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    INF Treaty - coming to the end of its life

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    Viktor
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    Re: INF Treaty - coming to the end of its life

    Post  Viktor on Mon Jul 01, 2013 9:00 pm

    US Officials Say Russia Violating Missile Treaty – Report


    WASHINGTON, July 1 (RIA Novosti) – US intelligence officials believe Russia is violating a Soviet-era arms-control treaty with the United States by building a new medium-range missile banned under the agreement, a conservative US website reported.

    US intelligence officials believe the missile, which the Russian Defense Ministry describes as a new intercontinental ballistic missile (ICBM), is actually a medium-range missile that puts Russia in violation of the Intermediate-Range Nuclear Forces Treaty (INF) concluded between the United States and the Soviet Union in 1987, the Washington Free Beacon reported.

    “The intelligence community believes it’s an intermediate-range missile that [the Russians] have classified as an ICBM because it would violate the INF treaty,” the conservative website cited one official as saying.

    The Russian Defense Ministry announced earlier this month that it successfully tested a prototype of a new solid-fuel ICBM that is expected to replace the Topol-M and Yars missiles in the future.

    The missile was fired from a mobile launcher at the Kapustin Yar testing range in the Astrakhan region and hit its designated target at the Sary Shagan testing range in Kazakhstan, the ministry said.

    US intelligence officials said that according to internal assessments, the new missile that Russia tested earlier this month was an INF missile with a range of less than 3,418 miles (5,500 kilometers), the Free Beacon reported.

    Victor Yesin, consultant to Russia’s chief of the general staff, told the website that the missile “is a Topol class ICBM, is not covered by the INF Treaty as its range is over 5,500 kilometers,” the website reported.

    “Russia officially informed the US about that in August 2011,” Yesin, a former commander of Russia’s strategic forces, was quoted by the Free Beacon as saying.
    The website noted an April 12 letter that two US Congressmen wrote to President Barack Obama in which they expressed concerns over “a massive Russian violation and circumvention of an arms control obligation to the United States of great significance to this nation and its NATO allies.”

    The Republican authors, Rep. Howard “Buck” McKeon and Rep. Mike Rogers, did not specify the alleged violation in question but told Obama that Senate Intelligence Committee members had previously expressed their concern about “clear examples of Russia’s noncompliance with its arms control obligations.”
    The Soviet Union and the United States signed the INF Treaty on December 8, 1987. The agreement came into force in June 1988 and does not have a specific duration.

    The INF treaty banned nuclear and conventional ground-launched ballistic and cruise missiles with ranges of 300 to 3,400 miles (500 to 5,500 kilometers). By the treaty's deadline of June 1, 1991, a total of 2,692 such weapons had been destroyed, 846 by the US and 1,846 by the Soviet Union.

    LINK

    and another Treaty Cheating



    AlfaT8
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    Re: INF Treaty - coming to the end of its life

    Post  AlfaT8 on Tue Jul 02, 2013 1:03 am

    "The Washington Free Beacon" is that a joke, Izvestia is a more reliable source.No Rolling Eyes 

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    Re: INF Treaty - coming to the end of its life

    Post  TR1 on Tue Jul 02, 2013 1:26 am

    Kinda seems to me like replacing an aging ICBM arsenal is a much more logical move for Russia than "maybe possibly" testing an IRBM.

    Russia should pull out of MTCR as well.

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    Re: INF Treaty - coming to the end of its life

    Post  GarryB on Wed Jul 03, 2013 3:18 am

    Take the third stage of all of the US ICBMs and they are illegal IRBMs too... the sky is falling the sky is falling.

    Besides I suspect the action Russia should take is hunt through its intel services and find out who might have been a whistle blower and arrest them and put them in jail for revealing this secret that is harmful to Russia... Twisted Evil 


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    Re: INF Treaty - coming to the end of its life

    Post  Viktor on Sat Jul 06, 2013 2:11 am

    This is why US belives new ICBM is actually IRBM



    LINK

    On the other hand Dimi on his blog writes that this truck might be the new carrier of IRBM Frontier



    LINK

    8 x 8 wheels - ICBM (Topol/Topol-M)
    6 x 6 wheels - IRBM (Frontier ??)
    4 x 4 wheels - SRBM (Iskander)

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    Re: INF Treaty - coming to the end of its life

    Post  GarryB on Sat Jul 06, 2013 10:34 am

    8 x 8 wheels - ICBM (Topol/Topol-M)
    6 x 6 wheels - IRBM (Frontier ??)
    4 x 4 wheels - SRBM (Iskander)

    Topol is 16 x 16.
    The photo above shows the Frontier is at least 12 x X probably 12 x 12.

    And Iskander is 8 x 8.

    Note the number x number description of a vehicle says how many wheels the vehicle has (the first number) and how many of those wheels are powered (the second number).

    So a normal car is generally a 4 x 2 with 4 wheels and the two front wheels or two back wheels powered. A 4 wheel drive car like a Jeep is a 4 x 4.


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    Re: INF Treaty - coming to the end of its life

    Post  GarryB on Sat Jul 06, 2013 11:03 am

    Should point out that the biggest factor regarding the US ABM system in Europe will be the Russian Naval introduction of the UKSK launchers on all their new vessels as the number and type of land attack cruise missiles the Russians will field will grow exponentially over the next decade or so.


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    ― Samuel P. Huntington, The Clash of Civilizations and the Remaking of World Order

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    Re: INF Treaty - coming to the end of its life

    Post  Mindstorm on Sat Jul 06, 2013 3:29 pm



    ................number and type of land attack cruise missiles the Russians will field will grow exponentially over the next decade or so.



    No statement was more on the mark.


    http://en.ria.ru/military_news/20130705/182076980/Russia-to-Field-30-Times-More-Cruise-Missiles-by-2020.html

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    Re: INF Treaty - coming to the end of its life

    Post  GarryB on Sun Jul 07, 2013 11:48 am

    And what is critical is that like the ABM system by 2020 the missiles being fitted to those tubes could be rather different from the missiles they could fit today... including hypersonic...


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    Re: INF Treaty - coming to the end of its life

    Post  Vladimir79 on Sun Jul 07, 2013 7:55 pm

    Europe is no longer a threat so that is not needed. The real threat is China where it could see use. Half the population is within range of this weapons class, so we could focus most ICBM on the US and IRBM on China.


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    Re: INF Treaty - coming to the end of its life

    Post  GarryB on Mon Jul 08, 2013 10:49 am

    Europe continues to act against Russia and treat Russia like an enemy... having weapons pointed at them will continue to be useful for Russia till that changes.

    China is no more a threat than it ever was IMHO... a war against Russia would be a US wet dream and they would love to see it happen because it would remove two serious problems from their little problem book in one stroke... the amusing question is which horse would the US back in such a conflict?

    There would be benefits to backing both sides... they traditionally back anyone against Russia including Afghans and Al Quada, but in this case China is probably the biggest economic threat to the US and backing Russia against China would be a good way to cancel all their debt owned by China and move western companies back to the US to get their economy going again.

    Of course a snake might change its skin but it is still a snake and would naturally back anyone that is fighting Russia.


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    ― Samuel P. Huntington, The Clash of Civilizations and the Remaking of World Order

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    Re: INF Treaty - coming to the end of its life

    Post  Viktor on Mon Jul 15, 2013 4:54 pm

    Very interesting text and point of vieew

    Does Russia need medium-range missiles

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    Re: INF Treaty - coming to the end of its life

    Post  Viktor on Thu Nov 07, 2013 10:38 am

    President Putin ends Russia/NATO ABM cooperation

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    Re: INF Treaty - coming to the end of its life

    Post  Viktor on Thu Jan 30, 2014 12:08 pm

    Hahaha the word is out in the opet for lunatic mass media to pick it up  Cool 

    U.S. Says Russia Tested Missile, Despite Treaty

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    Re: INF Treaty - coming to the end of its life

    Post  gaurav on Thu Jan 30, 2014 5:12 pm

    Man this is as going to be crazy as ever.




    The United States informed its NATO allies this month that Russia had tested
    a new ground-launched cruise missile, raising concerns about Moscow’s compliance with a landmark arms control accord.

    I cant believe this crap. They are literally saying RS-24 and RS-26(Avanguard) are cruise missiles.

    These chinese specialists now running the pentagon have truly gone mad. They dont even know the difference between
    ICBM and cruise missile.

    These china focused Pentagon might be getting a little tizzy.. Twisted Evil

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    Re: INF Treaty - coming to the end of its life

    Post  AlfaT8 on Sun Feb 02, 2014 5:54 pm

    Decided to post this here:
    Russia threatens to quit START as US deploys Aegis destroyer to Spain
    Link
    Why the START Treaty and not the INF Treaty, i don't get it??  Suspect 

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    Re: INF Treaty - coming to the end of its life

    Post  macedonian on Sun Feb 02, 2014 6:17 pm

    I once wrote that "if the Russians go about trusting the Americans on their promises or signed treaties, they'll end up being played like a string quartet in allegro vivace", and I pretty much still feel the same today.
    I always hope though, that minds wiser than mine are the ones taking the decisions in the Kremlin (even if I've been disappointed on some occasions). But I remain a dreamer, so I'm not giving up hope*... russia

    *(well...not just yet)

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    Re: INF Treaty - coming to the end of its life

    Post  zg18 on Mon Feb 03, 2014 10:36 am

    AlfaT8 wrote:Why the START Treaty and not the INF Treaty, i don't get it??  Suspect 

    Because START limits numbers of deployed launchers and warheads.

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    Re: INF Treaty - coming to the end of its life

    Post  Viktor on Sun Feb 09, 2014 11:52 pm

    Nice read ...  thumbsup 

    What lies behind US allegations of Russian ICBM missile tests?

    specially this part (by Viktor Litovkin)

    The RS-26 Rubezh is an intercontinental ballistic missile (ICBM), meaning that it follows a ballistic trajectory to reach the target. Cruise missiles, on the other hand, fly horizontally just above the Earth's surface, sticking closely to the surface topography. ICBMs have a range of up to 11,500 km, whereas cruise missiles, as a rule, have a much more limited range of up to 3,500 km.
    The cause of the latest ruckus is that, in a certain sense, the warhead used with the Rubezh ICBM behaves as a cruise missile in its own right. After being launched from a mobile ground-based platform, the RS-26 climbs straight upwards.
    Once it has reached a certain altitude, it starts to follow a curved ballistic trajectory towards the target. Then during the descending section of that trajectory, with only a few hundred miles left to the target, the warhead suddenly takes a dive, loses altitude, and continues the approach as a cruise missile, i.e. flying horizontally along the Earth's surface. Detecting such a warhead by radars or other traditional means is impossible; neither can the warhead be intercepted.


    According to Gen. Zarudnitsky, once the Rubezh passes the trial program it will enter service with the Strategic Missile Troops (the Russian land-based nuclear forces). The first missile regiment will begin receiving these missiles later in 2014.


    RS-26 seems to be quite a missile  sniper 

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    Re: INF Treaty - coming to the end of its life

    Post  magnumcromagnon on Mon Feb 10, 2014 6:52 pm

    Viktor wrote:Nice read ...  thumbsup 

    What lies behind US allegations of Russian ICBM missile tests?

    specially this part (by Viktor Litovkin)

    The RS-26 Rubezh is an intercontinental ballistic missile (ICBM), meaning that it follows a ballistic trajectory to reach the target. Cruise missiles, on the other hand, fly horizontally just above the Earth's surface, sticking closely to the surface topography. ICBMs have a range of up to 11,500 km, whereas cruise missiles, as a rule, have a much more limited range of up to 3,500 km.
    The cause of the latest ruckus is that, in a certain sense, the warhead used with the Rubezh ICBM behaves as a cruise missile in its own right. After being launched from a mobile ground-based platform, the RS-26 climbs straight upwards.
    Once it has reached a certain altitude, it starts to follow a curved ballistic trajectory towards the target. Then during the descending section of that trajectory, with only a few hundred miles left to the target, the warhead suddenly takes a dive, loses altitude, and continues the approach as a cruise missile, i.e. flying horizontally along the Earth's surface. Detecting such a warhead by radars or other traditional means is impossible; neither can the warhead be intercepted.


    According to Gen. Zarudnitsky, once the Rubezh passes the trial program it will enter service with the Strategic Missile Troops (the Russian land-based nuclear forces). The first missile regiment will begin receiving these missiles later in 2014.


    RS-26 seems to be quite a missile  sniper 

    I wonder if it's possible to integrate a theater short range ballistic missile like Iskander-M in to an ICBM, now that would be something wouldn't it?

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    Re: INF Treaty - coming to the end of its life

    Post  GarryB on Tue Feb 11, 2014 9:00 am

    AlfaT8 wrote:Decided to post this here:
    Russia threatens to quit START as US deploys Aegis destroyer to Spain
    Link
    Why the START Treaty and not the INF Treaty, i don't get it??  Suspect 

    START limits the number of ICBMs and launch platforms and SLBMs and SSBNs and cruise missiles and long range bombers Russia can deploy.

    The US deployment of AEGIS to Spain will impact the effect of Russian deterrence so to get that MAD back they will need to increase the number of strategic missiles they have to overwhelm the system.

    Withdrawing from INF would not have the same effect as IRBMs wouldn't reach Spain from most of Russian territory...


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    Re: INF Treaty - coming to the end of its life

    Post  Viktor on Wed Mar 05, 2014 3:23 pm

    Now its all clear for everyone to understand  thumbsup 

    Russia could use right out of the START Treaty

    Russia may be forced to withdraw from the Treaty on Strategic Offensive Arms (START), if the U.S. continues to develop its missile defense system, said the director of the Department of the Russian Foreign Ministry's security and disarmament Mikhail Ulyanov

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    Re: INF Treaty - coming to the end of its life

    Post  AlfaT8 on Tue Jul 29, 2014 8:25 pm

    White House accuses Russia of violating Intermediate-Range Nuclear Forces Treaty
    United States President Barack Obama has formally accused his Russian counterpart of violating a 1987 nuclear weapons treaty, the White House said on Tuesday.

    Pres. Obama wrote Russia’s Vladimir Putin, White House press secretary John Earnest said during a routine briefing Tuesday afternoon, informing him that the US has determined that Russia has violated the Intermediate-Range Nuclear Forces Treaty, a pact signed by Presidents Ronald Reagan and Mikhail Gorbachev nearly 30 years ago.
    http://rt.com/usa/176492-obama-accuses-russia-nuclear-treaty/

    Washington Says Moscow Violated INF Treaty
    MOSCOW, July 29 (RIA Novosti) — The United States has claimed Russia violated the Intermediate-Range Nuclear Forces Treaty (INF) by testing a prohibited ground-launched cruise missile, The New York Times reported citing senior US officials.

    According to the newspaper, US President Barack Obama conveyed his findings to Russian President Vladimir Putin in a letter Monday.
    http://en.ria.ru/politics/20140729/191425404/Washington-Says-Moscow-Violated-INF-Treaty.html

    Yea, i know this isn't anything to be surprised about, but since the U.S has now "formally" accused Russia of violating the treaty, Russia should take this opportunity to "formally" leaves said worthless one sided treaty!!  Twisted Evil

    Edit:
    Video title is misleading.


    Last edited by AlfaT8 on Tue Jul 29, 2014 10:00 pm; edited 1 time in total

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    Re: INF Treaty - coming to the end of its life

    Post  Mike E on Tue Jul 29, 2014 9:29 pm

    It's funny that the U.S. has been heckling Russia over the R-500 over the INF, because the U.S. has missiles that violate the same treaty...

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    Re: INF Treaty - coming to the end of its life

    Post  magnumcromagnon on Tue Jul 29, 2014 10:36 pm

    Mike E wrote:It's funny that the U.S. has been heckling Russia over the R-500 over the INF, because the U.S. has missiles that violate the same treaty...

    Yeah they're called cruise missiles, which the sanctimonious hypocrites in the U.S. State Dept./Pentagon has thousands of Tomahawks which have the range of 2600km. The R-500 is a cruise missile system, not a ballistic missile system but the jackasses in Congress are incapable of telling the difference!

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