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    PAK-DA: News

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    GunshipDemocracy

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    Re: PAK-DA: News

    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Thu Nov 08, 2018 8:08 pm

    Isos wrote:
    I'm not talking about the numbers but about how they cried all over the web they have pak-da in dev for years while this article says they only started now.

    Blame journos ;-) Officially they first (in 2014 AFAIR) wanted to have prototype in 2019 but since then plans radically changed. IMHO there are at least 2 reasons:

    a) Bombers are needed "now" (US is getting more and more unstable and trying t kill Russia as opponent). Thus to no need to risking schedule postponement for years in case of failure first iteration.

    b) First production lines have to be rebuild people trained.

    Avionics will be the same for both AFAIK
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    Hole

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    Re: PAK-DA: News

    Post  Hole on Thu Nov 08, 2018 9:36 pm

    Development is not only putting carbon fibre panels together. I bet there were many virtual projects of this bomber in the last few years that were examined by the air force.
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    SeigSoloyvov

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    Re: PAK-DA: News

    Post  SeigSoloyvov on Thu Nov 08, 2018 10:17 pm

    Hole wrote:Development is not only putting carbon fibre panels together. I bet there were many virtual projects of this bomber in the last few years that were examined by the air force.

    What you are talking about would be called the Detailed Design phase not a development stage, all development stages are completed before The preliminary design because that is the stage before they move from paper to reality and start shaping materials and putting things together and after they do that then they move onto manufacturability stage which is where they construct prototypes and test in various ways and AFTER that they would move onto the mass production stage completing the project.
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    eehnie

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    Re: PAK-DA: News

    Post  eehnie on Thu Nov 08, 2018 10:32 pm

    SeigSoloyvov wrote:
    Hole wrote:Development is not only putting carbon fibre panels together. I bet there were many virtual projects of this bomber in the last few years that were examined by the air force.

    What you are talking about would be called the Detailed Design phase not a development stage, all development stages are completed before The preliminary design because that is the stage before they move from paper to reality and start shaping materials and putting things together and after they do that then they move onto manufacturability stage which is where they construct prototypes and test in various ways and AFTER that they would move onto the mass production stage completing the project.

    Hole is right. Many proposals have been explored until to complete the preliminary design. In fact in this same topic there are links to news that talk about a preliminary design completed by 2014. Since then until now very likely Tupolev and the UAC explored with the Russian Ministry of Defense many improvements.

    After the preliminary design there a stage of technical design, or technical project, in which the work on prototypes is included.

    If the aircraft begins a new stage now, is this one of technical design or technical project, and to begin this stage, is required the approval of the Ministry of Defense for the previous work, called preliminary design.
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    SeigSoloyvov

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    Re: PAK-DA: News

    Post  SeigSoloyvov on Thu Nov 08, 2018 10:41 pm

    eehnie wrote:
    SeigSoloyvov wrote:
    Hole wrote:Development is not only putting carbon fibre panels together. I bet there were many virtual projects of this bomber in the last few years that were examined by the air force.

    What you are talking about would be called the Detailed Design phase not a development stage, all development stages are completed before The preliminary design because that is the stage before they move from paper to reality and start shaping materials and putting things together and after they do that then they move onto manufacturability stage which is where they construct prototypes and test in various ways and AFTER that they would move onto the mass production stage completing the project.

    Hole is right. Many proposals have been explored until to complete the preliminary design. In fact in this same topic there are links to news that talk about a preliminary design completed by 2014. Since then until now very likely Tupolev and the UAC explored with the Russian Ministry of Defense many improvements.

    After the preliminary design there a stage of technical design, or technical project, in which the work on prototypes is included.

    If the aircraft begins a new stage now, is this one of technical design or technical project, and to begin this stage, is required the approval of the Ministry of Defense for the previous work, called preliminary design.

    Some guys saying it will be completed by 2014 means nothing it wasn't done by 2014 and that is clear. you have any idea how many times Russia has said this will be done by this date or this will be done by that date only for it to turn out to be a load of crap? tons of times and thats fact.

    Again I don't deal with what if's but reality going by the link YOU POSTED they are not past, or at the preliminary design phase if they are developing yet that means they are still in the paperwork phase.

    Has for the rest of your comment, I literally just said after the PD stage they move onto prototypes construction, I have no idea why you repeated what I said after you quoted me.
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    eehnie

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    Re: PAK-DA: News

    Post  eehnie on Fri Nov 09, 2018 5:49 pm

    http://www.russiadefence.net/t2625p700-pak-da-news#215803

    A few words about the PAK-DA bomber project

    The magazine Air & Cosmos gives interesting information about the project of the new Russian bomber PAK DA. So, it is reported that the competition for its creation was announced in 2007, the winner of which was the Tupolev Design Bureau in August 2009. The KB has signed a three-year contract with the Ministry of Defense of Russia on the R & D "Messenger". Within the framework of the research project of the Design Bureau, Tupolev prepared a draft "product 80", approved in the spring of 2013. On December 23, 2013, the UAC for its part signed a contract for a technical project of PAK DA, which was approved in 2016.



    Product 80 is a "flying wing" takeoff weight of 145 tons and a payload of 30 tons. PAK DA is almost twice as light as Tu-160 and is located between Tu-22M3 and Tu-95MS. Tu-160 weighs 275 tons, Tu-95MS 185 tons and Tu-22M3 weighs 124 tons. The head of long-range aviation Anatoly Yakovlev said that the PAK DA will be a plane created according to the "flying wing" scheme with subsonic speed and a range of 15,000 km without refueling. The aircraft will be equipped with two engines "Product of the Russian Federation" with a thrust of 23 tons, created on the basis of the engine NK-32-02 ("product P"). The company ODK-Kuznetsov began its development in December 2014.

    During a press conference in December 2014, Anatoly Yakovlev said that the prototype PAK DA will take off in 2019, and the aircraft will go to the combat units in 2023-2025. However, in 2015 the idea of ​​resuming production of the Tu-160M2 was accelerated and the PAK DA program was postponed to a later date. Deputy Defense Minister Yuri Borisov said that because of the Tu-160M2 program, the PAK DA project "will be postponed somewhat." It can be assumed that the plans for PAK DA have shifted to the right about five years.

    https://bmpd.livejournal.com/3088125.html

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Since then, it is logical that some improvements have been introduced, in order to underperform not the modernized variants of the Tu-160 and Tu-22.

    The project would be to begin the phase of technical project.
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    GarryB

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    Re: PAK-DA: News

    Post  GarryB on Sat Nov 10, 2018 2:55 pm

    I'm not talking about the numbers but about how they cried all over the web they have pak-da in dev for years while this article says they only started now.

    They have clearly finalised the design requirements... ie the speed, the layout, the expected RCS, the range, the payload, the onboard sensors, the crew size and location etc etc.

    And have likely decided on a planform and basic design to base the prototype on so now they will likely start building prototypes based on scale models they have been no doubt testing in wind tunnels and radar chambers to test RCS and aerodynamic performance to work out the final shape and get some prototypes flying to test to make sure the results confirm what the computer models likely suggested in terms of performance.

    They wont start serial production until at least 2025 when the factories currently engaged in building new Tu-160s are less busy...

    this will be done by that date only for it to turn out to be a load of crap? tons of times and thats fact.

    Which makes them pretty much the same as any other military on the planet...

    Has for the rest of your comment, I literally just said after the PD stage they move onto prototypes construction, I have no idea why you repeated what I said after you quoted me.

    They have finalised the design and layout and now will make prototypes... what is the big deal?

    They have already said the decision to put the Blackjack back into production reduces the urgency in getting a replacement bomber into service so the introduction dates for the PAK DA can be delayed.

    The magazine Air & Cosmos ...

    I doubt they will derate the NK-32 down to 23 tons thrust when it currently generates 25 tons of thrust...

    I would suspect the development in engine technology since the 1970s would allow a decent increase in performance in terms of fuel efficiency and thrust....
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    Hole

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    Re: PAK-DA: News

    Post  Hole on Sat Nov 10, 2018 4:32 pm

    It seems logical to produce the Tu-160M2 and the PAK-DA simultaneously between 2025 and 2030. Production of the Tu-160M2 will be in full swing in 2025 and the PAK-DA could join in with one plane being produced in the first year and than gradually rising to full production in 2030 when the production of the Tu-160M2 will start do wind down.
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    SeigSoloyvov

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    Re: PAK-DA: News

    Post  SeigSoloyvov on Sat Nov 10, 2018 8:24 pm

    They are not making prototypes where the heck are you getting that idea?.

    That would be all over the news, so don't start saying they are making prototypes because they aren't.

    Whenever they finish the Pd stage they will not they aren't at that point yet , shockingly -insert sarcasm-
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    eehnie

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    Re: PAK-DA: News

    Post  eehnie on Sun Nov 11, 2018 3:01 pm

    Like every article, the article is significantly more credible in the part talking about the past, about the contracts signed and about the history of the project, than about projections toward the future.

    Since the decission of modernizing the Tu-160 with a return to the production was made, is very likely that a stage of modification and improvement of the initial project was opned.
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    Isos

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    Re: PAK-DA: News

    Post  Isos on Sun Nov 11, 2018 3:42 pm


    I doubt they will derate the NK-32 down to 23 tons thrust when it currently generates 25 tons of thrust...

    Why ? Pak-da according to the article is twice as light as tu-160. Being subsonic, no need lot of power to reach more than mach 1, the main issue is to make it able to fly 15 000km as wanted so reducing power increase range.
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    magnumcromagnon

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    Re: PAK-DA: News

    Post  magnumcromagnon on Sun Nov 11, 2018 5:35 pm

    Isos wrote:

    I doubt they will derate the NK-32 down to 23 tons thrust when it currently generates 25 tons of thrust...

    Why ? Pak-da according to the article is twice as light as tu-160. Being subsonic, no need lot of power to reach more than mach 1, the main issue is to make it able to fly 15 000km as wanted so reducing power increase range.

    I've never heard of anyone ever making a new generation of engines for strategic aircraft intentionally weaker than previous generation. If anything their making a high by-pass version of NK-32, which means their trading high exhaust speed for pure thrust. You don't seem to know what your talking about, intentionally making the NK-32 high-bypass means greater payload capacity and range (at the expense of supersonic speed), it will likely have thrust greater than 25 tons not less. Besides the 15,000 km range has already been achieved by the Tu-95 series, if anything it has to be exceeded because the PAK-DA will likely have the advantage of a blended wing-body design, the use of winglets, the use of 3D-printed composite materials and shape memory alloys, the use of Continuous Climb and Descent Operations, a modernized Flexible Navigation System, as well as placing the engines above the chassis near the vertical tail (both to reduce drag and RCS).


    The advantages of a blended wing body (BWB):

    https://www.nasa.gov/centers/langley/news/factsheets/FS-2003-11-81-LaRC.html




    The advantages of winglets:

    https://www.grc.nasa.gov/www/k-12/airplane/winglets.html




    The advantages of 3D shape memory alloys:

    https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1877705814037710




    The advantages of Continuous Climb and Descent Operations:

    https://www.skybrary.aero/index.php/Continuous_Climb_Operations_(CCO)




    The advantages of a Flexible Navigation System:

    https://web.stanford.edu/group/scpnt/jse_website/documents/Enge-Aviation_Benefits_from_GNSS.pdf


    The advantages of engines above the chassis near the vertical tail:



    https://www.hq.nasa.gov/office/aero/pdf/wahls_2_green_aviation_summit.pdf

    http://www.aurora.aero/d8/
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    Isos

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    Re: PAK-DA: News

    Post  Isos on Sun Nov 11, 2018 5:59 pm

    I'm not expert at all in engines. I was just pointing that tu-160 is supersonic so its engines are adaptated to its function. Pak-da is suppose to be subsonic and 2 times lighter so using engines made for a supersonic plane isn't the best idea. It's not making weaker engines but adaptated engines.
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    GunshipDemocracy

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    Re: PAK-DA: News

    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Sun Nov 11, 2018 6:00 pm

    magnumcromagnon wrote:
    I've never heard of anyone ever making a new generation of engines for strategic aircraft intentionally weaker than previous generation. If anything their making a high by-pass version of NK-32, which means their trading high exhaust speed for pure thrust.


    They say "on basis" what it IMHO quite broad term.  Thrust of 23 tons   is actuallyan enormous increase !.  
    NK32 has 137kN thrust and 245kN with afterburner.  

    New model is supposed to have 23tons vs 14 tons w/o afterburner...



     PAK DA doesn't need afterburner. PAK-DA needs fuel economy and low exhaust temp
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    GarryB

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    Re: PAK-DA: News

    Post  GarryB on Tue Nov 13, 2018 5:28 am

    They were talking about making a geared high bypass turbofan based on the NK-32 for use in large subsonic aircraft... including to upgrade the An-124, but to also build twin, four engine, and 6 engined transports in the capacity of 80-90 tons payload, 150 tons, and 250 tons respectively, and also for a subsonic flying wing PAK DA.

    The NK-32 itself would be upgraded too and used in the Tu-160M2 and Tu-22M3M.

    But external engine mounts are not stealthy and high bypass turbofan engines would improve long range cruise performance....

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