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    Russian Radar systems

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    Post  Hole on Sat Mar 09, 2019 9:31 pm

    Nope.

    First tactical aircraft in Russia fitted with an APU was the Su-34 from Batch 2 (end of 2011) onwards.

    Quotes: "The auxiliary power unit supplies AC power to aircraft systems and provides airconditioning of the cockpit and avionics compartments on the ground. It reduces the dependence on ground support equipment (the vehicles with APA in the name) when operating from auxiliary airstrips."

    Russian Radar systems - Page 18 102310
    It is a small generator working with kerosin instead of diesel. You can clearly see the flap over the exhaust.

    In the air energy is generated from a generator fitted to each engine, tranformers and converters are also fitted, the so called accessories.
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    Post  miketheterrible on Sun Mar 10, 2019 1:08 am

    Thanks for correction. Point still stands, not enough power provided for radar systems.
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    Post  GarryB on Sun Mar 10, 2019 9:29 am

    APUs, as mentioned above are for allowing aircraft start ups without bit ground based power units to turn on air con systems and to start engines etc.

    Most Russian tactical aircraft have APUs and do not require truck mounted power systems to start...

    The Su-34 had a new bigger model fitted because of the amount of electronics and systems on board.

    In flight the APUs are not used... power is taken from the engines to operate radar and most onboard systems.

    Radar power has dramatically increased over recent years, and their might have been issues where the onboard power capacity has not allowed full use of sensor power, but radars never operate at full power for very long anyway and spend 80% of their time listening and receiving...

    A few years ago they were developing a new jammer platform and it came down to a Backfire and an Il-76 and the Il-76 won simply because there was more room for larger jammers and four engines for providing takeoff power so they could be more powerful too.
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    Post  Hole on Sun Mar 10, 2019 11:13 am

    miketheterrible wrote:Thanks for correction. Point still stands, not enough power provided for radar systems.

    Absolutely.

    Don´t know if they could fit stronger generators to the engines. dunno
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    Post  LMFS on Sun Mar 10, 2019 2:25 pm

    Hole wrote:Don´t know if they could fit stronger generators to the engines.  dunno
    It does not seem too far fetched that you could drain hundreds of kW when you power plant generates tens of MWs as fighter engine does, the issue is probably volume and most critically thermal management. It is supposed that the third air stream in newer variable cycle engines destined to 6G planes, where electrical power will really grow manifold, will help with the heat evacuation that all the electric power handling and conditioning will require.
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    Post  GarryB on Mon Mar 11, 2019 4:21 am

    I think you guys are a little confused.... most modern aircraft have batteries so that if their engines shut down they can still restart them and continue to use the avionics and hydraulic systems on board the aircraft.

    Some aircraft have APUs often because they have extensive and energy rapacious devices on board like lots of computers and sensors and systems, including lots of screens in the cockpit etc etc.

    In the very early days of aircraft they had a small trailer they towed out to the aircraft line to plug the plane in to start their engines.... once their engines were going they had power so they were disconnected and took off.

    Some planes even had powder charge starters like a shotgun starter, while others used compressed air starters, but these days batteries have replaced all that shit for most aircraft... many bigger aircraft with bigger power consumption requirements... the Su-34 has been mentioned but the Tu-22M3 also uses APU support, and so do modern fighters like the Mig-29 and Su-27 simply because batteries are not always reliable in cold climates.

    An APU is not used in flight... it is used on the ground to help start the aircrafts engines.

    Normal onboard power is taken from the main engines using electrical generators... massive increases in power requirements simply mean the performance of those electrical generators has to be upgraded to keep pace... not a huge deal, but not nothing either.

    Even more reason to work on all electric vehicles and EMALS type systems...

    Imagine in 30 years time when a tiny nuclear battery putting out enormous energy for up to 10 years continuous could be placed in an aircraft with electric motors to "fly" it... after 10 years of continuous use with no fuelling, you just remove the battery and replace it with a new one and refuel the old battery.

    Saudi Arabia and Venezuela should be afraid, but I am surprised the US is working against it because cheap energy is good for everyone but the oil companies... (I know they call themselves energy companies now, but that is like the war departments and ministries of war in the west over night becoming defence departments and ministries of defence... new name, same old snake.)
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    Post  dino00 on Mon Mar 18, 2019 10:35 pm

    We will find a hypersonic device"

    Viktor Ivantsov, developer of the world's most powerful Daryal radar, on upgrading a missile attack warning system


    The chief designer of Daryal and Voronezh, now an adviser to the chairman of the board of directors of the Radiotechnical Institute. A.L. Mintz, Hero of Socialist Labor, Viktor Ivantsov, told Izvestia about how the station is being modernized, how long it can serve, and why the United States did not succeed in creating its counterpart.

    Full interview
    https://iz.ru/856863/aleksei-ramm/my-obnaruzhim-giperzvukovoi-apparat
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    Post  LMFS on Mon Mar 18, 2019 11:17 pm

    Great interview, thanks!
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    Post  LMFS on Wed Apr 10, 2019 12:06 am

    Russian radar can see the "invisible" F-22, F-35 and B-2 for 200 kilometers

    Nizhny Novgorod designers from NNIIRT surpassed colleagues from "Lockheed-Martin"
    Vladimir Tuchkov

    In air defense units of the Russian Ground forces expect the new radar standby 1Л125 "Niobium-SV", which will eventually replace the existing station. This was reported by "Interfax" an informed source.

    "It is planned to replace the entire series radar standby, which stand on arms air defense of Land forces, — said the Agency interlocutor. — "Niobium-SV" can detect over a large range of all types of targets, including small and inconspicuous".

    According to the information available to the Ground forces already passed 6 stations. Here is their place of "residence": the Military Academy of the Troops of air defense. Marshal A. M. Vasilevsky (Smolensk) and in/h in Orenburg, in the red River (Khabarovsk, Russia), the Rybinsk-18 (Yaroslavl region), Novocherkassk (Rostov oblast), Gagarin (Sverdlovsk region).

    Radar "Niobium-SV" is the development of the Nizhny Novgorod research Institute of radio engineering (NNIIRT), which is included in the concern "Almaz-Antey". Belongs to a class of radar standby mode, which is designed to detect, track maintenance, and determine the nationality of aerial objects of all types of aircraft, including built in stealth technology, helicopters, cruise and ballistic missiles, small unmanned aerial vehicles. Information about the state of controlled airspace is transmitted to the command centers, air defenses, and directly at SAM.

    "Niobium-SV" is not entirely new station. In the mid 80-ies of NNIIRT developed radar standby "Sky", which was a significant step forward in the field of radar standby medium and long range. 10 years later appeared a more advanced modification of the "Sky". And subsequently, the citizens continued to develop this area, creating stations "Nebo-SV", "Sky-IED". In 2013 appeared the station "Niobium". Well, the radar "Niobium-SV" at the moment, is the most effective in this range.

    Radar works in the meter range, which makes it easy to distinguish, and for a very considerable distance, planes-"invisible" — and bombers B-2 Spirit and F-22 Raptor and F-35 Lightning II. Experts say that any "invisible" to radar meter range differs little from the normal plane of the third or fourth generation having the same dimensions.

    Radar equipped with an antenna with a phased antenna array. Scanning in elevation is electronic.

    Radar "Niobium-SV" has the following characteristics.

    The target detection range in altitude: 500 m — 53 km, 10,000 m, 230 km 27000 — 320 km.

    Simultaneously monitored up to 300 goals.

    Deployment time station — 15 min.

    The mobile station, placed on a wheeled chassis of KAMAZ.

    Radar "Niobium-SV" is produced at the Nizhny Novgorod machine-building plant. The 70th anniversary of the Victory, which was recently built especially for the production of anti-aircraft missile systems s-400 and s-500.

    "Heaven" and "Niobium" is not the only line of radar, in service with the land forces air defense. There are other stations that began to be produced recently. However, they have slightly different characteristics. And, consequently, different characteristics.

    At the end of the last decade, the army began to enter the development of the same Nizhny Novgorod NNIIRT — mobile three-coordinate radar 59Н6 "Enemy-GE". She works in the UHF band, therefore, having about the same ability to detect stealth targets, to more accurately determine their coordinates. This accuracy is sufficient not only to issue an "informational" data to the command post, but for target designation for air defense fighters and SAM missiles.

    Volume of equipment more serious than the "Niobium-SV". The station will be located on two wheel chassis.

    High accuracy of determining the target coordinates provided by UHF, digital phased array antenna and processing extracted from the antenna signals on a high-performance processor using efficient algorithms. "Enemy-GE" capable of detecting targets with RCS less than 0.1 sq. m. (as in cruise missiles and, in fact, have the same stealth aircraft) at a distance of 200 km, with ESR of 1.5 sq. m. (fighter with reduced visibility) at the distance of 340 km.

    The station has a high degree of protection from interference influence of the enemy.

    The target detection range in altitude: 100 m — 40 km 1000 m 100 km, 5000 m — 240 km, 12 km — 340 km.

    At the same time tracked back to 150 goals.

    Deployment time station — 40 min.

    And finally, for about ten years in the army operates another development NNIIRT — portable three-coordinate radar UHF waves 1Л122 "Accordion".

    Designed to determine the air situation in the area of the tactical level. Detects planes, helicopters and drones, determines their coordinates and sends the information to the complexes of automated control systems for air defense. Can also be used for illumination purposes when you hover over them guided munitions.

    Available in two versions: portable (1Л122-E1) and mobile on a tracked chassis (1Л122-E2). Various modifications have a range of 40 km and 80 km. a Portable modification (three containers of 30 kg each) may secretly install close to the enemy positions. Due to the fact that the antenna radiated the signal has little power, radar difficult to detect by technical means of the enemy.

    The unfolding of the station takes 5 minutes. A tripod is installed on the antenna array sizes of 120×80 cm Connecting the electronic unit and the power supply unit provides power of 800 watts. The GLONASS signal is defined by the location of the radar, then "Accordion" ready to work. Data displayed on the operator display as well as transmitted wirelessly to the KP.

    "Manual" "Accordion", the weight of which is minimized for possible hand-carry, nevertheless, has a sufficiently high performance. Range — 40 km, the maximum height of target detection — 10 km.

    Mobile version of the stations based on the tracked amphibious armored personnel carrier MT-LBU. Due to the larger antenna size and power range and height of targets was doubled to 80 km and 20 km, respectively.

    From the foregoing it is seen that in air and missile defense involve not only specific air defense system, equipped with its own radar "vision". There is a single network detection of air threats, enemy aircraft on the distant approaches, passing information about them in missile divisions. So the gunners have the time to prepare to meet the enemy. That is, if the target detection range, say, zrpk "Carapace-C1" is 40 km, it does not mean that the calculation of the complex does not know what is going on at a greater distance. And that the missile or low-flying plane suddenly emerges from obscurity.

    Two years ago, Russia has created (or rather restored) is inextricably radar field. It is formed not only such "monsters" of radar as radar "Voronezh" with the range of the review in 4,000 km, but the radar tactical and operational-tactical level.

    With a detection range of 200 km for a target with 0.1 sqm and claiming the F-22 is ca. 0.5 sqm equivalent, it is normal that Russian military are so sceptic about the capacities of US stealth.

    Also interesting that UHF is considered precise enough to provide targeting info for missiles.
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    Post  southpark on Wed Apr 10, 2019 2:52 am

    Question is would you take the range as 100 to 150 km or go for 250 to 300 km depending on whether it is exaggeration or intentional understating?
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    Post  Hole on Wed Apr 10, 2019 11:10 am

    Russian Radar systems - Page 18 000236

    Niobium-SV, antenna folded
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    Post  kvs on Thu Apr 11, 2019 4:31 am

    The notion of a single figure representing the EM backscatter of an object with the shape of an F-22 is ludicrous. It will have
    different backscatter from different aspects and especially from those absurd billboard sized rudders. And for any given aspect
    the backscatter will vary with the frequency of the EM illumination source. Without specifying the frequency of the radar
    that the 0.5 m^2 effective cross section corresponds to the figure is basically meaningless.

    A detail missed by all the uneducated (in physics) fanbois is that gallium nitride amps out-compete in overcoming signal to noise
    issues for "stealth" objects the efforts at shaping and RAM coating of such objects. Just cranking up the radar beam intensity can
    expose some "near detection limit" wunderwaffe. And you can bet your bottom dollar that the US military planning requires
    that any radar sites are neutralized before F-22 and F-35 operations can begin in earnest. Too bad for the US and its imperial
    ambitions, but this planning only works on 3rd world countries with pathetically weak and unprepared militaries.
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    Post  LMFS on Thu Apr 11, 2019 4:57 am

    kvs wrote:The notion of a single figure representing the EM backscatter of an object with the shape of an F-22 is ludicrous.
    Russian sources refer to averages RCS.
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    Post  Austin on Thu Apr 11, 2019 6:14 am

    UHF was always precise enough to giude the missile but with latest updates in Signal Processing it could have reached X band level.

    Infact I have read both S and L band are precise enough to guide a missile close enough , Hence the latest E-2D radar are in S band......If I am not wrong even Aegis system is S band.

    From what I understand and a claim made by Carl Kopp who has since been told to shut his shop off by Intel Agency when he started criticising the F-35 and made public some things from Russian radar that was not known ....was Russian VHF radar is precise enough to guide a missile close enough that the on board seeker of missile can than go autonomous and track the target.

    He mentioned the VHF band radar can guide S-400 missile close enough that its onboard seeker then lock to the target.

    I am sure Russian Designers would be working to improve the accuracy further of meter/vhf band
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    Post  Isos on Thu Apr 11, 2019 9:03 am

    In open sources you will see that L band radars at least for russian that I saw have an error marge of 2-3 km in range. That's why they couldn't use them for old semi active missiles in soviet union. They needed something much more precise.

    But with active radar missiles, that doesn't matter. The missile will activate its own radar from 30 to 20km from the target. So the 2km of error will be within the 20km of the radar detection range of the missile and it will find it by itself. Being much more closer stealth has less impact.

    The closer the radar is the better it sees.

    The real advantage of such system is that L band radars are impossible to be precisly detected by fighters. They will know a big radar is operating but they don't know where. You need those huge antennas to detect L band. The missile activates its radar at then end which makes it a stealth system.

    See no need for Carlo's top secret informations. Laughing
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    Post  LMFS on Thu Apr 11, 2019 12:47 pm

    L band is decimeter wavelength, that is only 1 order of magnitude bigger than X band. Have not checked data about concrete radars but I don't think the guidance precision would be anything as bad as kilometers...

    The question here is at what distance can the seeker of a missile track a "stealth" target (BTW, still wanting to know if the Japanese F-35 had some reflector on it before it "disappeared" from the radar), considering the manoeuvring going on, jamming and top aspect attack. Seems logical indeed to guide the missile close enough to the target for the ARH to take care of the end game, but have seen no hard data on this.
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    Post  Hole on Thu Apr 11, 2019 4:24 pm

    More likely a transponder.
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    Post  kvs on Thu Apr 11, 2019 4:31 pm

    LMFS wrote:
    kvs wrote:The notion of a single figure representing the EM backscatter of an object with the shape of an F-22 is ludicrous.
    Russian sources refer to averages RCS.

    By average you mean weighted integral over all frequencies and aspects? I doubt anybody has produced such numbers for real 3D models with RAM damping taken into account. These are back of the envelope estimates not worth the time of day.

    The point is that even 0.0001 m^2 RCS can be detected. It is all about the signal to noise discrimination.

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    Post  kvs on Thu Apr 11, 2019 4:51 pm

    Isos wrote:In open sources you will see that L band radars at least for russian that I saw have an error marge of 2-3 km in range. That's why they couldn't use them for old semi active missiles in soviet union. They needed something much more precise.

    But with active radar missiles, that doesn't matter. The missile will activate its own radar from 30 to 20km from the target. So the 2km of error will be within the 20km of the radar detection range of the missile and it will find it by itself. Being much more closer stealth has less impact.

    The closer the radar is the better it sees.

    The real advantage of such system is that L band radars are impossible to be precisly detected by fighters. They will know a big radar is operating but they don't know where. You need those huge antennas to detect L band. The missile activates its radar at then end which makes it a stealth system.

    See no need for Carlo's top secret informations. Laughing

    How can the L-band radar with a 15-30 cm wavelength have an error of 3 km in detection? Why not 30 km? All these claims are vapid since the do not conform to reality. They are implicitly claiming that Russian technology is so primitive that timing GHz frequency signals can't be done to a high level of precision. This is basic physics we are talking about here. The timing of the backscatter can be made very precise by design. It takes a microsecond for speed of light travel to cover 3 km. So nano-second electronic timers are more than good enough unless the target is sitting on top of the detector. It is not as if Russia has no electronics that can operate in the 10-100 GHz range which is way more than enough for nanosecond timers. For f*ck's sake they can use gallium arsenide parts.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gallium_arsenide

    I would divide the km claims by an easy factor of 100 giving an error envelope under 30 meters and reflecting the fact that both the detector and target are moving. According to assorted NATO fanboi clowns, Soviet and Russian ICBM warheads had an over 50% chance of missing a target the size of a city. Pure masturbatory fantasy.
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    Post  LMFS on Thu Apr 11, 2019 5:14 pm

    kvs wrote:By average you mean weighted integral over all frequencies and aspects?   I doubt anybody has produced such numbers for real 3D models with RAM damping taken into account.  These are back of the envelope estimates not worth the time of day.  

    The point is that even 0.0001 m^2 RCS can be detected.  It is all about the signal to noise discrimination.
    Some of them refer to centimeter wavelengths but I am not sure for others. The way the average is calculated (how is it weighted and so on) is unclear to me but I assume it comprises different aspects. They are obviously not going to be ultra-detailed when addressing the public in any case.

    I very much assume Russian institutes have dedicated lot of time and thought to assess all existing and future LO and VLO weapons of any potential rival. This has been confirmed and we have even seen the institutions where the work is done on Zvezda documentaries. Also claims that signatures from Syria confirm previous estimations, be it real or just politically motivated claims. When people like Davidenko talk about such estimates then I assume they are basically correct, even if deliberately vague.

    A couple of sources here for you to check:

    Russian 35-x is also carried out measures to reduce radar visibility. The avionics systems include a powerful multifunctional radar with a phased antenna array, which provides detection of air targets like the F-35 with an average EPR of about σ ≈ 0,3...0,5 m2 at a range in excess of energobalancecentre launch range missiles AIM-120.

    www.aviapanorama.ru/2019/02/v-borbu-za-nebo-vstupajut-35-e/

    Russian Radar systems - Page 18 Estima10

    www.aviapanorama.ru/2015/12/aerodinamika-i-zametnost-uspeshno-sochetayutsya-v-la-novogo-pokoleniya/

    Mindstorm linked this some time ago too, last pages have estimations of different air targets including B-2:

    http://radar.dinos.net/content_ru.htm
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    Post  Isos on Fri Apr 12, 2019 12:10 am

    @KVS Open source. Easy to find.

    http://www.hmarzenal.hu/eng/defense-industry/p-18-radar.html

    They are talking about modernization of P-18 radar which was one if the most used L band radar by soviets. Resolution was 2km and they bring it to 1km.

    So it's not good for guiding semi active radar missile but possible with an active radar. But I doubt this was ever done.
    Due to the quality of signal processing (favourable rate of false plots) and the digital signal output the radar can be connected to modern air surveillance systems with digital inputs even in the case when the radar constitutes a part of mobile, deployed unit.

    Increasing the resolution from 2 km to 1 km

    I also give you this but take it with a grain of salt since it is promotion from russian company.

    http://roe.ru/eng/catalog/air-defence-systems/radar-and-electro-optical-equipment-for-air-target-detection/gamma-de/

    Gamma De with 60-100m accuracy.


    Gamma-DE
    Surveillance radar
    The Gamma-DE surveillance radar is designed to effectively detect, identify, measure 3D coordinates, and track a wide range of current and future air threats, including high-altitude low-signature air-launched missiles in a heavy .electronic countermeasures and clutter environment, as well as to receive data from aircraft equipped with ICAO-code transponders.

    The radar can be used in automated and non-automated Air Force and Air Defence command and control systems and also as an air route surveillance radar in air traffic control and monitoring systems.

    Main features:

    modular equipment design;
    phased array;
    digital signal processing;
    solid-state transmitters of various power;
    use of data coming from other reconnaissance systems;
    automatic built-in test equipment, air conditioning system, automatic fire alarm and suppression system, and other service devices;
    provision is made for the delivery of a remote control equipment kit, enabling the operation of the radar at up to 15 km from the command & control post via a radio link, as well as the possibility to move the equipment cabin by 1,000 m away from the rotating antenna unit;
    easy to repair.
    Main characteristics
    Wavebanddecimetric (UHF)
    Coverage area:
    range, km:10 – 400
    elevation, deg-2…+60
    azimuth, deg360
    altitude, km120
    Target detection range:
    1 m2 RCS target400
    0.1 m2 RCS target240
    Target positioning accuracy:
    range, m60 – 100
    azimuth, ang.min10 – 11
    elevation, ang.min15 – 18
    Track capacity200
    Clutter rejection, dB50

    And many more on the website. You have even nebo radar spec.

    http://roe.ru/eng/catalog/air-defence-systems/radar-and-electro-optical-equipment-for-air-target-detection/nebo-svu/


    You have also everything about air defences spec, fighters spec, radar spec .... enjoy !
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    Post  dino00 on Fri Apr 12, 2019 12:21 am

    Russian "Vityaz" takes the watch

    April 14 - Day of the air defense troops.

    How the airborne borders of the country are protected today and what allows our air defense system to remain one of the most reliable in the world, says Lieutenant-General Yuri Grakhov, commander of the air and missile defense forces, deputy commander of the aerospace forces

    http://redstar.ru/russkij-vityaz-zastupaet-v-dozor/
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    Post  GarryB on Fri Apr 12, 2019 7:01 am

    Not sure why people think ARH at the end of an L band INS flight is a good idea... we have seen the IR images of F-22 and F-35 and B-2... why not lock on after launch missile with inertial navigation to the location of the threat and then IIR seeker for terminal attack... pretty much all passive and relatively achievable without any issues of RCS for the terminal phase...

    You could fit four or 5 optical sensors in the nose of the missiles with filters to only let specific frequencies through the nose so it can see the target but the target has to dazzle it in all the right frequencies to ensure defeating it with DIRCMs...
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    Post  LMFS on Fri Apr 12, 2019 3:20 pm

    GarryB wrote:Not sure why people think ARH at the end of an L band INS flight is a good idea... we have seen the IR images of F-22 and F-35 and B-2... why not lock on after launch missile with inertial navigation to the location of the threat and then IIR seeker for terminal attack... pretty much all passive and relatively achievable without any issues of RCS for the terminal phase...

    You could fit four or 5 optical sensors in the nose of the missiles with filters to only let specific frequencies through the nose so it can see the target but the target has to dazzle it in all the right frequencies to ensure defeating it with DIRCMs...

    Probably because we don't hear about such approach being used. Maybe because of ID problems of the target or dome heating issues with high speed missiles affecting IR. I heard about some Israeli AA missile with double seeker IR/radar, but don't know about such initiatives in Russia until now. There was the IR version of the R-27 but nothing apparently about R-77 whatever the reason is.

    In future multispectral seekers should be used, with radar, IR, optical or even acoustic footprints of the target being used to avoid countermeasures, until the only option will be to destroy the missile itself with small, short range self defence missiles / ammo or sheer RF power.
    Isos
    Isos

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    Russian Radar systems - Page 18 Empty Re: Russian Radar systems

    Post  Isos on Fri Apr 12, 2019 4:00 pm

    Last version of kh-58 have IR and passive radar for anti radar use. The IR sensor sees the radar if there is no radar emmission from it.

    In terms of air to air r-27t has the same speed as the radar version.

    They are also very limited by their batteries. The radar itself uses a big portion to work specially for active radar missiles. More sensor means need better and bigger batteries.

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    Russian Radar systems - Page 18 Empty Re: Russian Radar systems

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