Military Forum for Russian and Global Defence Issues


    Vityaz SAM system: News

    Share

    xeno
    Junior Sergeant
    Junior Sergeant

    Posts : 143
    Points : 148
    Join date : 2013-02-04

    Re: Vityaz SAM system: News

    Post  xeno on Sat Aug 31, 2013 3:53 am

    10. It is active. It can be "over-the-horizon". It can intercept anti-ship missiles flying 10 meter above water 60km away instead of 18km.
    Read this news:
    http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?230425-SM-6-engages-first-over-the-horizon-targets-at-sea
    It is the future of Russian navy as well.
    This is an extremely important feature different from Rif-M(S-300 naval version )and 9M317(Shtil-1).

    TR1
    Colonel
    Colonel

    Posts : 5840
    Points : 5892
    Join date : 2011-12-06

    Re: Vityaz SAM system: News

    Post  TR1 on Sat Aug 31, 2013 4:29 am

    When you say active you mean active seeker head right?
    Would be interesting to see specifically what can cue the system to launch an "over-the-horizon" shot before the missile's own seeker sees the target.

    Also for anyone that knows, is the widespread use of active seekers in missiles the reason combined search and track radars are popping up everywhere now?

    Austin
    Colonel
    Colonel

    Posts : 5680
    Points : 6086
    Join date : 2010-05-08
    Age : 40
    Location : India

    Re: Vityaz SAM system: News

    Post  Austin on Sat Aug 31, 2013 5:32 am

    Thanks Victor .

    TR1 combined Search/Track radar is popping up because I think miniaturization of electronics,processors,invention of phased array seeker needing lower power has made it possible for combine the function into one single radar.

    Althought ARH has good flexibility because its not liked to call it umblical cord of its mother radar on ground but ARH also has a narrow field of view and would be less resistant to jamming compared to the big radar on ground.

    The amount of power available onboard missile and aperture of radar would also make its range lower and FOV narrower.

    So there is plus and minus to having a ARH seeker , but for target OTH where your radar cannot see due to horizon limit ARH is the only all weather option.

    TheArmenian
    Colonel
    Colonel

    Posts : 1523
    Points : 1686
    Join date : 2011-09-14

    Re: Vityaz SAM system: News

    Post  TheArmenian on Sat Aug 31, 2013 8:43 am

    Viktor wrote:Bastion Karpenko about Vityaz with specification and ton of pictures

    http://bastion-karpenko.ru/s-350%D0%B5_vityaz_maks_2013/




    Next, give the information to the prospectus, "The anti-aircraft missile system S-350E" Knight "presented GSKB" Almaz-Antey "at the MAKS-2013.

    Anti-aircraft missile system S-350E "Knight"

    PURPOSE
    ► Anti-aircraft missile system of medium-range S-350E is designed for the defense of administrative, industrial and military facilities from the massive strikes of current and future air threats.
    ► S-350E is able to simultaneously reflect the impacts of different types of air attack from any direction (round) at all altitudes of their flight - from extremely low to high altitudes.
    ► S-350E can operate autonomously, conducting independent military operations, as well as in the air-defense groups in the management of higher command posts.
    ► combat operation of S-350E is fully automatically. Combat crew prepares the AAMS to work and monitors the progress of hostilities.

    COMPOSITION
    ► Item command and control 50K6E
    ► Multifunction radar 50N6E (up to 2)
    ► Launchers 50P6E (up to 8 )with 12 anti-aircraft guided missiles, medium-range 9M96E2

    SPECIFICATIONS

    ► The maximum number of simultaneously targeted objectives:
    -aerodynamic-16
    - Ballistic -12
    ► The maximum number of simultaneously induced by anti-aircraft guided missiles 32
    ► Area defeat aerodynamic purposes:
    - the minimum / maximum range of 1.5 / 60 km
    - the minimum / maximum height of 10m- / 30 km
    zone ► defeat ballistic purposes:
    - the minimum / maximum range of -1.5 / s0 km
    - the minimum / maximum height -2/25 km
    ► Time to bring funds into the embattled from the march - 5 minutes
    ► combat crew-3 people

    MULTI RADAR 50N6E

    Multi-function radar is the primary communication tool of S-350E and working in circular and sectoral modes. Combat operation multifunction radar is completely indifferent operator automatically by remote control from the point of command and control.
    ► The maximum number of targets tracked in the mode of piste maintenance -100,
    ► Maximum number of tracked targets in a precise auto-tracking mode - 8.
    ► Max ¬ Mykh is accompanied by anti-aircraft missiles - 16
    ► Speed ​​azimuth - 40 rev / min
    ► The maximum distance to the command and control -2 km

    ITEM command and control 50K6E

    Item command and control is designed to manage multi-function radars and launchers. Item command and control provides the interface with the adjacent S-350E and the higher command post.
    ► The total number of tracked trails - 200.
    ► The maximum distance to the next command and control of S-350E - 15 km
    ► Maximum distance to a higher command post - 30 km

    LAUNCHER 50P6E

    The launcher is designed for the transportation, storage, automatic prelaunch and launch anti-aircraft guided missiles
    ► The number of anti-aircraft missiles on the launcher -12.
    ► The minimum interval between launches anti-aircraft missiles - 2
    ► Time of loading / unloading - 30 min.
    ► The maximum distance to the point of command and control - 2 km

    Anti-aircraft guided missile of 9M96E2

    ► Starting weight - 420 kg
    ► Average speed-900-1000 m / s
    ► Type of guidance - inertial with radio.
    ► Type-homing active radar
    ► type of warhead-high-explosive
    ► Warhead weight - 24 kg




    You beat me in posting this one. So I give you my vote for adding the translation and inserting your comments/views.
    I will add just a couple of pictures from the same page:




    Mindstorm
    Captain
    Captain

    Posts : 737
    Points : 920
    Join date : 2011-07-20

    Re: Vityaz SAM system: News

    Post  Mindstorm on Sat Aug 31, 2013 12:26 pm



    Some hints for both the question of S-350E's (export version ...EXPORT) engagement range and or the the air-launched weapons presented at MAKS 2013 (B. Sweetman anyone? .....)


    http://www.janes.com/article/26451/maks-2013-russian-industry-unveils-new-sam-systems


    Naturally also in this article the confusion reign supreme :

    "The S-350E is scheduled for firing trials in the fourth quarter of 2013 and potentially to enter service with the Russian armed forces in 2014. The S-350E is planned to replace the older model S-300 (SA-10 'Grumble') SAM systems currently in service..."
    Laughing Laughing 

    Level of military journalism, in the latest years , is falling very quickly toward amateurish level.

    Austin
    Colonel
    Colonel

    Posts : 5680
    Points : 6086
    Join date : 2010-05-08
    Age : 40
    Location : India

    Re: Vityaz SAM system: News

    Post  Austin on Sat Aug 31, 2013 1:22 pm

    Mindstorm wrote:Naturally also in this article the confusion reign supreme :

    "The S-350E is scheduled for firing trials in the fourth quarter of 2013 and potentially to enter service with the Russian armed forces in 2014. The S-350E is planned to replace the older model S-300 (SA-10 'Grumble') SAM systems currently in service..."
     Laughing Laughing 

    Level of military journalism, in the latest years , is falling very quickly toward amateurish level.
    But isnt that true that S-350/Vityaz would replace the older S-300 in service specially the S-300P/PS model ?

    Mindstorm
    Captain
    Captain

    Posts : 737
    Points : 920
    Join date : 2011-07-20

    Re: Vityaz SAM system: News

    Post  Mindstorm on Sat Aug 31, 2013 1:56 pm

    Austin wrote:
    Mindstorm wrote:Naturally also in this article the confusion reign supreme :

    "The S-350E is scheduled for firing trials in the fourth quarter of 2013 and potentially to enter service with the Russian armed forces in 2014. The S-350E is planned to replace the older model S-300 (SA-10 'Grumble') SAM systems currently in service..."
     Laughing Laughing 

    Level of military journalism, in the latest years , is falling very quickly toward amateurish level.
    But isnt that true that S-350/Vityaz would replace the older S-300 in service specially the S-300P/PS model ?

    Obviously S-350 Vityaz will replace S-300P in ПВО and it , in comparison, will offer also enormously increased performances (range of engagement included).

    S-350E ? Please.....Laughing 

    Austin
    Colonel
    Colonel

    Posts : 5680
    Points : 6086
    Join date : 2010-05-08
    Age : 40
    Location : India

    Re: Vityaz SAM system: News

    Post  Austin on Sat Aug 31, 2013 2:40 pm

    Yes the media tends to generalise the export variant is what will be with Russian Armed Forces.

    Thats because they fail to realise the subtle difference between export variant and internal one and also for the fact that Internal Variant performance figures are never advertised so it remains unknown.

    Viktor
    Colonel
    Colonel

    Posts : 5630
    Points : 6283
    Join date : 2009-08-25
    Age : 36
    Location : Croatia

    Re: Vityaz SAM system: News

    Post  Viktor on Sat Aug 31, 2013 3:05 pm

    TheArmenian wrote:You beat me in posting this one. So I give you my vote for adding the translation and inserting your comments/views.
    I will add just a couple of pictures from the same page:
    Karpenko provided text below, google translator provided translation and I, I just copy-paste the thing here but tnx anyway Very Happy .

    Thing is that I finanly managed to see all text provided in prospect. Anyway it is interesting that max 9M96E2 range is not provided but "Area defeat". Wink 


    mack8
    Lieutenant Colonel
    Lieutenant Colonel

    Posts : 923
    Points : 983
    Join date : 2013-08-02

    Re: Vityaz SAM system: News

    Post  mack8 on Sat Aug 31, 2013 10:19 pm

    Someone posted that the inscription 9M96D is visible on the launch canisters. So perhaps 9M96D for Russia and 9M96E2 for export?

    GarryB
    Colonel
    Colonel

    Posts : 15482
    Points : 16189
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Re: Vityaz SAM system: News

    Post  GarryB on Sun Sep 01, 2013 10:53 am

    Would be interesting to see specifically what can cue the system to launch an "over-the-horizon" shot before the missile's own seeker sees the target.
    To have a good chance of a kill you would need a platform with eyes on target to assure a kill, though a high flying AWACS like aircraft would be ideal as it would allow extended range view of the area around the naval group that could be used to engage multiple threats.

    I rather suspect inertial navigation to target area calculated before launch though the chance of midflight course updates should allow for use against a manouvering target with terminal guidance active radar homing.

    But isnt that true that S-350/Vityaz would replace the older S-300 in service specially the S-300P/PS model ?
    Yes, but the article is suggesting that the export version of S-350 will replace older S-300 systems in Russian Service... which is clearly unlikely.

    Not really new as often journalists will never mention Onyx, and will talk about Yakhont like it is the standard domestic AShM...

    Thats because they fail to realise the subtle difference between export variant and internal one and also for the fact that Internal Variant performance figures are never advertised so it remains unknown.
    And often the domestic missile remains secret so they will talk about Brahmos and Yakhont as if Onyx is just a Yakhont or doesn't even exist.

    Someone posted that the inscription 9M96D is visible on the launch canisters. So perhaps 9M96D for Russia and 9M96E2 for export?
    There are likely two missiles in this system so 9M96D and 9M96D2 for domestic use and 9M96E and 9M96E2 for export...



    _________________
    “The West won the world not by the superiority of its ideas or values or religion […] but rather by its superiority in applying organized violence. Westerners often forget this fact; non-Westerners never do.”

    ― Samuel P. Huntington, The Clash of Civilizations and the Remaking of World Order

    mack8
    Lieutenant Colonel
    Lieutenant Colonel

    Posts : 923
    Points : 983
    Join date : 2013-08-02

    Re: Vityaz SAM system: News

    Post  mack8 on Sun Sep 01, 2013 3:25 pm

    Not sure if i missed it, but is there any info whether the Vityaz radar is a PESA or AESA?

    Viktor
    Colonel
    Colonel

    Posts : 5630
    Points : 6283
    Join date : 2009-08-25
    Age : 36
    Location : Croatia

    Re: Vityaz SAM system: News

    Post  Viktor on Sun Sep 01, 2013 4:32 pm

    mack8 wrote:Not sure if i missed it, but is there any info whether the Vityaz radar is a PESA or AESA?
    PESA.

    Viktor
    Colonel
    Colonel

    Posts : 5630
    Points : 6283
    Join date : 2009-08-25
    Age : 36
    Location : Croatia

    Re: Vityaz SAM system: News

    Post  Viktor on Tue Sep 03, 2013 5:01 pm

    From MAKS-2013




    NickM
    Sergeant
    Sergeant

    Posts : 184
    Points : 131
    Join date : 2012-11-09
    Location : NYC,USA / Essex,UK

    Re: Vityaz SAM system: News

    Post  NickM on Sat Sep 07, 2013 4:23 pm

    Mindstorm wrote:Obviously S-350 Vityaz will replace S-300P in ПВО and it , in comparison, will offer also enormously increased performances (range of engagement included).
    The S 350 still pales into insignificance when compared to the Patriot for the simple reason that Patriot has far better ACCELERATION than the S 350 .

    Stealthflanker
    Major
    Major

    Posts : 808
    Points : 894
    Join date : 2009-08-04
    Age : 28
    Location : Indonesia

    Re: Vityaz SAM system: News

    Post  Stealthflanker on Sun Sep 08, 2013 2:14 am

    NickM wrote:
    Mindstorm wrote:Obviously S-350 Vityaz will replace S-300P in ПВО and it , in comparison, will offer also enormously increased performances (range of engagement included).
    The S 350 still pales into insignificance when compared to the Patriot for the simple reason that Patriot has far better ACCELERATION than the S 350 .
    Which Patriot you are talking about ? Against the ERINT it has equal performance.. and perhaps 9M96 family is superior by having more maneuverability (60 G) Vs the ERINT (50 G)


    Viktor
    Colonel
    Colonel

    Posts : 5630
    Points : 6283
    Join date : 2009-08-25
    Age : 36
    Location : Croatia

    Re: Vityaz SAM system: News

    Post  Viktor on Sun Sep 08, 2013 3:32 am

    There is something extremely interesting about Vityaz sytem - brutally to say at least Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy 







    According to experts, the key factor determining the effectiveness of the S-350E is its ability to simultaneously reflect the impacts of different types of air attack from any direction (round) at all altitudes of their flight, from extremely low to greater heights in all weather conditions, day and night, in difficult noise conditions.
    This is achieved through the use of air defense missile systems developed for the first time in our country fundamentally new information tool - multifunction radar, which is able to simultaneously perform the functions of radar detection and accurate target tracking radar and anti-aircraft missiles.

    ALMAZ-ANTE LINK

    once again


    This is achieved through the use of air defense missile systems developed for the first time in our country fundamentally new information tool - multifunction radar, which is able to simultaneously perform the functions of radar detection and accurate target tracking radar and anti-aircraft missiles

    Meaning this sytem will have two modes of operations fundamentally different.


    1. Search radar (1RL123 or any other in operational service or that will come) performs search function and alerts 50N6 radar which guides missiles to its targets.

    2. There is no search radar. Search function as well as firing function are performed simultaneously (with two 50N6 per battery rottating in a synchronizing mode)

    Implications on the battlefield are tremendous

    Stealthflanker
    Major
    Major

    Posts : 808
    Points : 894
    Join date : 2009-08-04
    Age : 28
    Location : Indonesia

    Re: Vityaz SAM system: News

    Post  Stealthflanker on Sun Sep 08, 2013 4:05 am

    Viktor wrote:

    This is achieved through the use of air defense missile systems developed for the first time in our country fundamentally new information tool - multifunction radar, which is able to simultaneously perform the functions of radar detection and accurate target tracking radar and anti-aircraft missiles
    Meaning this sytem will have two modes of operations fundamentally different.


    1. Search radar (1RL123 or any other in operational service or that will come) performs search function and alerts 50N6 radar which guides missiles to its targets.

    2. There is no search radar. Search function as well as firing function are performed simultaneously (with two 50N6 per battery rottating in a synchronizing mode)

    Implications on the battlefield are tremendous
    Well multifunction approach is not new.. the MPQ-53 did that, the HQ-9 Battery also did same stuff.. combining search and track function in one platform.

    That info however indicate that the 50N6 might operates in C-Band (5-8 Ghz) frequency..It's a compromise between search and tracking applications. I expect some clever time management method to balance between search and track processing.

    SOC
    Lieutenant
    Lieutenant

    Posts : 595
    Points : 650
    Join date : 2011-09-13
    Age : 38
    Location : Indianapolis

    Re: Vityaz SAM system: News

    Post  SOC on Sun Sep 08, 2013 4:30 am

    Stealthflanker wrote:Well multifunction approach is not new.. the MPQ-53 did that, the HQ-9 Battery also did same stuff.. combining search and track function in one platform.
    It's not even exactly new in Russia. The 30N6 is fully capable of operating in a search mode and prosecuting targets. The difference is that when you interface with a 36D6 or 64N6 you get much better situational awareness. The HQ-9 is probably the same way, as it also employs off-board EW radars, including a new 64N6 clone. Plus, the advantage to using off-board target acquisition sensors is that the engagement radar can stay out of lock-on mode until needed, remaining in search mode to provide midcourse corrections. Far less reaction time for the target.

    NickM wrote:The S 350 still pales into insignificance when compared to the Patriot for the simple reason that Patriot has far better ACCELERATION than the S 350 .
    Don't let the fact that the S-300, S-400, and S-350 missiles have higher peak velocities get in your way or anything.

    Austin
    Colonel
    Colonel

    Posts : 5680
    Points : 6086
    Join date : 2010-05-08
    Age : 40
    Location : India

    Re: Vityaz SAM system: News

    Post  Austin on Sun Sep 08, 2013 6:01 am

    Viktor wrote:
    mack8 wrote:Not sure if i missed it, but is there any info whether the Vityaz radar is a PESA or AESA?
    PESA.
    Hybrid PESA isnt it ?

    NickM
    Sergeant
    Sergeant

    Posts : 184
    Points : 131
    Join date : 2012-11-09
    Location : NYC,USA / Essex,UK

    Re: Vityaz SAM system: News

    Post  NickM on Sun Sep 08, 2013 7:13 am

    SOC wrote:Don't let the fact that the S-300, S-400, and S-350 missiles have higher peak velocities get in your way or anything.
    Ok . So what do you think is the peak velocity of the S-300, S-400, and S-350 missiles because it can't be more than the Patriot ?

    NickM
    Sergeant
    Sergeant

    Posts : 184
    Points : 131
    Join date : 2012-11-09
    Location : NYC,USA / Essex,UK

    Re: Vityaz SAM system: News

    Post  NickM on Sun Sep 08, 2013 7:15 am

    Stealthflanker wrote:Which Patriot you are talking about ? Against the ERINT it has equal performance.. and perhaps 9M96 family is superior by having more maneuverability (60 G) Vs the ERINT (50 G)
    PAC 3 . I am talking about acceleration & not velocity . The PAC 3 has better acceleration than any other SAM .

    TR1
    Colonel
    Colonel

    Posts : 5840
    Points : 5892
    Join date : 2011-12-06

    Re: Vityaz SAM system: News

    Post  TR1 on Sun Sep 08, 2013 8:24 am

    NickM wrote:
    SOC wrote:Don't let the fact that the S-300, S-400, and S-350 missiles have higher peak velocities get in your way or anything.
    Ok . So what do you think is the peak velocity of the S-300, S-400, and S-350 missiles because it can't be more than the Patriot ?
    Why can't it be more?

    Are American weapons blessed by god?

    SOC
    Lieutenant
    Lieutenant

    Posts : 595
    Points : 650
    Join date : 2011-09-13
    Age : 38
    Location : Indianapolis

    Re: Vityaz SAM system: News

    Post  SOC on Sun Sep 08, 2013 9:45 am

    NickM wrote:
    SOC wrote:Don't let the fact that the S-300, S-400, and S-350 missiles have higher peak velocities get in your way or anything.
    Ok . So what do you think is the peak velocity of the S-300, S-400, and S-350 missiles because it can't be more than the Patriot ?
    Depends on which source you read, some give Mach numbers some give actual velocities, but hey, let's compare some numbers.

    1700 m/s for PAC-3
    2100 m/s for the 48N6DM (S-400)
    2600 m/s for the 9M83M (S-300VM)

    Patriot can deal with a TBM with a 1,000 km range.  
    S-300VM and S-400, a TBM with a range of up to 3,500 km.

    I've seen the average velocity for PAC-3 given as 750 - 950 m/s, with the average velocity for the S-350's 9M96 as 900 - 1000 m/s.

    The Russian SAMs consistently outrange all versions of Patriot in terms of TBM footprint, aerodynamic engagement envelope, and TAR/TER radar range.

    9M96 has a more sound design than PAC-3:  "The 9M96E/E2 radial thruster package is located at the fuselage CoG, to generate a direct force to turn the missile, rather than producing a pitch/yaw moment to use body lift to turn, as is the case in the ERINT/PAC-3 design."

    The S-300/400's SAGG guidance concept is more advanced and less susceptible to EA than Patriot's simpler TVM.

    The S-300/350/400 have a demonstrated 5 minute set-up/tear-down time, compared to 45-60 minutes for US Patriot variants (Germany might be able to deploy their quicker if they're using the mobile MAN launcher chassis).

    The AN/MPQ-53/65 has a search coverage of 120 degrees, and an engagement coverage of 90 degrees.  The Russian systems routinely use off-board TARs employing 360 degree mechanical search modes allowing the use of narrower engagement beamwidths providing a reduced electronic footprint for the TER in comparison.

    Finally, Patriot doesn't even hold water to what is by far the best American SAM system yet created, a system on par with the S-400:  the land-based AEGIS system.

    Acceleration?  Whatever.  In the grand scheme of things, what acceleration does is eat up your minimum range fractionally faster.  Velocity at burnout is what is normally going to drive your engagement kinematics, not how quickly you get to that point.

    Besides, the personifications of Sprint and the 53T6 would find all of this talk about comparatively sluggish SAM accelerations to be completely hilarious.

    There are some things America does better than everyone without it being a contest. But SAMs? That ain't the field to argue.

    TR1 wrote:Are American weapons blessed by god?
    Maybe that's why they couldn't hit a SCUD for a damn in 1991...

    Deep Throat
    Junior Sergeant
    Junior Sergeant

    Posts : 100
    Points : 132
    Join date : 2013-05-22

    Re: Vityaz SAM system: News

    Post  Deep Throat on Sun Sep 08, 2013 10:02 am

    SOC wrote:Acceleration?  Whatever.  In the grand scheme of things, what acceleration does is eat up your minimum range fractionally faster.  Velocity at burnout is what is normally going to drive your engagement kinematics, not how quickly you get to that point.
    Since acceleration is the rate of change of velocity, it is possible by performing integration to obtain the velocity from the acceleration . But then the question arises , how do you calculate acceleration ? I recon the answer lies in Newton's 2nd law ..... F=ma

    Consider a missile of mass "m" propelled by a rocket with constant thrust "F".
    To produce the constant thrust , the rocket expels fuel at a constant rate ,m*, and the missile's mass decreases at this rate . The thrust F produces an acceleration ,a, according to F =ma , with m varying as m=Mo+Mt, where m<O.

    Hence , F= (Mo+Mt)dv/dt

    Therefore, ∆v = F/m *ln ( Mo / Mo + Mt)

    We get , -F/m = U

    The quantity -F/m is the thrust generated by burning rocket fuel at m kg/sec ( -F/w is generally used instead of -F/m , where w = mg the weight of fuel burnt per second .)

    The resulting quantity , called specific impulse Isp is defined by

    Isp = -F/w = U/g

    Sponsored content

    Re: Vityaz SAM system: News

    Post  Sponsored content Today at 2:07 am


      Current date/time is Sat Dec 10, 2016 2:07 am