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    PAK-DA: News

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    JohninMK

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    Re: PAK-DA: News

    Post  JohninMK on Wed Aug 23, 2017 8:10 pm

    T-47 wrote:
    I know you won't follow but still I'm asking, try to understand the thing that just because something is developed from doesn't make it a variant. And stop thinking so much about official comments. Why? Watch North Korea. Full of "official" statements.

    (Well I think all my words are going to be in vein  unshaven So I'll just ignore this from now. Unless eehnie can stop from being an "expert" and come down to normal level aka level 0. Which means facts and try to understand what others are saying not just keep blabbering about "official" links)
    Someone around here really doesn't understand large bureaucracies and their ability to hide things from the top.
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    SeigSoloyvov

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    Re: PAK-DA: News

    Post  SeigSoloyvov on Thu Aug 24, 2017 2:20 am

    JohninMK wrote:
    T-47 wrote:
    I know you won't follow but still I'm asking, try to understand the thing that just because something is developed from doesn't make it a variant. And stop thinking so much about official comments. Why? Watch North Korea. Full of "official" statements.

    (Well I think all my words are going to be in vein  unshaven So I'll just ignore this from now. Unless eehnie can stop from being an "expert" and come down to normal level aka level 0. Which means facts and try to understand what others are saying not just keep blabbering about "official" links)
    Someone around here really doesn't understand large bureaucracies and their ability to hide things from the top.

    Expecting Enhnie to stop being Enhie hell, you got a better chance of all the anti Assad factions in syria suddenly becoming pro-assad.
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    eehnie

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    Re: PAK-DA: News

    Post  eehnie on Thu Aug 24, 2017 2:01 pm

    Well T-47. I think you should revise your views, because you are not understanding well the technical meaning of the following concepts:

    - developed from
    - based on
    - inspired on
    - new design

    A design developed from or based on is a design were you begin from a previously solved solution. In this case you begin with an entire aircraft from which you begin to do some changes.

    A new design is a design were you begin with nothing. You have a need, a series of requirements that you must meet, and you have some ideas from other solutions to close problems in which you can inspire the new design.

    The biggest difference between both, is that while in a design developed from or based on you begin with all the technical documentation of the previous solution (you have it or you are able to rebuild it) and you use it, in a new design there is not this use (as basis) of technical documentation of previous solutions even having it.

    GarryB, Militarov and you failed to express and even understand this very, very, very basical technical principle. This is something that clearly put in doubt the technical knowledge of the people that claimed to have it. Like Militarov and Garry B. Technical posturing is very difficult to sustain.

    If you say the F-15 is developed from or based on the MiG-25, you must be able to prove that the designers of the F-15 (McDonnell Douglas) had acces to the technical documentation of the MiG-25 at the time of the design of the F-15 (late 1960s, early 1970s). In this case is very very unlikely, even can be ruled out because the US was in doubt until the mid 1970s, about if the MiG-25 was a fighter or an interceptor, and by then the F-15 was in production or almost in production. At best you can say the F-15 was inspired in the MiG-25.

    The case of the Tu-22, the MiG-25/31 or the Su-27/30/33/35 is obviously different in the refered to the access to the technicall documentation of the Tu-22, MiG-25 and Su-27 for the development. Obviously Tupolev, MiG and Sukhoi had access to the technical documentation of their previous design. And is reported that used it in the development of the Tu-22M, MiG-31, Su-30, Su-33 and Su-35, when you read "developed from" or "based on".

    Engineers have a lot easier and cheaper work if they have something to begin with. The claim that Tupolev hide a totally new aircraft (most expensive option) as an aircraft developed from a previous aircraft (cheaper option) is technically absurd. Unsustainable. As explained.


    Last edited by eehnie on Thu Aug 24, 2017 3:32 pm; edited 1 time in total

    Austin

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    Re: PAK-DA: News

    Post  Austin on Wed Nov 15, 2017 4:23 pm

    PAK DA will be cheaper than Tu-160, but will be able to replace all long-range aircraft

    Подробнее на ТАСС:
    http://tass.ru/armiya-i-opk/4730201


    "One of the main tasks assigned by the military department to the creators of the long-range aviation complex of the long-range aviation (PAK DA) is to ensure that the new aircraft functions as all three current missile carriers (Tu-160, Tu-95MS and Tu-22M3) much cheaper than the Tu-160, "- said the agency's interlocutor. According to him, "the tactical and technical assignment for the PAK DA is approved by the military, in the near future, with the conclusion of the contract, the production of design documentation will begin, with the subsequent manufacture of prototypes."

    Reducing the cost of development, production and operation of PAK DA will be partly facilitated by the fact that this aircraft will be subsonic. This, according to the source, will not affect its combat effectiveness in any way: the presence of high-precision long-range cruise missiles will allow striking without entering the enemy's air defense zone and not using supersonic regimes. Also, a subsonic aircraft is easier and cheaper to prepare for a flight, it uses less fuel.

    "Today, no country in the world, including such powerful military powers as Russia and the US, simply does not pull the design and construction of a supersonic bomber that meets all the criteria of the fifth generation," the TASS source said.

    The specialist did not specify the estimated value of the PAK YES, which appears in the customer's terms of reference.

    The cost of Tu-160

    Expert estimates of the cost of the Tu-160 aircraft range from $ 250 to $ 600 million (in 1993, the media called the sum of 6 billion rubles, which at the time corresponded to approximately $ 600 million). One hour of the missile carrier's flight (without combat use) costs, according to official figures for 2008, 580 thousand rubles (about $ 23.3 thousand). The cost of the American B-1B bomber, close to the Tu-160 for performance, is $ 317 million, the flight hour costs $ 57.8 thousand.
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    eehnie

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    Re: PAK-DA: News

    Post  eehnie on Wed Nov 15, 2017 5:01 pm

    To be chearper is right, to be able to replace all the current strategic bombers (including those in maritime work) is necessary for Russia, because Russia can avoid to make this effort more than once per warfare generation, but to underperform is not right.

    If the Tu-PAK-DA underperforms the current models, will be very likely a failure. If this is the case, the Tu-160 will overrun the Tu-PAK-DA in the long term. It means shorter life for the Tu-PAK-DA, and lower number of orders.
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    Singular_Transform

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    Re: PAK-DA: News

    Post  Singular_Transform on Wed Nov 15, 2017 9:26 pm

    Austin wrote:

    Expert estimates of the cost of the Tu-160 aircraft range from $ 250 to $ 600 million (in 1993, the media called the sum of 6 billion rubles, which at the time corresponded to approximately $ 600 million). One hour of the missile carrier's flight (without combat use) costs, according to official figures for 2008, 580 thousand rubles (about $ 23.3 thousand). The cost of the American B-1B bomber, close to the Tu-160 for performance, is $ 317 million, the flight hour costs $ 57.8 thousand.
    [/quote]

    The B-1A is the only US military aircraft the is close to the parameters of the Tu-160.

    B-1A cost is above 400 million 2017 dollars.
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    GarryB

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    Re: PAK-DA: News

    Post  GarryB on Sat Nov 18, 2017 1:07 am

    The B-1B is similar to the Tu-22M3 and not the Tu-160.

    Looking at the statistics is not helpful as the B-1B carries all its weapons internally, but most claims of its payload include external load... which is bullshit.

    The Tu-22M3 is faster than the B-1B and if it had inflight refuelling probe like the B-1B it would have rather good performance if still short of strategic.

    The Tu-22M3 has two 25 ton thrust engines, while the B-1B has four 13 ton thrust engines, so the thrust is very similar.

    the Tu-160 has twice as much thrust with four 25 ton thrust engines and much bigger internal bomb bays (2).

    Either way it just confirms what i have been saying all along.... high speed means high cost in terms of fuel and operational costs and what they need is a nice cheap to run plane like the Tu-95 as a numbers aircraft.

    50-70 Tu-160M2s will be useful for both strategic and theatre roles, but the main force being subsonic makes a lot of sense.

    I would have preferred a supercruising aircraft that used AB for short periods and dry thrust most of the time but a subsonic aircraft can have much more internal volume so fuel and bulky weapon loads.
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    KomissarBojanchev

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    Re: PAK-DA: News

    Post  KomissarBojanchev on Tue Dec 12, 2017 6:42 pm

    Lets say a US carrier group is spotted and needs to be destroyed and the PAK DAs are called. Won't it be an advantage for them to be able to go supersonic so they arrive in range of their target faster and escape faster before the F-18s get to them? Even if future Russian cruise missiles have 3 times as long range as X-22s, won't it be still important to go supersonic in case the PAK DAs encounter an F-18 patrol lets say 2000km from the carrier group?
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    Isos

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    Re: PAK-DA: News

    Post  Isos on Tue Dec 12, 2017 7:02 pm

    KomissarBojanchev wrote:Lets say a US carrier group is spotted and needs to be destroyed and the PAK DAs are called. Won't it be an advantage for them to be able to go supersonic so they arrive in range  of their target faster and escape faster before the F-18s get to them? Even if future Russian cruise missiles have 3 times as long range as X-22s, won't it be still important to go supersonic in case the PAK DAs encounter an F-18 patrol lets say 2000km from the carrier group?

    Unlikely to happen. F 18 don t have such range. The buddy buddy refueling won t help ...

    Kh 22 is almost at the max range of f 18 ... let alone a new version with increased range.
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    George1

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    Re: PAK-DA: News

    Post  George1 on Tue Dec 26, 2017 10:40 pm

    Russia will start making prototype model of future strategic bomber shortly - senator

    Research and development work is close to completion under the future multifunctional bomber project - the plane for subsequent replacement of Tu-22M3, Tu-95MS and Tu-160 bombers

    MOSCOW, December 24. /TASS/. Russia is close to development of the first prototype model of the future strategic bomber (PAK DA), defense and security committee chairman of the Federation Council Viktor Bondarev told TASS on Saturday.

    "We have already been very close to making the first prototype model," Bondarev said.

    Research and development work is close to completion under the future multifunctional bomber project - the plane for subsequent replacement of Tu-22M3, Tu-95MS and Tu-160 bombers, he said.

    PAK DA introduction into service is planned to start in 2025-2030 after tests, Bondarev noted.

    The new strategic bomber can be presented to the public in 2018 and the maiden flight of upgraded Tu-160M2 bomber is also scheduled in the same year, Russia’s deputy defense minister Yuri Borisov said earlier.


    More:
    http://tass.com/defense/982771
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    George1

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    Re: PAK-DA: News

    Post  George1 on Fri Feb 09, 2018 6:01 pm

    A few words about the PAK-DA bomber project

    The magazine Air & Cosmos gives interesting information about the project of the new Russian bomber PAK DA. So, it is reported that the competition for its creation was announced in 2007, the winner of which was the Tupolev Design Bureau in August 2009. The KB has signed a three-year contract with the Ministry of Defense of Russia on the R & D "Messenger". Within the framework of the research project of the Design Bureau, Tupolev prepared a draft "product 80", approved in the spring of 2013. On December 23, 2013, the UAC for its part signed a contract for a technical project of PAK DA, which was approved in 2016.



    Product 80 is a "flying wing" takeoff weight of 145 tons and a payload of 30 tons. PAK DA is almost twice as light as Tu-160 and is located between Tu-22M3 and Tu-95MS. Tu-160 weighs 275 tons, Tu-95MS 185 tons and Tu-22M3 weighs 124 tons. The head of long-range aviation Anatoly Yakovlev said that the PAK DA will be a plane created according to the "flying wing" scheme with subsonic speed and a range of 15,000 km without refueling. The aircraft will be equipped with two engines "Product of the Russian Federation" with a thrust of 23 tons, created on the basis of the engine NK-32-02 ("product P"). The company ODK-Kuznetsov began its development in December 2014.

    During a press conference in December 2014, Anatoly Yakovlev said that the prototype PAK DA will take off in 2019, and the aircraft will go to the combat units in 2023-2025. However, in 2015 the idea of ​​resuming production of the Tu-160M2 was accelerated and the PAK DA program was postponed to a later date. Deputy Defense Minister Yuri Borisov said that because of the Tu-160M2 program, the PAK DA project "will be postponed somewhat." It can be assumed that the plans for PAK DA have shifted to the right about five years.

    https://bmpd.livejournal.com/3088125.html
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    GunshipDemocracy

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    Re: PAK-DA: News

    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Mon Feb 12, 2018 1:44 am

    So either Piotr Butowski was using as base fanboys' art or fanboys knew something we dont Smile

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    Big_Gazza

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    Re: PAK-DA: News

    Post  Big_Gazza on Mon Feb 12, 2018 1:44 pm

    GunshipDemocracy wrote:So either Piotr Butowski was using as base fanboys' art or fanboys knew something we dont Smile

    I always felt it looked too much like a Manta Ray to be taken seriously...
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    archangelski

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    Re: PAK-DA: News

    Post  archangelski on Mon Feb 12, 2018 2:19 pm

    GunshipDemocracy wrote:So either Piotr Butowski was using as base fanboys' art or fanboys knew something we dont Smile


    More in line with the TsAGI model of a Tupolev design :


    marcellogo

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    Re: PAK-DA: News

    Post  marcellogo on Tue Feb 13, 2018 12:30 am

    Austin wrote:PAK DA will be cheaper than Tu-160, but will be able to replace all long-range aircraft

    Подробнее на ТАСС:
    http://tass.ru/armiya-i-opk/4730201


    "One of the main tasks assigned by the military department to the creators of the long-range aviation complex of the long-range aviation (PAK DA) is to ensure that the new aircraft functions as all three current missile carriers (Tu-160, Tu-95MS and Tu-22M3) much cheaper than the Tu-160, "- said the agency's interlocutor. According to him, "the tactical and technical assignment for the PAK DA is approved by the military, in the near future, with the conclusion of the contract, the production of design documentation will begin, with the subsequent manufacture of prototypes."

    Reducing the cost of development, production and operation of PAK DA will be partly facilitated by the fact that this aircraft will be subsonic.
    The specialist did not specify the estimated value of the PAK YES, which appears in the customer's terms of reference.

    The cost of Tu-160

    Expert estimates of the cost of the Tu-160 aircraft range from $ 250 to $ 600 million (in 1993, the media called the sum of 6 billion rubles, which at the time corresponded to approximately $ 600 million). One hour of the missile carrier's flight (without combat use) costs, according to official figures for 2008, 580 thousand rubles (about $ 23.3 thousand). The cost of the American B-1B bomber, close to the Tu-160 for performance, is $ 317 million, the flight hour costs $ 57.8 thousand.

    More than to the fact of being subsonic, it would be the relatively small dimension and being propelled by just two (not afterburning) engines to cut down cost dramatically.

    Developing a stealth frame can be very costly but once design is freezed such initial cost would be spread over the whole production.
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    Isos

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    Re: PAK-DA: News

    Post  Isos on Tue Feb 13, 2018 1:13 am

    What is "PAK YES" ?
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    George1

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    Re: PAK-DA: News

    Post  George1 on Tue Feb 13, 2018 1:14 am

    Isos wrote:What is "PAK YES" ?

    PAK-DA. It comes out "YES" in the google translation (da=yes) Very Happy , i will fix it
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    Isos

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    Re: PAK-DA: News

    Post  Isos on Tue Feb 13, 2018 1:20 am

    George1 wrote:
    Isos wrote:What is "PAK YES" ?

    PAK-DA. It comes out "YES" in the google translation (da=yes)  Very Happy , i will fix it

    lol1
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    Arctic_Fox

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    Re: PAK-DA: News

    Post  Arctic_Fox on Tue Feb 13, 2018 2:15 am

    not sure if i like this idea of "Smaller, cheaper and subsonic", seems like a downgrade to me in comparison with Tu-160.
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    PapaDragon

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    Re: PAK-DA: News

    Post  PapaDragon on Tue Feb 13, 2018 2:32 am

    Arctic_Fox wrote:not sure if i like this idea of "Smaller, cheaper and subsonic", seems like a downgrade to me in comparison with Tu-160.

    They are still getting Tu-160s so no problems

    Besides something has to do the low grade work, they can't run expensive birds for everything

    marcellogo

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    Re: PAK-DA: News

    Post  marcellogo on Tue Feb 13, 2018 10:13 am

    PapaDragon wrote:
    Arctic_Fox wrote:not sure if i like this idea of "Smaller, cheaper and subsonic", seems like a downgrade to me in comparison with Tu-160.

    They are still getting Tu-160s so no problems

    Besides something has to do the low grade work, they can't run expensive birds for everything

    Yes, also because having two different kind of approach, a big, fast supercruising bomber and a more affordable, very long range/time on station, subsonic but stealth plane would made things much more difficult for the counterpart.

    The presence of first one would need to keep almost all the F-22A in their actual bases on american territory when instead the presence of scores of the second , armed with hypersonic antiship missiles will be a constant menace for the CVN .

    In the meantime there are circulating the news that B-1B and B-2 would be retired as soon as B-21 would be produced in enough quantity.
    And rightly so, the Bone is not in any way comparable to a Tu-22M or Tu-160 as it reach just 1,3M so no clear advantage neither in comparison to the PAK-DA while the B-2 is a white elephant and will offer nothing substantially superior to the B-21.

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    GunshipDemocracy

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    Re: PAK-DA: News

    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Tue Feb 13, 2018 1:05 pm

    Big_Gazza wrote:
    GunshipDemocracy wrote:So either Piotr Butowski was using as base fanboys' art or fanboys knew something we dont Smile

    I always felt it looked too much like a Manta Ray to be taken seriously...

    especially in this camouflage Smile  But manta Ray has non stealth  inlet when its hungry  so to speak Smile




    archangelski wrote:

    More in line with the TsAGI model of a Tupolev design :

    Looks like a plastic toy model at fist sight Smile BTW I wonder how large cockpit there can be? enough to stretch legs? go to toilet? to prepare some food?

    marcellogo

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    Re: PAK-DA: News

    Post  marcellogo on Tue Feb 13, 2018 9:42 pm

    Isos wrote:What is "PAK YES" ?
    Automated translator took the acronym DA (Dalinska Avyiatsia-Long Range Aviation) for the plain word Da and translated it with Yes...
    Same with mashina being translated to road car instead than just machine.

    Install Yandex Browser to get rid of such inconvenience, being based on russian language it manage the automatic translation better.
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    GarryB

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    Re: PAK-DA: News

    Post  GarryB on Wed Feb 14, 2018 2:01 pm

    not sure if i like this idea of "Smaller, cheaper and subsonic", seems like a downgrade to me in comparison with Tu-160.

    Affordable makes sense because they can have more in service...

    Do you think the A-10 and Su-25 are rubbish because they are subsonic?

    All those supersonic fighters and no supersonic inflight refuelling aircraft...

    Supersonic costs money... why make a stand off cruise missile carrier supersonic?

    Makes rather more sense to make the missiles hypersonic...
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    Isos

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    Re: PAK-DA: News

    Post  Isos on Wed Feb 14, 2018 2:08 pm

    GarryB wrote:
    not sure if i like this idea of "Smaller, cheaper and subsonic", seems like a downgrade to me in comparison with Tu-160.

    Affordable makes sense because they can have more in service...

    Do you think the A-10 and Su-25 are rubbish because they are subsonic?

    All those supersonic fighters and no supersonic inflight refuelling aircraft...

    Supersonic costs money... why make a stand off cruise missile carrier supersonic?

    Makes rather more sense to make the missiles hypersonic...

    They would have hard time makeing Su-25 and A-10 supersonic. With armements they produce drag as no other fighter jet. Subsonic means less powerfull engine but more economic so they can fly at low lvl during all the mission which is better specially in a mountainous environement.

    Those two Aircraft are the best one ever build in my opinion. They are the most usefull for every war.

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