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    Russia - USA Relations

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    GarryB
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    Re: Russia - USA Relations

    Post  GarryB on Thu Sep 20, 2012 5:58 am

    It was pretty much a front for supporting foreign agents like Gary Kasparov... note I didn't give him is full title of former world chess champion gary kasparov... as if that gives him some sort of authority in some way.

    Sorry to say it, but like most things the US government does it sounds like a nice charitable thing, but if you look deeper its prime goal was to serve US interests, and this is hidden behind a charade that it is actually about Russian interests.

    2.6 billion sounds like a lot of money, but over that same 20 years the west has probably spend 1,000,000 times more than that on killing people around the world, and developing new oil supplies including in Russia because it is also in their interests to maintain the oil supply.

    Perhaps a 750 billion dollar Marshal plan type bailout of Russia in the 1990s might have completely changed the dynamic... perhaps if China had had its growth spurt in the 80s instead of the 2000s there might have been a new cold war, with the west supporting the Russians so they had an ally that shared a land boundary with the new threat... perhaps then western democracy might not have been foul language in Russia in the 1990s.

    Opportunities lost.

    I remember Bush snr and secretary Baker emphasising that the Cold War is over and that neither side has lost... how can you say Russia lost when it gets democracy as a result. Is democracy a punishment for the loser?

    All sorts of promises were then made... NATO will not expand at all, NATO would not expand into eastern europe, NATO would not include former Soviet republics, NATO troops would not be based in eastern europe...

    But come election time in the US and it was all about the US winning the cold war... beating the Russians... freeing europe... and it has been the same ever since.


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    ― Samuel P. Huntington, The Clash of Civilizations and the Remaking of World Order

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    Re: Russia - USA Relations

    Post  flamming_python on Thu Sep 20, 2012 9:54 pm

    GarryB wrote:It was pretty much a front for supporting foreign agents like Gary Kasparov... note I didn't give him is full title of former world chess champion gary kasparov... as if that gives him some sort of authority in some way.

    Sorry to say it, but like most things the US government does it sounds like a nice charitable thing, but if you look deeper its prime goal was to serve US interests, and this is hidden behind a charade that it is actually about Russian interests.

    2.6 billion sounds like a lot of money, but over that same 20 years the west has probably spend 1,000,000 times more than that on killing people around the world, and developing new oil supplies including in Russia because it is also in their interests to maintain the oil supply.

    Perhaps a 750 billion dollar Marshal plan type bailout of Russia in the 1990s might have completely changed the dynamic... perhaps if China had had its growth spurt in the 80s instead of the 2000s there might have been a new cold war, with the west supporting the Russians so they had an ally that shared a land boundary with the new threat... perhaps then western democracy might not have been foul language in Russia in the 1990s.

    Opportunities lost.

    I remember Bush snr and secretary Baker emphasising that the Cold War is over and that neither side has lost... how can you say Russia lost when it gets democracy as a result. Is democracy a punishment for the loser?

    All sorts of promises were then made... NATO will not expand at all, NATO would not expand into eastern europe, NATO would not include former Soviet republics, NATO troops would not be based in eastern europe...

    But come election time in the US and it was all about the US winning the cold war... beating the Russians... freeing europe... and it has been the same ever since.

    Well, can't blame the Americans too much. Those promises were made to the USSR. The USSR keeled over.
    And they expanded because of Russia's own weakness. Russia should not have needed any sort of martial plan; in the 80s it was still the 2nd or 3rd largest economy in the world despite its political stagnation, gradual erosion of its ideology and increasing weaknesses in some areas of its economy. That it self-destructed and cynical politicians and would-be oligarchs robbed us blind and sold out all our interests is completely our fault. America and Europe simply took advantage of our weakness and chaos - but they didn't cause it; we did.

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    Re: Russia - USA Relations

    Post  GarryB on Fri Sep 21, 2012 2:25 am

    America and Europe simply took advantage of our weakness and chaos - but they didn't cause it; we did.

    There was a real opportunity... the west likes to brag that the rebuilding of West Germany and Japan after WWII was all about the west learning from the mistakes at the end of WWI where Germany was blamed for WWI when it was no more responsible than any other participant, yet the terms of surrender were extreme. The result was WWII.

    The problem is that the west is not actually that civilised and that the rebuilding of West Germany and Japan was really about preparation for the next big threat and nothing at all to do with learning from past mistakes.

    When the Soviet Union collapsed they had an opportunity to prove they had learned from their mistakes and they could have actively helped Russia and the other former Soviet republics, both financially and politically, but they chose to play a waiting game because there was no obvious threat on the horizon.

    I don't blame them for not helping and waiting to see what resulted, but if they are going to claim they only helped from the goodness of their hearts, well it is like Lend Lease all over again isn't it?

    USAIDE gave Russia 2.6 billion dollars and saved Russia from total collapse... why aren't you guys more grateful?

    In those 20 years the vast majority of aide went to dismantling nuclear subs and getting rid of old missiles and bombers. It sounds like a good thing, but they were spending money on the dead and not the living.

    I should make it clear that my beef is with the US government, and not the American people, who I am sure didn't have ill feelings towards the Russian people. The American people can be very generous to foreigners, it is the US government that makes sure it has an interest involved before it lifts a finger to help anyone.


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    “The West won the world not by the superiority of its ideas or values or religion […] but rather by its superiority in applying organized violence. Westerners often forget this fact; non-Westerners never do.”

    ― Samuel P. Huntington, The Clash of Civilizations and the Remaking of World Order

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    ‘Guantanamo List’ in response to ‘Magnitsky List’

    Post  Cyberspec on Sat Jan 19, 2013 3:34 am

    ‘Guantanamo List’ in response to ‘Magnitsky List’

    In response to America’s ‘Magnitsky List’, Russia is already operating a blacklist of some 60 US nationals who were involved in the mistreatment of prisoners at Guantanamo Bay and secret CIA jails.

    This blacklist is open to enlargement, and no aspect of it will be released into the public domain.

    Deputy Foreign Minister Sergei Ryabkov announced this to the press in Moscow on Friday.

    "In our relations with the United States, we have so-called ‘blacklists.’ The makeup of these lists, as well as the criteria on which they are based, is not a matter of general discussion," the Foreign Ministry's Deputy Head Sergei Ryabkov said. "As for the 'Guantanamo List,' some information that is now publicly available is not far from the truth. The contents of these lists may change with time," he added.

    Russia had previously blacklisted only 11 Americans. Visa restrictions had been put in place on those Americans who had violated the human rights of Russian citizens in the United States and in zones under American jurisdiction (such as Guantanamo Bay, Cuba). Duma Foreign Affairs Committee representative Alexei Pushkov told Russian media on Friday that the list had been extended to include 60 people.

    Ryabkov said Russia had determined several occasions on which "the US government and legal establishments had raced to unjustifiable conclusions, extending US jurisdiction to the territory of third states," and also violated human rights, including those of Russian citizens in the United States.

    "This cannot be left without a response. One of the forms of this response is the restriction of entry to Russia for those people who participate in these violations," he said.
    Voice of Russia, RIA

    http://english.ruvr.ru/2013_01_18/Guantanamo-List-in-response-to-Magnitsky-List/

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    US court orders Russia to pay $50,000 daily for Jewish books

    Post  Palestinian on Wed Jan 23, 2013 5:54 am

    A U.S. court ordered Russia to pay 50,000 dollars a day for using of the so-called Schneerson Library – a collection of ancient Jewish religious literature.

    Moscow will have to pay the money to Jewish Chassidic movement Chabad Lubavitch until it returns the Schneerson Collection.

    This collection of books and manuscripts used to belong to one of the leaders of the movement – late Rabbi Joseph Isaac Schneerson. The library counts 12,000 books, 50,000 other documents and 381 manuscripts.

    Russia does not recognize Chabad Lubavitch’s claims as the collection had been kept in Russia during all these years. In addition, the Schneerson family has no heirs to the unique collection.


    http://www.eutimes.net/2013/01/us-court-orders-russia-to-pay-50000-daily-for-jewish-books/

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    Re: Russia - USA Relations

    Post  Palestinian on Wed Jan 23, 2013 5:56 am

    Those books are probably very satanic, and the jews don't want Russia making what is in books known to the public.

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    Re: Russia - USA Relations

    Post  TR1 on Wed Jan 23, 2013 6:04 am

    Satanic....oh brother.

    And no, Russia will not be paying anything.

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    Re: Russia - USA Relations

    Post  Palestinian on Wed Jan 23, 2013 6:55 am

    Satanic in the sense that these books like the jewish talmud show total hostility and malice towards non-jews. They feel themselves superior to all others.

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    Re: Russia - USA Relations

    Post  Palestinian on Wed Jan 23, 2013 6:58 am

    Here is an example of what i mean.

    Leading fundamentalist rabbis gather in Israel to defend the publication of a book, Torat Ha'Melech, that attempted to provide halakhic justification for the killing of non-Jews, including innocent children and families. The gathering exposed not only the ferocious racism of a swath of Israel's pro-settlement rabbinate, but the powerlessness of the government to stop them. Produced by Max Blumenthal, Joseph Dana and Alternet.


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    Re: Russia - USA Relations

    Post  GarryB on Wed Jan 23, 2013 10:03 am

    They are not secret.

    The U.S. Justice agrees with the position of Moscow, but District of Columbia Judge Royce Lamberth, who took the decision, rejected the objections of the Justice Ministry.

    The litigation on the Schneerson Library continues for several years in U.S. courts. In early August 2010, Judge Lamberth said that books and manuscripts were kept in the Russian State Library and Russian military archives “illegally,” and that the Hasidim had all rights for them.

    Russia’s reaction was tough. Russian Foreign Ministry officials clearly stated that there would be no return made at all.

    Amusing really... and a very dangerous precedent... how many objects are there in western museums that were stolen or looted from their rightful owners and displayed... worse, how many are sitting in the basements of those museums because there is not enough space to display their entire collection.

    The article clearly says the US Justice ministry agrees with the Russian government, so this is one US judge overstepping his authority.


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    “The West won the world not by the superiority of its ideas or values or religion […] but rather by its superiority in applying organized violence. Westerners often forget this fact; non-Westerners never do.”

    ― Samuel P. Huntington, The Clash of Civilizations and the Remaking of World Order

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    Re: Russia - USA Relations

    Post  milky_candy_sugar on Mon Feb 04, 2013 11:46 am

    Palestinian wrote:Satanic in the sense that these books like the jewish talmud show total hostility and malice towards non-jews. They feel themselves superior to all others.

    The jewish Talmud was written by rabbis during times when it was perfectly okay to murder anyone who did not follow your religion. It is not necessarily considered a holy book because it is the word of men and not the word of God.

    What about the "Holy" Quran? I am pretty sure there are parts where killing infidels is perfectly acceptable

    And that's the word of God


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    Re: Russia - USA Relations

    Post  Palestinian on Tue Feb 05, 2013 12:54 am

    GarryB wrote:They are not secret.

    The U.S. Justice agrees with the position of Moscow, but District of Columbia Judge Royce Lamberth, who took the decision, rejected the objections of the Justice Ministry.

    The litigation on the Schneerson Library continues for several years in U.S. courts. In early August 2010, Judge Lamberth said that books and manuscripts were kept in the Russian State Library and Russian military archives “illegally,” and that the Hasidim had all rights for them.

    Russia’s reaction was tough. Russian Foreign Ministry officials clearly stated that there would be no return made at all.

    Amusing really... and a very dangerous precedent... how many objects are there in western museums that were stolen or looted from their rightful owners and displayed... worse, how many are sitting in the basements of those museums because there is not enough space to display their entire collection.

    The article clearly says the US Justice ministry agrees with the Russian government, so this is one US judge overstepping his authority.
    In the Quran, it does state you are allowed to kill your enemy's who are trying to kill you. It also states God would prefer you to have mercy on them if they surrender. The talmud is more about supremecy. In the talmud it states all non-jews are like cattle and do not deserve the same rights as jews.

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    Re: Russia - USA Relations

    Post  Palestinian on Tue Feb 05, 2013 12:55 am

    My reply was to post #7 my apologies gary. respekt

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    Re: Russia - USA Relations

    Post  Palestinian on Tue Feb 05, 2013 12:58 am

    Here is an interesting video of a former jew, who describes his life growing up as one. This guy's videos receive millions of views.


    Last edited by Palestinian on Tue Feb 05, 2013 1:03 am; edited 1 time in total

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    Re: Russia - USA Relations

    Post  Palestinian on Tue Feb 05, 2013 1:02 am

    Another important difference between the talmud and the quran is the talmud calls Jesus Christ a bastard and Mother Mary a whore. In the Quran Mary is described as a good woman and Jesus is considered a holy prophet.

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    Re: Russia - USA Relations

    Post  milky_candy_sugar on Tue Feb 05, 2013 3:30 am

    Palestinian wrote:Another important difference between the talmud and the quran is the talmud calls Jesus Christ a bastard and Mother Mary a whore. In the Quran Mary is described as a good woman and Jesus is considered a holy prophet.


    But as I told you, the Talmud is the word of man and not the word of God, therefore jews are not ultimately obligated to follow the Talmudic laws and many actually don't. However, the Quran is the word of God and muslims are obligated to follow it


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    Re: Russia - USA Relations

    Post  TR1 on Tue Feb 05, 2013 4:28 am

    All the holy books are full of stupid shit that no sane person would do in this day and age.

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    Re: Russia - USA Relations

    Post  Werewolf on Tue Feb 05, 2013 5:07 am

    TR1 wrote:All the holy books are full of stupid shit that no sane person would do in this day and age.

    At least 1.5 bln don't obey nonsense that was written by lunatic people in a time where killing,selling own family members to slave holders,marrying and having sex with children and excesive consume of opium or whatever they use was ok.

    Religion is not a freedom, religion is slaving own mind into hostility towards other religions.
    It doesn't matter how much you have smart intrinsic religious people the majority are stupid sheeps who don't think and just obey what others say.

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    Re: Russia - USA Relations

    Post  GarryB on Tue Feb 05, 2013 12:20 pm

    Lets perhaps keep on topic, this is about the ownership of a large collection of very old books held by the Russian state.

    The Russian government came to possess the books because the owner died with no natural heir.

    The books have been kept preserved and are available to Russians to access freely, and at least 7 were lent to these American based groups who are demanding the entire collection be sent to the US so they can possess it.

    The 7 books have not been returned so the Russians understandably are not allowing any more items from the library be sent to US museums for display because they fear they will not be returned either.

    This court action means that any Russian exhibit sent to the US or any Russian property in the US could be seized because of this verdict, which will seriously effect the cultural exchanges between these two countries.


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    “The West won the world not by the superiority of its ideas or values or religion […] but rather by its superiority in applying organized violence. Westerners often forget this fact; non-Westerners never do.”

    ― Samuel P. Huntington, The Clash of Civilizations and the Remaking of World Order

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    Russia’s insulting U.S. has set example for Hong Kong and Ecuador: ex-CIA head

    Post  Austin on Mon Jun 24, 2013 6:16 pm

    Russia’s insulting U.S. has set example for Hong Kong and Ecuador - former CIA head


    R. James Woolsey Jr., director of central intelligence during the Clinton administration, said that the United States’ failure to deal strongly with Russia and President Putin is setting an example for other countries in the Edward Snowden leak escapade.

    “Hong Kong and Ecuador are learning from Russia, which is that if you insult the United States and don’t follow international norms with respect to it, nothing happens,” Mr. Woolsey said on MSNBC’s “Morning Joe.” “And so they’re behaving appropriately. Nothing’s happening.”

    “His general attitude is don’t be weak, and that’s fine, but he’s not really doing anything else except avoiding being weak, simply trying to throw his weight around with respect to the United States,” Mr. Woolsey said. “He’s not cooperating, really, on anything substantial, and there’s no risk in it for him. He doesn’t have anything negative happen when he behaves that way with us, so the kind of cooperative relationship we had from time to time in the past, say with [Mikhail] Gorbachev, is just not here … he’s almost impossible to work with.”

    Mr. Snowden, a 30-year-old who had top-secret clearance and disclosed the government’s collection of phone records and a program that tracks some foreigners’ Internet activity, revealed his plans through a statement from WikiLeaks — founded by leaker Julian Assange — after reports he departed from Hong Kong bound for Moscow and then a new haven from American authorities seeking his arrest.

     Ecuadorean Foreign Minister Ricardo Patino confirmed on Twitter that his government had received an asylum request from Mr. Snowden, who landed in Moscow on Sunday and planned to travel to South America through Cuba, The Associated Press reported, citing Russian news agencies.
    Read more: http://english.ruvr.ru/news/2013_06_24/Russia-s-insulting-U-S-has-set-example-for-Hong-Kong-and-Ecuador-2259/

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    Re: Russia - USA Relations

    Post  TR1 on Tue Jun 25, 2013 3:44 am

    lol, of course they want a carpet like Gorby, who had to work with the West.

    Americans always talk about dealing "strong" with Russia, but are always lacking details.
    There really isn't much the US can do anymore.

    Plus, we already had a recent administration (Bush +Putin) on both sides that were unwilling to cooperate. ANd what happened? Some nasty words, bickering, nothing definitive.
    Is that really the prescription this guy wants? because they won't get another Gorbachev, sorry.


    The US is itself not the world leader on following international norms.

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    Re: Russia - USA Relations

    Post  Austin on Tue Jun 25, 2013 11:05 am

    Even if Russia gives Assylum to Snowden , How is that different from the recent Aleksandr Poteyev fleeing to US and getting assylum there when he betrayed illegal program .....or previously when Russian spies defected to US and were given assylum.

    I guess Snowden would have good intelligence on NSA activities in Russia so even if he is a spy and gets assylum in Russia it wont be any different to what US did in the past or recently.

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    Re: Russia - USA Relations

    Post  GarryB on Tue Jun 25, 2013 1:00 pm

    It is a great way to turn everyones attention away from the fact that the US was and is breaking international law and their attempts to hunt down the whistleblower is just an attempt to hide or gloss over their guilt... what they should be doing is giving this guy a ticker tape parade, but instead he is going to prison while the people responsible for breaking international law walk free.


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    ― Samuel P. Huntington, The Clash of Civilizations and the Remaking of World Order

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    Re: Russia - USA Relations

    Post  Viktor on Tue Jun 25, 2013 1:31 pm

    GarryB wrote:It is a great way to turn everyones attention away from the fact that the US was and is breaking international law and their attempts to hunt down the whistleblower is just an attempt to hide or gloss over their guilt... what they should be doing is giving this guy a ticker tape parade, but instead he is going to prison while the people responsible for breaking international law walk free.

    There are some who keeps focus on important things
    ‘Mad invader, eavesdropper’: China slams US after Snowden accusations

    Still you are right. Journalism has touched rocked bottom. No one seems to be interested in truth or common sense. 

    Only thing that matters right now is where is Snowden? The thing that he revealed, the reason why US is looking for him seems to be of no ones interest. 

    Just to say Moody has lowered rating of 8 Hong Kong banks. Strange coincidence:D

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    Re: Russia - USA Relations

    Post  AlfaT8 on Tue Jun 25, 2013 6:05 pm

    TR1 wrote:The US is itself not the world leader on following international norms.
    That much has been obvious since the days of Fidel.Rolling Eyes

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