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    INF Treaty - coming to the end of its life

    GunshipDemocracy
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    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Fri Mar 22, 2019 11:24 am

    magnumcromagnon wrote:
    Why not just convert a Zircon to launch munitions and fly back.  

    Aside material problems, not sure if software can deal with such speeds yet in autonomous flight yet. Mind that every drone now is subsonic, for a reason. But once supersonic/hypersonic unmanned 6gen fighters will be reality perhaps topic will return.
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    Post  GarryB on Fri Mar 22, 2019 9:50 pm

    Just change the accepted definition of "land"...

    Extend the wheels in a 60 degree spiralling dive at mach 12... it is landing... the 10 MT warhead will detonate 300m above the ground so it is not like it will crash.... Twisted Evil
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    Post  RTN on Tue Mar 26, 2019 12:11 pm

    Mindstorm wrote:
    USA analysts , like ours, are perfectly aware of those geo-strategic dynamics and that the actual exit from INF greatly penalize them while opening other enormous opportunities for us ,also and above all in the conventional struggle  and not only for the effect that on this balance will produce the grounding of the sub-strategic "Циркон" and "Кинжал" but above all because any future IRBM equiped with an Авангард vehicle will attain global reach while not being limited by START,  but them lack any credible alternatives.  

    Your point about lack of R & D is not true. The Glide Breaker program is being designed specifically to defeat hypersonic vehicles.

    https://www.fbo.gov/index.php?_cview=0&id=ba100893931fb47264d09521173f7435&mode=form&s=opportunity&tab=core

    Do IRBMs carry hypersonic glide vehicles ? If not they can be targetted using PAC 3.

    In any case what percentage of cruise missiles that Russia has (or even US has) are actually supersonic? Speed itself is not enough. Notice that there are no takers for Brahmos despite the fact that it is a supersonic missile.
    miketheterrible
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    Post  miketheterrible on Tue Mar 26, 2019 12:37 pm

    They fly low so you don't need speed tbh.

    And to add to that, Russian ICBM and SRBM are quasi ballistic, not fully ballistic meaning they don't fly a straight path.

    As for their anti Hypersonic system, well, judging by history they need to really work on getting their previous systems like THAAD and PAC-3 to actually work.
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    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Tue Mar 26, 2019 1:49 pm

    RTN wrote:

    Your point about lack of R & D is not true. The Glide Breaker program is being designed specifically to defeat hypersonic vehicles.

    https://www.fbo.gov/index.php?_cview=0&id=ba100893931fb47264d09521173f7435&mode=form&s=opportunity&tab=core

    it would be strange if there was no projects in the USA to defend against hypersonic gliders. Soviets had similar project in 1980' BTW . I posted this in Avangard thread
    The question is when they will be ready since ABM is not really working since late 90s'/2000s . Does it? then why Korean missile flying over Japan couldn't be intercepted by any of US missile.
    You understand propaganda effect it it was?


    Do IRBMs carry hypersonic glide vehicles ? If not they can be targetted using PAC 3.

    Iskander-M already does, this is one of sources you can use:
    When descending to the target, the rocket maneuvers with an overload of 20-30 units (G) primarily due to aerodynamic control surfaces. The rocket has a hypersonic speed on the final segment of the trajectory of 2100-2600 m / s

    https://www.strategic-culture.org/news/2016/09/19/russian-iskander-m-missile-system-credible-deterrent.html


    Rubezh+Avangard was foreseen as one system. And Rubezh was tested with 2000km for sure.



    R wrote: (1) what percentage of cruise missiles that Russia has (or even US has) are actually supersonic? Speed itself is not enough. (2) Notice that there are no takers for Brahmos despite the fact that it is a supersonic missile.

    (1) supersonic doesn't make sense for terrain flowing stealth missile (Kh-50, Kh-101/102) its RCS and low trajectory does the trick. But this is buy no means anti ABM weapons . War might be over before they reach destination.

    (2) better question with Brahmos is did India export any weapons ever?





    miketheterrible
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    Post  miketheterrible on Tue Mar 26, 2019 7:50 pm

    Add Kalibr to that list too.
    GunshipDemocracy
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    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Wed Mar 27, 2019 1:22 am

    miketheterrible wrote:Add Kalibr to that list too.

    hmm although Kalibr is a great CM I dont think is stealth optimized



    Kh-101
    INF Treaty - coming to the end of its life   - Page 29 X_101





    Kh-50
    INF Treaty - coming to the end of its life   - Page 29 Kh59MK2_02
    magnumcromagnon
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    Post  magnumcromagnon on Wed Mar 27, 2019 2:12 am

    GunshipDemocracy wrote:
    miketheterrible wrote:Add Kalibr to that list too.

    hmm although Kalibr is a great CM I dont think is stealth optimized

    Yes, not stealth optimized but there are ways around it. I remember when the first Kalibrs were fired from Buyan-M's into Syria from the Caspian Sea. Presumably the ECM assets in Syria were actually masking the presence of their flight. The Pentagon spokesman admitted they couldn't effectively track them. There's a saying in the English language "There's more than one way to skin a cat", RAM coating and stealth shaping are one way (only effective against X-band), the other ways include using electromagnetic spectrum opaque aerosol made up aluminum-silicate particulate which is effective in every wavelength, the other way was already mentioned is to use ECM to mask the presence of an object.
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    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Wed Mar 27, 2019 2:25 am

    magnumcromagnon wrote:Yes, not stealth optimized but there are ways around it. I remember when the first Kalibrs were fired from Buyan-M's into Syria from the Caspian Sea. Presumably the ECM assets in Syria were actually masking the presence of their flight. The Pentagon spokesman admitted they couldn't effectively track them. There's a saying in the English language "There's more than one way to skin a cat", RAM coating and stealth shaping are one way (only effective against X-band), the other ways include using electromagnetic spectrum opaque aerosol made up aluminum-silicate particulate which is effective in every wavelength, the other way was already mentioned is to use ECM to mask the presence of an object.

    There's no question about what you've said nonetheless Russian CMs' shape evolution shows this also has importance.
    In every case couple of hours waiting for CM application result is in war were Avangard go to antipodes in 30minutes a bit long for ABM attacking. For conventional war or retaliation of course this another story.
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    Post  magnumcromagnon on Wed Mar 27, 2019 2:34 am

    GunshipDemocracy wrote:
    magnumcromagnon wrote:Yes, not stealth optimized but there are ways around it. I remember when the first Kalibrs were fired from Buyan-M's into Syria from the Caspian Sea. Presumably the ECM assets in Syria were actually masking the presence of their flight. The Pentagon spokesman admitted they couldn't effectively track them. There's a saying in the English language "There's more than one way to skin a cat", RAM coating and stealth shaping are one way (only effective against X-band), the other ways include using electromagnetic spectrum opaque aerosol made up aluminum-silicate particulate which is effective in every wavelength, the other way was already mentioned is to use ECM to mask the presence of an object.

    There's no question about what you've said  nonetheless Russian  CMs' shape evolution shows this also has importance.
    In every case couple of hours waiting for CM application result is in war were Avangard go to antipodes in 30minutes a bit long for ABM attacking. For conventional war or retaliation of course this another story.

    So what do you think about the development of Kalibr-M? They'll be a range upgrade, but not a ram/shaping upgrade, which would otherwise be a naval Kh-101. It was speculated that Kh-101 would find it's way in to UKSK/M, but it seems like that's not the case. For that matter the USN has never attempted to make Tomahawks stealthy, and their obsession with stealth is myopic/tunnel-vision derangement level.
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    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Wed Mar 27, 2019 12:03 pm

    magnumcromagnon wrote:So what do you think about the development of Kalibr-M? They'll be a range upgrade, but not a ram/shaping upgrade, which would otherwise be a naval Kh-101. It was speculated that Kh-101 would find it's way in to UKSK/M, but it seems like that's not the case. For that matter the USN has never attempted to make Tomahawks stealthy, and their obsession with stealth is myopic/tunnel-vision derangement level.


    same question I might ask why Kh-50 is stealthy and Kh-101 external look changed as well... Tomahawks? build form 83? c'mon   nobody is gonna to redesign them  touching them. LRASM - is new and stealthy
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    Post  magnumcromagnon on Thu Jun 27, 2019 10:19 pm

    Guys, do you want a good a laugh? You want to see the prima faci definition of Orwellian double-think? I can't wait to hear from GarryB or kvs on this:

    The Pentagon began developing missiles in case of the collapse of the INF.

    The United States has announced the development of new non-nuclear missiles. According to the statement of the new executive head of the Pentagon, research is being conducted in case the DISMD is terminated.

    The Treaty on Medium and Short Range Missiles (DDRM), which is under threat of termination due to the policy of Donald Trump, may cause a new arms race. As stated by the. The head of the US military department, Mark Esper, in case of the termination of the agreement, Washington began the development of promising non-nuclear missiles.

    According to Esper, the United States complies with the provisions of the INF. However, "in order to cope with potential threats," America began developing new non-nuclear missiles. According to the head of the Pentagon, both research and development work in this direction is already underway.

    Esper: NATO should develop a missile defense system

    Mark Esper also noted that the United States and the North Atlantic Alliance should strengthen the missile defense system in order to defend themselves against any type of Russian cruise missile.

    "At the moment, European countries are under threat from cruise missiles with nuclear warheads from Russia."

    We do not want a new arms race.

    - declared Esper.

    History of SMDR

    The United States and the Soviet Union signed the Treaty on Medium and Short Range Missiles on December 8, 1987. On June 1, 1988, it entered into force. Thanks to this document, it was possible to overcome the crisis, which threatened to lead to an even greater arms race and significantly increased the risks of a nuclear war.

    The de jure treaty eliminated a whole class of missiles: the ban included the production, testing and deployment of medium-range ballistic and cruise missiles (medium range from 1,000 to 5,500 km) and a shorter range (from 500 to 1,000 km). In addition, launchers for these types of missiles fell under the same prohibitions.

    Some time ago, the United States accused the Russian Federation of violating the terms of the treaty, after which, on October 20 last year, United States President Donald Trump threatened to suspend its validity. After Trump's statements, US Secretary of State Mike Pompeo presented Russia with an ultimatum, according to which Moscow had to destroy or modify the 9M729 missile: Russia refused to do so.

    At the beginning of February, Washington suspended its participation in DPDMD 2, after which Russian President Vladimir Putin declared that Moscow’s response would be a mirror one. It is assumed that the United States will withdraw from the treaty in early July.


    https://topwar.ru/159510-pentagon-nachal-razrabotku-raket-na-sluchaj-kraha-drsmd.html

    Talk about a self-fulfilling prophecy! You develop INF violating missiles in case the INF treaty failed, only for the development cause the failure....and to openly admit it!!! How brazen!
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    Post  kvs on Thu Jun 27, 2019 10:33 pm

    I think even Eric Blair would cringe at the "logic" being spewed at Russia by NATO today.

    In the last few days NATO has given Russia an ultimatum to return to the INF even though the US has officially killed it.    Of course
    they do not expect Russia to comply.   But they do expect their lemming mass media consumers to swallow such shit up and sing
    praise be to NATO.    The ultimatum-based termination of the INF is argued to be a precursor to killing off New START by Russian
    pundits and I agree.  

    For some reason, the stellar intellect deciders in NATO have concluded that they need a nuclear arms race against Russia.
    I do not see what strategic advantage this gives them.   The only thing that I can think of is that these f*cktards are drinking
    their own urine koolaid that the USSR was bankrupted by the arms race.    As I have posted numerous times, missiles are the
    cheapest and highest bang for the buck weapons system period.    Russia is not going to waste money on building 60,000
    T-14 tanks.   It is not going to waste money build 50,000 Su-57s.   It is actually NATO that can go bankrupt since it has a
    totally corrupt MIC procurement process where the price reflects the desires of MIC corporations and not any sort of objective
    price.   If NATO does not build 60,000 Abrams, Leclercs and Leopards, then its MIC will turn missiles into price hogs like MBTs.  

    I expect a 2014 sanctions redux.   Obummer and the rest of NATO actually believed they would put Russia on its knees with
    the sanctions.   Instead, their sanctions were an epic fail and own goal.    This supports my contention that NATO deciders are
    drinking their own special koolaid.
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    Post  GarryB on Fri Jun 28, 2019 8:00 am

    It is really an opportunity for Russia... what they can do is develop IRsBMs and IRCMs (intermediate range... semi ballistic and cruise missiles)... the semi ballistic missiles can be hypersonic manouvering missiles, and cruise missiles are relatively cheap that will rely on the fact that the faster semi ballistic missiles will have already nuked the airfields and SAM sites that would be a threat to cruise missiles.

    The more expensive semi ballistic missiles could be designed to be the air breathing last stage when fitted with an enormous solid rocket booster first stage to a space launch system for small satellites.

    It means Russia could build thousands of hypersonic missiles to shred EU and NATO and US defences, that could alternatively be used during peacetime to launch small short term satellites which would also be useful in times of war to replace damaged systems.

    Cruise missiles also mass produced are relatively cheap and with conventional alternative warheads can be used in conventional wars too so they are both fully dual purpose and not wasted money at all.

    Provide all with nuke warheads for when you really mean business... with the new breeder reactors that should be relatively quick and easy to achieve anyway.

    I say screw the INF treaty... the Soviets mostly went bankrupt developing a fully integrated air defence network and new layered modern SAMs and now they are being rewarded with the fruits of their labour... keeping the INF treaty means the EU can ignore the threat and not bother spending trillions of dollars not to mention the arguments between states on developing a complete EU wide air defence network that is not purely based on fighter aircraft and AWACS platforms.

    Let the west waste an enormous amount of money setting up their own air defences too...

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