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    PAK-DA: News

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    eehnie

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    Re: PAK-DA: News

    Post  eehnie on Sun Feb 19, 2017 1:11 pm

    GarryB wrote:
    Russia thinks not like you, GarryB. To wait to the Tu-PAK-DA to restart the productionof strategic bombers means 10 years of delay in serial production, and Russia wants not to wait.

    First flight for Tu-160M2 is 2018 but serial production wont start till about 2023.

    First PAK DA design is supposed to be flight tested in 2019 but serial production wont start until 2025.

    5 years ago there was no plan to restart production of the Tu-160... ideas perhaps, but no concrete decision... they could just as easily have decided to just make supersonic PAK DA instead of making Tu-160M2 and then PAK DA if it was supersonic... the delay would be less than 5 years because making a factory able to build precision stealth structures is not cheap or simple... but you are going to need it whether you are building Tu-160M2s or PAK DAs.

    This is not realistict. Where come from this data? It must be from very old projections. Not updated. Do you have some link?

    When the restart of the production of the Tu-160 was approved the timeline for the Tu-PAK-DA was increased, like we can see in this article:

    http://www.strategic-culture.org/news/2016/12/12/russia-renew-production-tu-160-strategic-bombers.html

    n April 2015, Russian Defense Minister Gen. Sergei Shoigu announced the decision to resume the production of Tu-160 in a modernized version - the Tu-160M2 - and move to the finalization of a new generation bomber PAK DA at a later date.
    ...
    By the end of 2016, the upgrade of the Tu-160M2 (NATO reporting name: Blackjack) supersonic, variable-sweep strategic bomber fleet to Tu-160M2 standard is ahead of schedule. The technical documentation is expected to be fully digitized this month. The maiden flight is shifted from 2019 to 2018 with the tests complete in 2021. Then, the Kazan Aircraft Plant will start serial production. The modernization will increase the aircraft’s life span for another 30 years. The Russian military plans to have 50 aircraft upgraded to the M2 standard.
    ...
    Russia is working on the PAK DA («prospective aviation complex for long-range aviation») new generation strategic bomber. The development is being delayed with the first unit to appear between 2020 and 2025.
    ...
    Actually, the Tu-160M2 is almost a new plane. The only thing left unchanged is the airframe.
    ...

    For the Tu-160 the design phase will be significantly shorter, the testing phase will be significantly shorter and the preparation for the serial production phase will be significantly shorter. The process of design, test and launch of serial production of a variant, is not like the process for a completely new aircraft. This is the reality. The Tu-160 is now ahead of the schedule after doing the entire digitalization of the documents, the most arduous part of the process. The contruction of the first prototype is to begin fast this year, and like the first fly has been moved one year earlier surely the begin of the serial production can be moved also to 2020.

    For the Tu-PAK-DA, the last reports are talking about the first fly (between 2020 and 2025) which means a difference until 7 years for the first fly. In this case Russia has not incentive or interest in to complete the process in the lower possible timeline. Their interest is more in to complete an advanced design for the next 50 years. Despite it, I hope the first fly to be earlier than 2025, because if the difference between the first fly reachs 7 years, the difference in the begin of the serial production can be bigger than 10 years.

    I think it would be possible for the Tu-PAK-DA to have the first unit ready around 2025 (it would mean to be in the situation of the Su-PAK-FA in 2015, and remember that today there is not still serial production of the Su-PAK-FA). For it the first fly of the Tu-PAK-DA should be around 2022 and the serial production would not begin befor 2028-2030. But even this would mean an ambitious timeline for the Tu-PAK-DA.


    Last edited by eehnie on Mon Feb 20, 2017 12:57 pm; edited 2 times in total

    Austin

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    Developers defined preliminary design of a new strategic bomber

    Post  Austin on Fri Feb 24, 2017 5:04 am

    Developers defined preliminary design of a new strategic bomber

    https://rns.online/military/Razrabotchiki-zaschitili-avanproekt-novogo-strategicheskogo-raketonostsa-2017-02-23/

    In Russia, work is underway to create a new generation of strategic missile (PAK DA, PAK DA), which will come to replace the Tu-22M3 and Tu-160, said in an interview RNS scientific director of FSUE "GosNIIAS" Academician Yevgeny Fedosov.

    "According to the prospective long-range aviation complex - PAK DA - we even defined preliminary design", - said Fedosov, responding to a question about the work of the PAK DA.

    According Fedosov, VCS requirements for the new long-range aircraft are very high. "The military is not too lazy, and write whatever they think. This strategic bomber, and operational-tactical missile bomber, even a long-range interceptor and a possible platform for spacecraft launches, " 'said Fedosov.


    He noted that the development and take into account the economic factor. "Tu-160 - a very expensive. The military decided to make a new airplane is cheaper, but greater in number. He should immediately replace three aircraft - the line Tu-22M3 and Tu-95MS and Tu-160. The solution adopted is: preliminary design score? Came to the conclusion that you need to build, "- said the academician.

    At the same time, Fedosov approved the reopening of the modernized Tu-160m2 in Kazan. "I think that Tu-160 - a masterpiece that is still unsurpassed" - Fedosov said.
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    George1

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    Re: PAK-DA: News

    Post  George1 on Wed Mar 01, 2017 1:19 pm

    Russian manufacturer creates first full-size model of future strategic bomber — source

    A future bomber is believed to incorporate all the latest achievements in the stealth technology, making the plane invisible to radars

    MOSCOW, March 1. /TASS/. The first full-size model of Russia’s future long-range bomber PAK DA, being developed for the Aerospace Force, has been created by the Tupolev company, a source in Russia’s defense-industrial complex told TASS.

    "Several scale mock-ups of the PAK DA bomber have been made of composite materials. Also, there is a full-size mock-up made of wood. All models are based on the flying wing concept," the source said.

    Its airframe will be made of radar-absorbent material. All weapons will be placed inside the fuselage.

    "Also, PAK DA is to be equipped with the latest radioelectronic warfare equipment of domestic manufacture, unparalleled in terms of effectiveness," the source said.

    Another source in the Russian defense industry said the first test sample of a future bomber will perform its first flight by 2025. The plane will have a subsonic speed.

    TASS has no official confirmation of these data.

    Deputy Defense Minister Yuri Borisov said earlier the PAK DA bomber may be presented to the public at large in 2018. Its parameters will exceed by far those of the existing bombers. The original plan was the first bombers would be delivered in 2023-2025, while the test flights were to be carried out in 2019-2020. Later, it was announced that the bomber’s creation was postponed in favor of resuming the serial production of the Tupolev-160 bomber.


    More:
    http://tass.com/defense/933391
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    berhoum

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    PAK-DA News

    Post  berhoum on Wed Mar 01, 2017 2:35 pm

    1st prototype of the future bomber waited for 2025 and either on 2018 as suggests him(it) Borisov last year !

    Beautiful bird russia



    http://tass.ru/armiya-i-opk/4060663

    https://lenta.ru/news/2017/03/01/maket/

    hoom

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    Re: PAK-DA: News

    Post  hoom on Thu Mar 02, 2017 3:23 am

    Russian manufacturer creates first full-size model of future strategic bomber — source
    They used the windtunnel BWB model pic again cheers
    Other sites are using this fan-art (I think?) one instead/as well

    I like that concept too Smile
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    Militarov

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    Re: PAK-DA: News

    Post  Militarov on Fri Mar 03, 2017 12:15 am

    hoom wrote:
    Russian manufacturer creates first full-size model of future strategic bomber — source
    They used the windtunnel BWB model pic again cheers
    Other sites are using this fan-art (I think?) one instead/as well

    I like that concept too Smile

    Yes, that one is fan art.
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    PapaDragon

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    Re: PAK-DA: News

    Post  PapaDragon on Fri Mar 03, 2017 12:20 am

    berhoum wrote:1st prototype of the future bomber waited for 2025 and either on 2018 as suggests him(it) Borisov last year !

    Beautiful bird russia



    ...............

    Is that from Homeworld: Deserts of Kharak? confused
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    berhoum

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    PAK-DA: News

    Post  berhoum on Fri Mar 03, 2017 10:01 am

    PapaDragon wrote:

    Is that from Homeworld: Deserts of Kharak? 

    hello It is battlefield 4 to wallpaper hd 1920x1080  Smile
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    eehnie

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    Re: PAK-DA: News

    Post  eehnie on Fri Mar 03, 2017 7:39 pm

    This comment:

    http://www.russiadefence.net/t1803p525-is-russia-safe-from-f-22-and-2#188525

    must return to this topic.

    It is disgusting to see how the comments are moved and I appear in topics where I do not want to be.

    It is disgusting to see how while my answer was moved (likely by GarryB), the comment of GarryB I was answering remains in this same page.
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    GarryB

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    Re: PAK-DA: News

    Post  GarryB on Sat Mar 04, 2017 10:04 am

    I didn't move anything.

    Your comment is as expected however... jumping to conclusions seems to be a habit of yours.

    There seem to be quite a few posts in that thread that really belong here as they relate to the PAK DA rather than the threat to Russia of the B-2 and F-35, but I don't have time right now.

    I will likely have a shift around tomorrow, if i get time.
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    eehnie

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    Re: PAK-DA: News

    Post  eehnie on Sat Mar 04, 2017 10:26 am

    GarryB wrote:I didn't move anything.

    Your comment is as expected however... jumping to conclusions seems to be a habit of yours.

    There seem to be quite a few posts in that thread that really belong here as they relate to the PAK DA rather than the threat to Russia of the B-2 and F-35, but I don't have time right now.

    I will likely have a shift around tomorrow, if i get time.

    To move comments without say who does it, why and where is habitual practice in this forum and is only fault of the mods.

    Who did it then? To say that you likely did it was not a conclusion, was a likely option.
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    George1

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    Re: PAK-DA: News

    Post  George1 on Fri Apr 14, 2017 2:00 am

    Russia to develop first prototype of next-generation strategic bomber by early 2020s

    MOSCOW, April 13. /TASS/. The first experimental prototype of Russia’s next-generation strategic bomber abbreviated as PAK DA is expected to be developed in the early 2020s and the relevant contract has been signed, a source in the country’s defense industry told TASS on Thursday.

    The first stage of the R&D work on the new strategic bomber was completed in 2016, the source said.

    "Now we are switching to the second stage: the development of design documentation and further on - the manufacture of the aircraft’s experimental prototypes. The military has signed a contract for the fulfillment of works at this stage with the United Aircraft-Building Corporation. The first experimental prototype is expected to be manufactured in the early 2020s," the source said.

    The aircraft will be based on the flying wing design and "other schemes are not being considered or discussed. This is the sole and the approved version," the source said.

    TASS does not have official confirmation of this information.

    Another source in the Russian defense industry earlier told TASS that Tupolev Aircraft Company had already made a full-size wooden mockup model of the PAK DA and also several smaller mockups of composite materials.

    PAK DA next-generation strategic bomber

    The Perspective Airborne Complex of Long-Range Aviation (PAK DA) is a Russian next-generation strategic bomber being developed by the Tupolev aircraft manufacturer. R&D work on the bomber started in 2009. The PAK DA will fly at subsonic speeds and carry weapons inside its body. The aircraft’s design will maximally use radar-absorbing materials (the stealth technology).

    The bomber was initially planned to start arriving for the Russian Armed Forces in 2023-2025 and the first test flights were scheduled for 2019-2020. It emerged later that the bomber’s development had been rescheduled due to the resumed serial production of the Tu-160 strategic missile carrier.

    The first flight of the PAK DA experimental prototype is planned for 2025.


    More:
    http://tass.com/defense/941152
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    Isos

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    Re: PAK-DA: News

    Post  Isos on Wed Jun 21, 2017 10:25 pm

    Found this in a french forum. From an book about Tu-160. It's a Tu-170(??) according to them.


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    Militarov

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    Re: PAK-DA: News

    Post  Militarov on Wed Jun 21, 2017 10:31 pm

    Isos wrote:Found this in a french forum. From an book about Tu-160. It's a Tu-170(??) according to them.



    Tu-170 was some kind of very early development for conventional bomber on Tu-160 base to evade certain limitations enforced by SALT threaty. It never went further from idea from what i am aware, so this is probably just fan art.
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    Isos

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    Re: PAK-DA: News

    Post  Isos on Wed Jun 21, 2017 10:52 pm

    I didn't know. It looks cool with the engines place like that. What do you mean by conventional ? Tu-160 has nothing more than a conventional bomber.
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    eehnie

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    Re: PAK-DA: News

    Post  eehnie on Tue Jul 11, 2017 4:33 pm


    There is not a chance that after more than 30 years, the future Tu-PAK-DA has inferior features than the Tu-160 in key variables (like the speed).

    If this would be true the Tu-PAK-DA would be a total failure because the orders of new aircrafts would continue with the Tu-160.

    Russia knows it and will not fall on this. And with Tupolev in charge of both projects, their wish of success for both is assured (in fact the future of the company depends of it).
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    Militarov

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    Re: PAK-DA: News

    Post  Militarov on Tue Jul 11, 2017 10:23 pm

    eehnie wrote:
    There is not a chance that after more than 30 years, the future Tu-PAK-DA has inferior features than the Tu-160 in key variables (like the speed).

    If this would be true the Tu-PAK-DA would be a total failure because the orders of new aircrafts would continue with the Tu-160.

    Russia knows it and will not fall on this. And with Tupolev in charge of both projects, their wish of success for both is assured (in fact the future of the company depends of it).

    Different concepts, uncomparable.

    Its like i just claimed that B-58 Hustler was far better bomber than B-52. Or some similar comparation, choose one of your own.
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    GarryB

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    Re: PAK-DA: News

    Post  GarryB on Wed Jul 12, 2017 6:32 am

    The PAK FA is slower than the MiG-31... is it a failure too?

    Speed is a factor, but is it the critical factor?

    Even supersonic bombers like the Tu-160 don't fly at supersonic speed all the way to their launch positions and back... they normally fly high subsonic to approach the danger area and then fly supersonic dash to get closer and then launch and supersonic dash out of range of enemy fighter/air defences and then subsonic home.

    For a subsonic bomber the difference is minor if fitted with long range hypersonic cruise missiles able to perform that high speed dash in the danger areas.
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    eehnie

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    Re: PAK-DA: News

    Post  eehnie on Wed Jul 12, 2017 7:39 am

    GarryB wrote:The PAK FA is slower than the MiG-31... is it a failure too?

    Speed is a factor, but is it the critical factor?

    Even supersonic bombers like the Tu-160 don't fly at supersonic speed all the way to their launch positions and back... they normally fly high subsonic to approach the danger area and then fly supersonic dash to get closer and then launch and supersonic dash out of range of enemy fighter/air defences and then subsonic home.

    For a subsonic bomber the difference is minor if fitted with long range hypersonic cruise missiles able to perform that high speed dash in the danger areas.

    The MiG-31 is an interceptor. This is a real difference in role between the MiG-31 and the Su-PAK-FA. Not like in the case militarov said.

    If we compare the Su-PAK-FA with other aircrafts of its same or very close role like the Su-35, Su-30, Su-33, Su-27, MiG-35 or MiG-29, the speed is very close. Would you imagine a Mach 1.3 fighter today? We would not be very kind, even the F-35 is Mach 1.6+.

    Also we can compare the MiG-41-PAK-DP with the MiG-31 and the MiG-25, and we will see like the future interceptor falls not to lower speed level. Would you imagine a Mach 2 MiG-41? The same.


    Last edited by eehnie on Wed Jul 12, 2017 7:52 am; edited 2 times in total
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    eehnie

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    Re: PAK-DA: News

    Post  eehnie on Wed Jul 12, 2017 7:43 am

    Militarov wrote:
    eehnie wrote:
    There is not a chance that after more than 30 years, the future Tu-PAK-DA has inferior features than the Tu-160 in key variables (like the speed).

    If this would be true the Tu-PAK-DA would be a total failure because the orders of new aircrafts would continue with the Tu-160.

    Russia knows it and will not fall on this. And with Tupolev in charge of both projects, their wish of success for both is assured (in fact the future of the company depends of it).

    Different concepts, uncomparable.

    Its like i just claimed that B-58 Hustler was far better bomber than B-52. Or some similar comparation, choose one of your own.

    Lol, well. It will be interesting to see you trying to prove a real divission of roles inside the role of strategic bombing (long range).

    You can begin if you wish.

    Mindstorm

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    Re: PAK-DA: News

    Post  Mindstorm on Wed Jul 12, 2017 9:54 pm


    GarryB wrote:Even supersonic bombers like the Tu-160 don't fly at supersonic speed all the way to their launch positions and back


    Well Garry ,that depend entirely on the mission to execute, the situation and even more the quality level of opponent ; that said the core mission of Tu-160/M/M2 -continuous cyclical delivery of nuclear or conventional strategic cruise missile toward the most important enemy key military assets to achieve, rapid degradation of its capabilities - would be executed entirely at supersonic speed , at an average speed Mach 1,3 (more than double the average speed of foreign subsonic strategic bombers) and usually with a Hi-Low-Hi mission profile.

    The reason ,how i have pointed out more times, are very simple :

    - The sustained supersonic speed allow to shorten enormously the delivery cycle of the strategic cruise missiles toward enemy installations, and this element generate a disproportionately faster degradation of enemy military capabilities in comparison with a subsonic delivery cycle of the same ammunitions .
    Even a difference of mere few hours and entire air wings instead to be reduced to smoking scraps on the ground would be in the air, potentially capable to intercept a part of your next cruise missile salvo; or some radar installations would be still operative and capable to locate your next salvo and so on......
    Obviously the next salvo arrive much earlier adding to the degradation's magnificating effect up-described.


    - The sustained supersonic speed allow an incomparably faster relocation in different airfields, enormously complicating enemy ISR (in particular through space-based systems cause the tiem window coverage of a particular Sector) and targeting tasks.
    That element by itself multiply of several times the survivability of the strategic bomber.


    - The sustained supersonic speed (in comparison with a subsonic cruise speed ) prevent potential enemy aircraft of stance in airfields placed literally in several hundreds of km to partecipate in the attempt of the interception of the cruise missile salvo ,even when alerted by early warning assets and with the necessary in-flight refueling.


    Present and even more future military development world-wide is a titanic, frantic, desperate ,all-encompassing race toward speed ,speed and more speed.

    Words are a things, products was always and will always be another.........






    Arrow

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    Re: PAK-DA: News

    Post  Arrow on Wed Jul 12, 2017 10:42 pm

    resent and even more future military development world-wide is a titanic, frantic, desperate ,all-encompassing race toward speed ,speed and more speed. wrote:

    PAK DA propably will be subsonic bomber. The future is subsonic stealth bomber like B-21 and PAK DA.

    Mindstorm

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    Re: PAK-DA: News

    Post  Mindstorm on Thu Jul 13, 2017 10:41 am


    Arrow wrote:PAK DA propably will be subsonic bomber. The future is subsonic stealth bomber like B-21 and PAK DA.


    ПАК ДА, and not only it, will be.....period

    The future of reusable strategic offensive means will be anything EXCEPT subsonic and ,even more, imaginary self-delusional "stealth" products of any kind.

    A very, very careful eye is placed on the long "journeys" in the space of X-37B and its current and projected evolution, not those ,at best, easy and very costly flying targets.



    Do you know, anyway a fraction of military expenditure will always be commited to procurement of systems optimized for local conflict against low tech enemies , but for Federation's military budget, not having at its root an offensive-imperialistic Doctrine, procurement of systems optimized for conflicts against high tech opponents will always get the priority.
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    GarryB

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    Re: PAK-DA: News

    Post  GarryB on Thu Jul 13, 2017 1:10 pm

    The MiG-31 is an interceptor. This is a real difference in role between the MiG-31 and the Su-PAK-FA. Not like in the case militarov said.

    And for an interceptor speed is critical.

    For a bomber and a fighter it is not.

    If we compare the Su-PAK-FA with other aircrafts of its same or very close role like the Su-35, Su-30, Su-33, Su-27, MiG-35 or MiG-29, the speed is very close. Would you imagine a Mach 1.3 fighter today? We would not be very kind, even the F-35 is Mach 1.6+.

    Flying faster than Mach 1.5 burns up lots of fuel, dramatically shortens the flight range of the aircraft and takes time to accelerate to... so 90% of the time most of the aircraft you mention above never fly that fast.

    The MiG-31 and MiG-25 are exceptions to this rule as in their role of high speed interceptors they routinely accelerate to full speed and fly for long periods at that speed... simply because their role requires it.

    For most other aircraft it greatly reduces range and time on patrol for little to no benefit.

    Also we can compare the MiG-41-PAK-DP with the MiG-31 and the MiG-25, and we will see like the future interceptor falls not to lower speed level. Would you imagine a Mach 2 MiG-41? The same.

    Again because speed is a critical factor in their primary role.

    If speed was a critical factor then the Tu-95 would have been replaced completely from service and the B-52 would also be gone.

    Speed is not a critical factor in most types of theatre and strategic bombing or conventional cruise missile attack.

    None of the cruise missile attacks by Tu-160s or Tu-22M3s in Syria were launched at supersonic flight speeds... that would just waste fuel and reduce flight range.

    For a strategic mission higher speeds would be useful but the costs are higher fuel burn and higher operational costs.

    The Bear is not being replaced by the Tu-160M2 because the Tu-160M2 will have operating costs that are too high to allow it.

    The PAK DA will be subsonic which will mean its operational costs will be comparable with the Bear... and therefore affordable to operate in sufficient numbers.

    The Tu-160M2 will likely be able to super cruise with new lighter stronger materials and more powerful engines, which will mean flying supersonically all the way to the target and back will be practical and much more efficient... it will actually likely make the Tu-160M2 a much better aircraft in both strategic and theatre roles.

    If the PAK DA was going to be a supersonic bomber there would be no need to produce more Tu-160s, because the Blackjacks main feature is higher speed with long range.

    The PAK DA is going to be the cheaper to operate subsonic bomber that replaces the Tu-22M3 in the theatre role and the Tu-95 in the strategic role with large bomb loads and odd shaped large hypersonic cruise missiles that wont fit so well in the Blackjack.


    Present and even more future military development world-wide is a titanic, frantic, desperate ,all-encompassing race toward speed ,speed and more speed.

    Words are a things, products was always and will always be another.........

    I agree, speed adds to the performance of a bomber and its attempts to penetrate enemy airspace, but the cost is enormous too.

    Tu-160s are rather more expensive to operate that subsonic Tu-95s.

    Producing a few new Tu-160s... especially as mentioned if the weight could be reduced with new lighter stronger materials, and the fitting of new more powerful engines that are more fuel efficient and perhaps add the capacity to super cruise in the mach 1.4-1.6 speed range would greatly improve effectiveness and performance while also reducing operational costs and fuel consumption.

    They would still be too expensive to have your entire fleet based on them however.

    The same solution is in cruise missiles... subsonic stealthy long range, together with hypersonic long range offer the best combination of features and performance.

    No matter how you cut it the new long range hypersonic cruise missiles will be big weapons... external carriage might be the only option to begin with... external carriage offers enormous penalties for supersonic stealthy aircraft... the external drag means subsonic flight only and a big increase in RCS. For a subsonic plane like a Bear it wont slow it down that much and it already has a big RCS. for a big flying wing the internal volume for weapons could be huge and big enough for internal carriage.

    A modular design allowing theatre range fuel weights plus heavy conventional payloads, or conversely strategic level fuel weights and nuclear payloads for strategic delivery should be fairly straight forward to design.
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    Isos

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    Re: PAK-DA: News

    Post  Isos on Thu Jul 13, 2017 4:33 pm

    Flying faster than Mach 1.5 burns up lots of fuel, dramatically shortens the flight range of the aircraft and takes time to accelerate to... so 90% of the time most of the aircraft you mention above never fly that fast.

    The MiG-31 and MiG-25 are exceptions to this rule as in their role of high speed interceptors they routinely accelerate to full speed and fly for long periods at that speed... simply because their role requires it.

    For most other aircraft it greatly reduces range and time on patrol for little to no benefit.

    I'm not an expert in jet engines or fighters engines but it's better to have an engine capable of flying at mach 2.5 than mach 1.6 because, even if those speed won't be reached, it means that your engine is much more solid and the limit is far away from your cruise speed or some top speed you could reach during a fight. While having mach 1.6 max limit means your engine is more suceptible to damage if you reach accidently mach 1.5 or mach 1.6 in afterburners in a dogfight.

    Moreover, for bombing mission mach 2.0 is very usefull to get away from the target once destroyed because you can outrun fighters coming to you. Remember the 10 AMRAAMs shot and failed to a Mig-25 in Irak or Pakistani uncapable to intercept Indian Mig-25 near Islamabad. No need to use it all the way long, just to put some distance.

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