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    PAK-DA: News

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    eehnie

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    Re: PAK-DA: News

    Post  eehnie on Wed Aug 16, 2017 10:32 pm

    Militarov wrote:
    eehnie wrote:Then you admit that russianplanes can use different pages for aircrafts of the same model. The you recognize your previous lie. Good, good.

    And also do you admit the Long Range Aviation Command includes all the Long Range Russian aircrafts plus refuel aircrafts? Or not still...

    There is some reason why Russia considered necessary to unify all the long range bombers under a single command? or is only a random selection that mix different things and the Tu-22 was lucky of being placed with the Tu-160 and the Tu-95/142, while the Su-34 was not lucky enough...

    And then, the Long Range term has some sense in the designation of the Long Range Aviation Command? or is some random fancy of some Russian politician or general unrelated with the mission of the Command?

    Look at the reality man. Look at the reality.

    Tu-22 was replaced by Tu-22M, stop giving random nomenclature to bombers as you are pleased.

    Tu-22M is too heavy to be part of frontline aviation so its logical to place it in LRA even tho its range is basically on pair with new frontline strikers.

    lol, now the Tu-22 is in the Long Rang Command because of being big, instead of being Long Range, you know...
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    eehnie

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    Re: PAK-DA: News

    Post  eehnie on Wed Aug 16, 2017 11:58 pm

    http://structure.mil.ru/structure/forces/vks/news/more.htm?id=12123314@egNews

    https://translate.google.com/translate?hl=es&sl=ru&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fstructure.mil.ru%2Fstructure%2Fforces%2Fvks%2Fnews%2Fmore.htm%3Fid%3D12123314%40egNews

    Russian Ministery of Defense wrote:05/15/2017 (17:51)
    More than 60 air crews of VKS began preparations for the all-army stage of the Aviadart-2017 competition

    The Lipetsk State Training Center for Aviation Personnel and Military Tests of the Russian Defense Ministry began preparations for the all-army stage of the air training competition for flight crews "Aviadarts-2017".

    The crews of long-range aviation Tu-22, military transport Il-76, An-12, Su-27 fighters, Su-30SM, Su-35, MiG-29, Su-34, Su-24, Su attack planes -25 and the army aircraft Mi-8, Ka-52, Mi-28N, Mi-35, Mi-24.

    As part of the competition, the pilots of the Air and Space Forces will pass tests on theoretical and physical training, will compete in compliance with the standards of air reconnaissance, in the technique of piloting.

    The all-army stage will end with flights for combat use,
    During which the flight crew will work out the overcoming of air defense assets and the use of airborne weapons for ground targets at the range.

    The evaluation for these elements of the competition will be exhibited according to the means of objective control, as well as through visual observation of the members of the judging panel. The greatest number of points participants will receive for combat use and piloting technique.

    The All-Russian stage of the Aviadart-2017 contest will be held from June 14 to June 24 at the Pogonovo training ground in the Voronezh Region. Now the final work is being done to prepare the infrastructure and the target environment for the competition.

    In total, more than 60 crews of operational-tactical, long-range, military-transport aircraft will take part in the all-army stage of the "Aviadart-2017" competition
    And army aviation units and military units and military districts, will be involved in more than 100 units of aircraft.

    There are dozens of news like this, but our local "experts" allow not us to call Tu-22 to the Tu-22M variants and allow not us say the Tu-22 is a long range aircraft.

    GarryB and Militarov have lots of things to teach to the Russian Ministery of Defense about the Tu-22 (and also about the Tu-PAK-DA).
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    Militarov

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    Re: PAK-DA: News

    Post  Militarov on Thu Aug 17, 2017 1:55 am

    eehnie wrote:http://structure.mil.ru/structure/forces/vks/news/more.htm?id=12123314@egNews

    https://translate.google.com/translate?hl=es&sl=ru&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fstructure.mil.ru%2Fstructure%2Fforces%2Fvks%2Fnews%2Fmore.htm%3Fid%3D12123314%40egNews

    Russian Ministery of Defense wrote:05/15/2017 (17:51)
    More than 60 air crews of VKS began preparations for the all-army stage of the Aviadart-2017 competition

    The Lipetsk State Training Center for Aviation Personnel and Military Tests of the Russian Defense Ministry began preparations for the all-army stage of the air training competition for flight crews "Aviadarts-2017".

    The crews of long-range aviation Tu-22, military transport Il-76, An-12, Su-27 fighters, Su-30SM, Su-35, MiG-29, Su-34, Su-24, Su attack planes -25 and the army aircraft Mi-8, Ka-52, Mi-28N, Mi-35, Mi-24.

    As part of the competition, the pilots of the Air and Space Forces will pass tests on theoretical and physical training, will compete in compliance with the standards of air reconnaissance, in the technique of piloting.

    The all-army stage will end with flights for combat use,
    During which the flight crew will work out the overcoming of air defense assets and the use of airborne weapons for ground targets at the range.

    The evaluation for these elements of the competition will be exhibited according to the means of objective control, as well as through visual observation of the members of the judging panel. The greatest number of points participants will receive for combat use and piloting technique.

    The All-Russian stage of the Aviadart-2017 contest will be held from June 14 to June 24 at the Pogonovo training ground in the Voronezh Region. Now the final work is being done to prepare the infrastructure and the target environment for the competition.

    In total, more than 60 crews of operational-tactical, long-range, military-transport aircraft will take part in the all-army stage of the "Aviadart-2017" competition
    And army aviation units and military units and military districts, will be involved in more than 100 units of aircraft.

    There are dozens of news like this, but our local "experts" allow not us to call Tu-22 to the Tu-22M variants and allow not us say the Tu-22 is a long range aircraft.

    GarryB and Militarov have lots of things to teach to the Russian Ministery of Defense about the Tu-22 (and also about the Tu-PAK-DA).

    Right, because PRs surely are well versed in military terminology and nomenclature... oh wait, they are not.

    Tu-22 and Tu-22M are two very, very different machines and should never be placed under same nomenclature by anyone half serious.

    For all i care you can proceed doing so, shows alot anyways about your...knowledge lol1
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    eehnie

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    Re: PAK-DA: News

    Post  eehnie on Thu Aug 17, 2017 3:43 am

    Unfortunately for Militarov, he proved before which his real level of knowledge is. Being generous with him, Militarov is a person that in my country would not be allowed to teach mathematics to children over 12 years old, and would not be allowed to teach physics.

    GarryB likely even less.

    True "experts" in the Tu-22 and the Tu-PAK-DA.

    dunno dunno
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    GarryB

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    Re: PAK-DA: News

    Post  GarryB on Thu Aug 17, 2017 12:17 pm

    Dumb is to cut the quotes like you does and answer to this saying that the An-124 is not included.

    You claimed all long range Russian aircraft were part of long range aviation. The DA.

    I countered that claim by mentioning that the An-124 is also a long range aircraft in the VTA... transport aviation.

    Bumb is to say that the Long Range Aviation Command includes medium range aircrafts, when there are dozens of official links to news that call long range bomber to the Tu-22.

    They call the Tu-22M a long range bomber... they don't call it a strategic bomber.

    lol, now the Tu-22 is in the Long Rang Command because of being big, instead of being Long Range, you know...

    The Tu-22 is not in long range command because there is no such thing as long range command... you seem to be confusing Long Range Aviation (DA) with Strategic Air Command... SAC the US equivalent.

    The Tu-22 is obsolete and has been withdrawn from operational units for decades now.

    There are dozens of news like this, but our local "experts" allow not us to call Tu-22 to the Tu-22M variants and allow not us say the Tu-22 is a long range aircraft.

    the Tu-22 is not a variant of the Tu-22M and vice versa... they are different unrelated aircraft of different design and even use totally different components.

    Being generous with him, Militarov is a person that in my country would not be allowed to teach mathematics to children over 12 years old, and would not be allowed to teach physics.

    GarryB likely even less.

    If we had training in teaching 12 year olds perhaps we would better understand your logic and behaviour.

    If the Tu-22M is a strategic bomber then why was it NOT included in the START treaty that limited strategic weapons like strategic aircraft and ICBMs and SLBMs?

    Do you think taking the inflight refuelling probes off Bears or Blackjacks or B-52s would make them not strategic?

    What do you think is a strategic bomber?



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    eehnie

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    Re: PAK-DA: News

    Post  eehnie on Thu Aug 17, 2017 1:28 pm

    Sorry Lieutenant-General Kobylash, GarryB says now, Long Range Aviation Command, "there is not such thing". What a lot of things are we "learning" with him  dunno dunno

    Reality denial continues.
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    Militarov

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    Re: PAK-DA: News

    Post  Militarov on Thu Aug 17, 2017 10:13 pm

    eehnie wrote:Unfortunately for Militarov, he proved before which his real level of knowledge is. Being generous with him, Militarov is a person that in my country would not be allowed to teach mathematics to children over 12 years old, and would not be allowed to teach physics.

    GarryB likely even less.

    True "experts" in the Tu-22 and the Tu-PAK-DA.

    dunno dunno

    Quite sad for your country as i did teach OOP as assistant on technical college lol1

    Azi

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    Re: PAK-DA: News

    Post  Azi on Fri Aug 18, 2017 11:51 am

    First of all the Tu-22 ist not the same plane as Tu-22M. They are complete different only sharing the designation Tu-22.

    The concept of "sratetig bomber" shifted over the years. Normally it means a bomber who is able to act far behind enemy lines and bomb strategic targets (fabric, airfields, political centre etc.). The Su-34 is more capable in a strategic role, than any old stragic bomber from WW2, but it's not named a strategic bomber because of defintion today! The modern concept means a range of 6000 km or more, or simply said intercontinental range of interaction (armament included). So the Tu-22M is listed as strategic bomber, but based on old defintion. Complete empty the Tu-22M has a range of 6800 km, but with typical weapon payload the combat radius is only 2410 km. The big difference for Tu-22M is the evolution of modern AD systems, so the Tu-22M can't act that easy far behind enemy lines, because typical carried cruise missile have only range of up to 600 km. So the Tu-22M is today displaced from the role of strategic bomber to long range bomber only, this could easy switch again, when the Tu-22M is equipped with long range cruise missile (Kh-55 and all it's "children"). But why pimping up the Tu-22M extreme if it is intended to replace the Tu-22M with PAK-Da from 2025 on?
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    JohninMK

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    Re: PAK-DA: News

    Post  JohninMK on Fri Aug 18, 2017 12:13 pm

    Azi wrote: But why pimping up the Tu-22M extreme if it is intended to replace the Tu-22M with PAK-Da from 2025 on?

    Its not, PAK-DA will replace the Tu-95.

    Azi

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    Re: PAK-DA: News

    Post  Azi on Fri Aug 18, 2017 12:25 pm

    JohninMK wrote:
    Azi wrote: But why pimping up the Tu-22M extreme if it is intended to replace the Tu-22M with PAK-Da from 2025 on?

    Its not, PAK-DA will replace the Tu-95.
    I heard PAK-DA will replace both. The role of Tu-22M would be splitted between Su-34 und PAK-DA. From 2030 a replacement is more or less needed (~40-50 years of service). But maybe I'm wrong What a Face We will see, when first rollouts occur Wink
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    Big_Gazza

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    Re: PAK-DA: News

    Post  Big_Gazza on Fri Aug 18, 2017 1:54 pm

    Azi wrote:
    JohninMK wrote:
    Azi wrote: But why pimping up the Tu-22M extreme if it is intended to replace the Tu-22M with PAK-Da from 2025 on?

    Its not, PAK-DA will replace the Tu-95.
    I heard PAK-DA will replace both. The role of Tu-22M would be splitted between Su-34 und PAK-DA. From 2030 a replacement is more or less needed (~40-50 years of service). But maybe I'm wrong What a Face We will see, when first rollouts occur Wink

    Tu-22M have a much greater payload and combat radius (~24T/2400km) than Su-34 (8-12T/1000km) (*).  Tu-22M also has a significant internals weapon bay, suitable for carrying heavy AShMs, and this makes them excel in the "long" range anti-shipping strike role.  The Su-34, as good as it is, is not a replacement for the Tu-22M.

    (*) based on admittedly suspect wiki performance data

    Azi

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    Re: PAK-DA: News

    Post  Azi on Fri Aug 18, 2017 2:21 pm

    Big_Gazza wrote:
    Azi wrote:
    JohninMK wrote:
    Azi wrote: But why pimping up the Tu-22M extreme if it is intended to replace the Tu-22M with PAK-Da from 2025 on?

    Its not, PAK-DA will replace the Tu-95.
    I heard PAK-DA will replace both. The role of Tu-22M would be splitted between Su-34 und PAK-DA. From 2030 a replacement is more or less needed (~40-50 years of service). But maybe I'm wrong What a Face We will see, when first rollouts occur Wink

    Tu-22M have a much greater payload and combat radius (~24T/2400km) than Su-34 (8-12T/1000km) (*).  Tu-22M also has a significant internals weapon bay, suitable for carrying heavy AShMs, and this makes them excel in the "long" range  anti-shipping strike role.  The Su-34, as good as it is, is not a replacement for the Tu-22M.

    (*) based on admittedly suspect wiki performance data
    I know, I know! But in this link they wrote...
    sputniknews int. wrote:"The new aircraft is being designed to replace all three bombers currently in service with the Russian long-range aviation, including the Tu-22M3 long-range bomber and the Tu-95 and Tu-160 (aka the White Swan) strategic bombers."
    "Russias next gen. bomber "- sputniknews int.

    But I don't trust the news, because why should PAK-DA replace the Tu-160M2? The difference of production is only a few years, so a new bomber should be replaced by a 5 years younger bomber? That's bullshit! PAK-DA and Tu-160M2 will coexist for a long long time. I think it's much advertising trick in this article...we need PAK-DA because...

    The Tu-22M3 is a formidable bomber, I love the design, I love the parameters, I love the role. The USA have now simply no bomber in the role of the Tu-22M3. But let's be realistic, the Tu-22M variants will be in 2030 40-50 years old. A successor is not urgent needed, but there is no project in pipeline and all we can read is that Tu-22M should be replaced by PAK-DA.

    Realistic I think for future that Tu-22M3 will shrink in numbers, a part of the portfolio will be stolen by Su-34 another part by PAK-DA. The remaining Tu-22M3 will be in service till 2050 or so. But that's only my personal opinion.

    I would love to see a successor of Tu-22M3 with similar characteristics. The role of Tu-22M is very useful, for example in Syria. Overall I love the current mix of RuAF, I'm not a fan of reducing all types of aircraft to a generalist. The F-35 project is the biggest military desaster of UsAF, the F-35 should be everything but is never better than a specialist. I love the versatility of RuAf with different kind of aircrafts. And I would love to see some more specialist, like a handful of gunship for smashing terrorist in asymmetric conflicts (but again that's my personal opinion).
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    eehnie

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    Re: PAK-DA: News

    Post  eehnie on Fri Aug 18, 2017 7:34 pm

    Militarov wrote:
    eehnie wrote:Unfortunately for Militarov, he proved before which his real level of knowledge is. Being generous with him, Militarov is a person that in my country would not be allowed to teach mathematics to children over 12 years old, and would not be allowed to teach physics.

    GarryB likely even less.

    True "experts" in the Tu-22 and the Tu-PAK-DA.

    dunno dunno

    Quite sad for your country as i did teach OOP as assistant on technical college lol1

    Quite sad your country man. Obviously is not an industrial country. Quite poor level if you are allowed to teach something (likely not true), when you sneak as fast as possible when linear or surface integration are mentioned (as example). I was learning them at 18, between the basic mathematical formation of the first year in the engineering school. Surely like Mindstorm did too in a very different country.

    Stop posturing man, you have very short way with it. dunno dunno
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    eehnie

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    Re: PAK-DA: News

    Post  eehnie on Fri Aug 18, 2017 8:04 pm

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    Militarov

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    Re: PAK-DA: News

    Post  Militarov on Sat Aug 19, 2017 12:11 am

    Azi wrote:
    JohninMK wrote:
    Azi wrote: But why pimping up the Tu-22M extreme if it is intended to replace the Tu-22M with PAK-Da from 2025 on?

    Its not, PAK-DA will replace the Tu-95.
    I heard PAK-DA will replace both. The role of Tu-22M would be splitted between Su-34 und PAK-DA. From 2030 a replacement is more or less needed (~40-50 years of service). But maybe I'm wrong What a Face We will see, when first rollouts occur Wink

    Yes, that is the idea. Intermediate and strike roles will be completely passed to Su-34 while "long-intermediate" and loitering missions will be on PAK-DAs wings.
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    Militarov

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    Re: PAK-DA: News

    Post  Militarov on Sat Aug 19, 2017 12:14 am

    eehnie wrote:
    Militarov wrote:
    eehnie wrote:Unfortunately for Militarov, he proved before which his real level of knowledge is. Being generous with him, Militarov is a person that in my country would not be allowed to teach mathematics to children over 12 years old, and would not be allowed to teach physics.

    GarryB likely even less.

    True "experts" in the Tu-22 and the Tu-PAK-DA.

    dunno dunno

    Quite sad for your country as i did teach OOP as assistant on technical college lol1

    Quite sad your country man. Obviously is not an industrial country. Quite poor level if you are allowed to teach something (likely not true), when you sneak as fast as possible when linear or surface integration are mentioned (as example). I was learning them at 18, between the basic mathematical formation of the first year in the engineering school. Surely like Mindstorm did too in a very different country.

    Stop posturing man, you have very short way with it. dunno dunno

    thumbsup

    Seems you dont even know what OOP is tho lol1
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    Militarov

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    Re: PAK-DA: News

    Post  Militarov on Sat Aug 19, 2017 12:24 am


    https://flatearthscienceandbible.com/2016/02/16/introduction-to-the-flat-earth-how-it-works-and-why-we-believe-it/

    Here i have official source explaining Flat Earth theory.

    Obey mortal i gave you link.
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    GarryB

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    Re: PAK-DA: News

    Post  GarryB on Sat Aug 19, 2017 12:21 pm

    Its not, PAK-DA will replace the Tu-95.

    20 years ago when the Tu-95 was strategic only and the Tu-160 was strategic only then the Tu-22M3 was necessary for theatre bombing and conventional bombing because the Bear and Blackjack were strategic nuclear cruise missile carriers as their only role.

    Today the Blackjack and Bear have been used in conventional cruise missile strike roles.

    The Backfire continues to be used because of its performance with large numbers of small dumb bombs.

    One of the requirements of the PAK DA is to combine the roles of the Tu-95 and the Tu-22M3.

    This is also why it will likely be subsonic because the size it will need to be to carry a large internal payload of conventional weapons will make it rather big, but carrying all its weapons inside will reduce drag and RCS to a minimum... in theatre missions the extra fuel for strategic missions can be offloaded and replaced with a heavier conventional weapons load.

    I heard PAK-DA will replace both. The role of Tu-22M would be splitted between Su-34 und PAK-DA.

    I have read the same where the Su-34 can take on the role of some shorter ranged missions the Tu-22M3 would undertake... including in the anti shipping role with light versions of Brahmos and perhaps Zircon, while the PAK DA will take over longer ranged missions.

    Tu-22M have a much greater payload and combat radius (~24T/2400km) than Su-34 (8-12T/1000km) (*). Tu-22M also has a significant internals weapon bay, suitable for carrying heavy AShMs, and this makes them excel in the "long" range anti-shipping strike role. The Su-34, as good as it is, is not a replacement for the Tu-22M.

    (*) based on admittedly suspect wiki performance data

    Except that the Su-34 can use inflight refuelling to greatly increase range, while the Tu-22M3 cannot.

    The USA have now simply no bomber in the role of the Tu-22M3.

    Actually in terms of performance the B-1B is actually quite similar.

    Obey mortal i gave you link.

    As Mil is hinting Eehnie... it is not enough to have a link... you have to use your brain and think about things...

    For instance if the PAK DA is replacing the Tu-95... well that makes sense if both are relatively cheap and subsonic, because we know they are building new upgraded Tu-160s... if the PAK DA was supersonic then there would be no point... it would make more sense just to make the PAK DA in greater numbers to replace the Backfire, Blackjack, and Bear.

    The fact is that a strategic bomber than can supersonically dash for short periods makes a lot of sense but it is not cheap to buy or operate.

    A new version of the Tu-160 with more powerful engines and new lighter materials and new electronics and more capable avionics might allow for super cruising performance after 4,000km of flight... after it has burned off a few tons of fuel and is a bit lighter and approaching the northern coastline of Canada.

    That would make it an even more formidable weapon as it will be fast but not burn up fuel so rapidly, meaning even better range and performance.

    A subsonic flying wing with enormous internal weapon capacity would make the Tu-22M3 a little redundant for longer range missions... the shorter ranged missions could be performed by the Fullback, or just 5,000km ranged cruise missiles.

    Having three heavy bombers was necessary because two were for strategic missions leaving the lighter Backfire for continental european and chinese targets and of course US carrier groups.

    With the merging of missions to allow the strategic bombers to carry out conventional strikes (mainly from the huge improvement in terminal accuracy of Russian cruise missiles to allow conventional warheads to become effective) means a separate conventional long range strike bomber is not longer critical.

    It appears the Tu-160 has lost its bomb aiming system in the upgrades which suggests it will be a cruise missile carrier only, so the burden of bomber moves to the PAK DA I would suggest.


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    George1

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    Re: PAK-DA: News

    Post  George1 on Sat Aug 19, 2017 1:36 pm

    I think PAK-DA will replace Tu-95 and Tu-160 in nuclear role and Tu-160M will replace Tu-22M3


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    Militarov

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    Re: PAK-DA: News

    Post  Militarov on Sat Aug 19, 2017 3:20 pm

    George1 wrote:I think PAK-DA will replace Tu-95 and Tu-160 in nuclear role and Tu-160M will replace Tu-22M3

    Tu-160s are primary cruise missile carriers, so its quite doubtful.

    Tu-22M will be replaced by something that has the ability to loiter alot and use conventional payload, hence partial replacement by PAK-DA, partially by Su-34s.

    Tu-95 shall be replaced completely by PAK-DA on the other hand.
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    SeigSoloyvov

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    Re: PAK-DA: News

    Post  SeigSoloyvov on Sat Aug 19, 2017 6:23 pm

    It's been months since I looked into the Tu-160's.

    Don't they have like 16 of these in service right now? how many are the new M2 model?.

    I gotta see if they finished that factory yet and if they are actually building the new 160's.
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    Militarov

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    Re: PAK-DA: News

    Post  Militarov on Sat Aug 19, 2017 6:29 pm

    SeigSoloyvov wrote:It's been months since I looked into the Tu-160's.

    Don't they have like 16 of these in service right now? how many are the new M2 model?.

    I gotta see if they finished that factory yet and if they are actually building the new 160's.

    Yeah, 16 still exist and all of them are in use.

    Kazan aviation plant is i belive to expected to build new Tu-160M2.

    None of the models in service are Tu-160M2. But all of them will be modernised to M standard to fill the gap till Tu-160M2s come off the lines.
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    PapaDragon

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    Re: PAK-DA: News

    Post  PapaDragon on Sat Aug 19, 2017 6:31 pm

    SeigSoloyvov wrote:It's been months since I looked into the Tu-160's.

    Don't they have like 16 of these in service right now? how many are the new M2 model?.

    I gotta see if they finished that factory yet and if they are actually building the new 160's.

    First two M2s will be built from unfinished airframes they have in storage

    Titanium welding system has been built from scratch for production of new aircraft

    Tu160s in service will be upgraded to M2S standard as part of maintenance cycle

    That's the plan that is...
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    eehnie

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    Re: PAK-DA: News

    Post  eehnie on Sat Aug 19, 2017 6:41 pm

    Militarov wrote:
    eehnie wrote:
    Militarov wrote:
    eehnie wrote:Unfortunately for Militarov, he proved before which his real level of knowledge is. Being generous with him, Militarov is a person that in my country would not be allowed to teach mathematics to children over 12 years old, and would not be allowed to teach physics.

    GarryB likely even less.

    True "experts" in the Tu-22 and the Tu-PAK-DA.

    dunno dunno

    Quite sad for your country as i did teach OOP as assistant on technical college lol1

    Quite sad your country man. Obviously is not an industrial country. Quite poor level if you are allowed to teach something (likely not true), when you sneak as fast as possible when linear or surface integration are mentioned (as example). I was learning them at 18, between the basic mathematical formation of the first year in the engineering school. Surely like Mindstorm did too in a very different country.

    Stop posturing man, you have very short way with it. dunno dunno

    thumbsup

    Seems you dont even know what OOP is tho lol1

    Fearing to say something else than OOP? lol1 lol1
    avatar
    eehnie

    Posts : 1552
    Points : 1577
    Join date : 2015-05-13

    Re: PAK-DA: News

    Post  eehnie on Sat Aug 19, 2017 6:45 pm

    Militarov wrote:

    https://flatearthscienceandbible.com/2016/02/16/introduction-to-the-flat-earth-how-it-works-and-why-we-believe-it/

    Here i have official source explaining Flat Earth theory.

    Obey mortal i gave you link.

    lol, must I think you know not what a gravitational field means? or must I think you continue making a joke of yourself...

    Are you losing your time with this instead of proving your knowledge on OOP?

    Are you comparing the links of the Russian Ministery of Defense with this?

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    Re: PAK-DA: News

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