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    Future russian aircraft carriers.

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    Sukhoi37_Terminator
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    Russian aircraft carriers:

    Post  Sukhoi37_Terminator on Wed Nov 04, 2009 7:38 pm

    In 1992, Ul'yanovsk, Minsk, and Leningrad were scrapped; Novorossiysk followed in 1993, and Kiev finally went in 1994. Moskva remained as the nominal flagship of the Black Sea Fleet until late 1995, when she was towed to the scrappers, as well. Admiral Gorshkov has been sold to India in 2004or conversion into a STOBAR carrier to be named INS Vikramaditya.
    Varyag has been sold to China.
    So the Admiral Kuznetsov is the only russian aircraft carrier in service. USA has currently 12 aircraft carriers and Great Britan 3. Russia showed no interest in aircraft carriers. The future of Russian aircraft carriers, at least in the near-term, looks rather bleak. The temptation to focus on submarine development, an area in which the Russian Navy has considerably more experience, must be great. the mission of the aircraft carrier has changed; no longer does it fulfill the Soviet mission of fleet support, but rather is intended to provide "'political presence' in forward areas
    So what will be the place of the aircraft carrier in the Russian navy? will the Kutznesov continue to be russia`s only aircraft carrier?

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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers.

    Post  Vladimir79 on Wed Nov 04, 2009 8:49 pm

    The future of Russian carriers doesn't look so bleak. We are buying Mistrals so we can get the shipyard upgrades to build them.

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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers.

    Post  Russian Patriot on Sun Nov 08, 2009 7:04 pm

    I don't think Moskva was scrapped..

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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers.

    Post  sepheronx on Sun Nov 08, 2009 8:15 pm

    Russian Patriot wrote:I don't think Moskva was scrapped..

    No, it isn't getting scrapped, but re-fitted/re-furbished.

    Russia (in this case, the USSR) relied on the Ukranian naval facilitie in the black sea in order to create aircraft carriers. Unfortunately, with the turn of Ukranian government and the unfortunate demise of most of her weapon building facilities, the old shipyard is pretty much gone. That is why Russia is planning on buying the Mistral. I highly doubt they need the Mistral or its capabilities, but they need the facilities built in order to get other major ships out in the water.

    Instead of the high R&D cost in developing the infrastructure, you are just better off getting the technology transfered to you and the facility pretty much built for you, and use the extra funds to start R&D new ships to come out of those facilities.

    Maybe the Mistral deal will aid the St Petersburg ship building plant and the Northeastern facility in Russia.

    (Mistral is also good for quick reliefe and or transportation of ground troops with CAS support in a conflict zone. So maybe Russia does have use for a Mistral type ship).

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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers.

    Post  Stealthflanker on Mon Nov 09, 2009 6:19 am

    hmm I heard Kuznetsov aircraft Carrier's electronic suites includes some form of "AEGIS system" centered on a phased array RADAR named "Mars Passat" or Sky Watch ...anybody know the fate of this RADAR now ? is it removed as what i heard on internet forums like keypublishing or did it stil on service ?

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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers.

    Post  sepheronx on Mon Nov 09, 2009 6:29 am

    Russia will do something as it will be forced to do something. What I am getting at is that the Kuznetsov will be obselete sometime and will have to be replaced. If Russia goes to Pocket Carriers (something that can carry around 30 fixed wing aircrafts) and use smaller aircrafts (about the size of an F-16), they can carry a little more then 30 (so I would say about 40,000T displacement), then all this can still be used for political reason and or defense. Russia does not need a large fleet like that, nor does USA for that instance (but they use it cause they are not connected to Europe, so they have to transport those planes somehow). What Russia will probably do is compete more with UK in terms of 3-6 carriers, and they will be stationed in bases in various countries whom have parternship with Russia.

    Can these or American carriers be destroyed? Oh yes, easily enough (at least for Russia and China, yes). Are they expensive? Yes and No, Brazil was capable of building one. Are they usefull? Not much in todays world, but still can provide some sort of support in a small conflict.

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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers.

    Post  Vladimir79 on Mon Nov 09, 2009 7:39 am

    Brazil built a carrier?? You mean bought a French carrier...

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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers.

    Post  sepheronx on Tue Nov 10, 2009 10:40 pm

    Vladimir79 wrote:Brazil built a carrier?? You mean bought a French carrier...

    Whatever. Point being is that they where able to afford it, so anyone is capable of affording one.

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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers.

    Post  Sukhoi37_Terminator on Wed Nov 11, 2009 8:09 pm

    Whatever. Point being is that they where able to afford it, so anyone is capable of affording one.[/quote]

    Yes, every G20 member with an GDP of 1.994 trillion dollars.

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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers.

    Post  Vladimir79 on Thu Nov 12, 2009 12:28 am

    sepheronx wrote:

    Whatever. Point being is that they where able to afford it, so anyone is capable of affording one.

    Whatever? The point being is they were getting ready to scrap it, and Brazil decided to buy it for a prestige piece. Its combat value is nill.

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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers.

    Post  sepheronx on Sun Nov 15, 2009 10:50 am

    Vladimir79 wrote:
    Whatever? The point being is they were getting ready to scrap it, and Brazil decided to buy it for a prestige piece. Its combat value is nill.

    As long as it can transport aircrafts to proper designation, then it isn't useless.

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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers.

    Post  Russian Patriot on Sun Nov 15, 2009 9:01 pm

    sepheronx wrote:
    Vladimir79 wrote:
    Whatever? The point being is they were getting ready to scrap it, and Brazil decided to buy it for a prestige piece. Its combat value is nill.

    As long as it can transport aircrafts to proper designation, then it isn't useless.


    I have to agree with that.

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    Russian aircraft carrier blueprint to be ready by yearend - Navy chief

    Post  Russian Patriot on Wed Aug 04, 2010 10:23 pm



    Russian aircraft carrier blueprint to be ready by yearend - Navy chief

    RIA Novosti

    14:15 02/08/2010

    MOSCOW, August 2 (RIA Novosti) - A technical design for a new-generation aircraft carrier will be ready by the end of the year, the head of the Russian Navy said on Monday.

    In an interview with RIA Novosti, Adm. Vladimir Vysotsky said several organizations were working on the warship's design, including the Severnoye and the Nevskoye design bureaus.

    He said it was too early to say what the new aircraft carrier will look like or what its specifications will be.

    "Not even with regard to its displacement. The designers have been given a number of requirements. If they manage to pack everything into a matchbox, they are welcome," he said.

    Some Navy experts believe the future aircraft carrier will be nuclear-powered with a displacement of 50,000-60,000 tons.

    The admiral said the Russian Navy needs carrier battle groups.

    "If, for example, we do not have an aircraft carrier in the North, the battle capability of the Northern Fleet's guided-missile submarines will be reduced to zero after Day One because the submarines' principal adversary is aviation," he said.

    Vysotsky stressed that a special state program was needed for an aircraft carrier to be built.

    http://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/library/news/russia/2010/russia-100802-rianovosti03.htm

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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers.

    Post  Vladimir79 on Thu Aug 05, 2010 1:19 am

    Russian Patriot wrote:
    The admiral said the Russian Navy needs carrier battle groups.

    "If, for example, we do not have an aircraft carrier in the North, the battle capability of the Northern Fleet's guided-missile submarines will be reduced to zero after Day One because the submarines' principal adversary is aviation," he said.

    I am pretty sick of these relic flag officers left over with nothing but CCCP ideas. An aircraft carrier's primary purpose is not to provide air cover for submarines a few hundred km off the coast. It is for power projection. Admiral K will be out of commission for five years, so we better get used to the idea of not having a carrier and come up with one that has power projection in mind.

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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers.

    Post  GarryB on Thu Aug 05, 2010 3:29 am

    In addition to power projection a carrier adds range both in sight and claw.
    It means there is another ring around a naval group so that that naval group can see and attack if necessary at long range.
    Look at any land based air defence, you have short range guns and missiles, medium range missiles and long range missiles. With radars/sensors you have short, medium, and long range sensors too. Lifting those sensors and missiles into an aircraft greatly increases effective range of sight and reach and the further from you that you can engage a threat the safer you are.
    The earlier you detect incoming missiles or aircraft or both the easier it is to defeat them.
    The biggest threat is always the mass attack to overwhelm a strong defence.
    The best response to a mass attack is to layer the defence and add as many effective layers as possible.
    Airpower adds a huge layer of detection and response.
    As you mention Vlad, airpower also adds a strike capability option in addition to just firing cruise missiles you can also send in aircraft, but it is also about having aircraft to defend the battle group when in hostile waters.
    Vlad you are quite right that what this guy said was stupid... a missile sub... a boomer will be hiding and waiting for a launch signal and most can remain in Russian waters to deliver their weapons to targets. Anti ship subs with missiles will likely seek out surface vessels and launch their weapons ASAP so the threat of airpower will be minimal unless they get things very wrong.

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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers.

    Post  Austin on Wed Aug 11, 2010 1:01 pm

    Vladimir79 wrote:
    Russian Patriot wrote:
    The admiral said the Russian Navy needs carrier battle groups.

    "If, for example, we do not have an aircraft carrier in the North, the battle capability of the Northern Fleet's guided-missile submarines will be reduced to zero after Day One because the submarines' principal adversary is aviation," he said.

    I am pretty sick of these relic flag officers left over with nothing but CCCP ideas. An aircraft carrier's primary purpose is not to provide air cover for submarines a few hundred km off the coast. It is for power projection. Admiral K will be out of commission for five years, so we better get used to the idea of not having a carrier and come up with one that has power projection in mind.

    Well you can use an Aircraft Carrier for power projection ,Air Defence for CBG as part of defensive and a 500 km CAP.

    What the Admiral means is without a CAP deterrent an enemy ASW like P-8 will be able to hunt down his submarine in co-ordination with the enemy submarine more effectively.

    Offensive Power projection is one of the role of Aircraft Carrie , Defensive CAP and long range Aircover is another.

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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers.

    Post  GarryB on Thu Aug 12, 2010 4:08 am

    With the increasing abundance of active radar homing SAMs and AAMs you'd think there would come a time when subs are fitted with SAMs that can be fired from under the water at aircraft.

    Perhaps fitting an Akula (TYPHOON) class sub with hundreds of vertical launch S-400 type missiles and perhaps even some S-500 missiles as well as torpedos to defend itself it could be the air defence vessel in an SSBN "group".
    The concentration of subs makes sense in the same way that ship convoys make sense, if they can defend themselves for surface ships (ie SSGNs and SSNs) and aircraft (AKULA Mod). Most aircraft that are a threat are large slow MPAs, or helos. Former can be dealt with SAMs and the latter could be dealt with MANPADS.

    A carrier and surface group would be more flexible however.

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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers.

    Post  Vladimir79 on Thu Aug 12, 2010 4:39 am

    You don't put long range SAMs on a submarine. Carrying Igla is a bad enough idea. If you come to the point where you have to surface to shoot down your hunter, you have already lost.

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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers.

    Post  Austin on Thu Aug 12, 2010 4:08 pm

    They are toying with the idea of submerged submarine launched SAM guided by fibre optic cable , that still needs some input on the general bearing of the target aircraft

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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers.

    Post  GarryB on Fri Aug 13, 2010 1:25 am

    You don't put long range SAMs on a submarine. Carrying Igla is a bad enough idea. If you come to the point where you have to surface to shoot down your hunter, you have already lost.

    I don't mean sail around on the surface pretending to be a ship.
    I was thinking more of SAMs that could be launched from a submerged sub for the MANPADS as a defence against Helos and ship based ASW aircraft.
    For the longer range SAMs I was thinking of Satellites tracking aircraft and Submerged subs firing long and ultralong range SAMs to engage them.

    Of course I think there are much more interesting things you could do with the Akulas, like mothership for mini subs and UUVs (unmanned underwater vehicles), or even as a rescue sub mothership.

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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers.

    Post  GarryB on Fri Aug 13, 2010 1:34 am

    They are toying with the idea of submerged submarine launched SAM guided by fibre optic cable , that still needs some input on the general bearing of the target aircraft

    OK how about this... a three stage missile with a solid rocket first stage to get airborne and flying, which falls away after launch with the second stage with a jet engine and wings that allows the missile to fly in large circles for fairly long periods with this seeker in the missile nose:

    http://www.missiles.ru/_foto/UVS-TECH-2010_foto/_MG_8152.jpg

    from this page:

    http://www.missiles.ru/UVS-TECH-2010_foto.htm

    This active radar homing seeker has an array of passive radar sensors that can detect radar emissions from 200km and also a central main active radar sensor that can detect a 3m^2 target at 20km, this would certainly be enough to find and defeat carrier based AWACs platforms... especially when fitted to an S-500 class missile that might have a flight range of up to 600km in addition to its range with winged turbojet stage...

    Obviously this is all fantasy made up by me, but 200 years ago heavier than air flight was fantasy too.

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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers.

    Post  Austin on Fri Aug 13, 2010 3:04 am

    The German missile IDAS is one such system under development

    IDAS missile

    IDAS is designed to allow a submerged submarine to attack an anti-submarine warfare helicopter (which is particularly vulnerable when it is deployed in a hover operating its active dipping sonar), or slow-flying maritime patrol aircraft.

    http://www.diehl-bgt-defence.de/index.php?id=564&L=1

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    No New Russian Aircraft Carriers Until After 2020

    Post  Vladimir79 on Fri Dec 10, 2010 8:55 pm

    By DMITRY ZAKS, AGENCE FRANCE-PRESSE
    Published: 10 Dec 2010 13:24


    MOSCOW - The Russian military admitted Dec. 10 that it lacked the funds to deploy a powerful new armada of aircraft carriers as promised and that no more would be built for at least another decade.

    "The state armaments program for 2011-2020 does not envision the construction of aircraft carriers," an unnamed senior official in Russia's defense ministry told the Interfax news agency.

    He said current funding plans allowed the military to come up with new designs but not proceed with actual construction.

    "Only then - after completing the advanced designs - can we examine the expediency of building aircraft carriers," the official said.

    The comments represent a rare public admission that the military was struggling to keep up with President Dmitry Medvedev's commitment to modernize an outdated Soviet-era force that has lost its dominance on the high seas.

    The Interfax dispatch seemed to produce initial confusion among the top commanders. It was denied by one unnamed official and received with blanket silence by the defense ministry itself.

    But Defense Minister Anatoly Serdyukov later conceded that the Interfax report was true.

    "No, there are no plans" to build carriers by 2020, Serdyukov told the state-run RIA Novosti news agency.

    The former Soviet Union had five aircraft carriers at the height of its power but Russia currently only has one, Admiral Kuznetsov.

    This compares to the United States' 11 operational and six reserve aircraft carriers, and the U.S. has another three under construction, according to the U.S. Congressional Research Service.

    Medvedev made his country's re-emergence as a naval power one of the planks of a new military policy that he announced with much fanfare in October 2008.

    "We are not going to spare our financial resources," Medvedev said while attending exercises in the Barents Sea.

    Navy Cmdr. Adm. Vladimir Vysotsky said that same year that Russia intended to build six new aircraft carriers - three each for its Pacific and Northern Fleets.

    Various commanders at the same time suggested that Russia may expand its naval presence to the Red Sea and perhaps even deploy a new base in Libya.

    But naval concerns appeared to be put on the back burner as Russia entered a heated round of nuclear arms negotiations with the United States that hinged on a U.S. proposal to deploy a new missile defense shield in Europe.

    Russia fears that the systems could either be turned into an offensive weapon or expanded to neutralize the country's existing arsenal of nuclear arms.

    The military has therefore focused on new missile development and testing of its next-generation ICBM.

    Medvedev unexpectedly returned to the issue last month by conceding that Russia remained at a tremendous disadvantage to Western powers because of its lack of foreign bases.

    He admitted that Russia was forced to follow the "very expensive and completely inefficient" system of supporting all major sea operations with a fleet of refueling ships.

    An unnamed defense ministry official said Dec. 10 that Russia needed to have at least four aircraft carriers to be considered a truly functioning power at sea.

    "The defense ministry will not give up on this idea," the official told RIA Novosti.

    http://www.defensenews.com/story.php?i=5208837&c=EUR&s=SEA

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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers.

    Post  GarryB on Sat Dec 11, 2010 3:57 am

    I must say I am pleased.

    First of all I support the idea of the Russian navy having carriers and for them to be genuine power projection tools there is a minimum of 6 needed. A carrier operates in cycles and a carrier in service needs overhauls, training, and to be operational and when it is doing one it is not ready for the other two. Russia having 6 carriers will mean two carriers operationally ready all the time... one in the Pacific and one in the Northern fleet say.
    Of the other four carriers two will be in routine overhaul, with either maintainence or upgrade every few overhauls and two will be in training. In an emergency the two in training could be deployed for short periods too.

    To operate carriers however you need a capable navy with a good logistics chain and bases all over the place to support operations and Russia really doesn't have that yet.

    By 2020 however they will be in much better shape to look into such things.

    Why carriers?

    Airpower, whether manned or unmanned have huge advantages at sea. It exponentially extends the eyes of the fleet and exponentially extends the claws of the fleet too.

    Any group of ships can be overwhelmed if you fire enough missiles at them. The defence at sea against that is the same as on land... layered defences of short, medium, and long range SAMs, plus fighter cover as well. A fighter aircraft can approach an unknown and identify it as friend or foe and can escort it from the area. This is not something a radar or SAM can do. If the contact turns out to be an enemy aircraft then that fighter can alert the fleet and attempt to deal with the problem itself. If it turns out to be a Boeing in civilian markings then that is important too.

    Aircraft not only extend the sight and reach of a naval group they also add a layer to the air defences that extends beyond even the new generation of missiles like the 400km range S-400 models.

    By 2020 Russia will have decided what to do with its older large vessels like the Kirov class and Slava class vessels and also decided about new large vessels too.

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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers.

    Post  Vladimir79 on Sat Dec 11, 2010 4:43 am

    I am certainly not surprised by the announcement. I knew the state of USC was nowhere ready to begin building such structures. It is another of a long line of announcements made that goes undone. GOZ also has no mention of funding new missile cruisers so Kirovs will undoubtedly be upgraded. Unless of course we really are headed for a brown water navy.

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