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    Russian Radar systems

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    GarryB
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    Re: Russian Radar systems

    Post  GarryB on Mon Mar 28, 2011 10:20 am

    Raw power jamming would be difficult but smart jamming is possible , one
    possible scenerio I could think of is cruise missile equipped with DRFM
    jammers , while the S-300/400 batteries gets confused and tracks a
    ghost target , these cruise missile with small warhead and go and attack
    the main radar or simply use LOJ incase it gets jammed.

    A ghost target does not hide the fact that there is a threat. A Pantsir system located with the S-300/400 battery will look for targets using a range of sensors and its IIR channel will not detect the ghost targets.

    The jamming sets used with large SAMs are designed to attract missiles away from the actual radars of the SAM battery. They operate on the same frequencies and give off many of the same signals so a Home on Jam weapon will most likely home in and hit them... but as they are small armoured little boxes with a few strongly built structures that act as antennas even a direct hit will mean it is doing its job of keeping the primary radars safe.

    I mean Jam and Fool both a combination of both tactics would wreck any AD.

    The source location of the aircraft with the jammers and the source of the cruise missiles can be determined and those assets targeted by all sorts of weapons the Russians have, so I think even if it is successful in defeating one or two SAM sites that the destruction of the air bases or naval platforms, not to mention retaliation against any aircraft that are caught in Russian airspace will likely render such an attack counter productive.

    I recollect watching a Russian manufacture of DRFM pod jammers trying to
    jam a Patriot batteries while at the same time they fool the battery
    with ghost target and patriot fires at the ghost target , the DRFM pod
    based aircraft which was a Mig-29 fires HARM at the battery radar , see
    no reason why cant you try similar tactics at S-300/400 batteries.

    Because US air defence systems are a joke because they are in the control of the USAF and the USAF expects to have air control. The Russian air defence forces were a branch of the Russian AF, but didn't expect to have total air control. They therefore co-locate systems like Pantsir and also jammer and decoy units to help defend their SAM sites from direct attack.

    Yes the jammers would make their presense felt , but it would depend on
    the kind of jamming it is doing and making sure the listening radar are
    prone to HARM attack.

    Radars that are listening are by definition not prone to HARM attack. Radars that are emitting will detect HARMs at long range and will likely initiate a SAM launch to deal with said HARM.

    Ofcourse they can , I was just trying to point out alternatives way of hitting a target , something NATO tried in 99

    More like they had started a moral war and civilian casualties would be counter productive so they were using as many non lethal weapons as they could because bad publicity might stop the entire intervention.

    I think they need to further add IRST and Multiball sensor besides the
    radar and EO, they already the technology they need to just refine
    ,integrate and add those.

    I think there are enough currently in service to act as a deterrent. I think that once they have perfected and started production of QWIP chips that IIR sensors will become cheap and easy to mass produce and every EO sensor can have the benefits of long, medium, and short wave IIR as well as digital TV and partial UV spectrum visibility in a mass producible form that is as cheap as a CCD chip for a camera.
    In fact missiles with IIR seekers will become cheap enough to mass produce once QWIP chips are mass producible so missiles from Verba to 9m100 can be produced in large numbers cheaply.
    Missiles that would benefit from this sort of tech include missiles like Kh-29, Kh-25, Kh-38, HERMES, Verba, 9M100, IR versions of R-27, R-77, even retro fitted to older missiles like R-60 and R-3.

    Which SAM missile carries MMW radar ? MMW is certainly the most
    difficult band to jam , but also have limited potential in the way you
    can use it.

    The tracking and command guidance channels for Tunguska and Pantsir are in the MMW range.
    You don't think a CM wave radar can detect a target 8km away at 10m altitude do you?

    I think I am looking more that why SARH guidance is better or worse then
    Command Guidance , considering both system works on LOS principle.

    The problem is command guidance covers a range of guidance principles.
    From wire guided ATGMs like Milan and TOW, to laser beam riding missiles like Kornet, to radio command guided like ATAKA. Then you have a mix with Krisantema that can use SARH in MMW radar, or command guidance with laser beam riding... perhaps that is a hint. Krisantema is SARH against tanks and other metalic distinct targets, but for use against log bunkers or buildings or anything the radar can't get a clear lock on there is command guidance using laser beam riding.
    Of course when the command guidance uses an auto tracker there doesn't need to be operator input in the guidance, and SARH generally doesn't have continuous operator input either.

    Really it is two different ways of doing the same thing.

    What if the enemy jams the command guidance between Radar and Missile ?

    The use of coded beams would be normal so that several platforms can fire several missiles at once... imagine a flight of Havocs all armed with ATAKAs but only able to fire one missile at a time because the guidance signals from one helo was making all the other missiles launched crash into the ground.
    Laser beam riding missiles also look back at the launch platform so I really don't know how the target could interfere with that.
    The Tunguska uses a narrow beam signal directed at the outgoing missile with a coded beam to transmit flight commands... not sure the target could do much about that either.

    Probably a combination of IIR seeker , IRST/EO guidance would be the best bet

    You mean like on Javelin, or Kh-29T? DIRCMs seem only to be expanding in application, and a system designed to defeat an IR guided missile should defeat an IR SAM.

    multi-dimensional digital 3D-frequency-time and polarisation aggregate signal processing;

    Well if we break it down... a multi dimensional digital 3D frequency-time and polarisation aggregate signal processing... it is talking about processing data taking into account the fact that the space being scanned is 3 dimensions but also allowing for the different results the different signal frequencies should be producing and separating out the difference in performance to see if something is hiding in the airspace.

    Sounds like they are looking for stealth objects, or objects in extreme jamming environments.

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    Re: Russian Radar systems

    Post  medo on Mon Mar 28, 2011 5:34 pm

    I think they need to further add IRST and Multiball sensor besides the radar and EO, they already the technology they need to just refine ,integrate and add those.

    All Russian SAMs have EO system as back up, Tor-M2 ans Pantsir S1 have a kind of multi EO sensor with TI.


    What if the enemy jams the command guidance between Radar and Missile ?


    How? It is possible if target is between missile and SAM launcher which send radio signals, because missile looks back to SAM launcher and not to target. Also radio guidance signal have very thin angle like 1° and very high energy, so jammer must be extremly powerful to jam that signal.


    I think I am looking more that why SARH guidance is better or worse then Command Guidance , considering both system works on LOS principle.

    SARH homing heads could usually also work in passive mode in case of jamming, what mean they direct missile against the source of jamming. Combining with command guidance, it is very hard nut for enemy plane.

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    Re: Russian Radar systems

    Post  GarryB on Tue Mar 29, 2011 12:56 am

    SARH homing heads could usually also work in passive mode in case of
    jamming, what mean they direct missile against the source of jamming.

    Another thing to keep in mind that a modern SARH with digital processors and improved electronics are not the same as the old SARH systems like SPARROW or old model R-27. A modern SARH missile can be a very capable missile, and a viable alternative to the much more expensive ARH missiles.

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    Re: Russian Radar systems

    Post  medo on Tue Mar 29, 2011 8:58 pm

    Another thing to keep in mind that a modern SARH with digital processors and improved electronics are not the same as the old SARH systems like SPARROW or old model R-27. A modern SARH missile can be a very capable missile, and a viable alternative to the much more expensive ARH missiles.
    [quote]

    ARH homing heads could also work in passive mode to direct missile to the source of jamming and they could work in SARH mode against targets with small RCS, that small radar in missile could not find it and use radar from launcher to light the target for the missile.

    Do Russian industries develop or produce any new radar and EO FCS for towed AA guns like S-60 57 mm gun to replace old SON-9A radars? Autoloader developed for modernized PT-76 could be also used on towed guns. Larger cal. guns could reach higher targets than 23 mm or 30 mm guns and are more effective in environment with heavy jamming.

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    Re: Russian Radar systems

    Post  GarryB on Wed Mar 30, 2011 5:03 am

    There certainly seems to be a revival of interest in the 57mm S-60 gun and ammo... mostly in regard to laser guided shells.
    I suspect the most likely main forces behind its development in vehicles was for the upgrade of the PT-76 which might be in danger now that the focus has shifted from upgrades to new vehicles.
    I suspect the gun and ammo will remain a contender for the armament of future armoured vehicles, but I think what we will see is 57mm gun turrets appearing on naval vessels first and much of the design and production focus will be there.
    I think there is a small chance of unifying the calibre back into service in the three main branches (Air Force, Army, and Navy) but the chances of the round entering service in the air force will largely depend on the performance of the round as an anti vehicle round for CAS... perhaps in a UCAV aircraft with guided shells. It could even form the basis of a UCAV that hunts down enemy UAV and UCAVs with a combination of laser guided shells and of course AHEAD type rounds and proximity fused rounds for shooting down small light aircraft, or to loiter over the enemies rear areas taking out logistics vehicles.

    For the Navy there is a clear role of the 57mm gun in a stealthy turret for replacing 30mm gatlings in the CIWS role combining the accuracy of missiles with reduced cost and versatility of a gun.

    For the Army of course the 57mm gun might be a good compromise for the light brigades with significantly more direct fire HE and armour piercing performance over a 30mm round, yet smaller and less recoil than a 100mm rifled gun.

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    Re: Russian Radar systems

    Post  Austin on Wed Mar 30, 2011 5:53 am

    Check page 70-74 ,Eastern AirDefense Compared

    http://www.my-catalog.biz/R102510/

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    Re: Russian Radar systems

    Post  GarryB on Wed Mar 30, 2011 8:03 am

    First thing that jumped out at me was the part about the BUK M3 with 9M317M1 missiles fired vertically from sealed containers... clearly the vertical launch BUK will enter service... with the Russian Army.
    This will be the Army equivalent of Ezh.

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    Re: Russian Radar systems

    Post  Austin on Wed Mar 30, 2011 8:04 am

    Lets see what BUK-M3 turns out to be its still a mystery missile to me , well so is S-300V4 , but that is the fun part as well Smile

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    Re: Russian Radar systems

    Post  medo on Wed Mar 30, 2011 7:02 pm

    Buk-M3 is very mysterious project and very little is known about it. For now we see only Buk-M2. Is Buk-M3 different or the same project as Vityaz, but only Buk-M3 for ground forces and Vityaz for air force? Vityaz will use 9M96 missiles, but I don't know which missiles Buk-M3 will use.

    Any more news about Morfei SAM system or Sosna ground based SAM system? Are they the same or different projects?

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    Re: Russian Radar systems

    Post  GarryB on Thu Mar 31, 2011 2:09 am

    Any more news about Morfei SAM system or Sosna ground based SAM system? Are they the same or different projects?

    SOSNA is a simple beam riding missile. It is a bit like an SA-19 in appearance, but with the same guidance as the Kornet.
    Means it is relatively fast and difficult to jam.

    Morfei is supposed to be the 9M100 missile that is a joint missile developed for Army, Navy, and Air Force...
    For Air Force it will be an ASRAAM like weapon with lock on after launch capability with an IIR seeker that is needed for the PAK-FA. An IR guided AAM fired from the PAK FA needs to be launched without a lock on the target because when it is launched it wont see the target till it gets clear of the weapon bay anyway.
    For the Army it will replace the SA-13 series as a 10km range IIR seeking missile. There are rumours of the missile being used with the Vityaz launcher where medium range radar guided missiles and short range IR guided missiles can be mounted in vertical launch cells on a truck. Vityaz is the radar guided missile with a range of about 40km or 120km depending on the model and the IR guided missile is Morfei that can be used out to 10kms.
    And for the Navy the Morfei will be very similar in practise to the SEA RAM except it will be vertically launched and compatible with the standard AAM vertical launch bins being introduced to pretty much all surface ships.

    Actually the lock on after launch capability might make the Morfei an interesting weapon for submarines.

    Normally when air power is hunting subs all the subs can do is dive and hope the aircraft hasn't got the right weapons to take out the sub like homing torpedoes and depth charges.
    Using a SAM to destroy the aircraft (ie immediate threat) and then diving and running might allow the sub to escape.

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    Re: Russian Radar systems

    Post  medo on Thu Mar 31, 2011 6:51 pm

    I read, that Russian army will create arctic brigade. Do they also plan to build radar and air defense in arctic region or it will be in hands of AWACS planes and fighter planes like Mig-31?

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    Re: Russian Radar systems

    Post  Austin on Thu Mar 31, 2011 6:54 pm

    GarryB wrote:
    multi-dimensional digital 3D-frequency-time and polarisation aggregate signal processing;

    Well if we break it down... a multi dimensional digital 3D frequency-time and polarisation aggregate signal processing... it is talking about processing data taking into account the fact that the space being scanned is 3 dimensions but also allowing for the different results the different signal frequencies should be producing and separating out the difference in performance to see if something is hiding in the airspace.

    Sounds like they are looking for stealth objects, or objects in extreme jamming environments.

    If what you say is true then its quite interesting I should say, Thanks for your analysis.

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    Re: Russian Radar systems

    Post  Austin on Thu Mar 31, 2011 6:57 pm

    medo wrote:I read, that Russian army will create arctic brigade. Do they also plan to build radar and air defense in arctic region or it will be in hands of AWACS planes and fighter planes like Mig-31?

    Putin and Medvedev has stated many times before that they want to resolve Arctic issue peacefully so I do not see any defense build up happening at Arctic and it doesnt make sense as well , there is enough out there to make every one happy and Russia side of arctic has huge gas reserves so there is nothing to gain as they have what they want.

    Most of the Arctic brigade are posturing and more like a quick reaction team to show russian presence.

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    Re: Russian Radar systems

    Post  GarryB on Fri Apr 01, 2011 3:56 am

    I read, that Russian army will create arctic brigade. Do they also plan
    to build radar and air defense in arctic region or it will be in hands
    of AWACS planes and fighter planes like Mig-31?

    I think this will be much like their mountain brigades... these will simply be units that are specially trained for specific conditions of operations.

    The Russian forces have been split into 4 military districts... Western, Central, and Eastern districts have Arctic regions that will need Arctic trained brigades.
    These brigades will likely have their own organic air defence components, but the responsibility for air defence in Russia seems to be something new with a combination of the air defence forces of the Air Force (ie the PVO) together with the relatively new Space Forces, which operates and manages Russias satellites.
    I don't know whether this new air and space defence org will be split up and subordinated to the four military districts, but the description of being responsible for the air above Russia from ground level out into space to detect and track and deal with all threats... cruise missiles to ballistic missiles and everything in between seem to suggest the use of ground based radar, airborne assets like AWACS, and satellite based assets. Their job is to also deal with such threats using SAMs, interceptor aircraft (Mig-31s and Flankers) and presumably ABM systems like the Moscow system and soon the S-400/-500 combination. They will also likely share their information with air and ground and naval forces.

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    Russian Radar systems

    Post  Stealthflanker on Sun Apr 24, 2011 1:48 pm

    Greetings Very Happy

    well i think it's already clear from the title that i'm asking about the status of N001 PERO PESA RADAR , made by GRPZ "Ryazan", which said will be a "radical" upgrade to N001 family, by replacing the early 1,075m Twist Cassergainian Antenna with a reflective phased array..like this



    well as far as i heard.. from ausairpower and Overscan's Russian avionics guide on secret projects forum, 2 prototypes were built and one is sent to China for evaluation .. However after that..the project seems to be "gone" without a clue .

    So anybody know the status of the program now ? is it cancelled ? or perhaps it's made it to production , as an upgrade pack for N001 RADAR ?

    Err and another question but related.. is N001VEP on Su-30MK2 uses the PERO antenna or it's still use twist cassergain like its sibling the N001VE ?

    well thanks in advance for answer

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    Re: Russian Radar systems

    Post  SerbNationalist on Tue May 03, 2011 2:38 am

    I have a question that is partially related to all this, I see there was a lot of talk about radars, systems and guidance methods, jamming and similar so this question kinda correlates to that.
    DO Buk's (M2E and probably M3), S-300PMU2 Favorit's and Pantsyrs have any chance against AGM-88E Advanced Anti- Radiation Guided Missile (AARGM)? It supposedly negates evading this advanced HARM by switching the radar off, would modern systems like Pantsyr, Buk, S-300/400 be able to still have effect against platforms firing these and would they be able to fool them? Because supposedly they can't be fooled by decoys, countermeasures and turning off radars...so there's not much left. I know that it's not always what they say in the cataloge, but still this advanced HARM looks quite scary!

    Also can adjustments like ARH (Active radar homing) and Anti Radiation Seekers from Technical note #3 and #4 (BOTH)be fitted on a Buk missile (key word both, not just one of those) and S-300/400 missile? From this link: http://www.ausairpower.net/APA-Legacy-SAM-Upgrades.html#mozTocId532833

    And does anyone know the cost of one Buk-M2E battery and (I doubt but thought to ask) one Buk-M3 battery (at least what is it going to be, close to what, not a direct figure)? By battery I mean,except Radar, Mobile Controle Center, Launchers with radars and reloaders with missiles, also all those support, repair vehicles and spare parts and whatever goes into a fully functional and autonomous battery. Thank you in advance! Very Happy

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    Re: Russian Radar systems

    Post  GarryB on Tue May 03, 2011 3:03 am

    The current model and indeed previous model Russian SAMs defeat HARM in many ways... mobility is one, backup guidance options that don't involve radar is another, but the primary defence against HARM is range for the S-300 etc systems because most can shoot down the platform carrying HARM before it gets to a range where it can fire a HARM missile, and also for missiles from Pantsir-S1, TOR, BUK. S-300, S-300V, and S-400 the basic ability to shoot down the HARM missile itself in flight protects them from a HARM like attack.

    Major SAM batteries will have a mix of long range SAMs with shorter range SAMs like Pantsir and TOR that will shoot down HARM and JDAM and other threats to the large SAM system. There is also jammers and of course decoy radar systems connected to the primary radars at the SAM site that operate in the same radar frequencies as the primary radar and actually can be powered from the same source that are designed to draw off HARM type weapons. These decoy radars are designed to be quite robust and hits and near misses from missiles really don't prevent them from emitting radiation and continuing to be a decoy. They don't need to create a coherent directional beam, nor do they need to receive that beam so short of blowing it into tiny pieces it is pretty hard to take out.

    Most radar antennas will be blown over and defeated because of their size and relative fragility... they are made light weight so they can rotate... not to withstand near misses of warheads. They also need to retain their shape to transmit and receive a radar signal that is useful.

    Once the radar is down the SAM transporter/erector/launchers (TELs) are often vulnerable to attack... for instance with the SA-6 SAM system there are 4-6 TELs and a radar vehicle that finds targets and directs missiles to those targets. Take out the radar vehicle with a HARM and you can fly in and drop dumb iron bombs and take out the TELs because they are now defenceless. The BUK replaced the KUB (SA-6) and it is a more expensive system but each TEL in the BUK system has a radar on it so using HARM to defeat the radar vehicle means you have to hit all the TELs too... and as the TELs can track HARM missiles and the later BUK missiles can defeat HARM missiles it becomes much harder to take out a BUK battery.
    The BUK can switch to optical mode and HARM is useless because there are no radar emissions it can home on.

    Old model SA-6 can be upgraded with optical guidance too... as can most SAMs.

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    Re: Russian Radar systems

    Post  Stealthflanker on Tue May 03, 2011 8:43 am

    SerbNationalist wrote:I have a question that is partially related to all this, I see there was a lot of talk about radars, systems and guidance methods, jamming and similar so this question kinda correlates to that.
    DO Buk's (M2E and probably M3), S-300PMU2 Favorit's and Pantsyrs have any chance against AGM-88E Advanced Anti- Radiation Guided Missile (AARGM)? It supposedly negates evading this advanced HARM by switching the radar off, would modern systems like Pantsyr, Buk, S-300/400 be able to still have effect against platforms firing these and would they be able to fool them? Because supposedly they can't be fooled by decoys, countermeasures and turning off radars...so there's not much left. I know that it's not always what they say in the cataloge, but still this advanced HARM looks quite scary!


    Well Pantsyr, Buk , S-300PMU-2 can kill both HARM and its carrier platform .. so there would always be a chance of survival .

    and most importantly since all systems mentioned above have Phased Array RADAR, they would be quite difficult to be picked off by ESM's , since they have low sidelobe (in order of -30 till -70 Db) , SEAD Fighters will likely to be forced to use the RADAR's Mainlobe as "aimpoint" ..however this will expose themselves , as they're already detected and perhaps illuminated .


    Also can adjustments like ARH (Active radar homing) and Anti Radiation Seekers from Technical note #3 and #4 (BOTH)be fitted on a Buk missile (key word both, not just one of those) and S-300/400 missile? From this link: http://www.ausairpower.net/APA-Legacy-SAM-Upgrades.html#mozTocId532833

    it's possible .


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    Re: Russian Radar systems

    Post  medo on Tue May 03, 2011 4:05 pm

    DO Buk's (M2E and probably M3), S-300PMU2 Favorit's and Pantsyrs have
    any chance against AGM-88E Advanced Anti- Radiation Guided Missile
    (AARGM)? It supposedly negates evading this advanced HARM by switching
    the radar off, would modern systems like Pantsyr, Buk, S-300/400 be
    able to still have effect against platforms firing these and would they
    be able to fool them? Because supposedly they can't be fooled by
    decoys, countermeasures and turning off radars...so there's not much
    left. I know that it's not always what they say in the cataloge, but
    still this advanced HARM looks quite scary!




    Of cours they have. Air sefense is not only SAM or AA guns, but a whole complex of equipment and crews. One option of modern SAMs against any anti-radar missile is mobility. Let say, Pantsir could engage targets on the move, when is out of missiles and rounds, just turn off radars and drive fast. Air defense also have specialized sensors and chaffs and flares for anti-radar missiles like Gazetchik in Russian PVO. Next option is specialized false emmiter of radar, which is placed on proper distance and anti-radar missile will lock on false emmiter. Next are decoys and at last modern SAMs and AA guns could shot down anti-radar missiles. Their speed and RCS is inside their capabilities. Pantsir and Tor are specially designed to engage anti-radar missiles, bombs and ASMs.

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    Re: Russian Radar systems

    Post  SerbNationalist on Tue May 03, 2011 6:20 pm

    Thank you for the replies, I was just asking around, because I found out about this new HARM missile, it's actually called AARGM, it looks really scary, it has some new tracking system that is no longer just passive, actually it's new sensors kinda remind me of Pantsyrs a little bit, that's why I asked. Thank you anyway! And any ideas on the prices of Buk-M2e and M3?

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    Re: Russian Radar systems

    Post  GarryB on Wed May 04, 2011 3:04 am

    The only ARM with a proven record of being scary is ALARM and even that can be shot down.

    It is 1,000 times more effective than HARM which in terms of hitting targets pretty mediocre... in the Kosovo conflict hundreds were fired with no effect.

    With modern Russian missiles even the ALARM would be ineffective except in enormous numbers to overwhelm the systems.

    The original HARM was pretty pathetic and just flew towards a radar emission till impact, or more commonly... till the radar turned off and the HARM hit the ground.

    Even the AS-11 (Kh-58) was far more sophisticated with an INS and targeting pod so that the launch aircraft actually worked out the physical location of the target radar before the missile was launched so that even if the radar was turned off the missile would continue to fly towards the radars last known location and with a 150kg HE warhead even a near miss could blow over the antenna of a large radar system.

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    Re: Russian Radar systems

    Post  SerbNationalist on Wed May 04, 2011 1:18 pm

    GarryB wrote:The only ARM with a proven record of being scary is ALARM and even that can be shot down.

    It is 1,000 times more effective than HARM which in terms of hitting targets pretty mediocre... in the Kosovo conflict hundreds were fired with no effect.

    With modern Russian missiles even the ALARM would be ineffective except in enormous numbers to overwhelm the systems.

    The original HARM was pretty pathetic and just flew towards a radar emission till impact, or more commonly... till the radar turned off and the HARM hit the ground.

    Even the AS-11 (Kh-58) was far more sophisticated with an INS and targeting pod so that the launch aircraft actually worked out the physical location of the target radar before the missile was launched so that even if the radar was turned off the missile would continue to fly towards the radars last known location and with a 150kg HE warhead even a near miss could blow over the antenna of a large radar system.

    Oh trust me I know about HARM's and ALARM's we f***ed those easily, I even know how they did it, some logs, some decoys (not even high tech, simple ones) and turn off the radar. It's just that this new stuff lucks kinda more advanced, because we all know that best defense against that type of missile was just to turn off your radar...now that doesn't help, it tracks it anyway, didn't read how exactly! But I guess that Buk wich can turn off the radar and mover right away should have no problems, eve without shooting it down! Not to mention some new decoy radars and similar stuff, but thank you for the clarification and info anyway.
    An interesting fact...they used to fire between 20-30 anti-radar missiles (HARM or ALARM) every night in 1999, their hit success rate, even counting decoy radars and old radars that we left on just to turn their attention was less than 3%! So I guess even with this new one they can't be that good if Serbia dealt with such a force back then with small and old equipment!

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    Re: Russian Radar systems

    Post  GarryB on Thu May 05, 2011 2:54 am

    HARM is not total rubbish, the problem is that its role was SEAD, or suppression of enemy air defence systems.

    The problem there is that if a system has other means of detecting and engaging enemy aircraft then HARM becomes useless.

    For instance the use of BUK by Georgia in 2008 was successful because they were tied into the NATO AD network and were supplied with air target information from Turkey, so the BUK battery could operate in radar and radio silence and engage targets in optical mode.

    My understanding of the new HARMs is that they use the signal from the emitting radar to calculate the position of the radar which they store in an inertial navigation system so that even if the radar turns off the missile will fly towards the last emitting location of the radar.

    Some large radars simply cannot be moved in time and will be hit anyway.

    The solution for those radars is a SAM to shoot down not just the HARMs but also the launch platforms.

    The BMP-3 has a 100mm laser beam riding anti armour missile it can fire through its main gun, which allows it to fire while moving as long as a clear line of sight to the target can be maintained.
    They are developing new 57mm gun ammo that is semi active laser homing that should also be able to be fired from a moving vehicle and with newer ammo design it should be possible to greatly extend range and performance... as a CIWS it trades rate of fire for terminal accuracy and individual round cost with greatly reduced ammo expenditure requirements for most targets.

    Needless to say 4-5 laser target markers with optical autotrackers and thermal imagers and 3-4 vehicles with a single 57mm gun with 100 odd guided shells per vehicle and 20 ready to use shells in an autoloader with a 2-3 minute autoloader reload time should protect any target from any attempt to overwhelm the target.

    Give it a big AESA radar that can track targets the size of grains of sand with 4 faces for 360 degree coverage and a battle management computer that finds the greatest threats and guides the LTMs to the most threatening targets and instead of launching 120 cruise missiles to take out an entire countries air defence (Libya) they would need to fire 120 cruise missiles at each AD node... and the cost difference between a long range cruise missile and a 57mm laser guided shell would mean most countries should be OK. Especially if you have a few Igla-S units located 10km away from the HQ you are defending that receive advanced warning of the incoming threat so they know where to look and are ready to fire at the incoming missile.
    A Pantsir-S1 battery could also be located at important targets and engage all sorts of threats too.
    The 57mm gun armed vehicles however have the advantage of being able to engage multiple targets at once and with a high rate of fire and large ammo store of available rounds.

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    Re: Russian Radar systems

    Post  SerbNationalist on Thu May 05, 2011 4:46 pm

    Tell me Garry, is Buk equipped with an AESA radar, or if it isn't, can it be equipped? And by Buk I mean do TELARS have it, I know that it can be used as a surveillance radar! And tell me what is the difference between PESA and AESA, which is better? Sorry for the question but trying to learn that stuff, am really interested in it.

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    Re: Russian Radar systems

    Post  Austin on Thu May 05, 2011 7:09 pm

    GarryB wrote:For instance the use of BUK by Georgia in 2008 was successful because they were tied into the NATO AD network and were supplied with air target information from Turkey, so the BUK battery could operate in radar and radio silence and engage targets in optical mode.

    Interesting , Source ?

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