East Asia but also ready for combat missions or humanitarian assistance to South-East Asia, Indonesia and the Indian Ocean.

    However I'm not sure whether 2 Mistrals in the Northern Fleet would be optimal though; there's absolutely nothing for them to do there, and it makes sense to keep the Mistrals where the action might kick off.

    Perhaps 1 Mistral in the Northern Fleet (that could be sent as part of a Northern Fleet taskforce to South America, Africa), and 1 Mistral in the Black Sea fleet (to share between the Black Sea basin and Mediterranean task force).

    But with only 1 Mistral with each fleet; there is no assurance that at any time at least one would be ready for action (refits, training/exercises, long-range visits to other countries could all make them unavailable).

    So perhaps 2 Mistrals for the Black Sea fleet would be best; one permanently in the Black Sea (in case of trouble in Abkhazia, Georgia, Romania/Moldova/Pridnestrovie), and one deployed to the Mediterranean flotilla. If needed, a Mistral can always be sent as part of a group to Africa or South America too.
    avatar
    medo
    Colonel
    Colonel

    Posts : 3136
    Points : 3234
    Join date : 2010-10-24
    Location : Slovenia

    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers.

    Post  medo on Sat Aug 03, 2013 6:52 pm

    Mistrals have nothing to do in closed Baltic or Black Sea. All needed support and transport could be done from the Russian land and smaller ships. Two Mistrals will be more useful in Northern sea to operate together with Kuznetsov, Peter the great and nuclear icebreakers. Their operational teatre will be northern route and defending northern territories, because there are not many units in arctic region.
    avatar
    Flyingdutchman
    Lieutenant
    Lieutenant

    Posts : 551
    Points : 569
    Join date : 2013-07-30
    Location : The Netherlands

    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers.

    Post  Flyingdutchman on Sat Aug 03, 2013 8:08 pm

    So the other two Will be stationed at vladivostok?
    avatar
    GarryB
    Colonel
    Colonel

    Posts : 16071
    Points : 16762
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers.

    Post  GarryB on Sun Aug 04, 2013 10:11 am

    Vladivostok will have 2 Mistrals... the main drive and urgency for their purchase was Georgias invasion of South Ossetia... the Russians realised that if it had been a Japanese invasion of the four Kurile Islands that they likely would not have been able to mobilise fast enough to stop them and once occupied would not have had the available forces to remove them easily.

    The result is that they ordered the Mistrals primarily to protect the Kurile Islands.

    They ordered two more because 4 makes more sense than just 2 or one economically.

    The Russian design for Mistral includes strengthened hulls to operate in ice and also increased height decks for the high coaxial rotor systems of the Hokums.

    The basing of the other two Mistrals in Murmansk shows the Russian Navys new role of protecting Russian interests to its north... including its northern coastline and offshore resources.

    There are lots of plans for military groups able to operate in the Arctic and also ship based nuclear power stations designed to be sailed to ports and up rivers to provide hot water and electricity to outposts to expand exploration and exploitation of new areas of Russia. It will also include scientific exploration too.


    _________________
    “The West won the world not by the superiority of its ideas or values or religion […] but rather by its superiority in applying organized violence. Westerners often forget this fact; non-Westerners never do.”

    ― Samuel P. Huntington, The Clash of Civilizations and the Remaking of World Order
    avatar
    Flyingdutchman
    Lieutenant
    Lieutenant

    Posts : 551
    Points : 569
    Join date : 2013-07-30
    Location : The Netherlands

    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers.

    Post  Flyingdutchman on Tue Aug 06, 2013 9:34 am

    Actually thats all very intresting!
    I never read about the kurile islands but i searched it on google.

    I have a question for you guys: is there an upcoming war for the kurile islands?
    avatar
    TR1
    Colonel
    Colonel

    Posts : 5816
    Points : 5864
    Join date : 2011-12-06

    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers.

    Post  TR1 on Tue Aug 06, 2013 9:42 am

    No, not a chance.

    It is a cold conflict, a political spat at this point.
    avatar
    GarryB
    Colonel
    Colonel

    Posts : 16071
    Points : 16762
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers.

    Post  GarryB on Tue Aug 06, 2013 10:42 am

    Unless Japan offers trillions in joint development cooperation, or a Russian President as naive as Boris... as drunk as Boris gives it as a gesture then I think the current situation will continue without change.

    They are barren empty rocks with Russian military personnel on them... Japan will have no chance for surprise and in a face off will not have the military force to take them.

    The islands themselves are not worth much but the waters around them are valuable for fishing for both countries, but it is also strategically important to the Russian Pacific Fleet.


    _________________
    “The West won the world not by the superiority of its ideas or values or religion […] but rather by its superiority in applying organized violence. Westerners often forget this fact; non-Westerners never do.”

    ― Samuel P. Huntington, The Clash of Civilizations and the Remaking of World Order
    avatar
    Flyingdutchman
    Lieutenant
    Lieutenant

    Posts : 551
    Points : 569
    Join date : 2013-07-30
    Location : The Netherlands

    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers.

    Post  Flyingdutchman on Tue Aug 06, 2013 11:19 am

    Are the russians boosting the pacific fleet?
    avatar
    GarryB
    Colonel
    Colonel

    Posts : 16071
    Points : 16762
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers.

    Post  GarryB on Tue Aug 06, 2013 11:35 am

    Yes.

    They will be sending two Mistral class helicopter carriers there in the next two years and will likely be sending lots of new support ships there to support their operations.

    They will also likely be boosting infrastructure there to support more ships and subs, while the land and air forces there will also be getting new equipment and training.


    _________________
    “The West won the world not by the superiority of its ideas or values or religion […] but rather by its superiority in applying organized violence. Westerners often forget this fact; non-Westerners never do.”

    ― Samuel P. Huntington, The Clash of Civilizations and the Remaking of World Order
    avatar
    Flyingdutchman
    Lieutenant
    Lieutenant

    Posts : 551
    Points : 569
    Join date : 2013-07-30
    Location : The Netherlands

    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers.

    Post  Flyingdutchman on Tue Aug 06, 2013 12:54 pm

    Is this all because there is an upcoming conflict?
    avatar
    GarryB
    Colonel
    Colonel

    Posts : 16071
    Points : 16762
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers.

    Post  GarryB on Wed Aug 07, 2013 12:46 pm

    No.

    Actually Russia boosting its Naval and armed forces in the Pacific region should actually reduce the chances for a military conflict.

    If Japan had struck in 2008 instead of Georgia then I think the Russian forces in the region would have struggled to have reacted in time to do anything.

    The rocks in question were unmanned.

    Now they are not and the quality of forces and the levels of equipment they are operating is improving all the time.

    By 2015 when the Mistrals are actually based there I think Japan would not be able to take them by force without a serious bloodbath disproportionate to the value of the Islands and the seas around them.


    _________________
    “The West won the world not by the superiority of its ideas or values or religion […] but rather by its superiority in applying organized violence. Westerners often forget this fact; non-Westerners never do.”

    ― Samuel P. Huntington, The Clash of Civilizations and the Remaking of World Order
    avatar
    Flyingdutchman
    Lieutenant
    Lieutenant

    Posts : 551
    Points : 569
    Join date : 2013-07-30
    Location : The Netherlands

    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers.

    Post  Flyingdutchman on Wed Aug 07, 2013 4:37 pm

    And what about china and india? I think russia wil support india in a war wouldnt they?

    And would russia support india to in an upcoming war with pakistan?

    And isnt Russia building new carriers to counter the chinese growing navy?
    avatar
    NationalRus
    Senior Lieutenant
    Senior Lieutenant

    Posts : 635
    Points : 646
    Join date : 2010-04-11

    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers.

    Post  NationalRus on Wed Aug 07, 2013 6:00 pm

    Flyingdutchman wrote:And what about china and india? I think russia wil support india in a war wouldnt they?

    And would russia support india to in an upcoming war with pakistan?

    And isnt Russia building new carriers to counter the chinese growing navy?

    no we wont support india in a imaginary fantasy war, grow up
    avatar
    Flyingdutchman
    Lieutenant
    Lieutenant

    Posts : 551
    Points : 569
    Join date : 2013-07-30
    Location : The Netherlands

    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers.

    Post  Flyingdutchman on Wed Aug 07, 2013 7:06 pm

    Well i am just 12 so i still need to grow up yeah.

    Tell me if your having problems with it.
    avatar
    GarryB
    Colonel
    Colonel

    Posts : 16071
    Points : 16762
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers.

    Post  GarryB on Thu Aug 08, 2013 3:02 am

    And what about china and india? I think russia wil support india in a war wouldnt they?

    And would russia support india to in an upcoming war with pakistan?

    And isnt Russia building new carriers to counter the chinese growing navy?

    Russia is unlikely to intervene in any conflict involving China or India or both.

    India would not need Russian assistance against Pakistan, and a conflict between China and India is unlikely.

    Russia is building carriers to support its own fleet operations to become a blue water navy. It is no more building them to counter a growing Chinese navy than it is building them to counter a growing Indian navy.


    _________________
    “The West won the world not by the superiority of its ideas or values or religion […] but rather by its superiority in applying organized violence. Westerners often forget this fact; non-Westerners never do.”

    ― Samuel P. Huntington, The Clash of Civilizations and the Remaking of World Order
    avatar
    Flyingdutchman
    Lieutenant
    Lieutenant

    Posts : 551
    Points : 569
    Join date : 2013-07-30
    Location : The Netherlands

    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers.

    Post  Flyingdutchman on Thu Aug 08, 2013 10:31 am

    Thanks
    avatar
    sepheronx
    Colonel
    Colonel

    Posts : 7291
    Points : 7595
    Join date : 2009-08-06
    Age : 27
    Location : Canada

    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers.

    Post  sepheronx on Thu Aug 08, 2013 11:29 am

    I truely think Russia needs to take a good look at what they had previously. The Yak-141 jumpjet project was too good to give up, and yet, they did (understandably during the time it was being worked on). What I am getting at though is that a ship like what Japan recently commissioned, the 22DDH, is a wonderful ship, and something like that for Russian navy is hundreds of times better than the Mistral, and Kuztnetsov is in desperate need of repair and modernization.
    avatar
    Flyingdutchman
    Lieutenant
    Lieutenant

    Posts : 551
    Points : 569
    Join date : 2013-07-30
    Location : The Netherlands

    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers.

    Post  Flyingdutchman on Thu Aug 08, 2013 12:39 pm

    Thats treu if the russians are having à ship like that with à new model of the jumpjet thans more effective than mistrals!
    avatar
    GarryB
    Colonel
    Colonel

    Posts : 16071
    Points : 16762
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers.

    Post  GarryB on Thu Aug 08, 2013 2:28 pm

    At the end of the day a jump jet is a horribly compromised aircraft... it is much better than a helicopter, but not much better than most conventional take off aircraft in the same category.

    The Harrier got a very good reputation because when used in anger it was used with a late model Sidewinder that could lock on to the front of an enemy aircraft. This meant that the Harrier had a much better chance of a lock and a kill than its opponents.

    Later Harriers got AMRAAM which meant it still had a good primary weapon and it had a good radar, but if it went up against a more potent enemy it would have been in trouble.

    Against a Mig-21 it would have probably had better AAMs but in terms of speed it could not dictate combat.

    Against a Mig-23 it would not have had any BVR missiles so the Mig would have had an advantage in terms of speed, range and engagement options.

    Against a modern jet it would be hard to develop a VSTOL aircraft that was better than any ground based equivalent... the requirement to take off vertically limits effective weight... most use rolling takeoffs to increase payload... so you might as well have a real plane anyway.

    In terms of supporting amphibious operations the Mistral is a very very useful vessel. In terms of humanitarian use helicopters are vastly more useful than jump jets.

    Problems near the Kurile Islands can be supported by land based Russian fighters... fixed wing carriers will not be so critical in such an instance.


    _________________
    “The West won the world not by the superiority of its ideas or values or religion […] but rather by its superiority in applying organized violence. Westerners often forget this fact; non-Westerners never do.”

    ― Samuel P. Huntington, The Clash of Civilizations and the Remaking of World Order
    avatar
    Flyingdutchman
    Lieutenant
    Lieutenant

    Posts : 551
    Points : 569
    Join date : 2013-07-30
    Location : The Netherlands

    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers.

    Post  Flyingdutchman on Thu Aug 08, 2013 4:41 pm

    Thats à very good point

    Sponsored content

    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers.

    Post  Sponsored content


      Current date/time is Tue Apr 25, 2017 4:25 pm