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    PAK-DA: News

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    eehnie

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    Re: PAK-DA: News

    Post  eehnie on Wed Oct 31, 2018 3:27 pm

    The range of the Kinzhal missile from the Tu-PAK-DA need not to tie the range from the the MiG-31 or from the MiG-41. Interceptors always wil have advantage on speed, but shorter overall range.

    My comment is more in the line of signaling how the range of the Kinzhal missile from a subsonic Tu-PAK-DA would underperfrom the range of the Kinzhal used from the Tu-22 or the Tu-160.

    This would be the real problem. A subsonic Tu-PAK-DA would tend to underperform the service of the Tu-160 and the Tu-22 on this and on other features, something negative. As commented many times here by Mindstorm and myself, the use of the Tu-PAK-DA would be risker than the use of the Tu-22 and the Tu-160. It also is reflected in the comment of Garry B that I quoted, despite to be not done for this case.

    I do not expect a subsonic Tu-PAK-DA to succeed in competence with the Tu-160 and the Tu-22. And logically, I do not expect the Tu-PAK-DA to be subsonic.
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    LMFS

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    Re: PAK-DA: News

    Post  LMFS on Wed Oct 31, 2018 4:20 pm

    GunshipDemocracy wrote:Zircon is not airborne. GZUR is to be.
    Do you know for sure no air-launched version will be deployed?

    Not Iskander tho. As for trejctory control there are gas rudders or control flaps.
    What do you mean exactly?
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    GunshipDemocracy

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    Re: PAK-DA: News

    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Wed Oct 31, 2018 4:27 pm

    LMFS wrote:
    GunshipDemocracy wrote:Zircon is not airborne. GZUR is to be.
    Do you know for sure no air-launched version will be deployed?

    GZUR is airborne only and is relatively light (1,6tons) and short (<5m). Its range is to be 1,500km. Why to invest in second heavier missile with same  characteristics? Perhaps tech will b related but unlikely there will be two parallel  missile lines.


    LMFS wrote:
    Not Iskander tho. As for trejctory control there are gas rudders or control flaps.
    What do you mean exactly?
    [/quote]

    Iskander is one stage missile Never heard about jettisoning engine in 1 stage missiles.
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    LMFS

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    Re: PAK-DA: News

    Post  LMFS on Wed Oct 31, 2018 5:50 pm

    GunshipDemocracy wrote:Iskander is one stage missile Never heard about jettisoning engine in 1 stage missiles.
    Yeah maybe, only I was not talking about Iskander but about Zirkon!
    Probably the warhead of Iskander also detaches on terminal approach nevertheless. Why to carry that dead weight once the rocket is depleted?
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    GunshipDemocracy

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    Re: PAK-DA: News

    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Wed Oct 31, 2018 9:29 pm

    LMFS wrote:
    GunshipDemocracy wrote:Iskander is one stage missile Never heard about jettisoning engine in 1 stage missiles.
    Yeah maybe, only I was not talking about Iskander but about Zirkon!
    Probably the warhead of Iskander also detaches on terminal approach nevertheless. Why to carry that dead weight once the rocket is depleted?


    With speed ~4kms kinetic energy of mass is equal chemical energy warhead. With 8-9Ma is less but still nice addition to warhead.
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    GarryB

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    Re: PAK-DA: News

    Post  GarryB on Sun Nov 04, 2018 7:14 am


    (1) not sure if 250 is a handful (more than all French fighter fleet). 250 of which 120 is to be upgraded to MiG-31BM standard (3400km/h you know ;-)))

    Yeah, you do know that the MiG-31BM is not used to carry Kinzhal... the upgraded variant intended to use Kinzhal is called MiG-31K or something and wont be much good for anything except launching Kinzhal and this new big missile for space launches or anti satellite use.

    They wont be converting hundreds of MiGs to this design... likely a dozen or two.

    10 in 2017 was already in version K.

    So you know they have converted less than one dozen for the role... why then are you talking about the 120 adapted for the interception role that will likely never carry Kinzhal?

    [quote(2) Tu-22 always have been basis for anti CSGs Naval bombers. IMHO Kiznhals might not be final weapon type but GZUR. This helps to have longer range and 6 GZUR vs 4 Kiznahls. So 50% more ammo ...[/quote]

    Actually the Tu-22M is just as much a land attack aircraft as it is a naval attack type, its theatre role with nuclear armed SEAD missiles being pretty standard stuff.

    AFAIK GZUR phase 2 is to have 12.Ma andis to be in late 2020s.

    As they get more experience with such systems their ability will only get better...

    What about Zirkon?

    Zircon will replace Onyx in all those UKSK launch tubes in ships and subs and also be put on trailers and trains all over the place.

    It would make sense to develop an air launched model that might one day replace the Kh-32 perhaps.

    Not really, apparently the scramjet only works during the cruising phase at high altitude. Besides the range is maximized by using the kinetic energy rather than using the engine until the end. So, for the approach to the target in dense layers of atmosphere the missile will apparently shed its engine.

    You are making a lot of assumptions... a scramjet is a jet engine that can burn fuel at supersonic speeds... ie in a supersonic air flow, but that is not to say it can't operate at lower air speeds in a pure ramjet mode... it is actually rather unlikely that the main rocket motor could accelerate it high or fast enough to start off in full scramjet mode and it would likely operate in ramjet mode to begin with... which is fine... it is very unlikely to be intercepted 2,000km from the target anyway.

    My comment is more in the line of signaling how the range of the Kinzhal missile from a subsonic Tu-PAK-DA would underperfrom the range of the Kinzhal used from the Tu-22 or the Tu-160.

    The size of the PAK DA means if you wanted to carry Kinzhal missiles internally you could probably attach a rather large extra stage booster rocket motor to get the missile moving much faster and at much higher altitude than a MiG-31 could get it to, but Kinzhal seems to me to be a short term stopgap answer to the US parking a CVN off the Russian coast and making threats... in a decades time when the PAK DA is in service I suspect there will be a range of interesting new powerful weapons it could carry for an enormous range of roles and missions... its subsonic speed and enormous internal volume expands the range of weapons it can carry stealthily and aerodynamically efficiently.

    Yeah maybe, only I was not talking about Iskander but about Zirkon!
    Probably the warhead of Iskander also detaches on terminal approach nevertheless. Why to carry that dead weight once the rocket is depleted?

    All the drawings and models I have seen showing what Zircon might look like are wedge shaped aircraft with a big solid rocket booster attached to the rear... I agree that solid rear booster will be jettisoned, but I suspect the scramjet motor will be integral to the design of the missile and being a jet engine can provide thrust at pretty much any speed until it runs out of fuel... why even want to jettison the engine... once you do that you become ballistic and a much easier target.

    Once all the fuel is burned up a jet engine... particularly a scramjet engine is actually very light with very few moving parts or expensive components...

    With speed ~4kms kinetic energy of mass is equal chemical energy warhead. With 8-9Ma is less but still nice addition to warhead.

    Indeed... it is positioned behind the warhead and guidance component of the missile so adds very little drag, but in terms of kinetic energy adds mass to improve flight performance because a heavier object pushes the air aside better than a lighter object...


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    Re: PAK-DA: News

    Post  Arrow on Sun Nov 04, 2018 10:16 am

    Gzur based on the mythical Zircon rocket?
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    GunshipDemocracy

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    Re: PAK-DA: News

    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Sun Nov 04, 2018 12:42 pm

    GarryB wrote:They wont be converting hundreds of MiGs to this design... likely a dozen or two.
    The question is why would they need hundreds? in case of 24 you can use 8 North Fleet, 8 Mediterranean, and 8 Far East. How many US CSGs can one time to attack?


    GB in cerebral fitness wrote:
    10 in 2017 was already in version K.
    So you know they have converted less than one dozen for the role... why then are you talking about the 120 adapted for the interception role that will likely never carry Kinzhal?

    You said there is only a handful of MiGs. No it is not. The can convert as many as they need.  Apparently they dont.


    GB saga continues wrote:][quote(2) Tu-22 always have been basis for anti CSGs Naval bombers. IMHO Kiznhals might not be final weapon type but GZUR. This helps to have longer range and 6 GZUR vs 4 Kiznahls. So 50% more ammo ...
    Actually the Tu-22M is just as much a land attack aircraft as it is a naval attack type, its theatre role with nuclear armed SEAD missiles being pretty standard stuff.[/quote]

    True, but show me other bomber similar class with Kh-22/32





    GB wrote:
    AFAIK GZUR phase 2 is to have 12.Ma andis to be in late 2020s.
    As they get more experience with such systems their ability will only get better...

    till they reach 25Ma nad turns to be Avangard  lol1  lol1  lol1


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    GunshipDemocracy

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    Re: PAK-DA: News

    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Sun Nov 04, 2018 12:45 pm

    Arrow wrote:Gzur based on the mythical Zircon rocket?

    Not sure about that but unlikely direct scaling. For sure tho not on plastic (made in China) firecracker X-51

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    Re: PAK-DA: News

    Post  Arrow on Sun Nov 04, 2018 1:15 pm


    The US at least showed X-51 during the test, we know that there is real what can not be said about Zircon.
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    LMFS

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    Re: PAK-DA: News

    Post  LMFS on Sun Nov 04, 2018 11:03 pm

    GarryB wrote:Zircon will replace Onyx in all those UKSK launch tubes in ships and subs and also be put on trailers and trains all over the place.

    It would make sense to develop an air launched model that might one day replace the Kh-32 perhaps.
    Yes, that is what I mean. If you have a hypersonic missile it makes sense making an air launched version (like Onyx and Brahmos) instead of waiting a decade for a specific air-launched model. But well, the Zirkon was expected for deployment in 2018, maybe it is already secretly in operation, maybe it will take a decade itself What a Face

    You are making a lot of assumptions... a scramjet is a jet engine that can burn fuel at supersonic speeds... ie in a supersonic air flow, but that is not to say it can't operate at lower air speeds in a pure ramjet mode... it is actually rather unlikely that the main rocket motor could accelerate it high or fast enough to start off in full scramjet mode and it would likely operate in ramjet mode to begin with... which is fine... it is very unlikely to be intercepted 2,000km from the target anyway.
    This info is from a Russian patent, otherwise it would be myself making too many assumptions yes! But in any case once the fuel is burnt, your warhead has a hell of kinetic energy that still can be used for increasing range, at best without the drag and weight of the engine, an approach which besides reduces notably the size and RCS of the target for enemy missile defence. I think it makes full sense...

    All the drawings and models I have seen showing what Zircon might look like are wedge shaped aircraft with a big solid rocket booster attached to the rear... I agree that solid rear booster will be jettisoned, but I suspect the scramjet motor will be integral to the design of the missile and being a jet engine can provide thrust at pretty much any speed until it runs out of fuel... why even want to jettison the engine... once you do that you become ballistic and a much easier target.

    Once all the fuel is burned up a jet engine... particularly a scramjet engine is actually very light with very few moving parts or expensive components...
    That was my understanding too, until I saw this:



    The final approach will probably be aeroballistic like Iskander. Given the speed of the warhead, the slightest change in trajectory can mean km at the point of interception, so I guess it will be still very difficult to hit.

    With speed ~4kms kinetic energy of mass is equal chemical energy warhead. With 8-9Ma is less but still nice addition to warhead.

    Indeed... it is positioned behind the warhead and guidance component of the missile so adds very little drag, but in terms of kinetic energy adds mass to improve flight performance because a heavier object pushes the air aside better than a lighter object...
    See the picture above, the air-breathing scramjet engine is a massive source of drag. And its mass only pushes the warhead downwards, not forward! I guess it is more effective to bring HE to the target than an empty shell, if not there wouldn't be any warhead to start with!

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    Re: PAK-DA: News

    Post  Arrow on Sun Nov 04, 2018 11:27 pm

    But well, the Zirkon was expected for deployment in 2018, maybe it is already secretly in operation, maybe it will take a decade itself What a Face wrote:

    Nothing is known about the Zirkon. The last test took place in 2017 from 885 submarine.
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    GunshipDemocracy

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    Re: PAK-DA: News

    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Mon Nov 05, 2018 2:55 am

    Arrow wrote:
    The US at least showed X-51 during the test, we know that there is real what can not be said about Zircon.

    Shown was plastic model nothing really able to fly. You have full right to believe in US state's propaganda. US also had waving flag on Moon. Oh those solar winds.
    US military seem to be much more realistic than yourself tho.

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    Re: PAK-DA: News

    Post  Arrow on Mon Nov 05, 2018 8:57 am

    The X-51 made real flights with the scram jet engine. Zirkon may be the invention of Russian propaganda. Still hidden
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    GunshipDemocracy

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    Re: PAK-DA: News

    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Tue Nov 06, 2018 12:09 am

    Arrow wrote:The X-51 made real flights with the scram jet engine

    what scramjet engine ? it was rocket one with fake inlet in Chinese mad eplastic toy (aliexpress) as all in US propaganda. USA is as creative nation as Sumerians . If there is no success we need to invent one!
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    GarryB

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    Re: PAK-DA: News

    Post  GarryB on Tue Nov 06, 2018 11:18 am

    The question is why would they need hundreds? in case of 24 you can use 8 North Fleet, 8 Mediterranean, and 8 Far East. How many US CSGs can one time to attack?

    If you sink one ship they will get angry... sink them all and they will get scared....

    You said there is only a handful of MiGs. No it is not. The can convert as many as they need. Apparently they dont.

    We were talking about MiGs carrying Kinzhal... I was meaning there was only a handful of MiG-31Ks...

    True, but show me other bomber similar class with Kh-22/32

    The most produced Kh-22M was the anti radiation model and the other widely carried one was designed to hit a ground coordinate and carried a nuclear warhead... both were intended to hit targets on the ground.

    The anti ship model had an active radar homing seeker that was used for the first strike often followed up with the anti radiation model to attack ships with their radars activated after the first attack...

    till they reach 25Ma nad turns to be Avangard

    Actually I suspect they will get up to a speed where they think is fast enough and then they will likely focus on manouverability improvements to make them harder to intercept rather than just keep increasing speed...

    Gzur based on the mythical Zircon rocket?

    Gzur seems to be air launched and likely based on the rocket powered Kh-15 Kickback.

    Zircon is an airbreathing scramjet powered missile that is an evolution of Onyx though might look totally different because of the speed increase.

    The US at least showed X-51 during the test, we know that there is real what can not be said about Zircon.

    I have seen Donald Trump, but I still don't believe he is real.

    Yes, that is what I mean. If you have a hypersonic missile it makes sense making an air launched version (like Onyx and Brahmos) instead of waiting a decade for a specific air-launched model. But well, the Zirkon was expected for deployment in 2018, maybe it is already secretly in operation, maybe it will take a decade itself

    It took a while to master the propeller, but when it was mastered a limit was met... the speed of sound... then the jet engine was developed and improved... currently we have lots of different jet engine types, but now they are working on a scramjet, which for all intents and purposes has no practical speed limit... the only thing restricting the performance will be temperature.

    In comparison turbojets dont operate beyond about mach 2.5 because the rotational speed of the blades can't take the heat and rotational forces... ramjets can go faster because there are no rotating parts... but the fuel can only burn subsonically... in a scramjet there are no speed limits... only heat limits.

    That was my understanding too, until I saw this:

    And what makes you think this programme is even active... the Buran is a hypersonic vehicle that does not have main engines to begin with of course, but that suggests little in this regard... the engine was jettisoned because it was a rocket and it burned out early in the flight... with a scramjet motor it could continue to provide thrust all the way to the target (unlike a rocket which burns fuel faster).


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    Re: PAK-DA: News

    Post  Arrow on Tue Nov 06, 2018 12:23 pm

    with a scramjet motor it could continue to provide thrust all the way to the target (unlike a rocket which burns fuel faster). wrote:

    Scramjet works only up to a height of about 50 km. It needs oxygen from the atmosphere
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    Big_Gazza

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    Re: PAK-DA: News

    Post  Big_Gazza on Wed Nov 07, 2018 4:39 am

    Arrow wrote:Scramjet works only up to a height of about 50 km. It needs oxygen from the atmosphere

    You have a source for that claim? Air density may reduce with altitude, but the intake pressure and air massflow depends on both vehicle speed and air pressure. As long as the speed is high enough, positive thrust can be maintained. Rather than using my own words, I'll quote wikipedia:

    "To keep the combustion rate of the fuel constant, the pressure and temperature in the engine must also be constant. This is problematic because the airflow control systems that would facilitate this are not physically possible in a scramjet launch vehicle due to the large speed and altitude range involved, meaning that it must travel at an altitude specific to its speed. Because air density reduces at higher altitudes, a scramjet must climb at a specific rate as it accelerates to maintain a constant air pressure at the intake. This optimal climb/descent profile is called a “constant dynamic pressure path”. It is thought that scramjets might be operable up to an altitude of 75 km"

    I won't hang my hat on wikipedia as its only public-domain user-edited info and the real world R&D behind these engines is classified stuff. Wiki is good enough however to get an appreciation of the complexities involved.
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    dino00

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    Re: PAK-DA: News

    Post  dino00 on Wed Nov 07, 2018 8:14 pm

    RUSSIA BEGAN TO DEVELOP A PROMISING STRATEGIC BOMBER

    MOSCOW, Nov. 7 - RIA News. Russia has begun the development of a promising long-range aviation complex (PAK DA), according to the official page of the United Aircraft Building Corporation on Facebook .

    Work on the modernization and development of this unique complex is under special control of the supreme commander and minister of defense, which is proved by their visit to the aviation plant in Kazan.

    In addition, due to the modernization of the strategic missile-carriers Tu-160M ​​and Tu-95MS, the recovery of the production of Tu-160M ​​aircraft increases the air component of the strategic nuclear forces.

    РИА Новости https://ria.ru/arms/20181107/1532319611.html
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    GunshipDemocracy

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    Re: PAK-DA: News

    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Thu Nov 08, 2018 2:21 am

    dino00 wrote:

    In addition, due to the modernization of the strategic missile-carriers Tu-160M ​​and Tu-95MS, the recovery of the production of Tu-160M ​​aircraft increases the air component of the strategic nuclear forces.

    uff first time I've read modernization of PAK DA and thought WTF? lol1 lol1 lol1
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    eehnie

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    Re: PAK-DA: News

    Post  eehnie on Thu Nov 08, 2018 1:31 pm

    dino00 wrote:RUSSIA BEGAN TO DEVELOP A PROMISING STRATEGIC BOMBER

    MOSCOW, Nov. 7 - RIA News. Russia has begun the development of a promising long-range aviation complex (PAK DA), according to the official page of the United Aircraft Building Corporation on Facebook .

    Work on the modernization and development of this unique complex is under special control of the supreme commander and minister of defense, which is proved by their visit to the aviation plant in Kazan.

    In addition, due to the modernization of the strategic missile-carriers Tu-160M ​​and Tu-95MS, the recovery of the production of Tu-160M ​​aircraft increases the air component of the strategic nuclear forces.

    РИА Новости https://ria.ru/arms/20181107/1532319611.html

    It means the preliminary design would have been accepted. Good news.

    The preliminary design of the MiG-PAK-DP-41 project is also being examined by the Ministry of Defense (likely in the form of a competition) and can be approved soon. Both projects are at very similar stage of development.

    I expect the first unit (prototype) of both flying by 2025.

    Comparing to the situation of the main naval projects, the preliminary design of the Project 23560 was approved by April 2017. The first unit can be ready by 2025. Also, by the end of 2018, the preliminary project or projects of new aircraft carrier will be presented for analysis, with the Project 23000 as the alone publicly known proposal, and a decision is expected approximately in the first half of 2019. Finally the preliminary design of the future conventional submarine Kalina Project ??? seems also under examination by the Ministry of Defense.
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    SeigSoloyvov

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    Re: PAK-DA: News

    Post  SeigSoloyvov on Thu Nov 08, 2018 3:46 pm

    Incorrect the Preliminary design stage being completed would mean they are now going to construct the prototype that is how the engineering design process goes which they aren't anywhere near that stage yet.

    Development means they are further behind then the Preliminary design stage.

    Ah what stage, I do not know.
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    Isos

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    Re: PAK-DA: News

    Post  Isos on Thu Nov 08, 2018 5:20 pm

    So just like mig-41, they haven't even started anything yet while they talk about it for years. Pak-Ta should be the same thing...

    They only have fanart videos on youtube ... Rolling Eyes
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    GunshipDemocracy

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    Re: PAK-DA: News

    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Thu Nov 08, 2018 6:59 pm

    Isos wrote:So just like mig-41, they haven't even started anything yet while they talk about it for years. Pak-Ta should be the same thing...

    They only have fanart videos on youtube ... Rolling Eyes

    not really, they stated some time ago that project is postponed due to Tu-160M2 priority no 1. Why do they need so fast new bombers if there is gonna be bunch of newly built 160M2?
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    Isos

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    Re: PAK-DA: News

    Post  Isos on Thu Nov 08, 2018 7:06 pm

    GunshipDemocracy wrote:
    Isos wrote:So just like mig-41, they haven't even started anything yet while they talk about it for years. Pak-Ta should be the same thing...

    They only have fanart videos on youtube ... Rolling Eyes

    not really, they stated some time ago that project is postponed due to Tu-160M2 priority no 1.  Why do they need so fast new bombers if there is gonna be bunch of newly built 160M2?

    I'm not talking about the numbers but about how they cried all over the web they have pak-da in dev for years while this article says they only started now.

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