Military Forum for Russian and Global Defence Issues


    INF Treaty - coming to the end of its life

    GunshipDemocracy
    GunshipDemocracy

    Posts : 4940
    Points : 4968
    Join date : 2015-05-17
    Location : fishin on Stalin´s Strait between Mexico and Canada

    INF Treaty - coming to the end of its life   - Page 24 Empty Re: INF Treaty - coming to the end of its life

    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Sun Feb 17, 2019 2:04 pm

    Looks like the train has just departed... russia russia russia


    Russia began to develop medium-range ground-based missiles

    https://iz.ru/846537/2019-02-16/rossiia-nachala-razrabotku-raket-nazemnogo-bazirovaniia-srednei-dalnosti

    Russia began to develop medium-range ground-based missiles. This was announced by Deputy Foreign Minister Sergey Ryabkov during his speech at a panel session of the Munich Security Conference.


    "Russia began scientific, technical and development work in this area, like the United States," the TASS quoted the diplomat on Saturday, February 16 . Ryabkov recalled that in early February, Russian leader Vladimir Putin said that Russia would not deploy medium and shorter range missiles anywhere until Washington did.

    “What to do next is to be decided by the United States,” summed up the deputy minister. It depends on Washington whether the security of Europe and the USA will be threatened, but Russia will observe a unilateral moratorium. According to the diplomat, the risk that, due to the position of the United States, START-3 will cease to operate in 2021, is growing.

    On February 15, Russian Deputy Prime Minister Yury Borisov said that if the United States withdraws from the Treaty on the Elimination of Intermediate-Range and Shorter-Range Missiles (INF), Russia will take adequate measures in response to any threats from the United States.

    From February 2, Washington suspended fulfillment of obligations under the INF Treaty and began the exit process, reserving the right to return within six months. Moscow responded on the same day to suspend participation in the treaty. Russian leader Vladimir Putin endorsed a proposal by Defense Minister Sergei Shoigu to begin developing a medium-range, hypersonic ground-based missile.

    American leader Donald Trump announced his intention to withdraw from the INF Treaty in October 2018 under the pretext of Moscow’s failure to comply with the document’s points and the presence of the 9M729 missile, which, in his opinion, violates the document’s conditions. In January, the Russian Ministry of Defense for the first time showed this missile to foreign military attaches, representatives of the United States and several European countries refused to participate in the briefing.

    The INF Treaty was concluded between the USSR and the USA in December 1987 and entered into force in June 1988. The document prohibits the two countries to produce and deploy ballistic and cruise missiles of medium (damage zone 1–5.5 thousand km) and shorter (damage zone 0.5–1 thousand km) range.
    kvs
    kvs

    Posts : 5168
    Points : 5295
    Join date : 2014-09-11
    Location : Canuckistan

    INF Treaty - coming to the end of its life   - Page 24 Empty Re: INF Treaty - coming to the end of its life

    Post  kvs on Sun Feb 17, 2019 6:09 pm

    Putin instructed the Minister of Defense to have a hypersonic system ready by 2022. It looks to me like Kinzhal will get a first booster
    stage which will make it much faster to launch than via the Mig-31. It may even develop a speed faster than MACH 10. Since the
    payload of the Kinzhal is already 500 kg, it is the perfect nuclear fast-response missile for the job.
    GunshipDemocracy
    GunshipDemocracy

    Posts : 4940
    Points : 4968
    Join date : 2015-05-17
    Location : fishin on Stalin´s Strait between Mexico and Canada

    INF Treaty - coming to the end of its life   - Page 24 Empty Re: INF Treaty - coming to the end of its life

    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Sun Feb 17, 2019 8:06 pm

    kvs wrote:Putin instructed the Minister of Defense to have a hypersonic system ready by 2022.    It looks to me like Kinzhal will get a first booster
    stage which will make it much faster to launch than via the Mig-31.    It may even develop a speed faster than MACH 10.   Since the
    payload of the Kinzhal is already 500 kg, it is the perfect nuclear fast-response missile for the job.

    Kinzhal's is Iskander adapted for aeroblistic lunch. Then we have Iskander -> Kinzhal -> Iskader Razz Razz Razz

    True, Rubezh might be too large to be used s SRBM it is more like Pioneer replacement.

    Moscow Paris.......- 2,500km,
    Moscow London....- 2,500km



    Beefing up Iskander makes more sense for something 1500-2,000km. Most likely also cheaper.
    Yars vs. Rubezh

    INF Treaty - coming to the end of its life   - Page 24 41f28ce4f9422c8f1a619c99c7dfc1d0







    kvs
    kvs

    Posts : 5168
    Points : 5295
    Join date : 2014-09-11
    Location : Canuckistan

    INF Treaty - coming to the end of its life   - Page 24 Empty Re: INF Treaty - coming to the end of its life

    Post  kvs on Sun Feb 17, 2019 8:11 pm

    GunshipDemocracy wrote:
    kvs wrote:Putin instructed the Minister of Defense to have a hypersonic system ready by 2022.    It looks to me like Kinzhal will get a first booster
    stage which will make it much faster to launch than via the Mig-31.    It may even develop a speed faster than MACH 10.   Since the
    payload of the Kinzhal is already 500 kg, it is the perfect nuclear fast-response missile for the job.

    Kinzhal's is Iskander adapted for aeroblistic lunch. Then we have Iskander -> Kinzhal -> Iskader Razz Razz Razz

    True, Rubezh might be too large to be used s SRBM it is more like Pioneer replacement.

    Moscow Paris.......- 2,500km,  
    Moscow London....- 2,500km



    Beefing up  Iskander makes more sense for something 1500-2,000km.  Most likely  also cheaper.
    Yars vs. Rubezh

    INF Treaty - coming to the end of its life   - Page 24 41f28ce4f9422c8f1a619c99c7dfc1d0



    I think the key is "hypersonic". Russia will deploy "dead INF violating" missiles designed to take out Aegis and Aegis ashore installations faster
    than they can serve their alleged "ABM" function. Romania, Poland, Japan and any other US bitch that wants to enable some mythical
    first strike advantage against Russia is going to feel the blowback.
    GarryB
    GarryB

    Posts : 23001
    Points : 23543
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    INF Treaty - coming to the end of its life   - Page 24 Empty Re: INF Treaty - coming to the end of its life

    Post  GarryB on Mon Feb 18, 2019 4:42 am


    the most interesting here is timing. You need to sink AEGIS before it shoots missiles to intercept Russian ICBMs

    Low trajectory hypersonic missiles launched from the arctic circle at ships in the arctic ocean without exiting the atmosphere would get a good distance to a ship in the sea sitting under the trajectory if ICBMs on high ballistic paths launched from further south in Russia... they don't need to shoot down US ABM missiles... just taking out those radars that supply the ABM systems with information should be enough...

    It sounds like backing down and withdrawing the system the US is bitching about that Putin is calling their bluff.... this will be interesting...

    Perhaps a change in tactics from Putin?

    Maybe tired of US and EU aggression?
    GunshipDemocracy
    GunshipDemocracy

    Posts : 4940
    Points : 4968
    Join date : 2015-05-17
    Location : fishin on Stalin´s Strait between Mexico and Canada

    INF Treaty - coming to the end of its life   - Page 24 Empty Re: INF Treaty - coming to the end of its life

    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Tue Feb 19, 2019 10:09 am

    kvs wrote:
    I think the key is "hypersonic".   Russia will deploy "dead INF violating" missiles designed to take out Aegis and Aegis ashore installations faster
    than they can serve their alleged "ABM" function.    Romania, Poland, Japan and any other US bitch that wants to enable some mythical
    first strike advantage against Russia is going to feel the blowback.

    hypersonic I agree but together with "gliding vehicle" or highly maneuvering warhead  with  non-ballistic trajectory. Otherwise what should be the difference between IRBM nd hypersonic .


    "in my IMHO' INF has force multiplier effect.  No need for so many fighters/bombers so large navy or army anymore.



    GarryB wrote:
    It sounds like backing down and withdrawing the system the US is bitching about that Putin is calling their bluff.... this will be interesting...

    Perhaps a change in tactics from Putin? Maybe tired of US and EU aggression?
    \\

    tactics continuously evolves as situation does however unlikely Putin wants war. Rising stakes works IMHO in decreasing US aggression plans. Similarly as first Soviet ICBMs did to plans to use nuke bombardments of Soviet cities


    Last edited by GunshipDemocracy on Tue Feb 19, 2019 10:30 am; edited 1 time in total
    miketheterrible
    miketheterrible

    Posts : 4016
    Points : 3996
    Join date : 2016-11-06

    INF Treaty - coming to the end of its life   - Page 24 Empty Re: INF Treaty - coming to the end of its life

    Post  miketheterrible on Tue Feb 19, 2019 10:19 am

    Well, Kalibr in a ground based launchers platform is enough to take out those ABM systems. Enough to take out most systems. Salvo launch and make some with a nuclear warhead and it's game over.
    GunshipDemocracy
    GunshipDemocracy

    Posts : 4940
    Points : 4968
    Join date : 2015-05-17
    Location : fishin on Stalin´s Strait between Mexico and Canada

    INF Treaty - coming to the end of its life   - Page 24 Empty Re: INF Treaty - coming to the end of its life

    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Tue Feb 19, 2019 10:32 am

    miketheterrible wrote:Well, Kalibr in a ground based launchers platform is enough to take out those ABM systems. Enough to take out most systems. Salvo launch and make some with a nuclear warhead and it's game over.


    not with current range 500km tho. Romanian AEGIS is like 900km for Crimea, Alaskan one ~1,400 km from Russian mainland.
    GarryB
    GarryB

    Posts : 23001
    Points : 23543
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    INF Treaty - coming to the end of its life   - Page 24 Empty Re: INF Treaty - coming to the end of its life

    Post  GarryB on Wed Feb 20, 2019 1:45 am

    I rather suspect a backup use for Kinzhal could be to attack ABM sites... mach 2.5 to within 2,000km of the target and then mach 10 for the final stretch is the fastest way to deal the blow... but of course you need some warning to get you plane into the air first...

    But then again they wont just launch one missile, it will be a full scale attack which would be impossible to conceal... there will be plenty of westerners within the system who would rather commit treason that suicide/genocide like snowden etc.

    The point is that for the US the missiles covered by the INF treaty are short and medium range and are normally inconsequential in the wider scheme of things, while for Russia a lot of their big powerful missiles are being used up pointed at targets smaller lighter cheaper missiles could otherwise deal with effectively... these smaller missiles are theatre missiles for the US but strategic missiles for Russia vs EU or Japan or Canada or the UK.

    I think Putin could easily have ordered the withdrawal of this single missile system if he really wanted to keep the INF treaty, but he realises it limits Russia rather more than it limits the west.

    I am sure he would be happy to renegotiate with a new treaty, but the US will want to include China and why would they want to limit a missile type they have as their primary self defence weapon? And I would think Russia will want all of NATO and the EU included in the deal too and I don't think the French would be happy about that... let alone the UK...

    The INF treaty didn't ban sea or aircraft launched weapons in those categories so Russia has been preparing defences to defend itself from such things anyway... it has been improving its radar coverage and its SAM performance and completely revolutionising its IADS... the EU will pretty much have to start from scratch... individual countries don't even have their own IADS let alone an inter european one... and even if they were handed an operating integrated system fully ready to go... who would be in charge? France and Germany and other countries will fight forever on that one....
    GunshipDemocracy
    GunshipDemocracy

    Posts : 4940
    Points : 4968
    Join date : 2015-05-17
    Location : fishin on Stalin´s Strait between Mexico and Canada

    INF Treaty - coming to the end of its life   - Page 24 Empty Re: INF Treaty - coming to the end of its life

    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Wed Feb 20, 2019 3:01 am

    GarryB wrote:I rather suspect a backup use for Kinzhal could be to attack ABM sites... mach 2.5 to within 2,000km of the target and then mach 10 for the final stretch is the fastest way to deal the blow...


    i'd say 2-2,5Ma start/launch speed then up to 10Ma burnout speed - what is the terminal one we wont know anytime soon. BTW now when INF is dead Kizhal can return to down to earth. I just wonder how will look like new "hypersonic missiles? Avangard is gre at but IMHO too expensive. Something cheaper - and ground based. for SRBM , As for IRBM I still see Avangard-Rubezh s most probable candidate.



    GB wrote: The point is that for the US the missiles covered by the INF treaty are short and medium range and are normally inconsequential in the wider scheme of things, while for Russia a lot of their big powerful missiles are being used up pointed at targets smaller lighter cheaper missiles could otherwise deal with effectively... these smaller missiles are theatre missiles for the US but strategic missiles for Russia vs EU or Japan or Canada or the UK.

    well USA from LA-> Las Vegas -> ICBMsites -> Chicgo too russia russia russia



    GB wrote:I think Putin could easily have ordered the withdrawal of this single missile system if he really wanted to keep the INF treaty, but he realises it limits Russia rather more than it limits the west.

    this missile was IMHO for trolling US. US wanted to discuss only Russian disarmament nothing about Mk.41



    GB wrote: The INF treaty didn't ban sea or aircraft launched weapons in those categories so Russia has been preparing defences to defend itself from such things anyway... it has been improving its radar coverage and its SAM performance and completely revolutionising its IADS... the EU will pretty much have to start from scratch... individual countries don't even have their own IADS let alone an inter european one... and even if they were handed an operating integrated system fully ready to go... who would be in charge?  France and Germany and other countries will fight forever on that one....

    There will be no EU but France (sovereign, not financially but still with nukes ) Germany major vassal / " junior partner" - rest second range vassals.
    higurashihougi
    higurashihougi

    Posts : 2269
    Points : 2360
    Join date : 2014-08-13
    Location : A small and cutie S-shaped land.

    INF Treaty - coming to the end of its life   - Page 24 Empty Re: INF Treaty - coming to the end of its life

    Post  higurashihougi on Wed Feb 20, 2019 1:39 pm

    Russia finally say what is needed to be said.

    https://www.rt.com/news/451960-russia-deployment-missiles-europe/

    "I am telling you this now, openly and clearly, so that nobody can blame us later and people know exactly what we are talking about,” Putin stressed.

    “Russia will be forced to create and deploy weapon systems, which can be used not only against the territories from which this direct threat would be projected, but also against those territories where decision centers are located, from which an order to use those weapons against us may come.”
    Hole
    Hole

    Posts : 2459
    Points : 2457
    Join date : 2018-03-24
    Age : 43
    Location : Merkelland

    INF Treaty - coming to the end of its life   - Page 24 Empty Re: INF Treaty - coming to the end of its life

    Post  Hole on Wed Feb 20, 2019 4:55 pm

    Poor Belgium. cry
    miketheterrible
    miketheterrible

    Posts : 4016
    Points : 3996
    Join date : 2016-11-06

    INF Treaty - coming to the end of its life   - Page 24 Empty Re: INF Treaty - coming to the end of its life

    Post  miketheterrible on Wed Feb 20, 2019 6:58 pm

    GunshipDemocracy wrote:
    miketheterrible wrote:Well, Kalibr in a ground based launchers platform is enough to take out those ABM systems. Enough to take out most systems. Salvo launch and make some with a nuclear warhead and it's game over.


    not with current range 500km tho.  Romanian AEGIS  is like 900km for Crimea, Alaskan one ~1,400 km from Russian mainland.

    I think you are not getting what I am saying and have said already 4 times in this thread - Navy based Kalibr. Which Putin and Shoigu both verified is being done.
    dino00
    dino00

    Posts : 1093
    Points : 1134
    Join date : 2012-10-12
    Age : 32
    Location : portugal

    INF Treaty - coming to the end of its life   - Page 24 Empty Re: INF Treaty - coming to the end of its life

    Post  dino00 on Wed Feb 20, 2019 11:20 pm

    kvs
    kvs

    Posts : 5168
    Points : 5295
    Join date : 2014-09-11
    Location : Canuckistan

    INF Treaty - coming to the end of its life   - Page 24 Empty Re: INF Treaty - coming to the end of its life

    Post  kvs on Wed Feb 20, 2019 11:58 pm

    US exceptional idiots were surprised Russia had cruise missiles that it could fire off from the Caspian Sea to take out targets in Syria.
    Stop and think about that for a bit.   How detached from reality must these idiots be that they actually thought that Russia with its
    legacy of USSR technological achievement had no long range cruise missiles.    I guess these morons must have been sniffing too much
    fake stream media glue and thought all Russian missiles have CEP bigger than the Solar System.    As if the USSR didn't have any
    cruise missiles and Russia didn't have any skilled designers and engineers to develop newer variants.

    These same "decider" morons clearly have no clue about Russia's IRBM capability.   Once again, they probably think that all Russian
    IRBMs will fail to even hit the correct country hosting US anti-Russian military installations.   They are this badly deluded.   I think
    Russia needs to manufacture and publicly demonstrate its missile systems.   There is no point keeping them "top secret" if the enemy
    thinks you either don't have them or they aren't worth sh*t.    Uncle Scumbag and his minions need more surprises like Syria.    Maybe
    they will buy a clue.
    GunshipDemocracy
    GunshipDemocracy

    Posts : 4940
    Points : 4968
    Join date : 2015-05-17
    Location : fishin on Stalin´s Strait between Mexico and Canada

    INF Treaty - coming to the end of its life   - Page 24 Empty Re: INF Treaty - coming to the end of its life

    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Thu Feb 21, 2019 1:38 am

    miketheterrible wrote:
    GunshipDemocracy wrote:
    miketheterrible wrote:Well, Kalibr in a ground based launchers platform is enough to take out those ABM systems. Enough to take out most systems. Salvo launch and make some with a nuclear warhead and it's game over.


    not with current range 500km tho.  Romanian AEGIS  is like 900km for Crimea, Alaskan one ~1,400 km from Russian mainland.

    I think you are not getting what I am saying and have said already 4 times in this thread - Navy based Kalibr. Which Putin and Shoigu both verified is being done.


    Subsonic Kalibr flies form Crime to Romania an hour. Is that you want to say? or you place ships cose to Alaska, Japan or on Rumina coast?
    GunshipDemocracy
    GunshipDemocracy

    Posts : 4940
    Points : 4968
    Join date : 2015-05-17
    Location : fishin on Stalin´s Strait between Mexico and Canada

    INF Treaty - coming to the end of its life   - Page 24 Empty Re: INF Treaty - coming to the end of its life

    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Thu Feb 21, 2019 2:45 am

    kvs wrote:... .

    like your way of thinking.



    I spilled coffee on my KB but damn it was wort it. So crimnl with knife pointed t you sy its unacceptable that you carry a gun or self defense ? lol1 lol1 lol1

    Unacceptable!’ - NATO hits back at Putin’s THREAT to target US and allies with missiles

    NATO has hit back at Russian President Vladimir Putin’s “unacceptable” threat to target US missile sites in Europe, as well as “decision-making centres” in the US.


    https://www.express.co.uk/news/world/1090190/World-War-3-NATO-Russia-Vladimir-Putin-US-Donald-Trump-missiles-INF-treaty
    kvs
    kvs

    Posts : 5168
    Points : 5295
    Join date : 2014-09-11
    Location : Canuckistan

    INF Treaty - coming to the end of its life   - Page 24 Empty Re: INF Treaty - coming to the end of its life

    Post  kvs on Thu Feb 21, 2019 2:50 am

    GunshipDemocracy wrote:
    kvs wrote:... .

    like your way of thinking.



    I spilled coffee on my KB  but damn it was wort it.  So crimnl with knife pointed t you sy its unacceptable that you carry a  gun or self defense ?   lol1  lol1  lol1

    Unacceptable!’ - NATO hits back at Putin’s THREAT to target US and allies with missiles


    NATO has hit back at Russian President Vladimir Putin’s “unacceptable” threat to target US missile sites in Europe, as well as “decision-making centres” in the US.


    https://www.express.co.uk/news/world/1090190/World-War-3-NATO-Russia-Vladimir-Putin-US-Donald-Trump-missiles-INF-treaty


    Sad, yapping chihuahua. No amount of barking at Russia will restore the INF. If they think that Russia will roll over and conform to the dead INF,
    then they can go get f*cked. And this statement just demonstrates my point about the clowns running NATO being detached from reality.
    GunshipDemocracy
    GunshipDemocracy

    Posts : 4940
    Points : 4968
    Join date : 2015-05-17
    Location : fishin on Stalin´s Strait between Mexico and Canada

    INF Treaty - coming to the end of its life   - Page 24 Empty Re: INF Treaty - coming to the end of its life

    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Thu Feb 21, 2019 4:24 am

    kvs wrote: Sad, yapping chihuahua.   No amount of barking at Russia will restore the INF.   If they think that Russia will roll over and conform to the dead INF,
    then they can go get f*cked.   And this statement just demonstrates my point about the clowns running NATO being detached from reality.

    meeh not sad, on the contrary funny.

    When Putin finished his speech :
    Williamson's looks - priceless, for the rest you can pay by MasterCard Mir.
    GarryB
    GarryB

    Posts : 23001
    Points : 23543
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    INF Treaty - coming to the end of its life   - Page 24 Empty Re: INF Treaty - coming to the end of its life

    Post  GarryB on Thu Feb 21, 2019 9:31 am

    Russia should leave all european organisations where it no longer has voting rights and just look elsewhere for trade partners.

    It does not help Russia to develop trade links with the west when the next round of sanctions will just target them...

    Russia should look to the rest of the world for trade and cooperation opportunities... Russia doesn't need the west to develop and grow and would probably to better without them trying to stunt their growth and options for the future.

    Drink a toast to the end of the INF treaty and move on...

    Russia is like the punch drunk wife thinking the abusive husband is her only chance of a future... deep down he actually loves you and you will live happily ever after if only he could stop drinking and womanising and sleeping with your sisters and neighbours and the local soccer team...

    BTW I see on another thread that the new upgraded small model Brahmos... the Su-30 can carry five instead of just one of the original... if they are doing the same with Zircon that would be excellent.... they would be able to get 6 on each ground based launcher for trucks and ships and trains...
    magnumcromagnon
    magnumcromagnon

    Posts : 5314
    Points : 5467
    Join date : 2013-12-05
    Location : Pindos ave., Pindosville, Pindosylvania, Pindostan

    INF Treaty - coming to the end of its life   - Page 24 Empty Re: INF Treaty - coming to the end of its life

    Post  magnumcromagnon on Thu Feb 21, 2019 2:24 pm

    There was questions on how much the symmetrical/asymmetrical response would be to the death of the INF-Treaty, well not nearly as much as you think...according to Shoigu:

    Shoigu: the main advantage of the newest Russian systems is unattainable efficiency


    INF Treaty - coming to the end of its life   - Page 24 Shoigu_glavnoe_dostoinstvo_noveishih_rossiiskih_sistem__nedosyagaemaya_effektivnost-g01bf9wt-1550665981.t

    All the promising weapons systems that the Supreme Commander spoke about in the Address to the Federal Assembly a year ago already exist in the gland, and some in operation, said Defense Minister of the Russian Federation Army General Sergei Shoigu.

    “All this is an absolute reality. The most important advantage of the newest Russian systems is inaccessible efficiency. At the same time, our colleagues abroad realize that our developments are hundreds of times cheaper than any systems deployed against us. And not only the US defense,” the Minister of Defense said RF.


    https://vpk.name/news/251250_shoigu_glavnoe_dostoinstvo_noveishih_rossiiskih_sistem__nedosyagaemaya_effektivnost.html
    miketheterrible
    miketheterrible

    Posts : 4016
    Points : 3996
    Join date : 2016-11-06

    INF Treaty - coming to the end of its life   - Page 24 Empty Re: INF Treaty - coming to the end of its life

    Post  miketheterrible on Thu Feb 21, 2019 3:04 pm

    GunshipDemocracy wrote:
    miketheterrible wrote:
    GunshipDemocracy wrote:
    miketheterrible wrote:Well, Kalibr in a ground based launchers platform is enough to take out those ABM systems. Enough to take out most systems. Salvo launch and make some with a nuclear warhead and it's game over.


    not with current range 500km tho.  Romanian AEGIS  is like 900km for Crimea, Alaskan one ~1,400 km from Russian mainland.

    I think you are not getting what I am saying and have said already 4 times in this thread - Navy based Kalibr. Which Putin and Shoigu both verified is being done.


    Subsonic Kalibr flies form Crime to Romania an hour. Is that you want to say? or you place ships cose to Alaska, Japan or on Rumina coast?

    Reading comprehension isn't your strong point. But English isn't your first language so it isn't your fault.

    What I'm saying is: first step is the correct step and all other steps following suite will be good enough to wait till they are fully ready. In that the Navy Kalibr missile being placed for land launched structures (which I mentioned should be first step before even Putin and Shoigu confirmed it) is rather intelligent as it's a cheap and easy way to have long range missiles ready to hit most of Europe at any given moment.

    But yes, they will need faster. And since Zircon is stated to fit current Kalibr launch systems, gives a rather strong hint that they (Zircon) will also fit in the land launch structure.

    Khinzal is very smart too and increasing those numbers are a must.
    Hole
    Hole

    Posts : 2459
    Points : 2457
    Join date : 2018-03-24
    Age : 43
    Location : Merkelland

    INF Treaty - coming to the end of its life   - Page 24 Empty Re: INF Treaty - coming to the end of its life

    Post  Hole on Thu Feb 21, 2019 5:19 pm

    Kalibers are slow (just like Tomahawk) but flying very low. And for the next 5 - 10 years the west will have no air defence system capable of dealing with cruise missiles. A mix would be best, some Kinzhal/Zirkon/other hypersonic missiles which we don´t know yet to defeat ABM and hardened sites (well protected with air defence systems) and Kalibers for the rest. That most of the new russian systems are interchangeable (each launch system can use any or most missiles) will be a pain in the neck for western politicians.
    Big_Gazza
    Big_Gazza

    Posts : 1734
    Points : 1736
    Join date : 2014-08-25
    Location : Melbourne, Australia

    INF Treaty - coming to the end of its life   - Page 24 Empty Re: INF Treaty - coming to the end of its life

    Post  Big_Gazza on Fri Feb 22, 2019 2:39 am

    kvs wrote:Sad, yapping chihuahua.   No amount of barking at Russia will restore the INF.   If they think that Russia will roll over and conform to the dead INF,
    then they can go get f*cked.   And this statement just demonstrates my point about the clowns running NATO being detached from reality.

    Nicely said, and its good to see you back at RDF. Very Happy
    GunshipDemocracy
    GunshipDemocracy

    Posts : 4940
    Points : 4968
    Join date : 2015-05-17
    Location : fishin on Stalin´s Strait between Mexico and Canada

    INF Treaty - coming to the end of its life   - Page 24 Empty Re: INF Treaty - coming to the end of its life

    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Fri Feb 22, 2019 3:26 am

    miketheterrible wrote:

    Reading comprehension isn't your strong point. But English isn't your first language so it isn't your fault.


    below there is your original quote. Enlighten me how you gonna reach ABM before interceptors are launched?

    miketheterrible wrote:Well, Kalibr in a ground based launchers platform is enough to take out those ABM systems. Enough to take out most systems. Salvo launch and make some with a nuclear warhead and it's game over.

    Sponsored content

    INF Treaty - coming to the end of its life   - Page 24 Empty Re: INF Treaty - coming to the end of its life

    Post  Sponsored content


      Current date/time is Sat Jan 18, 2020 1:07 pm