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    INF Treaty - coming to the end of its life

    magnumcromagnon
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    Post  magnumcromagnon Fri Dec 27, 2013 12:11 am

    TR1 wrote:Navyfield apparently does not get Russia does not care about the US using shorter range missiles.

    The concern is China.

    So yes, useless treaties should absolutely be withdrawn from.

    The concern is not China at all, but in fact NATO. Don't allow yourself to be a pawn in a greater game, the people who are advocating "Evil Red China" as a threat to Russia is not even the Russian MOD itself but in fact "Mr. Afghan War" himself Zbigniew Brzezinski, Andrew "Yoda" Marshall, the Rand Corporation, NATO, the British Foreign Office, and the Pentagon.

    Andrew "Yoda" Marshall of the Pentagon's Office of Net Assessment has a front group called the "Defense Science Board" which was created in response to China's anti-satellite missile test in 2007. The Defense Science Board authored a study called "The Great Siberian War of 2030":

    http://www.dod.gov/pubs/foi/International_security_affairs/china/09-F-0759theGreatSiberianWarOf2030.pdf

    ...In actuality since the 1960's the Pentagon's main goal in Asia was to foster,foment, and instigate war between Russia and China. Hell the late Tom Clancy who would get interviews with top Neo-Con think thanks, Pentagon study groups, and officials for inspiration for his books, wrote one book in particular called "The Bear and the Dragon" which sounds similar to the Great Siberian War of 2030:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Bear_and_the_Dragon

    ...Now time to answer the question at hand, since when did the Pentagon all of sudden care for the well-being of the Russian diaspora? Obviously that's a sick joke, the Pentagon doesn't care about the Russian diaspora at all! The guy who runs the Office of Net Assessment is not Yoda, the so called "Futurologist" is actually a guy who loves creating self-fulfilling prophecies; he should go by the new moniker: Andrew "Senator Palpatine" Marshall...

    INF Treaty - coming to the end of its life   - Page 3 FF_marshall_116_1


    If China was really the threat than why would the Russian MOD work with the PRC on missile defense? According to Russia’s Deputy Defense Minister Anatoly Antonov "Our dialogue with China on missile defense is very important, our colleagues from the People’s Republic of China have the same concerns on US global missile defense plans."

    http://en.itar-tass.com/russia/709553


    It's not just America that want's to spread it's nuclear influence in Europe, but France a non-signator of the INF treaty wants in on all the nuclear sharing action. In September 2007 the French president Nicolas Sarkozy offered Germany to participate in the control over the French nuclear arsenal. Chancellor Merkel and foreign minister Steinmeier declined the offer however, stating that Germany "had no interest in possessing nuclear weapons":

    http://www.spiegel.de/politik/deutschland/ueberraschender-vorstoss-sarkozy-bot-deutschland-atomwaffen-an-a-505887.html


    ...So the issue isn't China at all, but the NATO aggressor force.


    Last edited by magnumcromagnon on Fri Dec 27, 2013 12:19 am; edited 1 time in total
    zg18
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    Post  zg18 Fri Dec 27, 2013 12:18 am

    magnumcromagnon wrote:The concern is not China at all, but in fact NATO.

    Well , both of you are right , so to speak. The problem is when it comes to military it`s not intention what counts but capabilities. If Chinese develop their IRBM force and Russian cannot because of INF , than that is an issue. While you`re right , that NATO is primary adversary for Russian Federation.
    magnumcromagnon
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    Post  magnumcromagnon Fri Dec 27, 2013 12:23 am

    zg18 wrote:
    magnumcromagnon wrote:The concern is not China at all, but in fact NATO.

    Well , both of you are right , so to speak. The problem is when it comes to military it`s not intention what counts but capabilities. If Chinese develop their IRBM force and Russian cannot because of INF , than that is an issue. While you`re right , that NATO is primary adversary for Russian Federation.

    ...Of course the mission of your armed forces is to be prepared to fight anyone, at any time even China, however the people who advocating war between Russia and China, are not Russian nor are they Chinese, they're Pentagonese and NATOnese.
    zg18
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    INF Treaty - coming to the end of its life   - Page 3 Empty INF treaty is pretty much useless

    Post  zg18 Fri Dec 27, 2013 12:30 am

    magnumcromagnon wrote:...Of course the mission of your armed forces is to be prepared to fight anyone, at any time even China, however the people who advocating war between Russia and China, are not Russian nor are they Chinese, they're Pentagonese and NATOnese.

    Because this people are mostly stupid , Siberia and Russian Far East have larger population than Canada. And that there is a tiny belt where people can live in greater numbers (like in Canada).

    For China , if it can buy all energy and resources , great , it`s cheaper than risk utter devastation. And secondly , Russia isn`t only buffer for Europe when it comes to China , but also vice versa. Russia is the reason why China will never get fully encircled and cut off from supplies and commodities.
    Viktor
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    Post  Viktor Thu Jan 30, 2014 12:08 pm

    Hahaha the word is out in the opet for lunatic mass media to pick it up  Cool 

    U.S. Says Russia Tested Missile, Despite Treaty
    gaurav
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    Post  gaurav Thu Jan 30, 2014 5:12 pm

    Man this is as going to be crazy as ever.




    The United States informed its NATO allies this month that Russia had tested
    a new ground-launched cruise missile, raising concerns about Moscow’s compliance with a landmark arms control accord.

    I cant believe this crap. They are literally saying RS-24 and RS-26(Avanguard) are cruise missiles.

    These chinese specialists now running the pentagon have truly gone mad. They dont even know the difference between
    ICBM and cruise missile.

    These china focused Pentagon might be getting a little tizzy.. Twisted Evil
    Viktor
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    Post  Viktor Sun Feb 09, 2014 11:52 pm

    Nice read ...  thumbsup 

    What lies behind US allegations of Russian ICBM missile tests?

    specially this part (by Viktor Litovkin)

    The RS-26 Rubezh is an intercontinental ballistic missile (ICBM), meaning that it follows a ballistic trajectory to reach the target. Cruise missiles, on the other hand, fly horizontally just above the Earth's surface, sticking closely to the surface topography. ICBMs have a range of up to 11,500 km, whereas cruise missiles, as a rule, have a much more limited range of up to 3,500 km.
    The cause of the latest ruckus is that, in a certain sense, the warhead used with the Rubezh ICBM behaves as a cruise missile in its own right. After being launched from a mobile ground-based platform, the RS-26 climbs straight upwards.
    Once it has reached a certain altitude, it starts to follow a curved ballistic trajectory towards the target. Then during the descending section of that trajectory, with only a few hundred miles left to the target, the warhead suddenly takes a dive, loses altitude, and continues the approach as a cruise missile, i.e. flying horizontally along the Earth's surface. Detecting such a warhead by radars or other traditional means is impossible; neither can the warhead be intercepted.


    According to Gen. Zarudnitsky, once the Rubezh passes the trial program it will enter service with the Strategic Missile Troops (the Russian land-based nuclear forces). The first missile regiment will begin receiving these missiles later in 2014.


    RS-26 seems to be quite a missile  sniper 
    magnumcromagnon
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    Post  magnumcromagnon Mon Feb 10, 2014 6:52 pm

    Viktor wrote:Nice read ...  thumbsup 

    What lies behind US allegations of Russian ICBM missile tests?

    specially this part (by Viktor Litovkin)

    The RS-26 Rubezh is an intercontinental ballistic missile (ICBM), meaning that it follows a ballistic trajectory to reach the target. Cruise missiles, on the other hand, fly horizontally just above the Earth's surface, sticking closely to the surface topography. ICBMs have a range of up to 11,500 km, whereas cruise missiles, as a rule, have a much more limited range of up to 3,500 km.
    The cause of the latest ruckus is that, in a certain sense, the warhead used with the Rubezh ICBM behaves as a cruise missile in its own right. After being launched from a mobile ground-based platform, the RS-26 climbs straight upwards.
    Once it has reached a certain altitude, it starts to follow a curved ballistic trajectory towards the target. Then during the descending section of that trajectory, with only a few hundred miles left to the target, the warhead suddenly takes a dive, loses altitude, and continues the approach as a cruise missile, i.e. flying horizontally along the Earth's surface. Detecting such a warhead by radars or other traditional means is impossible; neither can the warhead be intercepted.


    According to Gen. Zarudnitsky, once the Rubezh passes the trial program it will enter service with the Strategic Missile Troops (the Russian land-based nuclear forces). The first missile regiment will begin receiving these missiles later in 2014.


    RS-26 seems to be quite a missile  sniper 

    I wonder if it's possible to integrate a theater short range ballistic missile like Iskander-M in to an ICBM, now that would be something wouldn't it?
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    Post  AlfaT8 Tue Jul 29, 2014 8:25 pm

    White House accuses Russia of violating Intermediate-Range Nuclear Forces Treaty
    United States President Barack Obama has formally accused his Russian counterpart of violating a 1987 nuclear weapons treaty, the White House said on Tuesday.

    Pres. Obama wrote Russia’s Vladimir Putin, White House press secretary John Earnest said during a routine briefing Tuesday afternoon, informing him that the US has determined that Russia has violated the Intermediate-Range Nuclear Forces Treaty, a pact signed by Presidents Ronald Reagan and Mikhail Gorbachev nearly 30 years ago.
    http://rt.com/usa/176492-obama-accuses-russia-nuclear-treaty/

    Washington Says Moscow Violated INF Treaty
    MOSCOW, July 29 (RIA Novosti) — The United States has claimed Russia violated the Intermediate-Range Nuclear Forces Treaty (INF) by testing a prohibited ground-launched cruise missile, The New York Times reported citing senior US officials.

    According to the newspaper, US President Barack Obama conveyed his findings to Russian President Vladimir Putin in a letter Monday.
    http://en.ria.ru/politics/20140729/191425404/Washington-Says-Moscow-Violated-INF-Treaty.html

    Yea, i know this isn't anything to be surprised about, but since the U.S has now "formally" accused Russia of violating the treaty, Russia should take this opportunity to "formally" leaves said worthless one sided treaty!!  Twisted Evil

    Edit:
    Video title is misleading.


    Last edited by AlfaT8 on Tue Jul 29, 2014 10:00 pm; edited 1 time in total
    Mike E
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    Post  Mike E Tue Jul 29, 2014 9:29 pm

    It's funny that the U.S. has been heckling Russia over the R-500 over the INF, because the U.S. has missiles that violate the same treaty...
    magnumcromagnon
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    Post  magnumcromagnon Tue Jul 29, 2014 10:36 pm

    Mike E wrote:It's funny that the U.S. has been heckling Russia over the R-500 over the INF, because the U.S. has missiles that violate the same treaty...

    Yeah they're called cruise missiles, which the sanctimonious hypocrites in the U.S. State Dept./Pentagon has thousands of Tomahawks which have the range of 2600km. The R-500 is a cruise missile system, not a ballistic missile system but the jackasses in Congress are incapable of telling the difference!
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    Post  GarryB Wed Jul 30, 2014 11:51 am

    The INF treaty includes all ground launched missiles including ballistic and cruise missiles.

    the irony is that the US can base missiles in Europe while the Russians have no place to base intermediate range missiles that would be strategic if located close to its targets.
    magnumcromagnon
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    Post  magnumcromagnon Wed Jul 30, 2014 2:16 pm

    GarryB wrote:The INF treaty includes all ground launched missiles including ballistic and cruise missiles.

    the irony is that the US can base missiles in Europe while the Russians have no place to base intermediate range missiles that would be strategic if located close to its targets.

    It's a testament to how much of imbecile Mikhail Gorbachev was...

    INF Treaty - coming to the end of its life   - Page 3 Mikhail+Gorbachev+iXuV0crqfmbm
    Mike E
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    Post  Mike E Wed Jul 30, 2014 8:29 pm

    magnumcromagnon wrote:
    Mike E wrote:It's funny that the U.S. has been heckling Russia over the R-500 over the INF, because the U.S. has missiles that violate the same treaty...

    Yeah they're called cruise missiles, which the sanctimonious hypocrites in the U.S. State Dept./Pentagon has thousands of Tomahawks which have the range of 2600km. The R-500 is a cruise missile system, not a ballistic missile system but the jackasses in Congress are incapable of telling the difference!
    Not only that, but the U.S. has a "target ballistic missile" with a range of around 800 km. It is said that it could be used in combat, with real warheads. Russia made a fuss about a couple years ago, but nothing happened. (I totally forgot the name of this missile, so I'll try and find it.)  attack   Very Happy

    I found it, it is called the "Hera" missile with a range of 1,100 km.

    I hate to link Wiki, but it is one of the only sites with info on the missile. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hera_(rocket)
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    Post  AlfaT8 Wed Jul 30, 2014 10:08 pm

    Russia: US claims on nuclear missiles treaty unfounded, we have questions too
    Moscow has slammed Washington’s allegations that Russia breached the Intermediate-Range Nuclear Forces Treaty, calling the claims unsubstantiated. It added Russia also has complaints about the US’s fulfillment of their obligations under the treaty.

    US claims that Russia violated the Intermediate-Range Nuclear Forces Treaty (INF Treaty) are “just as unsubstantiated as everything that has recently been heard by Moscow coming from Washington, including other issues. There is absolutely no evidence provided to support [these allegations],” Russia’s Foreign Ministry said in a statement Wednesday.
    http://rt.com/news/176812-russia-missile-treaty-response/
    I'm hoping this treaty burns, fingers crossed.  Wink 
    magnumcromagnon
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    Post  magnumcromagnon Wed Jul 30, 2014 10:17 pm

    AlfaT8 wrote:
    Russia: US claims on nuclear missiles treaty unfounded, we have questions too
    Moscow has slammed Washington’s allegations that Russia breached the Intermediate-Range Nuclear Forces Treaty, calling the claims unsubstantiated. It added Russia also has complaints about the US’s fulfillment of their obligations under the treaty.

    US claims that Russia violated the Intermediate-Range Nuclear Forces Treaty (INF Treaty) are “just as unsubstantiated as everything that has recently been heard by Moscow coming from Washington, including other issues. There is absolutely no evidence provided to support [these allegations],” Russia’s Foreign Ministry said in a statement Wednesday.
    http://rt.com/news/176812-russia-missile-treaty-response/
    I'm hoping this treaty burns, fingers crossed.  Wink 

    Me too... Twisted Evil 
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    Post  Mike E Wed Jul 30, 2014 10:55 pm

    magnumcromagnon wrote:
    AlfaT8 wrote:
    Russia: US claims on nuclear missiles treaty unfounded, we have questions too
    Moscow has slammed Washington’s allegations that Russia breached the Intermediate-Range Nuclear Forces Treaty, calling the claims unsubstantiated. It added Russia also has complaints about the US’s fulfillment of their obligations under the treaty.

    US claims that Russia violated the Intermediate-Range Nuclear Forces Treaty (INF Treaty) are “just as unsubstantiated as everything that has recently been heard by Moscow coming from Washington, including other issues. There is absolutely no evidence provided to support [these allegations],” Russia’s Foreign Ministry said in a statement Wednesday.
    http://rt.com/news/176812-russia-missile-treaty-response/
    I'm hoping this treaty burns, fingers crossed.  Wink 

    Me too... Twisted Evil 

    I think the U.S. is using this to get out of the treaty themselves, it would be a win-win situation.

    If this treaty does "burn", do you think Russia will reveal the "true range" of the Iskander? I sure hope so!
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    Post  George1 Thu Jul 31, 2014 2:57 pm

    Russia urges NATO chief to take care of making INF Treaty multipartite

    MOSCOW, July 31. /ITAR-TASS/. Russian Foreign Ministry urged NATO Secretary-General Anders Fogh Rasmussen to take care of making the Intermediate-Range Nuclear Forces (INF) Treaty multipartite which Russia called for repeatedly.

    “Moscow has studied NATO general secretary’s statements on the issue of the Treaty on the Elimination of Intermediate-Range and Shorter-Range Missiles with some surprise,” the diplomatic agency said.

    “We hope that the general secretary will not challenge this treaty was concluded in December 1987 between the Soviet Union and the United States, but not between the Soviet Union and NATO or Russia and NATO,” the ministry said.

    “If the essence of concerns voiced in the statement lies in the situation over observing provisions of this document, he should address not to us, but to the North Atlantic Alliance member state which is a signatory nation to the treaty,” the Foreign Ministry said.

    US statements that Russia breaks INF Treaty unfounded - FM
    “If the NATO general secretary would like to make a serious contribution in making the INF Treaty regime stronger, we would recommend to him to take care of making the agreement multipartite which Russia called for repeatedly,” the ministry added.

    On July 30, the NATO chief said “Russia should work constructively to resolve this critical Treaty issue and preserve the viability of the INF Treaty by returning to full compliance in a verifiable manner. Continuing to uphold the Treaty strengthens the security of all, including Russia.”

    Backing US accusations against Russia made at a media briefing of ambassadors from 28 NATO states Rasmussen recalled that the INF Treaty obligations envisage “not to possess, produce, or flight-test a ground-launched cruise missile with a range capability of 500 to 5,500 kilometers.
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    Post  Mike E Thu Jul 31, 2014 8:21 pm

    Knew it! It just makes me wonder how long the range actually is. My guess would be around 700 km, but that may be over-optimistic.  russia
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    Post  Viktor Thu Jul 31, 2014 9:35 pm

    Mike E wrote:Knew it! It just makes me wonder how long the range actually is. My guess would be around 700 km, but that may be over-optimistic.  russia


    I have heard about 900-2500km range speculation but we can´t be sure.
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    Post  Mike E Fri Aug 01, 2014 2:15 am

    That would be nice, to say the very least. I have a quote (that I made up) that fits here; "hope for the best, but expect the worst". Very Happy 
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    Post  GarryB Fri Aug 01, 2014 11:59 am

    The air launched Kh-101 and Kh-102 have flight ranges of 5,500km... it would not be that difficult to design a ground launched missile able to be launched from the Iskander TEL vehicle that is in the 2-3 ton range with a heavy rocket booster to get it airborne that has a flight range of 5,800km or more which would make it not an IRBM and therefore not limited by the INF treaty.
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    Post  George1 Fri Aug 01, 2014 2:15 pm

    Russian Military Reaffirms Strict Adherence to INF Treaty

    MOSCOW, July 31 (RIA Novosti) – Chief of the Russian General Staff, Gen. Valery Gerasimov, said on Thursday that Russia is strictly implementing the Intermediate-Range Nuclear Forces (INF) Treaty with the United States.

    Gerasimov discussed the situation around the Soviet-era agreement in a phone call with US Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, Gen. Martin Dempsey.

    “Gerasimov reaffirmed Russia’s adherence to strict implementation of the INF Treaty,” the Defense Ministry said in a statement.

    Washington has recently accused Moscow of violating its obligations under the treaty, but declined to provide any evidence.

    But now White House spokesman Josh Earnest said the United States has determined that Russia has violated provisions of the INF treaty.

    On Wednesday, the US administration released a report claiming that Russia “is in violation of its obligations under the INF Treaty not to possess, produce, or flight-test a ground-launched cruise missile (GLCM) with a range capability of 500 km to 5,500 km, or to possess or produce launchers of such missiles.”

    Josh Earnest said earlier US President Barack Obama conveyed his findings to Russian President Vladimir Putin in a letter, in addition to US previous attempts to raise the concern “with the Russians on a number of occasions through our standard diplomatic channels."

    The accusation prompted the Russian Foreign Ministry to dismiss the White House statement as “ungrounded,” citing the absence of evidence to support this claim. It also bashed Washington for its plan to deploy MK 41 VLS launching systems in Poland and Romania as part of the “phased adaptive approach” for missile defense.

    The INF is a 1987 agreement between the United States and the Soviet Union to eliminate the use of nuclear and conventional missiles with intermediate range, defined as 500 to 5,000 kilometers (310 to 3,100 miles).

    The pact has often been lauded as an example of successful arms control because it eliminated an entire class of nuclear weapons.
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    Post  Mike E Fri Aug 01, 2014 6:57 pm

    Sounds like a good idea.

    Keep in mind that the Kh-10X also get a "push" off of the aircraft when they are launched (aircraft speed). That shouldn't reduce the Kh's range that much, but maybe it would travel 50 km less than the air-launched model.
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    Post  AlfaT8 Sat Aug 02, 2014 12:38 am

    magnumcromagnon wrote:Are we really going to stake the future of mankind on wikipedia  (to know reliable thermonuclear stockpile data)?
    Fine here are some non-wiki links that say pretty much the same thing:
    http://www.nrdc.org/nuclear/nudb/datab19.asp
    http://www.johnstonsarchive.net/nuclear/nucstock-6.html
    http://docs.nrdc.org/nuclear/files/nuc_11129601a_008.pdf
    http://www.nukewatch.org/media2/postData.php?id=2862
    And i don't believe stockpile number are classified the same way blackops operations are.

    Russia needs to demand France and Britain to join START, let's see some transparency and some legal binding we have to actually take everything in to consideration and not just rely on some talking-points from pro-NATO media.
    I mostly agree, France and Britain should have indeed signed sought a treaty, but that treaty could not be the START treaty, because the biggest reason for the START treaty was to lessen the amount nuclear weapons, you cannot have nations with far less nukes then the treaty allowed (max), this would give these weaker nations permission not to decrease there stockpiles, but to increase them instead, which makes the entire point of the treaty (START) meaningless.  Neutral


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