Sujoy wrote:This is Presumptuous .
I view Russia & China as two separate countries .
How the US views Russia & China is not the kind of information they share with me but if you are telling me that the US views Russia & China through just one prism then they are short –sighted .
FYI , I have spent my formative years on the state/s bordering China and the survival of these states depends on predicting China’s next move .
I express myself wrongly. I wanted to say that such level of thinking of the size and level of Russian AD can be generally
seen on each and every US nationality forum member and much wider that completely lacks any understanding of its functioning.
Thats why we have even now questions like that one on keypub forum where one member thinks Russia AD by the end of 80ies consisted
of 80 S-300 launchers
If he only knew, I bet he would get a hart attack.
But then I never said that Russian AD is obsolete or incompetent , so why compare it with others ? I said that C4ISR is not pre-eminent in the Russian scheme of things according to the " Serdyukov reforms".
So it's Anatoliy Serdyukov , who in his capacity as the Russian Defence Mininster made these observations and not your's truly .
Sujoy wrote:Integrated air defense is an extremely expensive proposition which on this date only the US has with Russia and China taking steps towards it .
Which is completely wrong as Russia has the most integrated AD network by far in the world.
Than you continued with Russian ground C4ISR about what we are not talking here and is not a subject here
as it has no related points with AD. That`s why I think If you want to discuss ground network that is another topic for which I
don`t understand how it got over here.
Sujoy wrote:Certainly not . There were enough searchlights to lit up the entire area . More importantly
You are completely wrong. Searchlights, really?
If this was 1945 I would say you are completely off the track as even than Russia had highly primitive but still mechanical
"computers" for divisional artillery air-defense
Sujoy wrote:it was overwhelmed by a force which was several times larger and was able to use their Apache helos to take out short wave / long wave radar stations thus enabling the F 117s to destroy SAM units from stand off range .
That French designed Kari network for the whole country was much less efficient than a regimental AD in Russia at the time, with
the survivability chance against US at 0%. It was moderate in its efficiency even compared against air forces of surrounding countries
no matter the numbers because it is the integration that especially for the older AD systems increases its efficiency to an acceptable
level. Second thing you should understand is that only Russian and maybe China AD stand a chance to take on a full blow of NATO forces.
Every other AD is either not done properly or some of the mayor part for its operability is missing or is simply designed to
take on air forces of much lesser magnitude usually the ones of surrounding countries.
Sujoy wrote:Viktor , regardless of whether I read “internet spams” circulated by the US you are probably , albeit inadvertently, neck deep in internet spams circulated by the Chinese .
Chinese AD is extensive but that’s about it . Nothing to write home about any other aspect .
Creating a false sense of security for their citizens comes very naturally to the Chinese leadership.
You may be surprised by I am well familiar with the spam they are able to create but when it comes to AD network they did at the time
what`s best could be done and that was buying huge amounts of Russian S-300/BUK/TOR systems/technology on later which they
where able to make their own. No one has anything similar of the level except offcours Russia. China as Im familiar was one of the rare
countries that bought Russian command post like brigade level command post Sanezh and even possibly Baikal-1.
They have exploit Russian technology to make HQ-9 and VLS Buk/Hq-16 and Tor-M1(dont know if they copied it), and KS-1A (which Russia
had finished for them). So practically all of their most capable AD systems are of Russian origin or of have Russian blood. China
mindset in designing AD networks is similar to Russian ones although lesser in comparison. China AD is like a Russian AD little brother.
Sujoy wrote:Realizing fully well how incompetent their AD is against India’s AF , they have moved their AD assets deep inside Tibet and have instead send in numerous battalions of NLOS BM and MLRS to counter India . Essential to bear in mind that India’s AD integration capability is at least half a decade behind NATO .
China has every potential to develop and deploy extremely strong AD than it is now but even if they do it that will still be
oriented mostly toward US bases in pacific surrounding China. I don`t see you point with China deploying BM and MLRS together AD.
Sujoy wrote:There much hyped AD is basically a smoke screen much like North Korea's nuclear tests .
Dont bet on it.
Viktor wrote: Just in term of numbers China air-defense is 3 times smaller than the one in Russia
The USSR was 3 times the size of China .
I was speaking as of now. During the Soviet Union, China AD was none existent and SSSR was 3 time larger than it is now although
now is few times more efficient.
and with each passing year is getting more boost.
Viktor wrote:and that number will only increase with each
passing year in terms of quality, numbers, ability, integration etc.
Depends how you define the words "quality" and "ability" . Why do you think that the Chinese are all of a sudden planning to buy S 400 or SU 35? They have realized that after years of reverse engineering they cannot produce anything of quality.
Well I haven`t seen anything new from China about big AD systems except long time copied HQ-9 that from now and than incorporates
some new seeker or thanks to bigger processing power implemented in comparison with export version PMU manages to achieve something
bigger range. But nothing spectacular although it is still a capable system. But look in 5 year time Russia intends to
pop out 5 new AD systems that will bring new capabilities to the table with changing desing of integrated AD at the same time and
adjusting it to present and future day NATO capabilities. If China does not manage to keep up with development it will have to buy
unless it risk falling behind. Thats why I think it will buy.
Sujoy wrote:They have two sources of hi tech weaponry ...Russia and Israel . The latter cannot sell everything coz of US pressure and Russia only sells export versions.
Russian export versions are still extremely capable, in fact those same export models are still most capable out there and best buy
if you count in the price. Of course Russian ones are of different level and has substantionaly higher requirements.
Indian AD network and systems are none existent and as such prone to sudden attack on its for example airfields which would totally
devastate its capability to fight on in short time continuation or be left totally unprotected in case of high fighter attrition.
For its functionality AD network needs to have 3 crucial element
- Strong air-force
- AD system
- Radar coverage
India only has as of now strong air-force that will in time be even much stronger but objectively it only satisfies one out of three
requirements for strong AD. AD systems and radar coverage is something that basically lacks.