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    Russia - USA Relations

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    Austin
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    Re: Russia - USA Relations

    Post  Austin on Tue Jun 25, 2013 7:07 pm

    Putin confirms Snowden still in transit area at Moscow airport

    Russian President Vladimir Putin said on Tuesday former U.S. spy agency contractor Edward Snowden was still in the transit area of Moscow's Sheremetyevo airport, was free to leave and should do so as soon as possible.

    Putin told a news conference during a visit to Finland that he hoped the affair would not affect relations with Washington, which wants Russia to send him to the United States, but indicated Moscow would not hand him over: "Mr Snowden committed no crime in Russia, thus will not be handed over to the US", said Putin.

    "His visit was unexpected for Russia," the President claimed. "He is a free man, but the sooner he chooses his final destination, the better for him".  "Any accusations of Russia related to Snowden are complete non-sense. Personally, I would prefer not to deal with such issues [Assange and Snowden]", Putin concluded.

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    Re: Russia - USA Relations

    Post  Austin on Tue Jun 25, 2013 7:09 pm

    [url=http://en.rian.ru/world/20130625/181867683/US-Lawmaker-Calls-Putin-KGB-Apparatchik.html]US Lawmaker Calls Putin KGB ‘Apparatchik’[/url]


    WASHINGTON, June 25 (RIA Novosti) – US lawmaker and former presidential candidate John McCain on Tuesday called Russian President Vladimir Putin a KGB “apparatchik” and suggested Moscow is deliberately impeding the United States’ attempts to detain fugitive former US intelligence contractor Edward Snowden.

    “We’ve got to start dealing with Vladimir Putin in a realistic fashion for what he is,” McCain, a Republican senator from Arizona, said in an interview with CNN. “He’s an old KGB Colonel apparatchik that dreams of the days of the Russian Empire, and he continues to stick his thumb in our eye in a broad variety of ways.”

    McCain dismissed an assertion by Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov on Tuesday that Snowden, who leaked details of a US surveillance program to newspapers in the US and UK earlier this month, was not in Russia following his reported flight to Moscow’s Sheremetyevo Airport from Hong Kong on Sunday.

    A consistently vocal Putin critic, McCain said Russia’s handling of the Snowden affair would negatively impact bilateral relations between the two countries.

    “[Putin] has to understand, and we have to be serious, that this will affect our relations with Russia in a broad variety of ways and that does not mean a return to the Cold War, but it means a very realistic approach to our relations,” McCain said.
    Snowden was being kept out of public view at the airport’s transit area, according to an airport source who spoke to RIA Novosti on Monday after he failed to get on a Cuba-bound plane that he had reportedly been checked in for.

    A White House spokesman said on Monday that Washington believes that Snowden remains in Russia, and called on Moscow to assess “the options available” to expel him back to the United States to face criminal charges.

    In his interview with CNN on Tuesday, McCain also accused Putin of having a “disdain for democracy and the things we stand for and believe in” and referenced allegations last week that the Russian president had stolen a Super Bowl championship ring from the owner of the New England Patriots of the US National Football League.

    “If he sees a situation he'll take advantage of it. Anybody that takes somebody's Super Bowl ring has got to be not exactly like us,” McCain told CNN.

    The American football team’s billionaire owner, Robert Kraft, said in 2005 that he handed Putin the 124-diamond ring as gift. But at an awards ceremony in New York City this month, Kraft said the ring was not a gift and he would like to have it back. The next day, a Patriots spokesman said Kraft’s new statement was a joke.

    Putin’s spokesman, Dmitry Peskov, said last week that he had personally witnessed Kraft willingly give the ring to Putin, adding that the ring was being stored in the Kremlin’s library.

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    Re: Russia - USA Relations

    Post  GarryB on Wed Jun 26, 2013 12:13 pm

    The Russians don't understand democracy?

    The US does not understand international law... or more accurately thinks they are above the law.

    I would say the Russians understand democracy better than most US politicians...


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    Re: Russia - USA Relations

    Post  sepheronx on Wed Jun 26, 2013 5:44 pm

    US is just butthurt over the fact that once again, politically, they look bad and people do not have to listen to them.

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    Re: Russia - USA Relations

    Post  TR1 on Wed Jun 26, 2013 11:19 pm

    McCain being McCain.

    What else did anyone expect lol?

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    Re: Russia - USA Relations

    Post  SOC on Fri Jun 28, 2013 12:35 am

    GarryB wrote:The US does not understand international law... or more accurately thinks they are above the law.

    Given that I've been paying about zero attention to this as we don't have the balls to solve either problem in Europe with finality, what exactly is being violated? That's not a sarcastic question, I honestly have not followed much of this at all, except to comment to friends that if they think this was a new concept they were idiots.

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    Re: Russia - USA Relations

    Post  GarryB on Fri Jun 28, 2013 3:11 am

    International law includes laws on privacy, which US programs of electronic surveillance are violating.

    It is the electronic equivalent of entering every house to try to find evidence of illegal activity.

    Especially when the claimed goals of the system is supposed to be for use against terrorists, drug dealers and child molestors, yet the programs seem to be geared for industrial espionage.

    BTW I guess the US is in real trouble now because they don't negotiate with terrorists yet they are holding talks with the Taleban... Twisted Evil

    Hypocrite says what...


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    ― Samuel P. Huntington, The Clash of Civilizations and the Remaking of World Order

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    Re: Russia - USA Relations

    Post  SOC on Fri Jun 28, 2013 4:22 am

    GarryB wrote:International law includes laws on privacy, which US programs of electronic surveillance are violating.

    I don't know. I guess part of the reason I just can't bring myself to really care about the whole thing is that, like I said, if someone thinks that this is some sort of brand new idea, they're clearly deluded. I'd also go so far asto say that if anyone thinks we're the only ones doing it, that is equally deluded. We just don't have the right amount of deterrence built into the system I guess.

    GarryB wrote:the programs seem to be geared for industrial espionage.

    How do you figure that?

    GarryB wrote:BTW I guess the US is in real trouble now because they don't negotiate with terrorists yet they are holding talks with the Taleban...  Twisted Evil

    Hypocrite says what...

    Don't even get me started!

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    Re: Russia - USA Relations

    Post  GarryB on Fri Jun 28, 2013 7:15 am

    How do you figure that?

    I did a computer security paper at university and did a study on Echelon.

    The NSA had regular (Monthly) meetings with the heads of major US companies... can you guess why?

    I'd also go so far asto say that if anyone thinks we're the only ones doing it, that is equally deluded.

    Correction everyone else wants to do this, but only the US has the option.

    For instance with listening stations here in NZ... AFAIK there are only American stations... the data is sent to the US... we don't even get to look at it. They tell us what they think we should know.

    Lets just say when France decided to destroy a boat in a NZ harbour we got no warning from Echelon, and when the French threatened to cut us out of the EU for dairy exports the US was nowhere to be seen but we kept on sending data to the US.

    Our coverage is Asia and the south pacific.


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    “The West won the world not by the superiority of its ideas or values or religion […] but rather by its superiority in applying organized violence. Westerners often forget this fact; non-Westerners never do.”

    ― Samuel P. Huntington, The Clash of Civilizations and the Remaking of World Order

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    Re: Russia - USA Relations

    Post  SOC on Fri Jun 28, 2013 7:22 am

    GarryB wrote:The NSA had regular (Monthly) meetings with the heads of major US companies... can you guess why?

    Depends on the companies. I could think of quite a few reasons that aren't profit-related...

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    Re: Russia - USA Relations

    Post  GarryB on Fri Jun 28, 2013 11:25 am

    The information I managed to get hold of mentioned that the NSA passed on to Boeing intercepted information from officials of a foreign country that were deciding on the choice between Boeing and Airbus for a major contract... the intercepts revealing several of the officials had an interest in female French companionship and as part of the deal Airbus was happy to oblige.

    Now that doesn't effect profits... but having such information gives you several choices including offering a better quality of the product in demand... and I don't mean aircraft, or simply outing the officials and hoping you will win fair and square, or obviously talking to said official and threatening to tell their spouse about their arrangements with Airbus... and probably several other options I have not even considered.

    Another use was to determine the final offer of a competitor so that you can make your offer more appealing without offering more than you need to get the contract.

    (BTW I got an A+ for the paper and my lecturer asked to keep it as an example to other students for the future. My Lecturer was in the CIA for several decades and was disappearing to the US to places like West Point to give lectures to the US military)


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    “The West won the world not by the superiority of its ideas or values or religion […] but rather by its superiority in applying organized violence. Westerners often forget this fact; non-Westerners never do.”

    ― Samuel P. Huntington, The Clash of Civilizations and the Remaking of World Order

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    Re: Russia - USA Relations

    Post  Austin on Fri Jun 28, 2013 11:38 am

    Industrial Intelligence and Espionage very common , considering the rivalry that Boeing and Airbus has I wont be surprised that NSA would try to get as much information and secrets from Airbus and pass it on to Boeing.

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    Re: Russia - USA Relations

    Post  GarryB on Fri Jun 28, 2013 12:20 pm

    Molesting young boys is sadly very common, and when discovered should it be ignored or dealt with properly?

    Or should governments be above the law?

    Sorry, but if Snowden was releasing info about a Chinese electronic network of spy systems he would be held up as a hero in the west and most certainly have been given all sorts of honours like medals, a pay raise and perhaps promotion... likely even some sort of peace prize.

    He broke rules to reveal a much more serious breaking of rules and it seems the guilty party is going to try its best to get revenge and sweep everything back under the carpet.

    It makes US criticism of the terrible abuses of other states towards their citizens seem hollow and empty, but all they seem to be worried about at the moment is closing the leak rather than seriously asking itself about its real values... not the crap that it spouts through every movie and TV show, but its real values.

    I am sure in a movie a real US hero would say if we have to cheat and lie to stay perfectly safe then it is not worth it... indeed those that argue such things are necessary to remain "safe" have a different understanding of the word safe than the rest of us anyway it seems.

    The irony is that the US would be a much better country if it actually stood behind its high morals, but it doesn't... it is not Superman as it likes to see itself, it is more like the arch villains that Superman fights... sad pathetic beings whose focus is taking over the world and controlling it.

    Perhaps the best leadership role the US could adopt would be leading by example, but it has clearly lost its way.

    A lot of people who have disagreed with me over the years (and there have been quite a few) actually think I am anti American... the fact is that the fundamental ideals of the US are actually very good... they pinched them from all sorts of cultures and civilisations through the years but basically they hold up. The problem is the selfish double standard in implimenting these morals based on US interests. For instance spreading democracy does not apply to Saudi Arabia because the people there are generally anti west and it is not in Americas interests to have a hostile Saudi Arabia. The monarchy that rules there isn't thousands of years old as you might think... they were created by the British and French in the 1920s when Arabia became countries based on known oil deposits... the British and French took over the former colonies of the losing states of WWI like Germany. Equally in Kosovo the Albanians deserve independence from Serbia because the US does not like Serbia, yet Serbians living in Kosovo don't get the option of an independent state separate from Kosovo and neither do Bosnian Serbs. South Ossetians and Abkhazians must live under Georgian rule according to US foreign policy... amusingly that would suit Stalin personally as he was a Georgian but his mother was South Ossetian and he wanted the two countries joined so he could be all Georgian. In my Opinion if you are going to join two states in the region it would be North Ossetia and South Ossetia, which would mean SO joining the Russian Federation and not Georgia.

    US foreign policy never makes sense on the face of it using their morals and values... it is only when you cross reference their financial interests that you come up with some sense... it is not their morals or sense of fairness or justice that drives them... it is generally money and revenge.

    ...not looking so high and mighty anymore. Sad Huge disappointment really.


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    ― Samuel P. Huntington, The Clash of Civilizations and the Remaking of World Order

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    Re: Russia - USA Relations

    Post  SOC on Sat Jun 29, 2013 12:09 am

    GarryB wrote:The information I managed to get hold of mentioned that the NSA passed on to Boeing intercepted information from officials of a foreign country that were deciding on the choice between Boeing and Airbus for a major contract... the intercepts revealing several of the officials had an interest in female French companionship and as part of the deal Airbus was happy to oblige.

    Now that doesn't effect profits... but having such information gives you several choices including offering a better quality of the product in demand... and I don't mean aircraft, or simply outing the officials and hoping you will win fair and square, or obviously talking to said official and threatening to tell their spouse about their arrangements with Airbus... and probably several other options I have not even considered.

    Another use was to determine the final offer of a competitor so that you can make your offer more appealing without offering more than you need to get the contract.

    All good points. My thoughts are a bit skewed. If it's fine under US law, but not under international law, what takes precedent? I'd lean towards the former but an argument for the latter is basically just as valid.

    GarryB wrote:(BTW I got an A+ for the paper and my lecturer asked to keep it as an example to other students for the future. My Lecturer was in the CIA for several decades and was disappearing to the US to places like West Point to give lectures to the US military)

    Well hell, now I wanna read it study 

    GarryB wrote:if Snowden was releasing info about a Chinese electronic network of spy systems he would be held up as a hero in the west

    Not by this guy.

    GarryB wrote:It makes US criticism of the terrible abuses of other states towards their citizens seem hollow and empty

    Not quite the same thing, given that, according to the available info, this isn't being used to spy on US citizens (bridge for sale, $1000). In that case the US isn't abusing its own citizens, is it?

    GarryB wrote:US foreign policy never makes sense

    ...is all you really needed to say there!

    Austin wrote:Industrial Intelligence and Espionage very common , considering the rivalry that Boeing and Airbus has I wont be surprised that NSA would try to get as much information and secrets from Airbus and pass it on to Boeing.

    Reminds me of the KGB sending agents to France to take rubber scrapings from runways to figure out how to make whatever Concorde's tires were made of.

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    Re: Russia - USA Relations

    Post  GarryB on Sat Jun 29, 2013 2:15 pm

    All good points. My thoughts are a bit skewed. If it's fine under US law, but not under international law, what takes precedent? I'd lean towards the former but an argument for the latter is basically just as valid.

    Echelon didn't cover the US because it would have violated US law.

    Not quite the same thing, given that, according to the available info, this isn't being used to spy on US citizens (bridge for sale, $1000). In that case the US isn't abusing its own citizens, is it?

    Echelon didn't cover the US but it does cover US citizens in other countries and does not distinguish/check citizenship.

    The new systems do cover the US.

    The US does not have the right to abuse anyones citizens... self appointed world policeman or not. Razz 

    ...is all you really needed to say there!

    It makes perfect sense only if you follow US interests rather than US morals and standards...

    Reminds me of the KGB sending agents to France to take rubber scrapings from runways to figure out how to make whatever Concorde's tires were made of.

    Before the British Labour government sold state of the art Derwent and Nene Rolls Royce engines to the Soviets and production rights they showed the Russians around the factories that made them. Special soft sole shoes allowed the Russian delegates collect samples of metal shavings so the metals could be analysed so they knew the metal alloys they needed before the British told them and had material on hand ready for production much faster.



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    ― Samuel P. Huntington, The Clash of Civilizations and the Remaking of World Order

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    Re: Russia - USA Relations

    Post  Austin on Mon Jul 01, 2013 1:03 pm

    In wake of Snowden scandal , How safe are Russian systems , I mean these guys have penetrated every thing possible and since Internet is USA how can one keep it same from prying eyes of NSA.

    What if NSA hacks into says SRF control or into defence establishment and how do we know they havent yet.

    Today I read Ecquodor President stating his personal email is already hacked and they have Assang email published.

    How about similar penetration of says email account of Putin or other top heads.

    So bottom line is how safe are Russian Network from NSA attacks.

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    Re: Russia - USA Relations

    Post  AlfaT8 on Mon Jul 01, 2013 3:35 pm

    Austin wrote:In wake of Snowden scandal , How safe are Russian systems , I mean these guys have penetrated every thing possible and since Internet is USA how can one keep it same from prying eyes of NSA.

    What if NSA hacks into says SRF control or into defense establishment and how do we know they haven't yet.

    Today I read Ecuador President stating his personal email is already hacked and they have Assang email published.

    How about similar penetration of says email account of Putin or other top heads.

    So bottom line is how safe are Russian Network from NSA attacks.
    Very good question, sadly i haven't heard much from Russia on this issue no one really asked, i was hoping that RT would ask this question, but still nothing.Sad 

    One thing is for sure, we can pretty much assume that all major U.S based software, be they security, operating systems, business, ect software has been compromised  along with major hardware brands, if anything this has made the development of Russian computer hardware and software even more important for Russia's national security.russia 

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    Re: Russia - USA Relations

    Post  Austin on Mon Jul 01, 2013 3:43 pm

    In a digital ERA you are just a click away from loosing classified information as Snowden has showed.

    All the big companies like CISCO , Microsoft , IBM , HP and many others are US companies and they comply by US laws read it as what NSA tells them to do.

    So the information war is highly lopsided in favour of US , Not to mention many of the backbone and internet itself is based out of US.

    The least Russians can do is to isolate all critical networks from Internet and possible use customised OS like Linux and Routers/Switches made in Russia.

    And ofcourse have some spies in NSA to figure out how extensive their penetration is in Russian Digital Network Wink

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    Re: Russia - USA Relations

    Post  Austin on Mon Jul 01, 2013 8:05 pm

    Snowden Can Stay in Russia If He Wants – Putin

    MOSCOW, July 1 (RIA Novosti) – Russian President Vladimir Putin said Monday that fugitive former US intelligence contractor Edward Snowden can stay in Russia, if he wants to.

    “If he wants to go somewhere [another country] and is accepted, he can. If he wants to stay here, there is one condition: He must stop his work aimed at harming our US partners,” Putin said.

    The Russian leader said Russia had no plans to extradite Snowden to the United States. He denied that Snowden had ever had any ties with Russian intelligence services.

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    Re: Russia - USA Relations

    Post  Austin on Mon Jul 01, 2013 8:17 pm

    My Take on Snowden Episode

    The Country that had last laugh: No prices for Guessing China , There were many reports over years and before Chinas new President visit to US this year that China was indulging in cyber attack and Pentagon was warning about it , Obama mentioned that he told the Chinese President in clear words that such cyber attack were not acceptable.

    Now Snowden disclosure would make China laugh of their ass . If nothing else it was the case of Pot Calling Kettle Black

    Unexpected Gain: Russia , Russian Intelligence would have died to have a resource like Snowden inside NSA perhaps they have none inside NSA .....so this is a great unexpected intelligence bonanza ....though the Russian are under stating it but there is no doubt Snowden would have something to offer to Russia.

    Not to mention the years of Defection that US promoted , this would be the first US Citizen who may end up getting asylum in Russia

    Unexpected Loss : Europe - US relation would now always be viewed with suspicious .....the present Snowden issue will fall over but European will always be suspicious of Uncle SAM is watching over its shoulder.

    I am sure European Intelligence would be thinking what is the Business Loss they would have accrued over many years of NSA spying and what did they loose in negotiation with US over NSA gaining an insight over negotiation position.

    Egg on Face : US ofcourse with all the wonderful capability they would have build over years spending billions of dollars , they lost trust of their closest allies , lost its initiative against China and their attack blunted , Lost Intelligence and trust of its own citizen and that of the world.


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    Re: Russia - USA Relations

    Post  TR1 on Tue Jul 02, 2013 3:39 am

    Austin wrote:In wake of Snowden scandal , How safe are Russian systems , I mean these guys have penetrated every thing possible and since Internet is USA how can one keep it same from prying eyes of NSA.

    What if NSA hacks into says SRF control or into defence establishment and how do we know they havent yet.

    Today I read Ecquodor President stating his personal email is already hacked and they have Assang email published.

    How about similar penetration of says email account of Putin or other top heads.

    So bottom line is how safe are Russian Network from NSA attacks.

    If Russian state uses even 10% of the world (in)famous Russian hackers, then I would say they are in a very good state Very Happy

    But seriously, you asked a very difficult question Austin!

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    Re: Russia - USA Relations

    Post  Corrosion on Tue Jul 02, 2013 8:49 pm

    Austin wrote:In wake of Snowden scandal , How safe are Russian systems , I mean these guys have penetrated every thing possible and since Internet is USA how can one keep it same from prying eyes of NSA.

    What if NSA hacks into says SRF control or into defence establishment and how do we know they havent yet.

    Today I read Ecquodor President stating his personal email is already hacked and they have Assang email published.

    How about similar penetration of says email account of Putin or other top heads.

    So bottom line is how safe are Russian Network from NSA attacks.
    As far as E-Mail addresses and passwords are concerned they can be hackable but as far as I know Encriptions can be un-crackable if done properly. Even if computers can be hacked, manual encryptions are always there. Lets say I have encrypted a particular word as "╜ᾢḝϸﻜ☼⅜‰" and only my good friend in another country knows what these symbols correspond to in some other language. It is not possible to Hack human brain through wires/cables. Cool  I will be highly surprised if top secret messages are not sent in some encrypted format. Of-course if some body gives your Encryption codes away physically, that's another matter.

    IMO the only loss US will have from this whole episode is that their own populace(along with populace in US allied countries) will have less trust in US administration and of-course the leaked US secrets. Many people in general are saying that there's nothing new here and everybody does this kind of stuff depending on their capabilities but average people didn't knew that before. They will know now. I think Snowden succeeded in what HE wanted to do, if what He is saying is indeed the truth.

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    Re: Russia - USA Relations

    Post  GarryB on Wed Jul 03, 2013 4:37 am

    At the end of the day intel is only as good as how it is disseminated and interpreted.

    Some information will be critical, some will be disinformation, some will just be someones wrong opinion of something.

    At the end of the day being able to listen to everything the US says in private wont undermine their defence... it will undermine their credibility and could be used for pressure... for instance if they already think the leader of NK is crazy then you can use that to get concessions during talks etc.

    I rather suspect the Russians are well aware of the capabilities of the NSA and they will take precautions.

    Any sort of encryption takes time to decrypt, but the obvious would be hiding messages within messages.

    One example was used by Al Quada... get a gmail account and sign up and then write a draft message that is secret and then save it and log off. Your partner in crime will log on and open the saved draft files and read an email that has never been sent.

    Equally sending high volumes of messages... most of which are meaningless adds to the problems of listening.

    Hiding messages is fun... there are programs you can download off the internet that allow you to hide a message within an image file. The message is stored within the coding of the image data so it is not a plain message you could see... it is the colour information in the image stored in a particular way that can be interpreted as a message... and it can be encrypted too.

    Keep in mind that all this intel gathering technology didn't warn them about much... the invasion of Kuwaite was a surprise, 11/9 was a surprise... of course the Georgian invasion of Abkhazia was not a surprise but that was likely because milli vanili likely told them before hand.


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    ― Samuel P. Huntington, The Clash of Civilizations and the Remaking of World Order

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    Re: Russia - USA Relations

    Post  Regular on Wed Jul 03, 2013 12:27 pm

    Well AFAIK Russia started using Linux distro for their army and other services years ago. Remember reading it on russian XAKEP magazine about their own OS systems too.

    I'm pretty much sure big emphasis is being made on critical information.
    By the way, Putin reall surprised me with his statement about Snowden. You can't get more pro-american than that

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    Re: Russia - USA Relations

    Post  Austin on Wed Jul 03, 2013 12:44 pm

    Russia has been relatively cool about the whole Snowden thing even before he reached Moscow.

    So I suspect Russia probably knows more about NSA and its activities much prior to Snowden leaking it and must have take some measures to reduce its spying on Russia and its people.

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