Russia Defence Forum

Would you like to react to this message? Create an account in a few clicks or log in to continue.

Military Forum for Russian and Global Defence Issues


+47
ult
ATLASCUB
nomadski
Firebird
Nibiru
Isos
Karl Haushofer
Hole
PapaDragon
LMFS
dino00
rrob
T-47
Singular_Transform
miketheterrible
Arrow
hoom
JohninMK
eehnie
Rmf
nastle77
sepheronx
GunshipDemocracy
kvs
Big_Gazza
max steel
flamming_python
Stealthflanker
Morpheus Eberhardt
Vann7
Werewolf
George1
Mike E
zg18
GarryB
Mindstorm
TR1
collegeboy16
navyfield
magnumcromagnon
AlfaT8
Admin
gaurav
SOC
Austin
Cyberspec
Viktor
51 posters

    INF Treaty - coming to the end of its life

    GunshipDemocracy
    GunshipDemocracy


    Posts : 5985
    Points : 6005
    Join date : 2015-05-17
    Location : fishin on Stalin´s Strait between Mexico and Canada

    INF Treaty - coming to the end of its life   - Page 6 Empty Re: INF Treaty - coming to the end of its life

    Post  GunshipDemocracy Fri Jun 05, 2015 10:42 am

    max steel wrote:Are there any missiles except ICBM's with which Russia can hit US mainland without getting intercepted ?

    There was Pioneer in times of USSR AFAIK was to be stationed massively on Chukotka region.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SS-20_Saber

    INF Treaty - coming to the end of its life   - Page 6 File:RSD-10_2009_G1

    But I d presume now due to modular design Rubezh/Yars derivative with less stages can be employed. And as SRBM Iskander on steroids with over 1000km range



    Skorost my fav way to cool down EU Rusophobes.
    http://militaryrussia.ru/blog/index-515.html
    INF Treaty - coming to the end of its life   - Page 6 EeAAW
    GunshipDemocracy
    GunshipDemocracy


    Posts : 5985
    Points : 6005
    Join date : 2015-05-17
    Location : fishin on Stalin´s Strait between Mexico and Canada

    INF Treaty - coming to the end of its life   - Page 6 Empty Re: INF Treaty - coming to the end of its life

    Post  GunshipDemocracy Fri Jun 05, 2015 10:48 am

    George1 wrote:US may deploy land-based missiles in Europe

    The move would be a response to Russia's alleged violation of a Cold War-era intermediate nuclear force (INF) Soviet-US treaty


    This aggresive bankrupt on clay legs already has hundreds of Tomahawks around Russia. They need war and the whole EU/Turkey/Japan is an acceptable loss but not mainland US. Where golden billions´ HQ is.

    Thus with no INF Russia wins actually. Mass of nuked IRBMs/SRBMSs can ¨cover¨ EU till Spain and Turkey. IRBM as Pioneer can focus on Alaska and Canada and ICMB can exclusively focus on friend and family of US around the globe .
    GunshipDemocracy
    GunshipDemocracy


    Posts : 5985
    Points : 6005
    Join date : 2015-05-17
    Location : fishin on Stalin´s Strait between Mexico and Canada

    INF Treaty - coming to the end of its life   - Page 6 Empty Re: INF Treaty - coming to the end of its life

    Post  GunshipDemocracy Fri Jun 05, 2015 10:50 am

    max steel wrote:"
    George1 wrote:


    Ryabkov added the INF Treaty was not discussed during the recent visit to Moscow by US Assistant Secretary of State Victoria Nuland. "She does not deal with the issue, that’s not her competence," he said  


    Ofcourse her competence is in bringing different color revolutions . Just tell her your favorite colour .

    Currently red and black as in IIIrd Reich. But after $ collapse will be sh!tty Smile
    George1
    George1


    Posts : 18305
    Points : 18802
    Join date : 2011-12-22
    Location : Greece

    INF Treaty - coming to the end of its life   - Page 6 Empty Re: INF Treaty - coming to the end of its life

    Post  George1 Fri Jun 05, 2015 12:10 pm

    Russia may withdraw from the INF Treaty with the deployment in Europe of US missiles
    sepheronx
    sepheronx


    Posts : 8527
    Points : 8789
    Join date : 2009-08-05
    Age : 34
    Location : Canada

    INF Treaty - coming to the end of its life   - Page 6 Empty Re: INF Treaty - coming to the end of its life

    Post  sepheronx Fri Jun 05, 2015 8:56 pm

    US Considers Military Response to Russia's Alleged INF Violation

    The Americans are trying to make excuses for placing missile systems in Europe. In other words, INF is dead and Russia will end up probably building en mass cruise missiles with ranges enough to strike ABM systems and other missile systems in Europe.
    GunshipDemocracy
    GunshipDemocracy


    Posts : 5985
    Points : 6005
    Join date : 2015-05-17
    Location : fishin on Stalin´s Strait between Mexico and Canada

    INF Treaty - coming to the end of its life   - Page 6 Empty Re: INF Treaty - coming to the end of its life

    Post  GunshipDemocracy Wed Jun 10, 2015 12:26 pm

    The Ministry of defense is developing a new operational-tactical complex so 1000km class SRBM?

    http://ria.ru/defense_safety/20150610/1069233228.html

    The principles laid out in the operational-tactical complex "Oka", determined the path of development of individual weapons systems, told reporters on Wednesday, Deputy defense Minister Yuri Borisov.

    MOSCOW, 10 Jun — RIA Novosti. The reconstruction of operational-tactical complex "Oka" is not planned, on his shift, told reporters on Wednesday, Deputy defense Minister Yuri Borisov.

    "Why recreate the old one? We're already doing new. The principles laid down in the "Oka", determined the path of development of individual weapons systems," said Borisov during the opening ceremony in Moscow the memorial in honor of the legendary designer managed missile Sergey Invincible.

    "Technology can improve the performance, range and accuracy, combat effectiveness," added Borisov.


    I wonder why they talked about technical OKA is Iskander exists? maybe that´s why
    In the early 2000s, experts BGTU "Voenmech" suggested the use of missiles, "Oka" for use as a life-saving support. The payload of the rocket can reach 230 kg at a distance of 840 km with an average flight time of 410 seconds.

    http://bastion-karpenko.narod.ru/Oka.html

    George1
    George1


    Posts : 18305
    Points : 18802
    Join date : 2011-12-22
    Location : Greece

    INF Treaty - coming to the end of its life   - Page 6 Empty Re: INF Treaty - coming to the end of its life

    Post  George1 Thu Jun 11, 2015 12:16 pm

    Russia warns US against jeopardizing viability of INF treaty — Foreign Ministry

    The Foreign Ministry said of great concern in the INF context were "the United States’ plans for deploying in Romania and Poland vertical launching systems"

    MOSCOW, June 11. /TASS/. The United States has addressed Russia with a fresh portion of groundless charges it is ostensibly in breach of the Intermediate-Range Nuclear Force (INF) treaty, the Russian Foreign Ministry said on Thursday about the latest US Department of State report regarding the observance of arms control, non-proliferation and disarmament commitments.

    The Foreign Ministry said of great concern in the INF context were "the United States’ plans for deploying in Romania and Poland vertical launching systems capable, according to our estimates, of firing Standard-3 interceptor missiles and medium-range cruise missiles Tomahawk."

    "Their deployment will be a direct violation of the INF treaty," the Foreign Ministry said.

    "Also, certain questions arise why in testing its missile defence weapons the United States uses targets having parameters similar to those of intermediate and shorter range missiles. There are reasons to believe that in this way the United States may be testing a number of aspects of production and combat use of prohibited ballistic missiles," the Foreign Ministry said.

    It drew attention to the fact that the attack drones the United States has manufactured for years fall under the INF Treaty’s definition of ground-based cruise missiles, in particular, in view of the specified understanding of the term ‘delivery vehicle’ formalized in the notes the Soviet and US governments exchanged on May 132, 1988.

    "Quite noteworthy are statements by Pentagon officials to the effect the United States has been considering options of a military response to Russian ‘violations’, including the possibility of deploying near our borders the intermediate and shorter range missiles outlawed under the INF treaty," the Foreign Ministry said. "It is clear that such action would be tantamount to complete destruction by the United States of the INF treaty’s regimen with all the ensuing consequences.".
    max steel
    max steel


    Posts : 2930
    Points : 2955
    Join date : 2015-02-12
    Location : South Pole

    INF Treaty - coming to the end of its life   - Page 6 Empty Re: INF Treaty - coming to the end of its life

    Post  max steel Sun Jun 21, 2015 7:40 pm

    As I understand, the U.S. goal is just the opposite - keep Russia from leaving the treaty. I don't think there should be any doubt that the violation is real (although it seems to be very minor), but now that there is a claim of noncompliance, it's very difficult for Russia to withdraw. Unless it can demonstrate that it is indeed in good standing. But by not releasing any details about the issue, the U.S. makes Russia's defense quite complicated.


    Aegis Ashore is most likely a violation of the treaty , since it is an exact copy of the Mk 41 VLS, which has been used previously to launch Tomahawk ASCM (a version of Gryphon GLCM) . Also, Russia is arguing that deployment of Mk-41 launchers as part of the missile defense sites in Poland and Romania would violate the treaty. This case is not quite clear cut, but Russia seems to have a point. Mad

    The Mk-41 Vertical Launch System is capable of launching a range of missiles, including Tomahawk SLCM. There is nothing wrong with that - the INF Treaty does not limit SLCMs and, indeed, allows testing SLCMs from a ground-based launcher as long as this launcher is fixed and located at a designated test site. Unless the United States tested a GLCM from an Mk-41, these launchers are not considered GLCM launchers for the purposes of the INF treaty and, strictly speaking, the treaty does not limit them in any way. But deploying these launchers on land does seem to go against the spirit of the treaty - deployment of a bunch of SLCM launchers on land would be a way to deploy a bunch of GLCMs. And yes, fixed launchers are GLCM launchers in the INF Treaty (Article II.4):

    The term "GLCM launcher" means a fixed launcher or a mobile land-based transporter-erector-launcher mechanism for launching a GLCM.
    avatar
    Austin


    Posts : 7617
    Points : 8014
    Join date : 2010-05-08
    Location : India

    INF Treaty - coming to the end of its life   - Page 6 Empty INF Treaty

    Post  Austin Sat Jul 18, 2015 10:23 am

    Pavel write up on INF verification issue between Russia and US , Interestingly he fills the article with US POV and how reveling any information will revel US Sources etc but he does not put Russia concern on using Launchers as part of ABM deployment in Europe ......but neverthless interesting article

    Sorting fact from fiction on Russian missile claims
    avatar
    nastle77


    Posts : 229
    Points : 307
    Join date : 2015-07-25

    INF Treaty - coming to the end of its life   - Page 6 Empty SS-20 Saber in 1990

    Post  nastle77 Sat Aug 01, 2015 10:10 pm

    The intermediate range missile was to be destroyed according to the 1987 treaty but the Military balance 1990 still lists 174 of these missiles operational then

    SO was this missile just withdrawn gradually from 1987 onward or did all of them were disarmed overnight as soon as the treaty was signed ?
    George1
    George1


    Posts : 18305
    Points : 18802
    Join date : 2011-12-22
    Location : Greece

    INF Treaty - coming to the end of its life   - Page 6 Empty Re: INF Treaty - coming to the end of its life

    Post  George1 Sat Aug 01, 2015 11:53 pm

    nastle77 wrote:The intermediate range missile was to be destroyed according to the 1987 treaty but the Military balance 1990 still lists 174 of these missiles operational then

    SO was this missile just withdrawn gradually from 1987 onward or did all of them were disarmed overnight as soon as the treaty was signed ?

    they were withdrawn gradually May 1991 (until treaty's deadline of 1 June 1991)
    avatar
    nastle77


    Posts : 229
    Points : 307
    Join date : 2015-07-25

    INF Treaty - coming to the end of its life   - Page 6 Empty Re: INF Treaty - coming to the end of its life

    Post  nastle77 Mon Aug 03, 2015 8:30 pm

    George1 wrote:
    nastle77 wrote:The intermediate range missile was to be destroyed according to the 1987 treaty but the Military balance 1990 still lists 174 of these missiles operational then

    SO was this missile just withdrawn gradually from 1987 onward or did all of them were disarmed overnight as soon as the treaty was signed ?

    they were withdrawn gradually May 1991 (until treaty's deadline of 1 June 1991)
    ok so the Military balance 1990 still lists 174 of these missiles operational is probably quite accurate ?
    avatar
    Austin


    Posts : 7617
    Points : 8014
    Join date : 2010-05-08
    Location : India

    INF Treaty - coming to the end of its life   - Page 6 Empty Re: INF Treaty - coming to the end of its life

    Post  Austin Thu Aug 13, 2015 8:38 am

    US claims Russia tests missile threatening Europe, Northeast Asia

    WASHINGTON, August 13. /TASS/. Russia has "tested" a state-of-the-art ground-launched cruise missile at ranges capable of threatening most of European continent and US allies in Northeast Asia, namely Japan and South Korea, a US State Department official claimed on Wednesday.

    "We continue to insist that Russia meet its legal obligations and return to compliance with this Treaty," the official said.


    "We are consulting with Allies and reviewing a range of appropriate options — diplomatic, economic, and military — to respond to Russia's continuing violation of its treaty obligations," he said, stressing that there have been no decisions regarding military responses to "the Russian violation."

    Last July, the United States announced that Russia was in violation of the INF Treaty, which bans manufacturing and tests of missiles with ranges of between 500-5,500 km (300-3,400 miles).

    "We have reminded Russia of this and have pressed Russia repeatedly to engage constructively and return to compliance. We do not want a repeat of the escalatory cycle of action and reaction that marked much of the Cold War," the official said.

    Russia’s Foreign Ministry said the US claims that Moscow is violating provisions of the INF treaty are totally ungrounded and Washington pursues the goal of discrediting Russia.

    The ministry has in its turn voiced concerns about the US plans for deploying in Romania and Poland vertical launching systems that are capable of firing Standard-3 interceptor missiles and medium-range cruise missiles Tomahawk.

    "Their deployment will be a direct violation of the INF treaty," the Foreign Ministry said.

    max steel
    max steel


    Posts : 2930
    Points : 2955
    Join date : 2015-02-12
    Location : South Pole

    INF Treaty - coming to the end of its life   - Page 6 Empty Re: INF Treaty - coming to the end of its life

    Post  max steel Fri Oct 09, 2015 8:35 pm

    Syria strikes, Kalibr-NK, and the INF treaty
    GarryB
    GarryB


    Posts : 38926
    Points : 39422
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    INF Treaty - coming to the end of its life   - Page 6 Empty Re: INF Treaty - coming to the end of its life

    Post  GarryB Sat Oct 10, 2015 10:13 am

    Interesting...

    Another possibility is that it might be based on the Kh-101/102 missile family and with minor modification and a decent solid rocket booster it could have a range of more than 5,500km.

    Some official comments mention 10,000km range cruise missiles... a ground launched missile with a range of 10,000km with a high high high flight profile with a low subsonic initial flight speed that gathers speed in flight as it gets lighter to high subsonic would not be covered by the INF treaty which only applies to intermediate range weapons (ie 500km to 5,500km).

    They could have as many ground launchers as they want...

    Besides even a 2,500km range weapon might only reach 400km with reduced fuel load... what can't you test in such a state without treaty violation?
    max steel
    max steel


    Posts : 2930
    Points : 2955
    Join date : 2015-02-12
    Location : South Pole

    INF Treaty - coming to the end of its life   - Page 6 Empty Re: INF Treaty - coming to the end of its life

    Post  max steel Sat Oct 10, 2015 3:35 pm

    I don't know why US was complaining ? It came to my attention that the missile they were talking about inf violation was sea based Kalibr-NK cruise missile which the Pentagon apparently has a name for it - SSC-X-8.


    This is a clear demonstration of a cruise missile with a range of more than 500 km.Had Kalibr-NK been a ground-launched cruise missile, it would be prohibited by the INF Treaty. However, the missile demonstrated in action today is a SLCM that the treaty does not limit in any way. Having said that, if this missile was ever test-launched from a mobile land-based launcher, it would be considered GLCM for the purposes of the INF Treaty and this test would be a treaty violation.
    magnumcromagnon
    magnumcromagnon


    Posts : 8138
    Points : 8273
    Join date : 2013-12-05
    Location : Pindos ave., Pindosville, Pindosylvania, Pindostan

    INF Treaty - coming to the end of its life   - Page 6 Empty Re: INF Treaty - coming to the end of its life

    Post  magnumcromagnon Wed Oct 14, 2015 10:57 pm

    The idea of ​​abolishing the INF Treaty should be thoroughly discussed
    Rmf
    Rmf


    Posts : 462
    Points : 441
    Join date : 2013-05-30

    INF Treaty - coming to the end of its life   - Page 6 Empty Re: INF Treaty - coming to the end of its life

    Post  Rmf Sun Oct 18, 2015 8:20 pm

    with this new launches from caspian of kalibr its clear now russia can launch from every major rivers in continental east europe , so its like a surface launcher.
    GarryB
    GarryB


    Posts : 38926
    Points : 39422
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    INF Treaty - coming to the end of its life   - Page 6 Empty Re: INF Treaty - coming to the end of its life

    Post  GarryB Mon Oct 19, 2015 8:41 am

    It is the best of both worlds... being ship based it can sail around the globe, but a land based version could be flown anywhere rather faster...
    George1
    George1


    Posts : 18305
    Points : 18802
    Join date : 2011-12-22
    Location : Greece

    INF Treaty - coming to the end of its life   - Page 6 Empty Re: INF Treaty - coming to the end of its life

    Post  George1 Thu Dec 03, 2015 8:04 am

    Russia Accuses US of Violating Nuclear Arms Treaty

    The Russian Foreign Ministry said that Russia believes that the United States violated their bilateral deal on intermediate-range nuclear forces when it installed Mk 41 vertical launching systems in Eastern Europe.

    MOSCOW (Sputnik) — Russia believes that the United States violated their bilateral deal on intermediate-range nuclear forces when it installed Mk 41 vertical launching systems in Eastern Europe, the Russian Foreign Ministry said Wednesday.

    The 1987 INF Treaty banned nuclear and conventional ground-based cruise and ballistic missiles with a range of 300 to 3,400 miles.

    "We have grounds to regard land-based Mk 41s as cruise missile launching systems and their deployment on the ground as a direct INF violation by the US side," the Foreign Ministry said in a statement.

    When installed on warships, Mk 41s can be used for launching both SM-3 interceptor missiles and medium to range Tomahawk cruise missiles. Several Mk 41s are currently stationed in Romania and will be later redeployed to Poland.

    This came in response to continued US accusations that Moscow is not fulfilling its INF Treaty obligations. Washington alleges that Moscow tested a ground-launched cruise missile in violation of the INF Treaty.

    The Russian Foreign Ministry reiterated on Wednesday that Moscow considered such accusations to be baseless and accused Washington of using these claims to justify its "response" measures.

    US Undersecretary of Defense for Policy Brian McKeon said earlier today that the Pentagon was developing a "comprehensive response" to Russia's alleged military actions irrespective of Moscow’s answer.

    "The aim of this deceptive move is obvious – it is to cast a shadow on our arms controls and to deflect attention from US actions," the Russian statement read.

    It accused the United States of piling military infrastructure at the Russian border and refusing to discuss the problem. "The situation with the treaty is shamelessly used to escalate the atmosphere of chronic military tension across the Euro-Atlantic space," the Ministry said.

    Speaking at the House Armed Services Committee, Brian McKeon said that the United States would increase its rotational forces and military exercises in NATO's eastern flank, and preposition military hardware in Europe.

    Read more: http://sputniknews.com/military/20151202/1031149891/rusia-accuses-us-inf-violation.html#ixzz3tF7WueeI
    max steel
    max steel


    Posts : 2930
    Points : 2955
    Join date : 2015-02-12
    Location : South Pole

    INF Treaty - coming to the end of its life   - Page 6 Empty Re: INF Treaty - coming to the end of its life

    Post  max steel Thu Dec 03, 2015 9:05 am




    Look like the US information is based on some "reliable sources" that they are not willing to disclose but would like Russia to fix this problem to be INF compliant. While the Russian deny they have a mobile system that breaches INF system.No one will buy argument based on Informed Sources which US is not willing to disclose , That kind of logic is same like Russian claiming VLS launcher for ABM can be used for launching Tomahawk or some other missile.
    max steel
    max steel


    Posts : 2930
    Points : 2955
    Join date : 2015-02-12
    Location : South Pole

    INF Treaty - coming to the end of its life   - Page 6 Empty Re: INF Treaty - coming to the end of its life

    Post  max steel Tue Feb 09, 2016 5:35 pm

    US National Intelligence Claims Russia Violated INF Treaty

    According to the US National Intelligence director, Russia has violated the 1987 Intermediate-Range Nuclear Forces Treaty by allegedly creating a ground-launched cruise missile.

    NEW YORK (Sputnik) — Russia has allegedly developed a ground-launched cruise missile in violation of the 1987 Intermediate-Range Nuclear Forces Treaty (INF), US National Intelligence Director James Clapper said in a testimony on Tuesday.

    “Russia has developed a ground-launched cruise missile that the United States has declared is in violation of the Intermediate-Range Nuclear Forces (INF) Treaty,” Clapper said. “Russia has denied it is violating the INF Treaty.”



    max steel
    max steel


    Posts : 2930
    Points : 2955
    Join date : 2015-02-12
    Location : South Pole

    INF Treaty - coming to the end of its life   - Page 6 Empty Re: INF Treaty - coming to the end of its life

    Post  max steel Fri Feb 26, 2016 7:57 am

    Russia Developes INF Treaty-Breaking Cruise Missile - US Intelligence Chief

    Russia has developed a new ground-launched cruise missile that breaks the 1987 Intermediate Nuclear Forces (INF) Treaty, US Director of National Intelligence James Clapper told the House of Representatives Permanent Select Intelligence Committee on Thursday.

    Clapper reiterated a claim he previously made in earlier testimony to Congress on February 9.In that earlier testimony, Clapper acknowledged that Russia had denied it was violating the INF Treaty.


    AlfaT8
    AlfaT8


    Posts : 2463
    Points : 2454
    Join date : 2013-02-02

    INF Treaty - coming to the end of its life   - Page 6 Empty Re: INF Treaty - coming to the end of its life

    Post  AlfaT8 Fri Feb 26, 2016 2:24 pm

    max steel wrote:Russia Developes INF Treaty-Breaking Cruise Missile - US Intelligence Chief

    Russia has developed a new ground-launched cruise missile that breaks the 1987 Intermediate Nuclear Forces (INF) Treaty, US Director of National Intelligence James Clapper told the House of Representatives Permanent Select Intelligence Committee on Thursday.

    Clapper reiterated a claim he previously made in earlier testimony to Congress on February 9.In that earlier testimony, Clapper acknowledged that Russia had denied it was violating the INF Treaty.

    Pray tell, what is this new missile he's referring to, Zircon is the only new one that i am aware of.
    GarryB
    GarryB


    Posts : 38926
    Points : 39422
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    INF Treaty - coming to the end of its life   - Page 6 Empty Re: INF Treaty - coming to the end of its life

    Post  GarryB Sat Feb 27, 2016 4:37 am

    Probably thinking they are making a land based Kalibr with a range of 1,500 - 3,000km Plus for the land based launcher

    Sponsored content


    INF Treaty - coming to the end of its life   - Page 6 Empty Re: INF Treaty - coming to the end of its life

    Post  Sponsored content


      Current date/time is Fri Apr 19, 2024 3:23 pm