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    INF Treaty - coming to the end of its life

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    AlfaT8

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    Re: INF Treaty - coming to the end of its life

    Post  AlfaT8 on Sun Aug 24, 2014 7:11 pm

    Russia, US to Discuss Agreement on Mid, Short-Range Missiles in September - Source
    MOSCOW, August 21 (RIA Novosti) - Russian and US experts will meet in September to discuss a bilateral agreement on mid- and short-range missiles, a source in the Russian Foreign Ministry told RIA Novosti Thursday.

    “A meeting will be held on the expert level. This will be consultations on mutual concerns,” the source said in reference to the Intermediate-Range Nuclear Forces (INF) Treaty.

    Washington earlier accused Moscow of “breaching its INF obligations of not testing, producing or developing cruise missiles with a range between 500 and 5,500 kilometers.” The Russian Foreign Ministry said the accusations are unfounded and that the United States has not released any evidence of Russia breaching the agreement.

    The Russian authorities have expressed their own complaints about US compliance with the treaty in light of Washington’s plans to deploy Mark 41 Vertical Launching Systems to Poland and Romania.

    Last week, Russian Defense Minister Sergei Shoigu and US Defense Secretary Chuck Hagel discussed the necessity of more meetings and open lines of communication on the treaty.

    The INF Treaty was signed by the United States and the Soviet Union in 1987 to prevent the use of nuclear and conventional missiles with an intermediate range, defined as 500 to 5,000 kilometers (310 to 3,100 miles).
    http://en.ria.ru/military_news/20140821/192212639/Russia-US-to-Discuss-Agreement-on-Mid-Short-Range-Missiles-in.html
    I can only hope that this meeting goes horribly, and Russia not only decides to leave the INF treaty, but also the MTCR, to further break NATOs military backbone. (one can dream, can't they?)
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    Mike E

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    Re: INF Treaty - coming to the end of its life

    Post  Mike E on Mon Aug 25, 2014 12:21 am

    I hope so too! MTCR was created just to keep US military "superiority" intact. INF is the same...
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    GarryB

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    Re: INF Treaty - coming to the end of its life

    Post  GarryB on Tue Aug 26, 2014 9:03 am

    The main purpose of the MTCR agreement is to stop the rest of the world from getting the long range precision weapons like cruise missiles and modern short and medium range ballistic missiles.

    There was a time when to hit a single factory located in another country you had to send hundreds of bombers over several weeks over and over and even then you might not even hit it directly.

    You could do it today easily with a tactical nuke, but obviously there are laws and systems in place to stop the proliferation of even small nuclear weapons, so there is no alternative but to use lots of aircraft in waves several times to ensure success.

    For the west that is fine because the countries they fight never have the capacity to mount multiple heavy raids on them because Washington is a long way from the locations of the fighting.

    Allow the widespread purchase of long range cruise missiles for instance and the US would have to start spending five or six times more than it already does for all those radars and air defence centres and heavy SAMs...

    the amusing thing is that the US breaks the MTCR every time it sells things like a new Trident to the UK, or the various long range weapons it exports.


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    AlfaT8

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    Re: INF Treaty - coming to the end of its life

    Post  AlfaT8 on Tue Aug 26, 2014 1:22 pm

    GarryB wrote:The main purpose of the MTCR agreement is to stop the rest of the world from getting the long range precision weapons like cruise missiles and modern short and medium range ballistic missiles.

    There was a time when to hit a single factory located in another country you had to send hundreds of bombers over several weeks over and over and even then you might not even hit it directly.

    You could do it today easily with a tactical nuke, but obviously there are laws and systems in place to stop the proliferation of even small nuclear weapons, so there is no alternative but to use lots of aircraft in waves several times to ensure success.

    For the west that is fine because the countries they fight never have the capacity to mount multiple heavy raids on them because Washington is a long way from the locations of the fighting.

    Allow the widespread purchase of long range cruise missiles for instance and the US would have to start spending five or six times more than it already does for all those radars and air defence centres and heavy SAMs...

    the amusing thing is that the US breaks the MTCR every time it sells things like a new Trident to the UK, or the various long range weapons it exports.
    Garry, any idea what China's story is, there not under the MCTR so why aren't they exporting long range cruise/ballistic missiles?? dunno
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    Mike E

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    Re: INF Treaty - coming to the end of its life

    Post  Mike E on Wed Aug 27, 2014 12:22 am

    Your last point is the reason Russia should leave it... Both sides really don't have much to gain from it, and maybe they lose from it!
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    GarryB

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    Re: INF Treaty - coming to the end of its life

    Post  GarryB on Wed Aug 27, 2014 12:15 pm

    Garry, any idea what China's story is, there not under the MCTR so why aren't they exporting long range cruise/ballistic missiles??

    Because they don't have GLONASS or GPS to make long range weapons precise enough, and they don't have ballistic missiles accurate enough to give up that tactical nuclear warhead to be able to sell them in large numbers.


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    Mike E

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    Re: INF Treaty - coming to the end of its life

    Post  Mike E on Tue Sep 09, 2014 6:03 am

    Russia, U.S. to discuss INF Treaty concerns in Moscow on Sept 11

    Source: Russia Beyond the Headlines - (http://rbth.com/news/2014/09/08/russia_us_to_discuss_inf_treaty_concerns_in_moscow_on_sept_11_39602.html)
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    magnumcromagnon

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    Re: INF Treaty - coming to the end of its life

    Post  magnumcromagnon on Tue Sep 09, 2014 7:32 am

    Mike E wrote:Russia, U.S. to discuss INF Treaty concerns in Moscow on Sept 11

    Source: Russia Beyond the Headlines - (http://rbth.com/news/2014/09/08/russia_us_to_discuss_inf_treaty_concerns_in_moscow_on_sept_11_39602.html)

    With NATO amassing on Russia's borders, now's the time to leave the INF treaty.
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    Werewolf

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    Re: INF Treaty - coming to the end of its life

    Post  Werewolf on Tue Sep 09, 2014 4:20 pm

    magnumcromagnon wrote:
    Mike E wrote:Russia, U.S. to discuss INF Treaty concerns in Moscow on Sept 11

    Source: Russia Beyond the Headlines - (http://rbth.com/news/2014/09/08/russia_us_to_discuss_inf_treaty_concerns_in_moscow_on_sept_11_39602.html)

    With NATO amassing on Russia's borders, now's the time to leave the INF treaty.

    It is time to send nuclear missiles to central and south America since russia is already surrounded with NATO dogs willingly die for a terrorist country and the US has nukes right infront of Russia in Germany and builds ABM shields.
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    Mike E

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    Re: INF Treaty - coming to the end of its life

    Post  Mike E on Tue Sep 09, 2014 4:47 pm

    magnumcromagnon wrote:
    Mike E wrote:Russia, U.S. to discuss INF Treaty concerns in Moscow on Sept 11

    Source: Russia Beyond the Headlines - (http://rbth.com/news/2014/09/08/russia_us_to_discuss_inf_treaty_concerns_in_moscow_on_sept_11_39602.html)

    With NATO amassing on Russia's borders, now's the time to leave the INF treaty.

    You bet, and they would have a good explanation for doing so...
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    magnumcromagnon

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    Re: INF Treaty - coming to the end of its life

    Post  magnumcromagnon on Tue Sep 09, 2014 6:15 pm

    Mike E wrote:
    magnumcromagnon wrote:
    Mike E wrote:Russia, U.S. to discuss INF Treaty concerns in Moscow on Sept 11

    Source: Russia Beyond the Headlines - (http://rbth.com/news/2014/09/08/russia_us_to_discuss_inf_treaty_concerns_in_moscow_on_sept_11_39602.html)

    With NATO amassing on Russia's borders, now's the time to leave the INF treaty.

    You bet, and they would have a good explanation for doing so...

    The great thing about Iskander-M is that it has lots of unused internal space. leaving lots of room for modernization potential for larger warheads and or greater amounts of propellant.
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    Mike E

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    Re: INF Treaty - coming to the end of its life

    Post  Mike E on Tue Sep 09, 2014 8:33 pm

    magnumcromagnon wrote:
    Mike E wrote:
    magnumcromagnon wrote:
    Mike E wrote:Russia, U.S. to discuss INF Treaty concerns in Moscow on Sept 11

    Source: Russia Beyond the Headlines - (http://rbth.com/news/2014/09/08/russia_us_to_discuss_inf_treaty_concerns_in_moscow_on_sept_11_39602.html)

    With NATO amassing on Russia's borders, now's the time to leave the INF treaty.

    You bet, and they would have a good explanation for doing so...

    The great thing about Iskander-M is that it has lots of unused internal space. leaving lots of room for modernization potential for larger warheads and or greater amounts of propellant.
    More propellant would be the better option... More range, or they could have it burn faster and more powerfully, while achieving the same range. Either way the current model's range is unknown (domestic model), so it might not need an upgrade for all I care!
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    Mike E

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    Re: INF Treaty - coming to the end of its life

    Post  Mike E on Mon Sep 22, 2014 5:31 am

    Kremlin sees no reasons to withdraw from INF Treaty

    But it is possible in exceptional circumstances, Sergei Ivanov, the chief of the Kremlin administration, said

    MOSCOW, September 21. /ITAR-TASS/. The Kremlin sees no reasons to unilaterally quit the Intermediate-Range Nuclear Forces (INF) Treaty, but it is possible in exceptional circumstances, Sergei Ivanov, the chief of the Kremlin administration, said on Sunday.
    “In principle, each of the parties may withdraw from the treaty in exceptional circumstances,” he said in an interview with the Rossiiskaya Gazeta daily. “So far, and I would like to stress it, I see no such circumstance.”
    “As a matter of fact, we adherents of the principle of implementing international liabilities,” he said. “Unless we see that our security interests are seriously threatened.”
    He said that prior to 2003 Russia and the United States had had regular consultations on the INF Treaty but later they had been stopped at the initiative of the U.S. side. “Now, the INF Treaty is in the focus of discussion, including in a regime of accusations and counteraccusation. The American side is loudly but groundlessly accusing us of actual violation of the treaty, but we have still more claims to the Americans,” Ivanov said, citing among them target missiles the United States used during tests of its missile system, offensive operations drones and the ongoing implementation of missile defence plans providing for the deployment of MK-41 launch platforms in Europe.
    Drawback of this treaty had become evident, he said, adding that the key one was its bilateral character. “It means that any other country of the world is free to do whatever it wants as concerns this type of weapons,” Ivanov noted. As an example, he cited such countries as North Korea, Israel, Pakistan, India, Iran, which did have such type of weapons and which were located near Russia. “By the way, over the time of the Bush administration, the American leaders were fully aware of that; different geographical location requires different approaches to defence,” he noted.
    He said that the first round of new Russia-U.S. consultations had been held and the sides had told each other what they thought about it. “Let us wait for the continuation,” he added.
     
    - I don't know what to make of this... He said that they have no interest in withdrawing, just to say that they *might* withdraw at a later time... (Depending on the situation, of course...)
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    magnumcromagnon

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    Re: INF Treaty - coming to the end of its life

    Post  magnumcromagnon on Mon Sep 22, 2014 6:39 pm

    Mike E wrote:Kremlin sees no reasons to withdraw from INF Treaty

    But it is possible in exceptional circumstances, Sergei Ivanov, the chief of the Kremlin administration, said

    MOSCOW, September 21. /ITAR-TASS/. The Kremlin sees no reasons to unilaterally quit the Intermediate-Range Nuclear Forces (INF) Treaty, but it is possible in exceptional circumstances, Sergei Ivanov, the chief of the Kremlin administration, said on Sunday.
    “In principle, each of the parties may withdraw from the treaty in exceptional circumstances,” he said in an interview with the Rossiiskaya Gazeta daily. “So far, and I would like to stress it, I see no such circumstance.”
    “As a matter of fact, we adherents of the principle of implementing international liabilities,” he said. “Unless we see that our security interests are seriously threatened.”
    He said that prior to 2003 Russia and the United States had had regular consultations on the INF Treaty but later they had been stopped at the initiative of the U.S. side. “Now, the INF Treaty is in the focus of discussion, including in a regime of accusations and counteraccusation. The American side is loudly but groundlessly accusing us of actual violation of the treaty, but we have still more claims to the Americans,” Ivanov said, citing among them target missiles the United States used during tests of its missile system, offensive operations drones and the ongoing implementation of missile defence plans providing for the deployment of MK-41 launch platforms in Europe.
    Drawback of this treaty had become evident, he said, adding that the key one was its bilateral character. “It means that any other country of the world is free to do whatever it wants as concerns this type of weapons,” Ivanov noted. As an example, he cited such countries as North Korea, Israel, Pakistan, India, Iran, which did have such type of weapons and which were located near Russia. “By the way, over the time of the Bush administration, the American leaders were fully aware of that; different geographical location requires different approaches to defence,” he noted.
    He said that the first round of new Russia-U.S. consultations had been held and the sides had told each other what they thought about it. “Let us wait for the continuation,” he added.
     
    - I don't know what to make of this... He said that they have no interest in withdrawing, just to say that they *might* withdraw at a later time... (Depending on the situation, of course...)

    The Kremlin proves yet again that it's dominated by the incredibly naive, France and Britain never signed the INF treaty and Russia is surrounded by theater range nukes from it's West, it's East, and it's South...and on top of that the U.S. will invest $1 trillion to "maintain" it's nuclear stockpile:

    ‘Anti-nuclear’ Obama plans to spend $1 trillion on nukes
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    zg18

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    Re: INF Treaty - coming to the end of its life

    Post  zg18 on Mon Sep 22, 2014 7:22 pm

    magnumcromagnon wrote:The Kremlin proves yet again that it's dominated by the incredibly naive, France and Britain never signed the INF treaty and Russia is surrounded by theater range nukes from it's West, it's East, and it's South...and on top of that the U.S. will invest $1 trillion to "maintain" it's nuclear stockpile:

    Why terminating INF , when you can test and deploy "Rubezh" -barely-an-ICBM- Wink
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    GarryB

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    Re: INF Treaty - coming to the end of its life

    Post  GarryB on Tue Sep 23, 2014 7:58 am

    The INF treaty is a card Russia can play when it is useful.

    Right now it is not doing and damage to Russian security, but if that changes they are free to withdraw if they need to.

    Right now the INF treaty limits what ground based missile systems the US can deploy to Europe... any weapon... ballistic or cruise, ground to ground or ground to air, is banned by the INF treaty if its flight range is 500km to 5,500km... and if it is greater than 5,500km it is no longer an intermediate range missile... it becomes an ICBM, which comes under the New START treaty...


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    George1

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    Re: INF Treaty - coming to the end of its life

    Post  George1 on Mon Dec 01, 2014 3:28 am

    GarryB wrote:The INF treaty is a card Russia can play when it is useful.

    Right now it is not doing and damage to Russian security, but if that changes they are free to withdraw if they need to.

    Right now the INF treaty limits what ground based missile systems the US can deploy to Europe... any weapon... ballistic or cruise, ground to ground or ground to air, is banned by the INF treaty if its flight range is 500km to 5,500km... and if it is greater than 5,500km it is no longer an intermediate range missile... it becomes an ICBM, which comes under the New START treaty...

    Klub-K/M land attack cruise missile system violates INF Treaty?




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    GarryB

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    Re: INF Treaty - coming to the end of its life

    Post  GarryB on Tue Dec 02, 2014 7:23 am

    No.

    Domestic and exportable versions have ranges of less than 500km.



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    magnumcromagnon

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    Re: INF Treaty - coming to the end of its life

    Post  magnumcromagnon on Tue Dec 02, 2014 6:51 pm

    GarryB wrote:No.

    Domestic and exportable versions have ranges of less than 500km.


    So would a naval and air launched IRBM be perfectly legal?
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    GarryB

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    Re: INF Treaty - coming to the end of its life

    Post  GarryB on Wed Dec 03, 2014 9:42 am

    The INF treaty regards land based cruise and ballistic missiles.

    It does not apply to sub or ship launched nor air launched weapons.

    Just looking at the 5,500km range of the Kh-101 and Kh-102, perhaps extra fuel tanks and solid rocket boosters to extend its range to say, 8,000km could make a land based cruise missile perfectly legal.

    It would then count under new START as a strategic weapon if it was nuclear but with a conventional warhead it might slip through the cracks...


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    ― Samuel P. Huntington, The Clash of Civilizations and the Remaking of World Order
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    Morpheus Eberhardt

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    Re: INF Treaty - coming to the end of its life

    Post  Morpheus Eberhardt on Wed Dec 03, 2014 9:55 am

    George1 wrote:
    GarryB wrote:The INF treaty is a card Russia can play when it is useful.

    Right now it is not doing and damage to Russian security, but if that changes they are free to withdraw if they need to.

    Right now the INF treaty limits what ground based missile systems the US can deploy to Europe... any weapon... ballistic or cruise, ground to ground or ground to air, is banned by the INF treaty if its flight range is 500km to 5,500km... and if it is greater than 5,500km it is no longer an intermediate range missile... it becomes an ICBM, which comes under the New START treaty...

    Klub-K/M land attack cruise missile system violates INF Treaty?





    The domestic version would have a range above 5500 km.

    Vann7

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    Re: INF Treaty - coming to the end of its life

    Post  Vann7 on Fri Dec 05, 2014 7:10 am

    Morpheus Eberhardt wrote:
    George1 wrote:
    GarryB wrote:The INF treaty is a card Russia can play when it is useful.

    Right now it is not doing and damage to Russian security, but if that changes they are free to withdraw if they need to.

    Right now the INF treaty limits what ground based missile systems the US can deploy to Europe... any weapon... ballistic or cruise, ground to ground or ground to air, is banned by the INF treaty if its flight range is 500km to 5,500km... and if it is greater than 5,500km it is no longer an intermediate range missile... it becomes an ICBM, which comes under the New START treaty...

    Klub-K/M land attack cruise missile system violates INF Treaty?





    The domestic version would have a range above 5500 km.


    Klub have 5,500 km range? source?
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    GarryB

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    Re: INF Treaty - coming to the end of its life

    Post  GarryB on Fri Dec 05, 2014 9:08 am

    Technically Klub is an export missile and has a flight range of less than 300km.

    Kalibr is the modern version of Granat (SS-N-21 cruise missile... nuclear armed because CEP was 250m) that can be conventionally armed because of its sub 10m CEP.

    The main reason it got a conventional warhead capability is because enormous improvements in terminal accuracy, but I see no reason why the improvements in propulsion over 20-30 years could not result in an increase in flight range too like the Kh-101 and Kh-102 over the Kh-55.


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    Morpheus Eberhardt

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    Re: INF Treaty - coming to the end of its life

    Post  Morpheus Eberhardt on Fri Dec 05, 2014 9:10 am

    Vann7 wrote:
    Morpheus Eberhardt wrote:
    George1 wrote:
    GarryB wrote:The INF treaty is a card Russia can play when it is useful.

    Right now it is not doing and damage to Russian security, but if that changes they are free to withdraw if they need to.

    Right now the INF treaty limits what ground based missile systems the US can deploy to Europe... any weapon... ballistic or cruise, ground to ground or ground to air, is banned by the INF treaty if its flight range is 500km to 5,500km... and if it is greater than 5,500km it is no longer an intermediate range missile... it becomes an ICBM, which comes under the New START treaty...

    Klub-K/M land attack cruise missile system violates INF Treaty?





    The domestic version would have a range above 5500 km.


    Klub have 5,500 km range? source?

    What do you mean by "source"? Do you think I personally know the designer, or do you think the designer reports to me?

    Just use deduction and calculate.


    Last edited by Morpheus Eberhardt on Fri Dec 05, 2014 9:14 am; edited 1 time in total
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    Morpheus Eberhardt

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    Re: INF Treaty - coming to the end of its life

    Post  Morpheus Eberhardt on Fri Dec 05, 2014 9:13 am

    Actually Kh-55SM and Kh-102 have ranges that are well above 10000 km.

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