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    PAK-DA: News

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    Vladimir79

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    Re: PAK-DA: News

    Post  Vladimir79 on Sat Aug 04, 2018 2:15 pm

    kvs wrote:

    I think it is pointless to argue.   I smell pro-NATO liberasty on this board.

    I am going to clean the Stron.k out of this forum and bring back its credibility.  This is the order of things.


    Last edited by Vladimir79 on Sat Aug 04, 2018 2:32 pm; edited 2 times in total
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    Isos

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    Re: PAK-DA: News

    Post  Isos on Sat Aug 04, 2018 2:22 pm

    There was a video of a russian scientists that worked in russian military fields in front of israeli specialists where he claims ranges for russian missiles are much longer than what is said.

    Kh-55/101, kalibr are much bigger than us akd french missile with more fuel. So range is bigger than uS and french missiles.

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    dino00

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    Re: PAK-DA: News

    Post  dino00 on Sat Aug 04, 2018 2:24 pm

    Vladimir79 wrote:
    kvs wrote:
    dino00 wrote:

    I think it is pointless to argue.   I smell pro-NATO liberasty on this board.

    I am going to clean the Stron.k out of this forum and bring back its credibility.  This is the order of things.

    The quote isnt my. I didnt say that.
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    Vladimir79

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    Re: PAK-DA: News

    Post  Vladimir79 on Sat Aug 04, 2018 2:25 pm

    Isos wrote:There was a video of a russian scientists that worked in russian military fields in front of israeli specialists where he claims ranges for russian missiles are much longer than what is said.

    Kh-55/101, kalibr are much bigger than us akd french missile with more fuel. So range is bigger than uS and french missiles.


    I think a good extrapolation would be the fuel capacity of a Scalp Naval with its 1000km range and take that with the fuel capacity of an X-101 to get to its true range.  It is twice the weight so it could get around 2000km range. For someone to tell me that it is 4500-5000km would mean we have some super advanced microturbfan that surpasses anything the West has when there is ZERO evidence such is the case.
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    Hole

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    Re: PAK-DA: News

    Post  Hole on Sat Aug 04, 2018 3:22 pm

    Do you have sources for your claim that the range is smaller than the 4500 - 5500km (conventional/nuclear versions) that every source out there mentions?
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    Vladimir79

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    Re: PAK-DA: News

    Post  Vladimir79 on Sat Aug 04, 2018 3:26 pm

    Yes, actual tests of the weapon that do not exceed 2000km. If something is going to have a range of 5000km, it must be tested at 5000km for it's validation. Weapons are not put into service without testing their capabilities.
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    Hole

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    Re: PAK-DA: News

    Post  Hole on Sat Aug 04, 2018 3:44 pm

    Scalp/Storm Shadow weighs 1.300 kg. Warhead: 450kg.
    Kh-101/-102 weighs 2.400 kg. Warhead: 400kg.
    This would mean nearly a ton more fuel.

    Don´t know about your claims about testing, because i wasn´t there personally, but minister Shoigu did mention the range of the weapon after it was used in Syria for the first time as around 4.000km+.


    Another point: Russia could build a cruise missile with a range of 3.000km in the 80´s, so a increase of 50% seems feasible.

    Plus: the Scalp/Storm Shadow is more a operational-tactical missile, not a strategic one. The Kh-50 seems a better comparison. If it will be fielded.
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    Vladimir79

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    Re: PAK-DA: News

    Post  Vladimir79 on Sat Aug 04, 2018 4:07 pm

    Feel free to issue the test of a Kh-55 at 3000km. Just because it was accepted as fact doesn't make it so. I have monitored these tests for years and the launch platform is never more than 2000km away from the target range. I will tell you why I am going off on this now, the China thread about cruise missiles based on obsolete French turbojets going 1500km is rather insulting to my intelligence. This is less so as our turbofans are far more advanced than China but they do not exceed the French in fuel efficient turbofan ratios. We have to partner with Safran just to get the SaM146 efficient enough to make the SSJ100 competitive. If we have a 2400kg cruise missile that can fly 5000km where is our leap in technology that makes it possible?
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    SeigSoloyvov

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    Re: PAK-DA: News

    Post  SeigSoloyvov on Sat Aug 04, 2018 4:29 pm

    dino00 wrote:
    SeigSoloyvov wrote:
    dino00 wrote:The application of this missile showed a very high degree of reliability. This is really the most modern weapon, with high-precision and high-power, and a decent range of 4,500 kilometers," Putin told a meeting of the Commission on Military Technical Cooperation of Russia with Foreign States, according to a transcript posted on the Kremlin's website.

    Putin word yes sir

    Just because Putin says something that doesn't make it true, Things need to be backed up with facts not "He said,  she said".

    ``He`` is the president...should deserve some credibility.
    We don`t have proofs to the contrary...by your standard we can`t talk about almost any weapon.
    Putin Said it has 4500km range when alot of information, was that the missile had an even greater range.

    He can be the Emperor that doesn't change the fact the guy has lied before. so no he will get no credibility, no more then I would give anyone who stated Bs American or Russian.

    I have seen no data or test data that says the missile can go 5000km, there is jack nadda to support that.

    I have access to better information sources than most. If you have real evidence show it, not a guy saying it can.

    I don't deal in what if's I deal in facts.
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    SeigSoloyvov

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    Re: PAK-DA: News

    Post  SeigSoloyvov on Sat Aug 04, 2018 4:34 pm

    Hole wrote:Scalp/Storm Shadow weighs 1.300 kg. Warhead: 450kg.
    Kh-101/-102 weighs 2.400 kg. Warhead: 400kg.
    This would mean nearly a ton more fuel.

    Don´t know about your claims about testing, because i wasn´t there personally, but minister Shoigu did mention the range of the weapon after it was used in Syria for the first time as around 4.000km+.


    Another point: Russia could build a cruise missile with a range of 3.000km in the 80´s, so a increase of 50% seems feasible.

    Plus: the Scalp/Storm Shadow is more a operational-tactical missile, not a strategic one. The Kh-50 seems a better comparison. If it will be fielded.

    You misunderstood him he said the missile had an Altitude of 4K, and it's max is like 6k.

    It's max range is like 2800km maybe 3000km.

    The event you are talking about the missile only flew about 1000km has recorded by EVERYONE. The missile did not fly 4000km that is a big steaming lie.
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    Isos

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    Re: PAK-DA: News

    Post  Isos on Sat Aug 04, 2018 5:04 pm

    Vladimir79 wrote:Feel free to issue the test of a Kh-55 at 3000km.  Just because it was accepted as fact doesn't make it so.  I have monitored these tests for years and the launch platform is never more than 2000km away from the target range.  I will tell you why I am going off on this now, the China thread about cruise missiles based on obsolete French turbojets going 1500km is rather insulting to my intelligence.  This is less so as our turbofans are far more advanced than China but they do not exceed the French in fuel efficient turbofan ratios.  We have to partner with Safran just to get the SaM146 efficient enough to make the SSJ100 competitive.  If we have a 2400kg cruise missile that can fly 5000km where is our leap in technology that makes it possible?  

    French never gave real ranges about their missiles. MdCN is said to be 1000+km not 1000km. Scalp also was said to be 200 or 300km while it was actually 500-600km.

    Depending on the flight profile, achieving 40000-5000km is possible for kh-55/101 in my opinion.
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    LMFS

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    Re: PAK-DA: News

    Post  LMFS on Sat Aug 04, 2018 5:51 pm

    Vladimir79 wrote:It was only demonstrated at 1000km range, so we can assume it only has a slightly greater range which means all Tu-95 all vulnerable to counter attack and need immediate withdrawal.  The president's word means spit when he revealed all of his fake weapons that will never exist.

    Ok... are you submitting that the weapons presented on March 1st are fake? Just asking...
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    Vladimir79

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    Re: PAK-DA: News

    Post  Vladimir79 on Sat Aug 04, 2018 5:58 pm

    LMFS wrote:

    Ok... are you submitting that the weapons presented on March 1st are fake? Just asking...

    I wouldn't call it fake... more like pipe-dreams.
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    Isos

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    Re: PAK-DA: News

    Post  Isos on Sat Aug 04, 2018 6:52 pm

    LMFS wrote:

    Ok... are you submitting that the weapons presented on March 1st are fake? Just asking...
    [/quote]

    They were tesed. Even if they don't work, the fact that they showed them means they have worked enough on them to have the technologies full capable in the next 10 years.

    The nuclear engine runing for 20 min means they achieved to make it fly, something the west can only dream of.

    The fact is that russian can build weapons to counter US forces pretty easily and that's something many hate to acknowledge. They prefere to point issues instead.
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    miketheterrible

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    Re: PAK-DA: News

    Post  miketheterrible on Sat Aug 04, 2018 8:22 pm

    Even the americans admitted that various systems were tested with success, including Avangard.

    Just because a missile was launched 1,000km doesn't mean it cant go further.  Just because we are not informed of all tests, doesn't mean squat.

    I cant believe I have to be the one to explain this.

    Edit: Let me put into clarity to what I am saying.

    Last use of Kh-101 was at roughly 1,000km range on Bears. It was stated it was 6th time it was used in combat mission.

    So, what ranges were the previous ones? If you say its 1,000km, can you prove that they were done at 1,000km as well and not at shorter or longer ranges?
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    Hole

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    Re: PAK-DA: News

    Post  Hole on Sun Aug 05, 2018 4:47 am

    So all are lying? Amis. Russians. French.

    AGM-86 and Kh-55 are roughly the same size and weight. Both can reach a range 0f 2.500 km. This has been tested. By both countries. Feel free to provide data that prove otherwise.

    Kh-55SM has more fuel so the range could to 3.000km. Again, this has been tested according to every expert out there.

    The greater range of the Kh-101 (this is the conventional one, not the cruise Missile with nuclear Propulsion) is do to the fact that it is longer and heavier than the Kh-55 or AGM-86. It carries much more fuel. Scalp/Storm Shadow is smaller, carries less fuel = less range. All their turbofans got roughly the same performance/fuel consumption. Its the amount of fuel which makes their range differ. Like with planes. B-1B and Tu-160 loke almost the same, but the Tu-160 is larger, carries much more fuel and therefore got a greater range.
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    bantugbro

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    Re: PAK-DA: News

    Post  bantugbro on Sun Aug 05, 2018 6:51 am

    This thread is getting silly, so if a weapon system has been demonstrated at X km range while specs stated that it is capable of achieving even greater range of Y km, what is the fuss about that.

    For Gods sake, why would any serious military reveal each and everything regarding the performance capability of their weapon system? the intrigues shall continue, for non believers, the best place to feel the wrath of such weapon systems is to be on the receiving end prefarably somewhere in Daraa or Allepo Very Happy
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    Vladimir79

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    Re: PAK-DA: News

    Post  Vladimir79 on Sun Aug 05, 2018 9:39 am

    Hole wrote:So all are lying? Amis. Russians. French.

    AGM-86 and Kh-55 are roughly the same size and weight. Both can reach a range 0f 2.500 km. This has been tested. By both countries. Feel free to provide data that prove otherwise.

    Kh-55SM has more fuel so the range could to 3.000km. Again, this has been tested according to every expert out there.

    Test of a Kh-555 cruise missile

    Russia conducted a new test of a Kh-555 air-launched cruise missile - a conventional version of the Kh-55, which has been in service with the strategic aviation since 1981. The first test of Kh-555 was conducted in 1999 and, according to a representative of the Ministry of Defense, was accepted for service in 2004. Development of the new missile is apparently part of a plan to convert some of the strategic bombers for conventional missions. The range demonstrated by the missile in the last test is about 2000 km.

    http://russianforces.org/blog/2005/05/test_of_a_kh555_cruise_missile.shtml

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    Isos

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    Re: PAK-DA: News

    Post  Isos on Sun Aug 05, 2018 9:46 am

    Even 2500-3000km in range is enough for tu-95 to attack any country. Most of europe can be attacked since their home bases and US can be attacked on their east coast by flying low when it is at 3500km from the coast.

    I would imprive missiles instead of making pak da.

    A stealth su-34 would have been better because it needs to go in enemy air space.

    Strategic aviation won't be used against tanks with fab-500 bombs ...
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    Vladimir79

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    Re: PAK-DA: News

    Post  Vladimir79 on Sun Aug 05, 2018 10:17 am

    Isos wrote:Even 2500-3000km in range is enough for tu-95 to attack any country. Most of europe can be attacked since their home bases and US can be attacked on their east coast by flying low when it is at 3500km from the coast.

    I would imprive missiles instead of making pak da.

    A stealth su-34 would have been better because it needs to go in enemy air space.

    Strategic aviation won't be used against tanks with fab-500 bombs ...

    They would launch that missile at 2000km as that is the limit it has been tested. No one will rest their nuclear deterrent on untested capabilities. At that range a Tu-95 will be spotted and likely intercepted before it can launch at the mainland US. It is too slow and has a massive RCS. A Tu-160 can do it thanks to its speed, get in and out before they can intercept you. An Su-34 can be used against Europe but is still not as survivable as it cannot supercruise like a Tu-160. We need three more squadrons of Tu-160 to replace Tu-95 and four squadrons of Su-57 to replace Tu-22M3. If we get this PAK-DA can be delayed for a long time but still maintain a regional and global nuclear triad. As you saw from the resent test of Su-57, they are placing it in the nuclear deterrent role. It is not so strange as Rafale is also used in this way by France.

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    Isos

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    Re: PAK-DA: News

    Post  Isos on Sun Aug 05, 2018 11:05 am

    Tu-22M can launched kh-22. They are there to counter us carrier in a conventional way. You can't replace them by su-57 and kh-35.

    For nuclear deterence missiles should be improved instead of their carriers.

    Supercruising is good when you leave the area. When you go on the target protected by air force, supersonic speed isn't a help. You need either stand off missiles or capacities to attack the other fighters. Su-34 has both. Tu-160 has long range missiles only but too expensive to use it every day during war as non strategic tool.

    They would launch that missile at 2000km as that is the limit it has been tested. No one will rest their nuclear deterrent on untested capabilities.

    Nuclear tests are forbiden so most of nuclear warehead would be used untested. Russia has 5000 wareheads so they can launch them from even mig-29A if needed.
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    Vladimir79

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    Re: PAK-DA: News

    Post  Vladimir79 on Sun Aug 05, 2018 11:28 am

    Isos wrote:Tu-22M can launched kh-22. They are there to counter us carrier in a conventional way. You can't replace them by su-57 and kh-35.

    For nuclear deterence missiles should be improved instead of their carriers.

    Supercruising is good when you leave the area. When you go on the target protected by air force, supersonic speed isn't a help. You need either stand off missiles or capacities to attack the other fighters. Su-34 has both. Tu-160 has long range missiles only but too expensive to use it every day during war as non strategic tool.

    Nuclear tests are forbiden so most of nuclear warehead would be used untested. Russia has 5000 wareheads so they can launch them from even mig-29A if needed.

    To integrate and test missiles on a new carrier costs tens of millions of dollars.  It is not plug and play like a USB.  It is like a USB device with no supported drivers.

    Supercruise is important to extend range and limit the exposure at the point of launch.  The primary mission of strategic aviation is to get their nuclear payloads launched, after that is just a test of survival, the mission is complete.
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    LMFS

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    Re: PAK-DA: News

    Post  LMFS on Sun Aug 05, 2018 12:32 pm

    Without wanting to get deep this in this controversy, I would very much doubt any state would reveal the exact range of their strategic CM, either by statements or by publishing test information. So this is an issue we cannot clarify here I'm afraid. And if any of you actually can, then you should not say absolutely anything I guess... angel

    @Vladimir79:

    - How and why should the Su-57 replace the Tu-22M3? The later is much bigger, longer ranged and still survivable due to stand-off weapons + speed. In fact I see it as one of the unique and highest value assets in RuAF. It is in fact going to be modernized for many more years of service apparently
    - Care pointing out where the nuclear role of Su-57 has been declared? I missed that one, thanks
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    KomissarBojanchev

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    Re: PAK-DA: News

    Post  KomissarBojanchev on Sun Aug 05, 2018 2:24 pm

    Vladimir79 wrote:Feel free to issue the test of a Kh-55 at 3000km.  Just because it was accepted as fact doesn't make it so.  I have monitored these tests for years and the launch platform is never more than 2000km away from the target range.  I will tell you why I am going off on this now, the China thread about cruise missiles based on obsolete French turbojets going 1500km is rather insulting to my intelligence.  This is less so as our turbofans are far more advanced than China but they do not exceed the French in fuel efficient turbofan ratios.  We have to partner with Safran just to get the SaM146 efficient enough to make the SSJ100 competitive.  If we have a 2400kg cruise missile that can fly 5000km where is our leap in technology that makes it possible?  

    Give me your engineering rationale explaining how:
    1) civilian turbofans are analogous to cruise missile engines
    2)Russia, which has been a world leader in long range cruise missiles since at least the 70s(with the Granat, Granit, and P-500), is more primitive than whatever the puny french MIC can make.
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    Isos

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    Re: PAK-DA: News

    Post  Isos on Sun Aug 05, 2018 3:22 pm

    China thread about cruise missiles based on obsolete French turbojets

    Didn't they got kh-55 from ukraine just like iran did in the 90s ?

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