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    INF Treaty - coming to the end of its life

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    Mike E
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    Re: INF Treaty - coming to the end of its life

    Post  Mike E on Sat Feb 28, 2015 7:25 am

    magnumcromagnon wrote:
    Mike E wrote:
    GarryB wrote:If the US is so sure Russia is violating the INF treaty then Russia should withdraw and then actually violate it...hopefully the US will see the difference...
    Exactly... If the West sees Russia as "guilty", why not just drop the whole thing in the first place?

    The reality is that the U.S. benefits more with Russia in the INF treaty, and surrounded by several theater range ballistic missile wielding countries, and Britain and France not bound by the treaty, than otherwise. It's as one-sided of a treaty as you can get!
    Agreed. Everyday Russia has lesser a reason to maintain this (clearly) one-sided treaty. I hope it will be solved soon, but only time will tell...

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    Re: INF Treaty - coming to the end of its life

    Post  GarryB on Sun Mar 01, 2015 2:13 am

    I am sure the US would love to return ground launched cruise missiles to Europe... and now they can locate them all over Europe...

    Keep the treaty just STFU with the whining. If you have proof show it... otherwise... STFU.


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    Re: INF Treaty - coming to the end of its life

    Post  Mike E on Sun Mar 01, 2015 2:18 am

    GarryB wrote:I am sure the US would love to return ground launched cruise missiles to Europe... and now they can locate them all over Europe...

    Keep the treaty just STFU with the whining. If you have proof show it... otherwise... STFU.
    So would Russia to Havana, lol...  lol1

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    Re: INF Treaty - coming to the end of its life

    Post  flamming_python on Sun Mar 01, 2015 2:34 am

    GarryB wrote:I am sure the US would love to return ground launched cruise missiles to Europe... and now they can locate them all over Europe...

    Keep the treaty just STFU with the whining. If you have proof show it... otherwise... STFU.

    Sry Garry voted you down by mistake Neutral

    magnumcromagnon
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    Re: INF Treaty - coming to the end of its life

    Post  magnumcromagnon on Sun Mar 01, 2015 3:02 am

    GarryB wrote:I am sure the US would love to return ground launched cruise missiles to Europe... and now they can locate them all over Europe...

    Keep the treaty just STFU with the whining. If you have proof show it... otherwise... STFU.

    Ground launched cruise missiles in Venezuela, Nicaragua, Cuba, Ecuador, all pro-Russian countries that have criticized U.S. military overstretch. Wink

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    Re: INF Treaty - coming to the end of its life

    Post  George1 on Wed Mar 11, 2015 5:02 pm

    Tensions over intermediate nuclear force treaty high — Russian foreign ministry

    MOSCOW, 11 March. /TASS/. The intermediate nuclear force (INF) Soviet-US treaty of 1987 that outlawed the intermediate and shorter range missiles is not falling apart yet, but tensions over it are soaring high, the director of the Russian Foreign Ministry’s non-proliferation and arms control department, Mikhail Ulyanov, told a news conference on Wednesday.

    "Some actions by our US colleagues cause great surprise. At a meeting with a US delegation in Moscow on the issue US delegates did explain what particularly they do not like - in their scheme of things we are expected to say voluntarily what we have violated and to confess violations," Ulyanov said. "This kind of approach does not look serious to us."

    "At the same time we have at least three questions about US compliance with the treaty. I cannot say that the replies the Americans offered satisfied us," the diplomat said.

    "The discussion with the United States on this subject will go on. Its outcome is anyone’s guess but at this point it would be wrong to say that the treaty is falling apart," Ulyanov concluded.

    US actions jeopardize nuclear disarmament process


    Ulyanov said that US actions undermine the global strategic stability and make further steps towards nuclear disarmament problematic.

    He reminded that the New Strategic Arms Reduction Treaty signed in 2010 envisaged a reduction in the nuclear potentials of Russia and the United States, adding that "there was no doubt that both countries would accomplish the task".

    Ulyanov added that Washington’s current actions, specifically, the deployment of anti-ballistic missile system in Europe and development of high-precision strategic non-nuclear weapons brought into question further steps towards nuclear disarmament.

    "In such circumstances, the continuation of the nuclear disarmament process seems problematic", he said.

    "This is a question that should be posed to the United States", Ulyanov said, adding that Russia’s focus was on creating the necessary conditions for disarmament.

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    Re: INF Treaty - coming to the end of its life

    Post  George1 on Tue Mar 24, 2015 10:03 am

    US says ready to continue dialogue with Russia on INF treaty

    Washington has started suspecting that Moscow is violating the Intermediate-Range Nuclear Forces treaty, a US official told a TASS correspondent at the Carnegie International Nuclear Policy

    WASHINGTON, March 24. /TASS/. Under-Secretary for Arms Control and International Security at the US Department of State Rose Gottemoeller has said Washington is ready to continue the dialogue with Moscow on the observance of the Intermediate-Range Nuclear Forces Treaty (INF).

    Gottemoeller told a TASS correspondent at the Carnegie International Nuclear Policy Conference in Washington, DC on Monday that the United States seeks to settle the issues related to the treaty, which was signed in 1987.

    The diplomat said the goal is to find a mutually acceptable solution to the issues which Washington raised during the consultations with the Russian government. She said the discussions on the issue are ongoing.

    Washington has recently started suspecting that Moscow is violating the INF treaty, the US official said. According to the US, Russia is developing a new cruise missile which is banned under the treaty.

    The Russian officials say that the US itself violates the treaty. In February, Russian Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov said that the US actions "are in conflict with the spirit and the letter of this document." For instance, the minister said armed drones widely used by the US fall within the treaty’s definition of intermediate-range cruise land-based missiles.

    "The treaty directly prohibits ABM launchers, which will soon be deployed in Romania and Poland, because they can be used to launch intermediate-range cruise missiles," the minister said.

    "While refusing to acknowledge these facts, our US colleagues assert they have some "substantiated" claims against Russia with respect to the INF Treaty, but diligently avoid specifics," he said.

    In comments to Moscow’s accusations, Gottemoeller said that in her opinion the Russian colleagues had been provided with "substantial information" on the issue. She also confirmed the US readiness to continue talks in an effort to solve the dispute related to the INF treaty.

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    Re: INF Treaty - coming to the end of its life

    Post  max steel on Fri May 15, 2015 12:44 am

    Engagement Required to Resolve US-Russian Mutual Charges of INF Violations

    US lawmakers and military officials, including Secretary of Defense Ashton Carter, have proposed that the US consider withdrawing from the INF Treaty . Twisted Evil




    http://sputniknews.com/politics/20150515/1022154652.html#ixzz3a9hnoGqi




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    Re: INF Treaty - coming to the end of its life

    Post  magnumcromagnon on Fri May 15, 2015 1:31 am

    max steel wrote:Engagement Required to Resolve US-Russian Mutual Charges of INF Violations

    US lawmakers and military officials, including Secretary of Defense Ashton Carter, have proposed that the US consider withdrawing from the INF Treaty .  Twisted Evil




    http://sputniknews.com/politics/20150515/1022154652.html#ixzz3a9hnoGqi




    Let's hope they're stupid enough to pull out of it. Ballistic technology (civil and military) is the field where Russia excels above everyone else, Russian strategic SAM's are rather superior than NATO's equivalents, so letting Russia have IRBM's will be more of an advantage than a disadvantage considering how the U.S. has no neighboring countries that have IRBM arsenals, while Russia has several neighboring countries that do (China, North Korea, Pakistan, India, Iran).

    It's just like NATO's push for a coup in Ukraine that ended up giving Russia Crimea, this will also backfire and help Russia more than hurt it.

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    Re: INF Treaty - coming to the end of its life

    Post  kvs on Fri May 15, 2015 4:09 am

    magnumcromagnon wrote:
    max steel wrote:Engagement Required to Resolve US-Russian Mutual Charges of INF Violations

    US lawmakers and military officials, including Secretary of Defense Ashton Carter, have proposed that the US consider withdrawing from the INF Treaty .  Twisted Evil




    http://sputniknews.com/politics/20150515/1022154652.html#ixzz3a9hnoGqi




    Let's hope they're stupid enough to pull out of it. Ballistic technology (civil and military) is the field where Russia excels above everyone else, Russian strategic SAM's are rather superior than NATO's equivalents, so letting Russia have IRBM's will be more of an advantage than a disadvantage considering how the U.S. has no neighboring countries that have IRBM arsenals, while Russia has several neighboring countries that do (China, North Korea, Pakistan, India, Iran).

    It's just like NATO's push for a coup in Ukraine that ended up giving Russia Crimea, this will also backfire and help Russia more than hurt it.

    This US posturing is clearly a ploy to break the INF in order to put nuclear warheads on the ABM shield missiles. That is the only
    solution that has any technical merit. No kinetic kill warhead can be effective against incoming warheads that do not follow ballistic
    trajectories that can be calculated in advance.

    I guess the retards in Washington really believe that they can make the ABM shield work and that it will give them a total nuclear advantage
    over Russia. These retards need to have that lump of rotten flesh extracted from their crania and the empty space filled with cement.
    Russia can deploy more and more warheads with more and more active maneuvering and assorted other tricks. For example, a two
    stage attack where an initial round of warheads disperses aerosol (metallic, and other chemicals) over the target. Any attempt
    to nuke incoming warheads in this fog will be mostly nullified unless the proximity is close. But the best solution is the simplest, increase
    the number of incoming warheads. Fill the sky with small nuclear detonations and you achieve more than using one large warhead.

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    Re: INF Treaty - coming to the end of its life

    Post  GarryB on Fri May 15, 2015 11:58 am

    Indeed if the plan is to allow nuclear armed ABMs then they are wasting their time...

    With an operational ABM system in Europe I rather doubt the Russians would consider arms limitations treaties on IRBMs... START only covers SLBMs, cruise missiles, and ICBMs.

    Which means Russia could simply build an enormous number of conventionally and nuclear armed IRBMs and medium range cruise missiles to deal with any ABM system in Europe or any where else...


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    Re: INF Treaty - coming to the end of its life

    Post  max steel on Fri May 15, 2015 12:40 pm

    Are there any missiles except ICBM's with which Russia can hit US mainland without getting intercepted ?

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    Re: INF Treaty - coming to the end of its life

    Post  kvs on Sat May 16, 2015 3:42 pm

    max steel wrote:Are there any missiles except ICBM's with which Russia can hit US mainland without getting intercepted ?

    The only other such missiles would be he SLBMs. They should design MIRV systems that have dozens of small 15 kiloton warheads.
    But there may be some limitation such as a minimum size on the warheads and related to it that a much higher yield does not necessarily
    require a much larger warhead. There are suitcase nuclear bombs so these aspects are well known for a long time.

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    Re: INF Treaty - coming to the end of its life

    Post  GarryB on Sun May 17, 2015 11:53 am

    I think 152mm was the smallest calibre artillery nuke the Soviets developed... at about 40-50kgs you could fit a few on a SLBM warhead bus...


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    Re: INF Treaty - coming to the end of its life

    Post  George1 on Tue May 26, 2015 1:02 pm

    Russian deputy FM says no progress with US on Intermediate-Range Nuclear Forces Treaty

    The INF Treaty was not discussed during the recent visit to Moscow by US Assistant Secretary of State Victoria Nuland

    MOSCOW, May 26. /TASS/. There has been no progress in implementing the Intermediate-Range Nuclear Forces (INF)Treaty with the United States, Russian Deputy Foreign Minister Sergey Ryabkov told reporters on Tuesday, answering a question from a TASS correspondent on whether contacts with the American side on the issue were planned.

    "In the US Department of State, the INF issues are overseen by Under Secretary for Arms Control and International Security Rose Gottemoeller," he said. "We are in constant contact with her. However, there is no progress indeed in this area."

    Ryabkov added the INF Treaty was not discussed during the recent visit to Moscow by US Assistant Secretary of State Victoria Nuland. "She does not deal with the issue, that’s not her competence," he said.

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    Re: INF Treaty - coming to the end of its life

    Post  max steel on Tue May 26, 2015 6:33 pm

    "
    George1 wrote:


    Ryabkov added the INF Treaty was not discussed during the recent visit to Moscow by US Assistant Secretary of State Victoria Nuland. "She does not deal with the issue, that’s not her competence," he said


    Ofcourse her competence is in bringing different color revolutions . Just tell her your favorite colour .

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    Re: INF Treaty - coming to the end of its life

    Post  George1 on Fri Jun 05, 2015 10:41 am

    US may deploy land-based missiles in Europe

    The move would be a response to Russia's alleged violation of a Cold War-era intermediate nuclear force (INF) Soviet-US treaty

    NEW YORK, June 5. /TASS/. Washington is weighing an opportunity of installing land-based that could pre-emptively destroy the Russian weapons in Europe or Asia, says a report by US Chairman of Joint Chiefs of Staff Gen Martin Dempsey revealed by the Associated Press.

    The move would be a response to Russia's alleged violation of a Cold War-era intermediate nuclear force (INF) Soviet-US treaty of 1987. The treaty outlawed the intermediate and shorter range missiles.

    Russia has repeatedly dismissed US accusations of violating provisions of the treaty. The director of the Russian Foreign Ministry’s department for nonproliferation and armaments control, Mikhail Ulyanov, said on Monday at a review conference on observance of the Nuclear Nonproliferation Treaty that Washington’s claims are totally ungrounded and Washington pursues the goal of discrediting Russia.

    "The American side has again made totally unfounded charges against us claiming we’re violating the INF," Ulyanov says. "Along with it, the US refuses or, most probably, is unable to substantiate these claims with any concrete facts."

    "One gets an impression the actual objective is to try and discredit Russia and to profile it as a state encroaching on its international commitments," he said a response to a speech by the US Secretary of State, John Kerry.

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    Re: INF Treaty - coming to the end of its life

    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Fri Jun 05, 2015 12:42 pm

    max steel wrote:Are there any missiles except ICBM's with which Russia can hit US mainland without getting intercepted ?

    There was Pioneer in times of USSR AFAIK was to be stationed massively on Chukotka region.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SS-20_Saber



    But I d presume now due to modular design Rubezh/Yars derivative with less stages can be employed. And as SRBM Iskander on steroids with over 1000km range



    Skorost my fav way to cool down EU Rusophobes.
    http://militaryrussia.ru/blog/index-515.html

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    Re: INF Treaty - coming to the end of its life

    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Fri Jun 05, 2015 12:48 pm

    George1 wrote:US may deploy land-based missiles in Europe

    The move would be a response to Russia's alleged violation of a Cold War-era intermediate nuclear force (INF) Soviet-US treaty


    This aggresive bankrupt on clay legs already has hundreds of Tomahawks around Russia. They need war and the whole EU/Turkey/Japan is an acceptable loss but not mainland US. Where golden billions´ HQ is.

    Thus with no INF Russia wins actually. Mass of nuked IRBMs/SRBMSs can ¨cover¨ EU till Spain and Turkey. IRBM as Pioneer can focus on Alaska and Canada and ICMB can exclusively focus on friend and family of US around the globe .

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    Re: INF Treaty - coming to the end of its life

    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Fri Jun 05, 2015 12:50 pm

    max steel wrote:"
    George1 wrote:


    Ryabkov added the INF Treaty was not discussed during the recent visit to Moscow by US Assistant Secretary of State Victoria Nuland. "She does not deal with the issue, that’s not her competence," he said  


    Ofcourse her competence is in bringing different color revolutions . Just tell her your favorite colour .

    Currently red and black as in IIIrd Reich. But after $ collapse will be sh!tty Smile

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    Re: INF Treaty - coming to the end of its life

    Post  George1 on Fri Jun 05, 2015 2:10 pm

    Russia may withdraw from the INF Treaty with the deployment in Europe of US missiles

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    Re: INF Treaty - coming to the end of its life

    Post  sepheronx on Fri Jun 05, 2015 10:56 pm

    US Considers Military Response to Russia's Alleged INF Violation

    The Americans are trying to make excuses for placing missile systems in Europe. In other words, INF is dead and Russia will end up probably building en mass cruise missiles with ranges enough to strike ABM systems and other missile systems in Europe.

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    Re: INF Treaty - coming to the end of its life

    Post  sepheronx on Fri Jun 05, 2015 11:12 pm

    Lawmaker: Moscow can answer possible deployment of US nuclear missiles in Europe

    Americans are very stupid people it appears.  You cannot counter Russian nukes or missile systems this way.  They are far spread out and if they don't break INF, they cannot try to "counter them".  Even if it is an impossible task.

    If the US decides to actually abandon INF and places missiles in Europe to so called counter Russia, then Russia could build systems that carries and fires multiple of cruise missiles in salvo, effectively making US anti missile systems incapable. Cruise missiles are relatively cheap to make and thus it will be even easier to build them en mass. They could also expand Iskander to reach much farther. They could also increase number of land strike variants of cruise missiles with long range for Kilo submarines and surface ships.

    Effectively, Russia has plenty of options. They could also open up bases in Venezuela and other countries and place such missiles in those countries too.

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    Re: INF Treaty - coming to the end of its life

    Post  Werewolf on Fri Jun 05, 2015 11:24 pm

    sepheronx wrote:Lawmaker: Moscow can answer possible deployment of US nuclear missiles in Europe

    Americans are very stupid people it appears.  You cannot counter Russian nukes or missile systems this way.  They are far spread out and if they don't break INF, they cannot try to "counter them".  Even if it is an impossible task.

    If the US decides to actually abandon INF and places missiles in Europe to so called counter Russia, then Russia could build systems that carries and fires multiple of cruise missiles in salvo, effectively making US anti missile systems incapable.  Cruise missiles are relatively cheap to make and thus it will be even easier to build them en mass.  They could also expand Iskander to reach much farther.  They could also increase number of land strike variants of cruise missiles with long range for Kilo submarines and surface ships.

    Effectively, Russia has plenty of options.  They could also open up bases in Venezuela and other countries and place such missiles in those countries too.

    I highly doubt that those missile shields in Euromeatshield are even believed to target russian missiles aiming at US. Since the entire NATO (US) logistics goes through Germany,France and UK for their military NATO projection for Europe, they will when a war gets hot or when tactical nukes are deployed, they will need to target those locations and since Tactical nuking is a very calculated game to destroy offensive or defensive capabilities of your enemy with least amount possible theatre/tactical nuke deplyoment, it is a rather calculated game of Downing such missiles. Tactical nukes are rather easy to intercept than Strategic ones.

    Like discussed in another thread of Russia invading US (is it possible), i've already said, if the US tries to attack or NATO as a whole is trying to sustain a short or long term war against Russia, all that russia must do is tactically nuke NATO supply routes in Germany, that will bring the entire NATO war machinery to an almost instant hold. Those ABM shields are exactly for tactical nuking aka serious WW3 preperations.

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    Re: INF Treaty - coming to the end of its life

    Post  sepheronx on Fri Jun 05, 2015 11:52 pm

    Werewolf wrote:
    sepheronx wrote:Lawmaker: Moscow can answer possible deployment of US nuclear missiles in Europe

    Americans are very stupid people it appears.  You cannot counter Russian nukes or missile systems this way.  They are far spread out and if they don't break INF, they cannot try to "counter them".  Even if it is an impossible task.

    If the US decides to actually abandon INF and places missiles in Europe to so called counter Russia, then Russia could build systems that carries and fires multiple of cruise missiles in salvo, effectively making US anti missile systems incapable.  Cruise missiles are relatively cheap to make and thus it will be even easier to build them en mass.  They could also expand Iskander to reach much farther.  They could also increase number of land strike variants of cruise missiles with long range for Kilo submarines and surface ships.

    Effectively, Russia has plenty of options.  They could also open up bases in Venezuela and other countries and place such missiles in those countries too.

    I highly doubt that those missile shields in Euromeatshield are even believed to target russian missiles aiming at US. Since the entire NATO (US) logistics goes through Germany,France and UK for their military NATO projection for Europe, they will when a war gets hot or when tactical nukes are deployed, they will need to target those locations and since Tactical nuking is a very calculated game to destroy offensive or defensive capabilities of your enemy with least amount possible theatre/tactical nuke deplyoment, it is a rather calculated game of Downing such missiles. Tactical nukes are rather easy to intercept than Strategic ones.

    Like discussed in another thread of Russia invading US (is it possible), i've already said, if the US tries to attack or NATO as a whole is trying to sustain a short or long term war against Russia, all that russia must do is tactically nuke NATO supply routes in Germany, that will bring the entire NATO war machinery to an almost instant hold. Those ABM shields are exactly for tactical nuking aka serious WW3 preperations.

    Then more cruise missiles are needed as those ABM's cannot deal with Cruise missiles. At the same time, more S-300V4's, S-400s and S-500's eventually to help protect Russia from NATO Missiles. At same time, striking hard and lots at military instillations that would be protecting ABM sites would be needed, so missiles like cruise missiles would be enough, especially with modern high explosive warheads. Hopefully systems much like Iskander but carrying more than 4 or 6 Klub missiles could be considered to strike the positions. Having enough of them with the ability to work remotely, I would say would give Russia the benefit of being able to strike very hard. Since they would be based within the country or Kaliningrad, they could effectively strike at any country in eastern Europe, that would be basing these ABM sites and missiles sites. Poland for example. In Crimea, they would be able to strike Romania quite easily.

    As well, hopefully Russia goes for non nuclear based ICBM systems carrying special type of warheads of heavy high explosives to be able to build them, store them and use them much cheaper than nuclear.

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    Re: INF Treaty - coming to the end of its life

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