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    Vityaz SAM system: News

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    SOC
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    Re: Vityaz SAM system: News

    Post  SOC on Sun Sep 08, 2013 10:19 am

    Deep Throat wrote:Since acceleration is the rate of change of velocity, it is possible by performing integration to obtain the velocity from the acceleration . But then the question arises , how do you calculate acceleration ? I recon the answer lies in Newton's 2nd law ..... F=ma

    Consider a missile of mass "m" propelled by a rocket with constant thrust "F".
    To produce the constant thrust , the rocket expels fuel at a constant rate ,m*, and the missile's mass decreases at this rate . The thrust F produces an acceleration ,a, according to F =ma , with m varying as m=Mo+Mt, where m<O.

    Hence , F= (Mo+Mt)dv/dt

    Therefore, ∆v = F/m *ln ( Mo / Mo + Mt)

    We get , -F/m = U

    The quantity  -F/m is the thrust generated by burning rocket fuel at m kg/sec ( -F/w is generally used instead of  -F/m , where w = mg the weight of fuel burnt per second .)

    The resulting quantity , called specific impulse Isp is defined by

    Isp = -F/w = U/g
    This is why doing math at 3AM is best left to people designated Not Me respekt  This is actually pretty close to the example I give in class when covering Newton's Laws, explaining how F=ma is actually oversimplified in the real world. I explain the idea of a rocket with decreasing mass, and then you can see the lightbulbs go on when I tell them that their car does the same thing.

    That being said, it's going to be more complicated for a SAM. To make this as accurate as possible you also need to factor in the various drag effects of the airframe shape, the control surfaces, and drag created by the manipulation of control fins, any body lift generated, etc. This will all amount to a small decrease in what you'd calculate above, but it will manifest itself differently based on the individual missile characteristics.

    Hence why the most ridiculous accelerators are conical with very, very large high impulse boosters. And why I have taken to using various programs to figure this crap out for me a lot faster angel 

    Plus, higher acceleration is still not going to necessarily result in a higher peak velocity, especially if you've got a significantly smaller burn time on your motor. If we both accelerate, with you at a higher rate, but I do it for a longer period of time, I'll end up with the higher velocity if I was accelerating long enough to pass your peak velocity.

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    Re: Vityaz SAM system: News

    Post  GarryB on Sun Sep 08, 2013 11:01 am

    Which is not to say Patriot is a bad system... but that the US tends to prefer to leave its air defence to its Air Force and aircraft rather than ground based missiles.

    BTW looking at the videos of the radar for the Vityaz does anyone know what the small rear facing box on the base of the turning radar is?

    ie what is this:




    Since acceleration is the rate of change of velocity, it is possible by performing integration to obtain the velocity from the acceleration . But then the question arises , how do you calculate acceleration ? I recon the answer lies in Newton's 2nd law ..... F=ma
    Again the Patriot is disadvantaged as because it is fired in a fixed direction there is a pretty good chance it will need to change direction straight after launch to head toward the target which increases drag and reduces the available energy for acceleration.

    The Russian missiles are rolled in the direction they must head for just after launch which means the full thrust of the main rocket engine accelerates them directly at the target location at launch.


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    Re: Vityaz SAM system: News

    Post  Morpheus Eberhardt on Sun Sep 08, 2013 12:06 pm

    GarryB wrote:
    BTW looking at the videos of the radar for the Vityaz does anyone know what the small rear facing box on the base of the turning radar is?

    ie what is this:


    Fairing of the feed for the space-fed array.


    Last edited by Morpheus Eberhardt on Sun Sep 08, 2013 1:19 pm; edited 1 time in total

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    Re: Vityaz SAM system: News

    Post  Viktor on Sun Sep 08, 2013 12:48 pm

    SOC wrote:
    Stealthflanker wrote:Well multifunction approach is not new.. the MPQ-53 did that, the HQ-9 Battery also did same stuff.. combining search and track function in one platform.
    It's not even exactly new in Russia.  The 30N6 is fully capable of operating in a search mode and prosecuting targets.  The difference is that when you interface with a 36D6 or 64N6 you get much better situational awareness.  The HQ-9 is probably the same way, as it also employs off-board EW radars, including a new 64N6 clone.  Plus, the advantage to using off-board target acquisition sensors is that the engagement radar can stay out of lock-on mode until needed, remaining in search mode to provide midcourse corrections.  Far less reaction time for the target.
    - Thing is that now those functions are performed by two 50N6 simultaneously covering 360° searching for targets while guiding SAM on those targets. No MPQ-53, 30N6 or
    HQ-9 battery has such ability - not even close.

    - Certainly S-350 will have its dedicated search radar per battery but it remaines this uber waffe mode in case of need.

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    Re: Vityaz SAM system: News

    Post  SOC on Sun Sep 08, 2013 9:03 pm

    Morpheus Eberhardt wrote:Fairing of the feed for the space-fed array.
    Correct, and most of the S-300/400 radars use space feeds. The one on the 30N6 is basically identical to this one, with the one on the 64N6 being a feedhorn assembly.

    Viktor wrote:- Thing is that now those functions are performed by two 50N6 simultaneously covering 360° searching for targets while guiding SAM on those targets.
    I'm not sure that passes the logic test. I'd have to think about how this would work geometrically. One radar cannot cover 180 degrees, the phased array cannot look directly sideways. They'll have to rotate some to either side, which should be workable as long as they can keep targets in their FOVs.

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    Re: Vityaz SAM system: News

    Post  Morpheus Eberhardt on Sun Sep 08, 2013 11:19 pm

    SOC wrote:
    Viktor wrote:- Thing is that now those functions are performed by two 50N6 simultaneously covering 360° searching for targets while guiding SAM on those targets.
    I'm not sure that passes the logic test.  I'd have to think about how this would work geometrically.  One radar cannot cover 180 degrees, the phased array cannot look directly sideways.  They'll have to rotate some to either side, which should be workable as long as they can keep targets in their FOVs.
    The one doing the search would be mechanically rotating, similar to the 64N6 family's search mode.

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    Re: Vityaz SAM system: News

    Post  Morpheus Eberhardt on Mon Sep 09, 2013 12:07 am

    Morpheus Eberhardt wrote:
    GarryB wrote:
    BTW looking at the videos of the radar for the Vityaz does anyone know what the small rear facing box on the base of the turning radar is?

    ie what is this:

    Fairing of the feed for the space-fed array.
    Actually this fairing incorporates two linearly polarized feed systems, with at least the receive monopulse feed system having multiple horns and the polarization for one of the feed systems being horizontal with the other being vertical. In addition to these feed systems, there are a polarization-sensitive reflector and a quarter-wave plate under the fairing. Together, these components form a transmit/receive feed system obviating the need for a conventional duplexer, while at the same time providing an extremely high performance level.

    You can read a more detailed description by David K Barton for the 30N6 family in

    http://www.ausairpower.net/APA-Russian-SAM-Radars-DKB.html

    Caveat: I am not vouching, at all, for the Air Power Australia or the Microwave Journal.


    Last edited by Morpheus Eberhardt on Mon Sep 09, 2013 12:06 pm; edited 1 time in total

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    Re: Vityaz SAM system: News

    Post  Viktor on Mon Sep 09, 2013 1:39 am

    Morpheus Eberhardt wrote:The one doing the search would be mechanically rotating, similar to the 64N6 family's search mode.
    As stated in the article both are able to perform searching and shooting functions simultaneously.

    SOC wrote:
    Viktor wrote:- Thing is that now those functions are performed by two 50N6 simultaneously covering 360° searching for targets while guiding SAM on those targets.
    I'm not sure that passes the logic test.  I'd have to think about how this would work geometrically.  One radar cannot cover 180 degrees, the phased array cannot look directly sideways.  They'll have to rotate some to either side, which should be workable as long as they can keep targets in their FOVs.
    Or have sufficient rotation per minute Very Happy in order to feed up information to the missile.

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    Re: Vityaz SAM system: News

    Post  Morpheus Eberhardt on Mon Sep 09, 2013 11:09 am

    Viktor wrote:
    Morpheus Eberhardt wrote:The one doing the search would be mechanically rotating, similar to the 64N6 family's search mode.
    As stated in the article both are able to perform searching and shooting functions simultaneously.
    I am assuming that you are referring to the article at the following link which you had provided earlier.

    http://www.almaz-antey.ru/about/press/production/1574.html

    My knowledge of Russian language is extremely poor; so I have used Yandex to translate the relevant passage which I have reproduced in the following.

    "This is achieved through the use of WRU (ЗРС, зенитная ракетная система--Morpheus Eberhardt) first developed in our country fundamentally new information tools - multifunctional radar, which is able to simultaneously perform the functions of radar detection and radar accurate tracking of targets and anti-aircraft guided missiles."

    All I am saying is that for only one or two 50N6Ye radars to provide coverage over a 360 degree sector some degree of mechanical scanning would be required. Two 50N6Ye radars can implement this in many different ways. Also in my opinion this doesn't, in any manner, contradict the above passage. One fact that the article is implying is that 50N6Ye can "optimally" perform the search, track (with hard lock-ons), and missile guidance. In reality it can performs other roles also that weren't mentioned.

    It should be kept in mind that, unlike the case for 50N6Ye, in general, when an ESA or any other type of sensor is said to be capable of performing search, it doesn't mean that its capabilities are "optimal" or even "acceptable" in performing that function.

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    Re: Vityaz SAM system: News

    Post  GarryB on Mon Sep 09, 2013 11:24 am

    Thanks for the replies...


    Caveat: I am not vouching, at all, for the Air Power Australia or the Microwave Journal.
    I find the level of detail of information on APA to be very good, the problem with it is its speculative nature regarding Russian weapons... like the suggestion that there are IIR versions of the R-77M and other speculation about other systems that has no basis in official releases that I have read.

    It seems to want to make the F-35 look bad for the purpose of suggesting the F-22 is the only aircraft for the Australian military.


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    Re: Vityaz SAM system: News

    Post  Stealthflanker on Tue Sep 10, 2013 8:48 am

    SOC wrote:
    This is why doing math at 3AM is best left to people designated Not Me respekt  This is actually pretty close to the example I give in class when covering Newton's Laws, explaining how F=ma is actually oversimplified in the real world.  I explain the idea of a rocket with decreasing mass, and then you can see the lightbulbs go on when I tell them that their car does the same thing.

    That being said, it's going to be more complicated for a SAM.  To make this as accurate as possible you also need to factor in the various drag effects of the airframe shape, the control surfaces, and drag created by the manipulation of control fins, any body lift generated, etc.  This will all amount to a small decrease in what you'd calculate above, but it will manifest itself differently based on the individual missile characteristics.  

    Hence why the most ridiculous accelerators are conical with very, very large high impulse boosters.  And why I have taken to using various programs to figure this crap out for me a lot faster angel 
    I did this... try figuring out maneuverability (Theoritically at least) for 5V28 missiles of S-200..quite long..with some readings on Fleeman's and Nielsen's book.. finally got a figure of 17G of possible maneuverability at high altitude to kill SR-71's.

    But then though theoritically possible.. i'm still awaits for better data to improve accuracy.

    Now i have several spreadsheets..each detailing one missile...it's kinda long and tedious calculations (especially i'm not a programmer..which would mean excel is my hope) But it's kinda happy if i managed to get at least a reasonable result Very Happy

    Now i'm looking stuff about grid fins and how to calculate its effect to maneuverability.

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    Re: Vityaz SAM system: News

    Post  Morpheus Eberhardt on Wed Sep 11, 2013 11:54 am

    With respect to the 50N6Ye search mode, there seems to be some info at

    http://rbase.new-factoria.ru/sites/default/files/gallery/s.gurov/13/09/01/img_2216.jpg

    According to my extremely limited understanding of the Russian language, the spec sheet seems to be indicating that in the search/TWS mode the mechanical rotational speed of the array is 40 RPM. As I mentioned previously this mode would be somewhat similar to that of the 64N6 family, for example.

    By the way, as an aside, a missile system that incorporates a missile like one from the 9M96 family, with a guidance system that incorporates ARH+INS+datalink, can actually be satisfactorily supported, in many circumstances, with just a radar with TWS (track while scan-only) capabilities; so a capability for achieving a hard lock would not even be needed. After all S-25, S-75, and S-125 can all do this even for the variants of their missiles that were "command-only" (i.e., the variants of their missiles with no homing heads).

    To sum up this possibility, the 50N6Ye would be rotating mechanically over a 360 degree or smaller sector, providing search+IFF+TWS+datalink support to the missiles. It should be mentioned that this method is within the possibilities of S-350Ye, but it doesn't capitalize on most of the system's other capabilities. It should be kept in mind that S-350Ye would have TVM/SAGG capabilities which have to be supported by 50N6Ye.

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    Re: Vityaz SAM system: News

    Post  Viktor on Wed Sep 11, 2013 4:18 pm

    - Testing done by 2014
    - Mass production in 2015
    - Mass deliveries 2016
    - all according to schedule Very Happy 

    Russian Army to Receive Vityaz Air Defense Systems in 2016

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    Re: Vityaz SAM system: News

    Post  medo on Wed Sep 11, 2013 7:53 pm

    Viktor wrote:- Testing done by 2014
    - Mass production in 2015
    - Mass deliveries 2016
    - all according to schedule Very Happy 

    Russian Army to Receive Vityaz Air Defense Systems in 2016
    Excellent. Any more informations about Morphei? It is all quiet about it.

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    Re: Vityaz SAM system: News

    Post  Viktor on Thu Sep 12, 2013 12:58 am

    medo wrote:Excellent. Any more informations about Morphei? It is all quiet about it.
    Probably they have some problems so no info yet. I was hopping to catch some info about it on MAKS-2013 but nothing.

    Anyway Morfei is scheduled for 2015 so there is still plenty of time to finished it. I think Morfei is much more demanding system to construct and finish all development and research work

    than most other. I think that even if Almaz-Antej prolongs work on the Morfei system it does not matter since it is conceptually excellent fit in its existing AD network.


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    Re: Vityaz SAM system: News

    Post  Rpg type 7v on Sat Sep 14, 2013 1:41 pm

    this vytaz thing is a huge waste of resourses , 2016 and you have- pesa? Laughing Shocked Embarassed tongue 

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    Re: Vityaz SAM system: News

    Post  TR1 on Sat Sep 14, 2013 7:37 pm

    Rpg type 7v wrote:this vytaz thing is a huge waste of resourses , 2016 and you have- pesa? Laughing Shocked Embarassed tongue 
    You are right, like new Arleigh Burkes with PESA, it is useless.

    What an amateur analysis lol.

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    Re: Vityaz SAM system: News

    Post  GarryB on Sun Sep 15, 2013 10:34 am

    this vytaz thing is a huge waste of resourses , 2016 and you have- pesa?
    Vityaz is a huge step up from S-300 which it is replacing with more missiles per vehicle (12 vs 4), better range (60 and 150km range missiles vs 90km for the early model S-300), with more missiles in the air against more targets at once to make overwhelming the system much harder... what is not to like?

    The fact that they haven't spent extra money on AESA radars instead of PESA just shows they are not gold plating their systems.

    Eventually, when the AESA modules are cheaper and in mass production they probably will develop an AESA radar antenna for Vityaz, but PESA offers most of the advantages of electronic scanning without the costs of AESA... which means they can afford to put rather more into service much faster without spending too much money on them right now.


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    Re: Vityaz SAM system: News

    Post  Vann7 on Fri Sep 27, 2013 2:45 pm

    NickM wrote: Ok . So what do you think is the peak velocity of the S-300, S-400, and S-350 missiles because it can't be more than the Patriot ?
    I think you are just another victim of US propaganda . Remember that US sells weapons.. and they need to advertise
    everything being better than any other technology in the world or any time in future. It was the same with the F-117..
    Most Americans believed it was 'undetectable' and movies were made to showcase its invincibility . Until it was shot down in serbia by a very old soviet sam..and that was the last time it flew it was canceled after that.

    So americans have been mislead by its own government ,to think that no other cultures can do anything better than them.
    But reality is that we are all humans.. and (IF education is the same) there is nothing that stop anyone in a foreign nation to have an engineer or scientist as capable is not better than in the west. The only advantage that US had over other countries (at least in the past).. was MONEY.. that they could hire the best international scientist to make technology for them. Just like the atomic Bombs. that was created by a group of the best international scientist money could buy.. but the project leader an american(Robert Oppenheimer) took credit for it. when in reality it was an italian Enrico Fermi ,the soul of the project and the real father of the atomic bomb..who created the first nuclear reactor in the world . Tesla and Newton none of them were americans either. one serbian the other german jew but they migrated to US for its economy .There are more than 1,000 Russians working for INTEL.. in case you didnt knew. There is also lots of Indians too. The discovery of 'stealth technology' the way to reduce radar signature was the work of a russian scientist who worked for US after collpase of Soviet Union.. And its discoveries allowed americans to create stealth planes first before of anyone . That said.. a scientist is a scientist and its nationality is irrelevant. What matters is its education and the funding and support he receive for its investigation. Cost a lot of money to design things.. specially for defense industry.

    Here is american secret weapon in technology..
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NK0Y9j_CGgM

    Since Russia lacks the economy to produce/maintain a huge navy and airforce like US have for many decades . Russia have been focused instead ,in improving their defensive weapons and its nuclear deterrence . This is the reason why Russia is far ahead of NATO  in rocket propulsion and tactical missiles. While US was throwing away their money in irrelevant space flights to plant a flag in the moon ,space stations ,building a huge navy and airforce ,middle east wars..and Foreign Aid.. ie.. busy creating an Empire..Russia was quietly working in the research of defensive weapons and modernizing their military technology

    and to answer your question.. lol

    When it comes to Sam defenses..but also  cruise missiles and ballistic missiles IMO.. US and NATO are at least
    2 or even 3 decades behind Russia. Since they have supersonic missiles since the soviet union times in early 80's and NATO have none ..Now Russia is testing with India *Hypersonic* cruise missiles with mach 5.0 speeds
    and NATO have yet to release a single supersonic mach 1.0 cruise missile.

    Some numbers for you..
    Sams defenses missiles speed and others

    Air defense systems
    US
    Patriots pac-3/Sm-2...   mach 4-5.0.  (main NATO defense system) range 160-190km
       
    RIM-162 ESSM      mach 4.0  50km
    US aegis SM-3   ~mach 8.0  (limited only to ballistic Non maneuverable missiles in space)

    Russian
    S-300s  ....     mach 7.0.     range 200km
    S-400s......     mach 12.0.   range 400km
    S-500s ....      mach 20.0    range 600km    (still in test)
    Russian A-135 mach ---      super classified.. main Russian defense system against nuclear ICBM.
                                        rare videos on internet ,they appear to be at least 5x faster than Iskanders in
                                        acceleration. an like 2-3x times of topol.. so their speed should be around mach 30 or more.

    offensive weapons..
    Russian Iskanders-m  mach 9.0  ~500km-800km range  
    Russian topol M..      mach 24.0  11,000 km range  




    Cruise missiles speed..
    US Tomahawks /harpoon ... mach 0.8  (NATO main land attack and anti-ship missiles)  ~2500km /   120km  

    Russia Kalibr/Oniks     ...   ~mach 3.0                                                                 ~2600km/    300km/700km  
    Russia kh-31              .... ~mach 4.0 (launched from airplanes anti-ship)                  ~200km range
    Russia/India brahmos2   ...~ mach 5.0 (first world hypersonic cruise missiles)              300km

    If you want to know what US Navy thinks of Russian Kalibr antiship cruise missiles.. read here.

    http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=newsarchive&sid=a5LkaU0wj714&refer=home


    In comparison notice how slow subsonic missiles are..
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AzvFZnew41U

    here is the latest NATO cruise missile..[NSM] made by norway..
    better than US harpoon with 300km range but still subsonic speed.
    www.military.com/video/guided-missiles/antiship-missiles/jet-fighter-chases-naval-strike-missile/1187576322001/

    Russian pilots part of their training is defeat  cruise missiles by chasing them and using IR missiles.
    In the other hand you can't chase a super sonic mach 3 cruise missile... with a combat jet

    To your original question..As you can see..' it can be more than Patriots'..of course it can.
    US or NATO don't have the technology exclusive. Is available for all. What USA is for Computers and electronics..
    Russia is for rocket propulsion and missiles. But contrary to US that have the help of all NATO countries
    and Israel to develop their hardware.. Russia almost have to do it all alone.

    here is a video that shows an F-22 being defeated by a light and much cheaper combat jet..
    http://youtu.be/oGuWadoTgkE

    Modern Russian Sukhois will have a much easier time than a french Rafale planes since they have
    3d vector engines..and are much more maneuverable than any other modern plane.

    Moral of the story ,Each country have their own advantages
    in their own things. And in military hardware Russia is not only competitive with NATO in most things but at times even surpassing them. Which is good ,competition is what drives innovation.

    a good report that illustrate Russian progress with military technology for missiles
    but also combat planes .

    http://youtu.be/sNRMO70Hw0s


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    Re: Vityaz SAM system: News

    Post  dionis on Thu Oct 03, 2013 5:40 am

    As I mentioned in another thread, Vann, there's Harpoon variants that offer 280KM range.

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    Re: Vityaz SAM system: News

    Post  GarryB on Thu Oct 03, 2013 8:28 am

    As I mentioned in another thread, Vann, there's Harpoon variants that offer 280KM range.
    Harpoons problem is not so much its range, but its relative low speed.

    It is not a bad missile... it is just not a great one.


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    Re: Vityaz SAM system: News

    Post  dionis on Thu Oct 03, 2013 8:35 am

    GarryB wrote:
    As I mentioned in another thread, Vann, there's Harpoon variants that offer 280KM range.
    Harpoons problem is not so much its range, but its relative low speed.

    It is not a bad missile... it is just not a great one.
    Yes sir, but it exists the for the same reasons that the Kh-35 does.


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    Re: Vityaz SAM system: News

    Post  GarryB on Thu Oct 03, 2013 10:25 am

    When the primary anti ship missile is Harpoon then you are fairly limited... especially with older model Harpoon.

    Tomahawks are no longer made in the anti ship version, so no...Harpoon and Kh-35 are not equivalent in that the Harpoon is the primary USN anti ship missile for surface, sub surface, and air launch, and also for export, while Russia has a range of other missiles for air launch anti ship attack including Klub, Kh-32, Kh-31, Yakhont/Onyx/Brahmos...


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    Re: Vityaz SAM system: News

    Post  Mindstorm on Thu Oct 03, 2013 7:56 pm

    dionis wrote:As I mentioned in another thread, Vann, there's Harpoon variants that offer 280KM range.
    What Harpoon variant do you mean dionis ?

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    Re: Vityaz SAM system: News

    Post  TR1 on Thu Oct 03, 2013 10:27 pm

    Mindstorm wrote:
    dionis wrote:As I mentioned in another thread, Vann, there's Harpoon variants that offer 280KM range.
    What Harpoon variant do you mean dionis ?
    Probably air launched @ high altitude and supersonic speeds.

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