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    PAK-DA: News

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    George1

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    Re: PAK-DA: News

    Post  George1 on Tue Feb 13, 2018 1:14 am

    Isos wrote:What is "PAK YES" ?

    PAK-DA. It comes out "YES" in the google translation (da=yes) Very Happy , i will fix it


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    Isos

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    Re: PAK-DA: News

    Post  Isos on Tue Feb 13, 2018 1:20 am

    George1 wrote:
    Isos wrote:What is "PAK YES" ?

    PAK-DA. It comes out "YES" in the google translation (da=yes)  Very Happy , i will fix it

    lol1
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    Arctic_Fox

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    Re: PAK-DA: News

    Post  Arctic_Fox on Tue Feb 13, 2018 2:15 am

    not sure if i like this idea of "Smaller, cheaper and subsonic", seems like a downgrade to me in comparison with Tu-160.
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    PapaDragon

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    Re: PAK-DA: News

    Post  PapaDragon on Tue Feb 13, 2018 2:32 am

    Arctic_Fox wrote:not sure if i like this idea of "Smaller, cheaper and subsonic", seems like a downgrade to me in comparison with Tu-160.

    They are still getting Tu-160s so no problems

    Besides something has to do the low grade work, they can't run expensive birds for everything

    marcellogo

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    Re: PAK-DA: News

    Post  marcellogo on Tue Feb 13, 2018 10:13 am

    PapaDragon wrote:
    Arctic_Fox wrote:not sure if i like this idea of "Smaller, cheaper and subsonic", seems like a downgrade to me in comparison with Tu-160.

    They are still getting Tu-160s so no problems

    Besides something has to do the low grade work, they can't run expensive birds for everything

    Yes, also because having two different kind of approach, a big, fast supercruising bomber and a more affordable, very long range/time on station, subsonic but stealth plane would made things much more difficult for the counterpart.

    The presence of first one would need to keep almost all the F-22A in their actual bases on american territory when instead the presence of scores of the second , armed with hypersonic antiship missiles will be a constant menace for the CVN .

    In the meantime there are circulating the news that B-1B and B-2 would be retired as soon as B-21 would be produced in enough quantity.
    And rightly so, the Bone is not in any way comparable to a Tu-22M or Tu-160 as it reach just 1,3M so no clear advantage neither in comparison to the PAK-DA while the B-2 is a white elephant and will offer nothing substantially superior to the B-21.

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    GunshipDemocracy

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    Re: PAK-DA: News

    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Tue Feb 13, 2018 1:05 pm

    Big_Gazza wrote:
    GunshipDemocracy wrote:So either Piotr Butowski was using as base fanboys' art or fanboys knew something we dont Smile

    I always felt it looked too much like a Manta Ray to be taken seriously...

    especially in this camouflage Smile  But manta Ray has non stealth  inlet when its hungry  so to speak Smile




    archangelski wrote:

    More in line with the TsAGI model of a Tupolev design :

    Looks like a plastic toy model at fist sight Smile BTW I wonder how large cockpit there can be? enough to stretch legs? go to toilet? to prepare some food?

    marcellogo

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    Re: PAK-DA: News

    Post  marcellogo on Tue Feb 13, 2018 9:42 pm

    Isos wrote:What is "PAK YES" ?
    Automated translator took the acronym DA (Dalinska Avyiatsia-Long Range Aviation) for the plain word Da and translated it with Yes...
    Same with mashina being translated to road car instead than just machine.

    Install Yandex Browser to get rid of such inconvenience, being based on russian language it manage the automatic translation better.
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    GarryB

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    Re: PAK-DA: News

    Post  GarryB on Wed Feb 14, 2018 2:01 pm

    not sure if i like this idea of "Smaller, cheaper and subsonic", seems like a downgrade to me in comparison with Tu-160.

    Affordable makes sense because they can have more in service...

    Do you think the A-10 and Su-25 are rubbish because they are subsonic?

    All those supersonic fighters and no supersonic inflight refuelling aircraft...

    Supersonic costs money... why make a stand off cruise missile carrier supersonic?

    Makes rather more sense to make the missiles hypersonic...


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    Isos

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    Re: PAK-DA: News

    Post  Isos on Wed Feb 14, 2018 2:08 pm

    GarryB wrote:
    not sure if i like this idea of "Smaller, cheaper and subsonic", seems like a downgrade to me in comparison with Tu-160.

    Affordable makes sense because they can have more in service...

    Do you think the A-10 and Su-25 are rubbish because they are subsonic?

    All those supersonic fighters and no supersonic inflight refuelling aircraft...

    Supersonic costs money... why make a stand off cruise missile carrier supersonic?

    Makes rather more sense to make the missiles hypersonic...

    They would have hard time makeing Su-25 and A-10 supersonic. With armements they produce drag as no other fighter jet. Subsonic means less powerfull engine but more economic so they can fly at low lvl during all the mission which is better specially in a mountainous environement.

    Those two Aircraft are the best one ever build in my opinion. They are the most usefull for every war.

    wilhelm

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    Re: PAK-DA: News

    Post  wilhelm on Wed Feb 14, 2018 7:16 pm

    Eehnie seems to have made himself scarce...
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    GarryB

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    Re: PAK-DA: News

    Post  GarryB on Thu Feb 15, 2018 6:48 am


    They would have hard time makeing Su-25 and A-10 supersonic.

    When they were introduced there were plenty of fast moving fighterbombers like the MiG-27 and the Su-17 family in the Soviet Union and the Jaguar in the west...

    The point is that their jobs did not need supersonic speed... ability to operate from frontline strips was more important than high speed and long range... low speed meant targets could be spotted and dealt with, and extra weapons pylons allowed heavy weapon loads to be carried.

    With armements they produce drag as no other fighter jet.

    Subsonic means more internal volume to carry more weapons internally... these aircraft are not first strike aircraft.... even at high subsonic flight to the launch area and a supersonic dash and then launch and then flight home for a Tu-160 will take 8 hours or more for the missiles to hit their targets, so it is not like having supersonic speed is going to make any difference.

    The airspace they will be penetrating will be about 3-4 hours after all those ICBM warheads and SLBM warheads have vaporised everything.

    Subsonic means less powerfull engine but more economic so they can fly at low lvl during all the mission which is better specially in a mountainous environement.

    Actually the turbojet engine of the Su-25 is not that efficient at low altitude... it would be rather more efficient at medium to high altitude like most jet engines.

    Those two Aircraft are the best one ever build in my opinion. They are the most usefull for every war.

    they are better than their supersonic equivalents because very high speed is actually counter productive for the missions they engage in.

    For a strategic bomber speed is not useless, but it wont make them invulnerable either and it costs a lot of money in terms of weight and fuel and design compromises to achieve supersonic speed... by going for subsonic you save an awful lot of money and greatly increase your design options... including increase internal volume for fuel and weapons.

    the new missiles it will be carrying will be bigger... 12m or more in length perhaps with flight ranges of more than 5,000km, or very high flight speeds... carrying them internally improves flight performance by not increasing drag, and keeps RCS low... I doubt they will go for a tiny RCS as that is expensive, but if they can keep it relatively low it extends the distance at which it can operate from enemy forces without being spotted easily.


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    PapaDragon

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    Re: PAK-DA: News

    Post  PapaDragon on Thu Feb 15, 2018 3:46 pm

    wilhelm wrote:Eehnie seems to have made himself scarce...

    Nah, he's probably digging through Star Wars wookieepedia trying to get more "evidence" that flotilla of Lider destroyers has almost completed construction.... Smile

    I guarantee you he is coming back with more "facts"
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    eehnie

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    Re: PAK-DA: News

    Post  eehnie on Sun Apr 29, 2018 5:03 pm

    GunshipDemocracy wrote:
    GarryB wrote:Shame they don't list the upgrades...

    They actually did Smile


    in short:
    Crew: 2 pilots
    Engines same as Tu-160M2 - NK-32
    avionics - based on 160M2 (I presume netcentric with new navigation to chase CVBGs)

    Weaposn: Kh-32, Kindzhal, X-50 (scaled down X-101) and Gzur ( Ma-8 missile) both x6 and with range   ~1500 km (this form BMPD)

    Attention: air-frame also will be modified (didn't say to what degree though)
    Build in refueling bar too  russia  russia  russia


    refurbished: 36 units. Not bad to fend off NTO fleet. + 50 Tu-160M2.






    Updated missile carrier Tu-22M3M will receive a rigging Tu-160

    https://rg.ru/2018/04/28/reg-pfo/obnovlennyj-raketonosec-tu-22m3m-poluchit-osnastku-tu-160.html
    The creation of a deeply modernized bomber-missile carrier Tu-22M3M is nearing completion, the head of the Tupolev company Alexander Konyukhov said.

    - On the prototype of a deeply modernized missile carrier, assembly work and preparations for the first take-off are being completed . It is planned for the third quarter of 2018. In the same year, modernization of combat aircraft will begin, "Interfax quotes Konyukhov .

    The updated Tu-22 will receive new, more economical and durable engines, as well as on-board electronics, unified with the "older brother", the strategic missile carrier Tu-160. In particular, the aircraft will have a system of space communications and the ability to receive in-flight target designation - including from mobile sea and land terminals. Given that the main task of the Tu-22 is still hunting for aircraft carriers, the ability to take on-the-fly operational information about their whereabouts will not be superfluous. Another innovation will be the bar for refueling the aircraft in the air - this option will increase the already considerable combat radius of the missile carrier - with new engines the flight range of the Tu-22M3M will be almost 10 thousand kilometers.

    In parallel with the modernization of the aircraft, a new weapon is being developed for him. The upgraded electronics will allow the aircraft to use the Kh-32, Kh-55, Kh-555, Kh-101/102 missiles, and prospective Kh-50, GZUR and Dagger .

    "Modernization will significantly prolong the service life of Tu-22M family aircraft," Konyukhov stressed. According to open sources, Russia has more than 100 aircraft of this type.

    Collecting new cars and modernizing the drill will be in Kazan, where at the Gorbunov Aircraft Plant there are at least four Tu-22 gliders preserved from the Soviet reserve. In addition, the company has accumulated experience in restoring production of Tu-160. The first "White Swan" from the new series  climbed into the sky in early 2018.












    Russia will raise into the sky  a new missile carrier


    The first flight of the upgraded long-range missile carrier Tu-22M3M is scheduled for August 2018, RIA Novosti reported at the Kazan aircraft plant.

    https://rg.ru/2018/04/25/reg-pfo/rossiia-podnimet-v-nebo-novyj-raketonosec.html

    "We intend to lift the Tu-22M3M in the air in August," the company representative said.

    Photo: Grigory Sysoev / RIA Novosti
    Preparation of the Su-57 for the Victory Parade was shot on video
    Deep modernization and the resumption of the mass production of the most massive long-range aircraft was laid in the State Program of Armaments for 2018-2027. The aircraft is updated according to the scheme used for the "older brother" Tu-160: from the old Tu-22M, there is only a glider (and the one is modified).

    Instead of the regular NK-25 engines, the missile carrier will receive the upgraded Tu-160 power units: with a similar thrust, they are more durable and much more economical - the range of the upgraded Tu-22 will grow by one and a half times. The aircraft will receive a retractable bar for refueling in the air and an on-board electronics similar to the Tu-160M2. The crew

    will be reduced from four to two people.

    In the arsenal of the missile carrier will enter as available weapons of destruction: cruise missiles X-55, X-555, X-32, X-101/102, and prospective: Kindzhal , X-50 and GZUR. The weapons compartment is likely to be enlarged. The aircraft will be equipped with a space link to obtain target coordinates in real time - including from portable land and sea terminals.

    Collect the updated missile carriers and modernize the combat vehicles will be at the Kazan Aircraft Plant named after Gorbunov, where from the Soviet times at least four unfinished gliders have been preserved. The GPV provides for the modernization of 36 combat aircraft, mass production of the Tu-22M3M is planned to be deployed in the mid-1920s at a rate of three or four aircraft per year.

    Well, the reality coming to pass over wrong arguments.

    GarryB will recognize now that the Tu-22 is an strategic bomber? Will now recognize that it was possible to recover the refueling system?

    The Tu-95/142 will be replaced in good part by new units of the Tu-160.
    The Il-38 is likely to be replaced by recovered units of the Tu-22.

    Here, in these news about the modernized Tu-22 and Tu-160, you have the technological floor for the Tu-PAK-DA. There is not room for a Tu-PAK-DA that improves not the the technological floor marked by the modernized Tu-22 and the Tu-160. The Tu-PAK-DA is reported to be approximately of the size of the Tu-22. The TU-PAK-DA only will succeed if it improves the capabilities of the modernized Tu-22 (and of the Tu-160 in relative terms). Subsonic fanboys have a serious problem with this.

    With me here or not, the reality will continue coming.


    Last edited by eehnie on Mon May 07, 2018 3:51 am; edited 1 time in total
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    Hole

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    Re: PAK-DA: News

    Post  Hole on Sun Apr 29, 2018 10:13 pm

    You know that the Il-38 and Tu-142 are anti-submarine warfare aircraft?
    Why should someone use a supersonic plane for ASW?
    There´s no need for that!

    mnztr

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    Re: PAK-DA: News

    Post  mnztr on Mon Apr 30, 2018 4:43 am

    Wow 50% more range for the TU-22? That make it into a strategic bomber no? getting pretty close to 10000 km!!
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    GarryB

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    Re: PAK-DA: News

    Post  GarryB on Tue May 01, 2018 11:49 am

    GarryB will recognize now that the Tu-22 is an strategic bomber? Will now recognize that it was possible to recover the refueling system?

    Actually I would say it proves the opposite... first of all the weapons listed don't include strategic nuclear weapons... ie teh Kh-102 standard nuclear armed 5,000km range land attack cruise missile that would be the primary strategic nuclear armament of the Tu-95MSM and Tu160M2 strategic cruise missile carrying aircraft.

    And second if the Tu-22M3M is GETTING INFLIGHT REFUELLING capability that means that the current in service Tu0-22M3 does not currently have it.

    The Il-38 is likely to be replaced by recovered units of the Tu-22.

    Il-38 is an anti sub maritime patrol aircraft... what exactly can a Tu-22M3M do against a submarine? How would it even find it?

    Here, in these news about the modernized Tu-22 and Tu-160, you have the technological floor for the Tu-PAK-DA. There is not room for a Tu-PAK-DA that improves not the the technological floor marked by the modernized Tu-22 and the Tu-160. The Tu-PAK-DA is reported to be approximately of the size of the Tu-22. The TU-PAK-DA only will succeed if it improves the capabilities of the modernized Tu-22 (and of the Tu-160 in relative terms). Subsonic fanboys have a serious problem with this.

    the same sources that said the PAK DA will be the size of the Tu-22M3 also said Sukhoi were making it...

    The PAK DA is a strategic bomber so needs to be the size of a strategic bomber aircraft like the Tu-95 or Tu-160.

    It will be able to trade excess fuel for extra weapons for a theatre role, but its primary role is long range cruise missile carrier.

    Wow 50% more range for the TU-22? That make it into a strategic bomber no? getting pretty close to 10000 km!!

    It actually states it has a 10,000km range, so 5,000km flight radius... which is about 1,500km short of what the CIA in the US has been claiming its real performance is so it can be included in START II cuts. Now START II is null and void and means nothing any more.



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    Militarov

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    Re: PAK-DA: News

    Post  Militarov on Tue May 01, 2018 12:33 pm

    Hole wrote:You know that the Il-38 and Tu-142 are anti-submarine warfare aircraft?
    Why should someone use a supersonic plane for ASW?
    There´s no need for that!

    Supersonic ASW is useless, except for delivering the payload.

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    Re: PAK-DA: News

    Post  mnztr on Tue May 01, 2018 2:36 pm

    Hole wrote:You know that the Il-38 and Tu-142 are anti-submarine warfare aircraft?
    Why should someone use a supersonic plane for ASW?
    There´s no need for that!

    Actually that is not true, if you could combine supersonic with good low speed flight characteristics then you may have something. You also have to remember the low speed of ASW planes is somewhat a result of the sensor options for ASW, as tech improves on those then slow speed and loiter times become less relevant. Also subs now have the ability to fire SAMS so ASW is getting much more dangerous. Drop a sonobuoy from higher altitude and use it to detect, high speed for transit to suspect area, drop torpedo on parachute from high altitude.
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    GarryB

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    Re: PAK-DA: News

    Post  GarryB on Wed May 02, 2018 2:28 am

    Searching for targets means long flight times over enormous distances... most of the time criss crossing the same piece of water looking for the needle... being able to fly really fast is useless... and just generally means high fuel consumption... which is also useless.

    If you want a good replacement for the Tu-142 and the Il-38 then the only realistic option would be a navalised PAK DA subsonic flying wing...


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    mnztr

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    Re: PAK-DA: News

    Post  mnztr on Wed May 02, 2018 2:54 am

    You can just drop sonobouys and listen in from a distance, no need to criss cross. Fly too low and the sub may shoot you down.
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    Dorfmeister

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    Re: PAK-DA: News

    Post  Dorfmeister on Wed May 02, 2018 9:29 am

    mnztr wrote:You can just drop sonobouys and listen in from a distance, no need to criss cross. Fly too low and the sub may shoot you down.

    What an ASW plane need is loitering time/time on station, speed is of nearly no relevance for them: have a closer look, each and every aircraft used for ASW missions have been/are subsonic aircrafts. Sonobuoys are one weapon but not the only one for an ASW aircraft.

    I'm with GarryB on this one: as a subsonic flying wing with heavy payload (so room for sensors and weapons) and long-range, the PAK DA would be a perfect basis for an ASW variant.
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    eehnie

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    Re: PAK-DA: News

    Post  eehnie on Wed May 02, 2018 11:29 am

    GarryB, just to remember, and to put the things in the right place:

    http://www.russiadefence.net/t2625p625-pak-da-news#199173

    Militarov wrote:
    eehnie wrote:The Tu-22 would reach the US coast, at least Seattle, the problem would be the return. Likely would need two refueling operations, one going and other returning. I would have to think about which would be the best option (Tu-22 with refueling or Tu-95 without).

    Despite it there are lots of missions in Eurasia and over the sea that the Tu-22 can do. In this area the range really reachs until the areaas where the adversaries have high density of air defenses.

    Could you stop refering to Tu-22M as Tu-22, those two are very different machines.

    Furthermore i am not sure if you are aware that after START threaty their refueling capability was deleted and would require major modifications to regain it.

    http://www.russiadefence.net/t2625p625-pak-da-news#199179

    Militarov wrote:
    eehnie wrote:I avoid the use of variant designations. Maybe you like it. I dislike it. I will not use the designations Tu-22M, Tu-22M1, Tu-22M2, Tu-22M3. The designation Tu-22 includes all them. I neither will use the designation of the new variants of the Tu-160. Some differences, of course, including important differences, but I neither separate the engineering variants of the T-55, as example. Why I do not it:

    - It helps to respect better the technological borders between different warfare and to keep in mind the strong relations between some warfare, despite some differences.
    - It helps to keep a better order in the view of the different roles.
    - The differentiation between variants distorts the real technological timeline of the entire model (platform).

    If I'm not wrong, the ban for refueling on the Tu-22 was introduced in the SALT II treaty. Well. in case of war, this would be of very low effect. The high cost of the reinstallation of the refueling systems is more a myth than a reality, technologically there is not a basis to support it. You should know it, but obviously you do not.

    Yes, it was SALT-2. It limited yearly producion of Tu-22M, removed in-flight refueling probe, START featured ICBM-s and heavy bombers.

    I am sorry but inflight refueling probe is not "plug and play" device.

    http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a167575.pdf - it is actually fairly complex, and requires time to start with. You cant install probe on an aircraft in 24h. That is btw one very nice document, bad quality, but good document.

    You should not do that btw, because M-84 and M-84A are very different tanks. So is T-55 and T-62, even tho they are basically very similar. Tu-22 and Tu-22M (M being a baseline model, further modifications we can ignore as they are not baseline) are aircraft separated by whole generation.

    http://www.russiadefence.net/t2625p650-pak-da-news#199243

    GarryB wrote:
    eehnie wrote:The Tu-22 would reach the US coast, at least Seattle, the problem would be the return. Likely would need two refueling operations, one going and other returning. I would have to think about which would be the best option (Tu-22 with refueling or Tu-95 without).

    The Tu-22M3 has never been and cannot be fitted with inflight refuelling equipment...

    http://www.russiadefence.net/t2625p650-pak-da-news#199384

    eehnie wrote:There are two roles accepted for bombing aircrafts (air-surface ammunition) besed on range. One is the Fighter Ground Attack and the other is the Strategic Bomber. The two roles mean different dimensions of the aircrafts, different fighting style, different ammunition used and even a different configuration of the aircraft. The theatre bomber designation means nothing specific, new or different between the two main roles. At best can be a subrole, but it would mean that a theatre bomber is either a strategic bomber or a fighter ground attack aircraft. Which of the two is then the Tu-22?. Almost all the sources say the Tu-22 is a strategic bomber.

    Also the sources agree not with your comment about the refueling potential of the Tu-22, including the Tu-22M3. As example:

    http://ausairpower.net/APA-Backfire.html

    The Tupolev Tu-22M3 Backfire C
    ...
    The reshaped and stretched nose incorporated a revised refuelling probe design.
    ...

    http://www.airvectors.net/avtu22.html

    ...
    In the end, the Soviets compromised and yanked the refueling probes from the Backfire fleet. They could be easily put back on if need be and the Americans knew that, but the Americans also realized that the Soviet air tanker fleet was too small to support wide-scale long-range operations, as was the norm for the USAF Strategic Air Command.

    Finally, the Tu-22 is an strategic bomber, and must be used as strategic bomber, not as Fighter Ground Attack aircraft. Not because it means riskier situations, also the Fighter Ground Attack aircrafts must follow their own safety procedures, basically the problem is closer to the concept of overkill.

    http://www.russiadefence.net/t2625p650-pak-da-news#199503

    GarryB wrote:
    eehnie wrote:Also the sources agree not with your comment about the refueling potential of the Tu-22, including the Tu-22M3. As example:

    Do they provide any evidence of any ever being fitted with inflight refuelling equipment?

    Because that is what the US likes to suggest as that would violate a few agreements... believe that and you will believe Saddam had WMDs ready to attack the US and UK within 45 minutes and of course Iran has nuclear weapons right now...


    eehnie wrote:Finally, the Tu-22 is an strategic bomber, and must be used as strategic bomber, not as Fighter Ground Attack aircraft.

    Has not and will never be a strategic bomber... in the quote you posted above the USN and CIA accept this as fact... it is just the USAF that is fucked up and deluded.

    The reality is enough to hit hard the arguments without a serious technical basis. Note that the future Tu-22M3M variant aircrafts will come from upgraded aircrafts from previous variants, Tu-22M3 included.

    Insults to me can be allowed, but the reality will continue coming mercylessly vs the wrong arguments that will be always exposed. Also will come in the refered to the Tu-PAK-DA and the future long range shipborne maritime patrol UAVs that will assume most of the loitering work. An underperformer Tu-PAK-DA (compared to the modernized Tu-160 and Tu-22) is only real in the dreams of US supporters. Nothing more to say.
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    Hole

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    Re: PAK-DA: News

    Post  Hole on Wed May 02, 2018 4:20 pm

    What do you mean with "underperforming"?
    The PAK-DA could be subsonic and still be a superior aircraft. Long endurance. Stealth. More weapons.
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    LMFS

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    Re: PAK-DA: News

    Post  LMFS on Wed May 02, 2018 4:35 pm

    Maybe any of you can clarify a doubt that I have:

    would be a VLO flying wing design like the one hinted for the PAK-DA allow the aircraft to take off and deploy without even low frequency and OTH radars noticing it? I understand this would be a major element of nuclear deterrence, since it would allow it to remain unnoticed and essentially attack anywhere and anytime, very much like a SSBN (especially considering 5000+ km range for the Kh-102)

    I assume this is not 100% possible now with current strategic bombers, since they could be potentially tracked since their very departure but I am not sure that this is the case with current US early warning assets, do you have information on this issue?

    Thanks,

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    Militarov

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    Re: PAK-DA: News

    Post  Militarov on Wed May 02, 2018 11:28 pm

    eehnie wrote:GarryB, just to remember, and to put the things in the right place:

    http://www.russiadefence.net/t2625p625-pak-da-news#199173

    Militarov wrote:
    eehnie wrote:The Tu-22 would reach the US coast, at least Seattle, the problem would be the return. Likely would need two refueling operations, one going and other returning. I would have to think about which would be the best option (Tu-22 with refueling or Tu-95 without).

    Despite it there are lots of missions in Eurasia and over the sea that the Tu-22 can do. In this area the range really reachs until the areaas where the adversaries have high density of air defenses.

    Could you stop refering to Tu-22M as Tu-22, those two are very different machines.

    Furthermore i am not sure if you are aware that after START threaty their refueling capability was deleted and would require major modifications to regain it.

    And? It requires 6 months modernisation per bort to get refueling up and running. Where were we wrong exactly?

    You are still trying to say that Tu-22 and Tu-22M are the same aircraft or what lol1

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    Re: PAK-DA: News

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