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    Future russian aircraft carriers.

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    TR1
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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers.

    Post  TR1 on Tue Feb 04, 2014 2:26 am

    Yeah by virtue of its subs alone, how is Russia NOT a global navy? Ridiculous.

    Btw, just getting the Nakhimov alone back in service will end up costing the equivalent of probably 2-3 dozen PAK-FA at the very least.

    Projecting, developing and building a ship that you envision will cost closer to 400 PAK-FAs than 40 Wink .

    Not to mention Russia has a thousand priorities before making some stealth/shore bombardment monster, especially when the traditional weakness (land attack) is being rectified through widespread Kalibr proliferation.
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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers.

    Post  Flyingdutchman on Tue Feb 04, 2014 7:53 am

    George1 wrote:Russia May Build New Aircraft Carrier by 2023 – Designer

    MOSCOW, February 3 (RIA Novosti) – The development and construction of a new aircraft carrier for the Russian navy could take about 10 years, a St. Petersburg-based ship design bureau said Monday.

    Sergei Vlasov, general director of the Nevskoye design bureau, said the overall cost of the ship could range between 100 and 250 billion rubles ($2.8-7.1 billion).

    “If the ship will be armed with a variety of weaponry, its cost will skyrocket, but if it will carry only air defense systems, the cost will be less,” the official said.

    Vlasov said his bureau could design both a nuclear-powered and conventional version of the aircraft carrier. The former would have a deadweight of up to 85,000 metric tons, while the latter – up to 65,000 tons.

    The nuclear-powered ship would be able to carry some 70 aircraft and helicopters, while the conventional vessel – up to 55, he said.

    Vlasov added that the new carrier would serve as a seaborne platform for new-generation fixed- and rotary-winged aircraft, in particular a fifth-generation fighter set to replace the Su-33 multirole fighter aircraft currently in service, as well as unmanned aerial vehicles (UAV).

    According to Vlasov, the Russian navy needs at least four aircraft carriers: two for the Northern Fleet and two for the Pacific Fleet.

    At present, Russia has only one aircraft carrier, the Admiral Kuznetsov, built in 1985, with a displacement of 55,000 metric tons, a crew of 1,500 and capability to carry more than 50 aircraft.

    NICE!!!!!! The on of 85.000 tons sounds like the ulyanovsk!
    But i still would go for a updated kuznetsov, maybe Nuke Propulsion and of course one catapult!
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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers.

    Post  collegeboy16 on Tue Feb 04, 2014 1:22 pm

    KomissarBojanchev wrote:
    Another option would be(I prefer this one) would be to build succesors of the Kirovs that can fight almost completely independently and more stealthily, and be able to kill 2-3 carriers per encounter. And install 203mm< guns fring assisted ammo on them for shore bombardment and cheap dispatch of small ships as well as some kalibrs. Much cheaper than 40 T-50s. Of course that would be putting all your eggs in 1 basket but so do carriers to a large extent and as we see today the Russians hate cheap to build specialized vessels. There is no solution.
    They already have the Yasen class which is stealthier than any stealthified surface ship and with scramjet missiles could potentially massacre carrier groups. Shore bombardment is passe? anyway, a smart enemy would just move his assets further inland and use airpower, missiles and artillery. Anyway, if by any chance they happen to have some extra money I think further improvement of Yasen class would be nice. Put some pumjet in it, make it all digital, increase automation even further, cover it with the new composite skin they are talking about, give it a satellite based targeting system. Basically most of which they are trying to do.
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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers.

    Post  magnumcromagnon on Tue Feb 04, 2014 6:56 pm

    collegeboy16 wrote:
    KomissarBojanchev wrote:
    Another option would be(I prefer this one) would be to build succesors of the Kirovs that can fight almost completely independently and more stealthily, and be able to kill 2-3 carriers per encounter. And install 203mm< guns fring assisted ammo on them for shore bombardment and cheap dispatch of small ships as well as some kalibrs. Much cheaper than 40 T-50s. Of course that would be putting all your eggs in 1 basket but so do carriers to a large extent and as we see today the Russians hate cheap to build specialized vessels. There is no solution.
    They already have the Yasen class which is stealthier than any stealthified surface ship and with scramjet missiles could potentially massacre carrier groups. Shore bombardment is passe? anyway, a smart enemy would just move his assets further inland and use airpower, missiles and artillery. Anyway, if by any chance they happen to have some extra money I think further improvement of Yasen class would be nice. Put some pumjet in it, make it all digital, increase automation even further, cover it with the new composite skin they are talking about, give it a satellite based targeting system. Basically most of which they are trying to do.

    Russian submarines are already capable of destroying carrier groups for quite sometime now, due in large part to Russia's large stores of advanced anti-ship missiles:




    ...As far as aircraft carriers go, Russia should have between 2-4 and no more in service at any given time, 2 for it's maritime borders. While aircraft carriers are useful, they're also highly overrated due to how expensive they are, and how they need carrier groups to protect them. The most lopsided asymmetrical fighting scenario in all of warfare is probably the aircraft carrier vs the anti-ship missile, a multi-billion dollar carrier can be taken out by $1 million anti-ship missiles, the second closest is armored vehicles vs IED's, then followed by low flying aircraft vs manpads. Russia should never go after the lofty goal of 9-to-11 aircraft carriers, I would rather prefer to see 9-to-11 Kirov class battlecruisers such as the Peter the Great, and many smaller military boats armed with most advanced missiles such as the anti-ship, cruise and sam variety.
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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers.

    Post  flamming_python on Tue Feb 04, 2014 7:56 pm

    magnumcromagnon wrote:
    collegeboy16 wrote:
    KomissarBojanchev wrote:
    Another option would be(I prefer this one) would be to build succesors of the Kirovs that can fight almost completely independently and more stealthily, and be able to kill 2-3 carriers per encounter. And install 203mm< guns fring assisted ammo on them for shore bombardment and cheap dispatch of small ships as well as some kalibrs. Much cheaper than 40 T-50s. Of course that would be putting all your eggs in 1 basket but so do carriers to a large extent and as we see today the Russians hate cheap to build specialized vessels. There is no solution.
    They already have the Yasen class which is stealthier than any stealthified surface ship and with scramjet missiles could potentially massacre carrier groups. Shore bombardment is passe? anyway, a smart enemy would just move his assets further inland and use airpower, missiles and artillery. Anyway, if by any chance they happen to have some extra money I think further improvement of Yasen class would be nice. Put some pumjet in it, make it all digital, increase automation even further, cover it with the new composite skin they are talking about, give it a satellite based targeting system. Basically most of which they are trying to do.

    ...As far as aircraft carriers go, Russia should have between 2-4 and no more in service at any given time, 2 for it's maritime borders. While aircraft carriers are useful, they're also highly overrated due to how expensive they are, and how they need carrier groups to protect them. The most lopsided asymmetrical fighting scenario in all of warfare is probably the aircraft carrier vs the anti-ship missile, a multi-billion dollar carrier can be taken out by $1 million anti-ship missiles, the second closest is armored vehicles vs IED's, then followed by low flying aircraft vs manpads. Russia should never go after the lofty goal of 9-to-11 aircraft carriers, I would rather prefer to see 9-to-11 Kirov class battlecruisers such as the Peter the Great, and many smaller military boats armed with most advanced missiles such as the anti-ship, cruise and sam variety.

    I'm sure GarryB can explain better but - 4 carriers is pretty much essential for continous coverage of 2 oceans. At any one time you can expect up to 2 of them to be in training/repair/modernisation/away visiting South America or somewhere; leaving 2 carriers ready for immediate operation - that's one per fleet; Pacific and Northern.

    Build any less carriers and you're in danger of not having one available precisely when you need it.

    So really, 4 is the optimal number if they have decided that they need a carrier group in each ocean fleet at permanent readiness.
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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers.

    Post  George1 on Tue Feb 04, 2014 10:18 pm

    flamming_python wrote:
    magnumcromagnon wrote:
    collegeboy16 wrote:
    KomissarBojanchev wrote:
    Another option would be(I prefer this one) would be to build succesors of the Kirovs that can fight almost completely independently and more stealthily, and be able to kill 2-3 carriers per encounter. And install 203mm< guns fring assisted ammo on them for shore bombardment and cheap dispatch of small ships as well as some kalibrs. Much cheaper than 40 T-50s. Of course that would be putting all your eggs in 1 basket but so do carriers to a large extent and as we see today the Russians hate cheap to build specialized vessels. There is no solution.
    They already have the Yasen class which is stealthier than any stealthified surface ship and with scramjet missiles could potentially massacre carrier groups. Shore bombardment is passe? anyway, a smart enemy would just move his assets further inland and use airpower, missiles and artillery. Anyway, if by any chance they happen to have some extra money I think further improvement of Yasen class would be nice. Put some pumjet in it, make it all digital, increase automation even further, cover it with the new composite skin they are talking about, give it a satellite based targeting system. Basically most of which they are trying to do.

    ...As far as aircraft carriers go, Russia should have between 2-4 and no more in service at any given time, 2 for it's maritime borders. While aircraft carriers are useful, they're also highly overrated due to how expensive they are, and how they need carrier groups to protect them. The most lopsided asymmetrical fighting scenario in all of warfare is probably the aircraft carrier vs the anti-ship missile, a multi-billion dollar carrier can be taken out by $1 million anti-ship missiles, the second closest is armored vehicles vs IED's, then followed by low flying aircraft vs manpads. Russia should never go after the lofty goal of 9-to-11 aircraft carriers, I would rather prefer to see 9-to-11 Kirov class battlecruisers such as the Peter the Great, and many smaller military boats armed with most advanced missiles such as the anti-ship, cruise and sam variety.

    I'm sure GarryB can explain better but - 4 carriers is pretty much essential for continous coverage of 2 oceans. At any one time you can expect up to 2 of them to be in training/repair/modernisation/away visiting South America or somewhere; leaving 2 carriers ready for immediate operation - that's one per fleet; Pacific and Northern.

    Build any less carriers and you're in danger of not having one available precisely when you need it.

    So really, 4 is the optimal number if they have decided that they need a carrier group in each ocean fleet at permanent readiness.

    i would say 5, 4 new for the fleets and Kuznetsov for training/away visiting South America or somewhere
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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers.

    Post  TR1 on Tue Feb 04, 2014 10:25 pm

    4-5 carriers?

    I hope that NEVER happens. What a money sink for Russia.

    At the very most 2, so we can have 1 constantly ready to be deployed to hot spots.
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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers.

    Post  collegeboy16 on Wed Feb 05, 2014 4:57 am

    TR1 wrote:4-5 carriers?

    I hope that NEVER happens. What a money sink for Russia.

    At the very most 2, so we can have 1 constantly ready to be deployed to hot spots.
    I agree, 2 carriers for the near future at most. They are only needed in the pacific anyway.
    The subs are already doing a great job keeping the arctic safe from intruders, plus lots
    of land bases where long-legged aircraft can take off from. The cue to make arctic aircraft carriers
    would be if the west build anything like the multipurpose Yasens, and ofc. arctic aircraft carriers
    themselves.
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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers.

    Post  GarryB on Wed Feb 05, 2014 10:18 am

    4-5 carriers?

    I hope that NEVER happens. What a money sink for Russia.

    At the very most 2, so we can have 1 constantly ready to be deployed to hot spots.

    If you want a global capable Navy then 4-5 carriers would be essential.

    "saving" money not having carriers would be like saving military spending by having an Army but not an Air Force...

    Russian carriers will not be like US Nimitz class carriers in cost and design.


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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers.

    Post  AlfaT8 on Wed Feb 05, 2014 5:01 pm

    GarryB wrote:
    4-5 carriers?

    I hope that NEVER happens. What a money sink for Russia.

    At the very most 2, so we can have 1 constantly ready to be deployed to hot spots.

    If you want a global capable Navy then 4-5 carriers would be essential.

    "saving" money not having carriers would be like saving military spending by having an Army but not an Air Force...

    Russian carriers will not be like US Nimitz class carriers in cost and design.
    So basically:
    2: Northern Fleet
    2: Pacific Fleet
    1: Black/Mediterranean sea Fleet

    Looks good, although i wonder if the Baltic Fleet would need one? scratch 
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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers.

    Post  KomissarBojanchev on Wed Feb 05, 2014 5:44 pm

    IMO all the Baltic and black sea fleets need are 10-15 littoral corvettes, 2-3 frigates, 2 ivan grens, 20 patrol boats and 15-20 diesel subs per fleet.
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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers.

    Post  Hannibal Barca on Wed Feb 05, 2014 6:28 pm

    Two big and two small carriers would be just about perfect for Russia.
    You have to add to this the heli carriers as well for a total of 8 ships.
    I would even compromise with 5 if needed.

    The point is. Should all be nuclear, with modern catapults and everything.
    Defenses and technologies is of minor importance. AC are for parades anyway.
    Just cheep, easy to build, but big with a lot of planes
    and capable of moving around fast to keep with celebration after celebration in schedule
    and with a big deck for the best parties. This is all AC are needed this days.
    If this numbers are fulfilled until 2030 everything will be right.
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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers.

    Post  TR1 on Wed Feb 05, 2014 8:40 pm

    KomissarBojanchev wrote:IMO all the Baltic and black sea fleets need are 10-15 littoral corvettes, 2-3 frigates, 2 ivan grens, 20 patrol boats and 15-20 diesel subs per fleet.

    15-20 subs?!?!?!?

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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers.

    Post  KomissarBojanchev on Wed Feb 05, 2014 10:22 pm

    In case 5-10 of them get destroyed in the first hours by some type 45s, visbys, or MEKOs(which will certainly happen)
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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers.

    Post  TR1 on Wed Feb 05, 2014 10:28 pm

    My good man, the entire Russian Navy today operates less than 20 diseal submarines.

    And you want 15-20 per fleet?

    Also, lol, you have such a poor respect for Russian subs you think 5-10 modern subs will be sunk in the FIRST HOURS?!? But those surface assets, MUCH more vulnerable, will somehow stay alive? Visby is an expensive floating 57mm platform, sooo scary to a modern sub. Have they even been fitted with an anti-sub armament yet? It took them years to even get SSMs.

    Also where you gonna find all these Type 45s in the Black Sea?

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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers.

    Post  GarryB on Thu Feb 06, 2014 7:33 am

    So basically:
    2: Northern Fleet
    2: Pacific Fleet
    1: Black/Mediterranean sea Fleet

    Looks good, although i wonder if the Baltic Fleet would need one?

    No.

    Thinking more 2 Northern and 2-3 Pacific.



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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers.

    Post  Viktor on Sun Feb 09, 2014 3:39 pm

    Nice  thumbsup 


    Neva Design Bureau on its own initiative develops projects three types of aircraft carriers for the Russian Navy


    CEO Nevsky PKB Sergey Vlasov wrote:Neva PKB is developing a light, medium and heavy aircraft carriers for the Russian Navy in the initiative order. These works will allow to quickly proceed to design an aircraft carrier of the selected type, if so decided by the government

    Vlasov said the new carrier can be equipped with an electromagnetic catapult. "I think if we create a new aircraft carrier, and its creation would take about 10 years, during this time, may establish and catapult" - believes CEO.

    The cost of new light Russian aircraft carrier will be approximately 100-130 billion rubles., Heavy - 200-280 billion rubles
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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers.

    Post  sepheronx on Mon Feb 10, 2014 4:55 am

    That is still $3B for 1 aircraft carrier, being light carrier that is still a lot of money.  Wouldn't Russia be better off with LHC's instead?  But regardless, I can see them building the light ones, a few of them.

    TR1 wrote:My good man, the entire Russian Navy today operates less than 20 diseal submarines.

    And you want 15-20 per fleet?

    Also, lol, you have such a poor respect for Russian subs you think 5-10 modern subs will be sunk in the FIRST HOURS?!? But those surface assets, MUCH more vulnerable, will somehow stay alive? Visby is an expensive floating 57mm platform, sooo scary to a modern sub. Have they even been fitted with an anti-sub armament yet? It took them years to even get SSMs.

    Also where you gonna find all these Type 45s in the Black Sea?


    Which is a shame that they only have that many left. More Improved Kilo's should really be purchased. Unless Lada will end up coming out. But regardless, Submarines are very important and useful for modern sea/ocean warfare and coastal defense.
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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers.

    Post  Flyingdutchman on Mon Feb 10, 2014 7:56 am

    I think the best option is 3 medium aircraft carriers 1 in the northern fleet and 2 in the pacific fleet.
    With growing tensions almost everywhere in the south they really need some aircraft carriers!
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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers.

    Post  GarryB on Mon Feb 10, 2014 10:14 am

    Wouldn't Russia be better off with LHC's instead?

    The primary use of a carrier is air cover/air support/air surveillance and you don't really get that from a helicopter carrier.

    You need fixed wing aircraft and catapults for heavier aircraft like AWACS and AEW aircraft.

    If they give the Kuznetsov a decent upgrade they could certainly get by with building just 3 new carriers...


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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers.

    Post  TR1 on Mon Feb 10, 2014 10:15 am

    Flyingdutchman wrote:I think the best option is 3 medium aircraft carriers 1 in the northern fleet and 2 in the pacific fleet.
    With growing tensions almost everywhere in the south they really need some aircraft carriers!

    Why?

    Why does Russia really need some carriers?
    For what tensions?
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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers.

    Post  Flyingdutchman on Mon Feb 10, 2014 10:34 am

    Russia needs aircraft carriers because the subs of the northern fleet need aviation.
    There are Some tensions between china and japan, phillipines, Vietnam etc.

    But was not a good reason because russia Doesnt care.
    And they shouldnt!

    But i still think they need Some good AC to keep Up with other navies.

    I think china now has a better navy then Russia.
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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers.

    Post  TR1 on Mon Feb 10, 2014 10:37 am

    Better in what way? China's submarine fleet is nowhere near as potent. It's fleet lacks in many core capabilities. Of course it also has many more newer ships than the Runavy...but so what? China's navy is of little concern to Russia. In fact, the more China spends on its navy, the better for Russia, from a security standpoint.

    Northern fleet needs aviation why? Russia has the longest ranged fighters in the world, they can do fine for its purposes.

    As you can tell, I am not particularly in favor of carriers. Not when other priorities need to be met first.

    Kuznetsov with new propulsion and MiG-29Ks is enough for me for now.
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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers.

    Post  Flyingdutchman on Mon Feb 10, 2014 12:03 pm

    TR1 wrote:Better in what way? China's submarine fleet is nowhere near as potent. It's fleet lacks in many core capabilities. Of course it also has many more newer ships than the Runavy...but so what? China's navy is of little concern to Russia. In fact, the more China spends on its navy, the better for Russia, from a security standpoint.

    Northern fleet needs aviation why? Russia has the longest ranged fighters in the world, they can do fine for its purposes.

    As you can tell, I am not particularly in favor of carriers. Not when other priorities need to be met first.

    Kuznetsov with new propulsion and MiG-29Ks is enough for me for now.

    The surface fleet of china is better then the russian navy for sure but About the sub fleet no country has a better submarine fleet then russia Thats for sure to!
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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers.

    Post  GarryB on Tue Feb 11, 2014 9:40 am

    I could care less whether China has or has not got a "better navy".

    Russia needs carriers because her navy needs air power to grow and expand and reach her full potential.

    I do however also agree that for now the K is good enough... Russia doesn't have the support structure or support ships to operate 4 carriers now.

    A serious upgrade to the K however is needed and over the next two decades they need to plan and put into service two more carriers... Don't rush them, don't make them super carriers able to kill everything and anything expensive stealthy white elephants.

    Make them cheap practical useful vessels that carry aircraft to expand the sight and reach of the surface fleet and offer an extra layer of protection for surface and subsurface units.

    Air power is a critical force multiplier for the Navy (and Army).


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