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    UFOs & Extraterrestrial Life

    starman
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    Post  starman on Wed Aug 07, 2019 12:47 pm

    nomadski wrote:
    How many witnesses report aliens dismembering?


    At least three I recall off the top of my head.

    But a lot of reports are of black silent helicopters, associated with this incidents. And what do they tell people? Oh, sorry, but your steak dinner, contains some strontium? You are getting cancer! So a secret programme is needed. One that allows collection on site. To identify contaminated areas accurately.

    Animal mutilations often involve just draining of blood or removal of eyes, lips, etc not eaten by humans anyway. Poisoning of food is a issue for the Food and Drug administration not the dept of defense. On a number of occasions potentially dangerous food and drugs were banned, after testing.

    Regards, fish like aliens. Again number of reported cases of greys, is far greater. This can not be product of hallucinations or hypnogogic dreams. As there would be wide variation. But this standard view is either true or false. Either victims remember correctly. Or it is a deceptive memory implanted. I have a logical problem with fish. A fish can never solve a rubic cube problem. I think any self respecting alien, should be able to play chess!

    Some of the reported ET types may be genuine beings but many, like insectoids, are almost certainly phony.
    nomadski
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    Post  nomadski on Sat Aug 10, 2019 9:53 pm


    https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.space.com/amp/33306-how-does-the-universe-expand-faster-than-light.html



    Something. KVS said about space being able to be warped, allowing faster than light travel, inside a warp bubble. Recently scientists observed distant Galaxies retreating faster than speed of light from us. The reason given was that although the Galaxies themselves were not retreating faster than light. But the space between them was streaching by Gravity. So the net effect was a speed faster than light. So a warp device could shorten distances between two points in space.

    As regards shape of any EBE . I think that they would be subject to similar rules of development on their planet. They need efficient locomotion. To avoid predators. So no snails. They need to be upright, to find food and again avoid predators. So no snakes. They need to make tools. And need hands. So no birds or fish. They need binocular vision on top of their body to see and avoid other predators and to Hunt efficiently. So no goats. They need a big brain on top of their body. So they don't  damage their brain, every time, they sit down. So you get something that has to look like us. On planet Earth. All highly intelligent, tool using forms, were humanoid. The Neanderthals. The Dinosovans , the pigmy people of South East Asia.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archaic_humans
    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB on Sun Aug 11, 2019 8:01 am

    But does it?

    The octopus has multiple brains... a central brain and then other brains that control each tentacle.

    Equally with the eyes... we are hunters so we have eyes at the front of our heads so the distance to targets can be estimated by our binocular vision, but then spiders are also hunters, but also prey from other creatures so they have eyes at the front for hunting but also eyes all around their heads which are also practically their upper bodies that detect movement and threats 360 degrees.

    Having a head that can turn around so the limited field of view could be compensated but turning ones head and increasing its vision could just as easily have been eyes in our chests and backs.

    Our brains are in our heads because our primary senses like sight and hearing and taste and smell are also there so putting the brain there means faster processing of information.

    our eyes gather a very detailed view of the world which is slow to process... by the time we have seen the fly and calculated its distance... it takes time... when we swing our hand to crush the fly, the fly flys away before we see it move because our vision updates so slowly... the fly on the other hand has multiple light sensors in its eye but only sees the most basic of things... it sees you hand coming and processes that information so fast it has plenty of time to get airborne and fly away to avoid the attack.

    But... the human brain has intelligence, so after it misses the fly a few times it realises the fly is somehow too fast, so instead of slapping down on the surface the fly is on to try to kill it... the smart human anticipates the fly will take off and climb to 10-15 cms above where it currently is when it detects their moving hand.

    It is like shooting a rabbit on the run... shoot where it is now and you miss... aim where it is likely to be and you get it most of the time.

    Instead of slapping down on the fly swing your hand 10-15cm above where the fly currently is and cup your hand to catch it... with a bit of practise you will get the fly most of the time.

    Talk about intelligent though... I will often then let the fly escape because I open my hand expecting to have missed the fly and the little bugger then flys away...

    Flys and Spiders use fixed eyes to see in most directions, while humans and a lot of other animals use heads to allow greater fields of vision with just two sets of eyes.

    Humans could just as easily have had two hunting eyes like the two we have now and perhaps 4 to 6 more basic eyes in the sides and rear of our heads to warn of threats from other directions.

    Even with the eyes we have the centre of your vision sees detail... anything outside the centre of your vision you can see basic features like colour and shape but to read something normally you need to centre it in your vision.

    You field of view outside that centre of vision is optimised to detect movement which draws you eyes to centre on what is moving so you can identify it properly.

    That less focussed area of your eye is also better at seeing at night, which just goes to show we are not night predators.

    We have a head, with two eyes in the front like a predator, and a large brain also in our heads, and arms and legs and hands, but to become an advanced life form that is intelligent you don't need the same mixture... depending on the addons tentacles can be as useful as hands sometimes, and having one big brain is not necessarily better than having multiple brains... a big thinking brain with small brains for basic motor control... imagine an 8 armed creature evolved from an octopus with 9 brains... one main brain and then one brain for each arm... but at the end of the arm were mini tentacles like fingers... the big brain coordinated everything and there were say 6 big eyes on the head... stereo vision each covering 120 degrees, plus a single basic movement detection eye above each hand so each hand could act independently with its own brain and eye to control it.

    In a way it would almost be working like a collective with a shared mouth and stomach that each of the arms could move food into, with the main head and brain directing the entire creature to shelter or food or away from predators when needed.

    It could learn to use tools and make itself protective clothing or armour from the shells of its food and seaweed... etc etc.

    Equally insects could certainly evolve and develop... many of our advanced composite materials were designed and made by spiders and also various insects...

    How long before humans evolve or just start adding mechanical parts to ourselves... an extra set of arms, or legs to help us move faster or further or carry more weight, or improved vision or hearing, the options are enormous.

    Even right now you could make a helmet that has cameras all around it including night vision cameras, with large LCD displays in front of your eyes showing what is behind you or in front of you 24/7... and also connecting you to the internet or cellphone... telling you the weather and temperature, or the racing results...
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    Post  starman on Tue Aug 13, 2019 5:46 pm

    nomadski wrote:
    As regards shape of any EBE . I think that they would be subject to similar rules of development on their planet.

    Of course and the outcome would probably be the same, specially since earthlike conditions appear to be a prerequisite for life.

    They need to be upright, to find food and again avoid predators.

    They need to be erect to free the hands for work.

    They need to make tools. And need hands. So no birds or fish........ So you get something that has to look like us.

    I incline toward that view.
    There have been many examples of homoplasy in our world so it wouldn't be surprising if life on a distant but earthlike world gave rise to basically the same thing.
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    Post  nomadski on Wed Aug 14, 2019 10:28 pm

    They do say that God  made man  in his image. Hawking, in his book, a brief history of time, did say that the mathematical value of an atomic property, was so accurately fixed, that it could not have happened by accident. And that, if this value was even slightly different, that our universe, together with possibility of life, would not exist.

    Space travel is difficult. Not just because we need fast speeds. But because space is very hazardous environment. Take for example the damage caused by micrometeorites or larger rocks. If we travel through vast distances in space, at whatever speed, it becomes impossible to avoid every particle. Even if you are highly advanced. One way of avoiding being destroyed, is vibrating the atoms in spacecraft, to allow particles to pass through.

    You would in effect be able to pass through solid matter. And you would need to. It has been reported that UFO have this ability. To pass through solid matter. Dive straight into ocean at high speed. Or travel at very fast speed through water. Abductees seem to pass through solid walls.

    Scientists recently reported that this phenomenon is possible. And they are trying to duplicate it. For space travel at very high speed, this ability is a must.

    https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/how-do-you-shield-astronauts-and-satellites-from-deadly-micrometeorites-3911799/

    In one case, an abductees reportedly, had a micrometeorite extracted from their body. But how could this happen on Earth?  Where all small micrometeorite burn up in atmosphere?

    https://www.quora.com/Can-vibrating-something-at-high-frequency-allow-something-else-to-pass-through-it



    https://science.howstuffworks.com/space/aliens-ufos/is-there-finally-proof-alien-implants-in-human-bodies.htm
    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB on Thu Aug 15, 2019 4:20 am

    They do say that God made man in his image. Hawking, in his book, a brief history of time, did say that the mathematical value of an atomic property, was so accurately fixed, that it could not have happened by accident. And that, if this value was even slightly different, that our universe, together with possibility of life, would not exist.

    Yeah, they have worked out that there needed to be a lot of things go a particular way for us to exist, which to some people means there must be a guiding hand to make it happen... the earth has been here 4.5 billion years and this universe is at least 13 billion years old... life on our planet is really trial and error... if it was creation it would not have taken so long.

    Yes... what we see now is the result of a series of unusual events and environments, but perhaps that is also the reason the universe does not seem to be teeming with life on every rock and planet.

    It was very lucky for us to be here but think of all the people who aren't here... either dead or never been born... all the millions of different species that became extinct because they weren't right or just bad luck. Their might have been a mutation where a human had super intellect and ended up killing themselves because everyone else around them was so stupid... or they were building something ahead of their time and were killed making it.

    There might be 10,000 other planets in this galaxy where creatures are thinking the same things we are, or they might be thinking something totally different.
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    Post  kvs on Thu Aug 15, 2019 5:57 am

    One has to be careful with the super fine tuning BS that is spewed by the physics community. It mostly originates in the
    particle physics and cosmology branches where they refuse to consider the possibility that their theories are wrong. These
    fields have a lot of unscientific characteristics and resemble cults. This is not surprising since these branches of physics
    have poor levels of observational constraint and almost anything goes in terms of theory.

    Aside from the obvious fact that maybe we have life because we happen to be in a certain parameter regime and that says nothing
    about the existence of any God or gods, the super fine tuning can be an artifact of broken theories. Take the cosmological constant
    problem. Supposedly it is 10^120 times too large compared to what the structure of the universe tells us, if you believe in zero point energy.
    To resolve this conundrum would require simply magical renormalization of existing field theories, i.e. simply absurd levels of fine tuning
    would be required. The wrinkle is that zero point energy is a crock of nonsense resulting from treating time as a classical deterministic
    parameter in the quantum mechanics advanced about 100 years ago. Recent work has finally addressed this BS and a proper theoretical
    approach has been adopted:

    https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0550321314001400

    It is rather shocking that it has taken a century to do it right. One of the reasons for this is the loopy Copenhagen philosophy interpretation
    of quantum mechanics (QM). Where magical observers collapse wave functions and other nonsense. In the real world there is no external
    observer collapsing a wave function. There is only quantum entanglement and no observer is every fully independent of an observed or
    even non observed system. Reality is quantum entangled. The fallout of a proper treatment of time as a fully quantized field is that
    the zero point energy disappears and so does the cosmological constant problem. How many other such problems and absurd fine tuning
    are due to physics fundamentals being treated in the wrong way? Another excellent result from doing time right in QM is that you get
    rid of the dark energy contrivance in cosmology. But perhaps the best part of this new approach is that it opens up the door for getting
    a quantum theory of gravity which still eludes the scientific community to this day (string theory has pretty much failed). It does appear
    that the Wheeler-DeWitt equation is more fundamental than the Schroedinger equation.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wheeler%E2%80%93DeWitt_equation

    We do live in interesting times in terms of theoretical innovation. But the adoption of this innovation is suppressed by old guard reactionaries
    who have invested their lives into peddling broken theories. Just read any popular science coverage of particle physics and cosmology.
    You would think that the existing theories in these fields are unquestionable when in fact, they are speculative voodoo.



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    Post  starman on Thu Aug 15, 2019 2:47 pm

    nomadski wrote:They do say that God  made man  in his image.

    Invoking a god who says "presto" is just an admission of ignorance, a stopgap pending real or rational explanations.


    Hawking, in his book, a brief history of time, did say that the mathematical value of an atomic property, was so accurately fixed, that it could not have happened by accident.

    No, for many years it has been noted that just like our Earth is habitable by a lucky accident (whereas the overwhelming majority of planets aren't) our Universe could similarly be very lucky to be habitable whereas trillions of others aren't.


    And that, if this value was even slightly different, that our universe, together with possibility of life, would not exist.

    This claim was also refuted some time ago. See e.g. The Fallacy of Fine Tuning. The author considers the above "multiverse" explanation possible but shows that some variation in the properties of the Universe would not render it uninhabitable. Everything doesn't have to be precisely as it is for life to arise.
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    Post  nomadski on Thu Aug 15, 2019 2:51 pm

    @ KVS

    I did not fully believe in God. Sure, at school, we were told  about God. So one night , I was walking alone , on a very windy night, next to the sea. I was upset with my life. Unhappy. I had never addressed. God. Never prayed.  Yet I  turned my head up, skyward. I swore at God , cursed him, and asked, why he had made my life difficult. Why was he trying to drown me, with the giant waves, hitting the shore?  When all I was doing, was trying to cheer myself up  and go and eat at a restaurant nearby. I challenged God to show himself to me, if he really existed ! Or kill me, where I stood ! I was walking alone that night. I went to the restaurant. On the way back , at exactly the same spot, I had cursed God. I had an accident. That nearly killed me! Since then, I have thought about the rare coincidence. As to be so unlikely, that it could not be by accident !  I have also stopped cursing God . I know how lucky I am to be here. Creationist idea is the product of countless millenia of human observation and reasoning. It provides the best explanation by far, of any scientific theories so far. It is the best scientic theory. Lacking a formal quantifiable mathematical format.

    It looks like Earth like planets can be common in the universe. I wonder when we can have the means to observe their Atmospheres for signs of life. Or may even observe signals or radiation. Perhaps with an array of space based telescopes.

    https://en.farsnews.com/newstext.aspx?nn=13980524000101
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    Post  starman on Thu Aug 15, 2019 5:36 pm

    nomadski wrote:As to be so unlikely, that it could not be by accident !

    Fallacy. It's very unlikely that any given planet will be habitable like ours.

    Creationist idea is the product of countless millenia of human observation and reasoning.

    No, it's the reaction of diehard ignorance to better explanations.

    It provides the best explanation by far, of any scientific theories so far. It is the best scientic theory.

    Laughing Pro biologists would beg to differ.

    It looks like Earth like planets can be common in the universe.

    Not relative to total # of planets.

    I wonder when we can have the means to observe their Atmospheres for signs of life.

    In coming years spectroscopic studies may tell us a lot.
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    Post  GarryB on Fri Aug 16, 2019 6:05 am

    It provides the best explanation by far, of any scientific theories so far. It is the best scientic theory. Lacking a formal quantifiable mathematical format.

    No, it provides no explanation at all.

    For a long time the sun came up every day because it was the will of the sun god.

    Such an explaination would be fine for children because it does not matter whether they really know why or not, and having gods means you can control them by saying god will be mad if you don't do this or that... so it is more about control than useful information.

    Imagine going to the moon thinking god is responsible for everything good and everything bad is just a test to see if you are faithful...

    If there is a god and they really respond to everyone who asks them to then why piss around with the concept of faith... you would not trust a stranger until they have proven they are trustworthy beyond any doubt.

    Why would you trust a god you have never seen and can never see, yet is everywhere and can see all and knows all your secrets and thoughts?

    More importantly if fire burns because god makes it burn and water drowns because he makes it drown living things not equipped to live in the sea then everything becomes gods fault... but then supposedly god gave us free will which means any problems that exist on this planet are our fault... but that is critical... if we have free will then it is our fault so why do we need to keep getting favour with this god that put us on this planet with all these loonies with no direct personal guidance... you have to rely on word of mouth from other people who have also been given free will and can lie and cheat and steal if they so choose.

    I think the threats of eternal damnation are extreme for not believing other humans who are fallible and also who could be lying for their own ends.

    If god is everywhere and all powerful how hard would it be to just appear to each of us and tell us unequivically... I am god, and the closest to the truth is religion xyz which you should follow to have a long and healthy life.

    For an all powerful god that is everywhere and knows everything how hard would that be?

    The claims that you need faith, are to hide the lack of proof.

    Religion is great for tribes to bind the tribe together and the rituals about not interbreeding are sound and sensible, but some of the crap there is just arbitrary and clearly designed to create a power base where someone doesn't have to get the harvest in, or fight in wars or other advantages over their fellow man.

    Religion provides morality... which is clearly absent in modern western culture, but what it does not provide is useful stuff like science does.

    Something that has to be taken on faith and cannot be tested is worse than useless.
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    Post  kvs on Fri Aug 16, 2019 3:49 pm

    Religion and its shamanic precursor are all about power and control. Thus they are dirty and immoral. History is swimming in the blood
    unleashed by religion. The crusades. The extermination of pagans around the world (this includes Russia after the adoption of
    Christianity). The burning at the stake of truth tellers (Giordano Bruno) and the historical atrocity known as the inquisition.
    The high priests of religion have always been in bed with the kings and tyrants. And they have made grotesque and blasphemous
    interpretations of holy books to justify slavery and genocide (for example the teaching that New World aboriginals did not have
    souls because they weren't Christians (or more accurately Catholics since Catholics thought Orthodox Christians were not Christians)).

    The whole construct of going to sermon on Sundays is about indoctrination. Some clown is spinning his and his bosses' interpretation
    of the Bible and telling you how to think. But the holy books themselves are a crock since they are obviously the product of the
    era in which the humans who wrote them lived: for Christianity and Islam the holy books are the products of goat herders and reflect
    their peculiar understanding of the world. Yet today we are supposed to treat these goat herder screeds like God's word. As noted
    by Garry, why does God need ignorant, fallible humans to be his agents? God could easily write any number of holy books composed of
    immutable minerals and scatter then in the lithosphere for us to dig up during our mining activity. And God could ensure that we
    understood the language of those holy books by encoding it in our DNA. For an omnipotent and omniscient entity, God sure does not
    act like one.

    And the whole crock about this life being a test to get into the after life is BS as well:

    1) it is sadistic. I have seen some Central American bishop spout off that this life is temporal and any suffering is not important
    compared to the everlasting afterlife. Sounds like a great ploy to justify the exploitation of the masses by the 1%. The "give
    Caesar what is Casar's" BS line is the same. Sorry but Caesar's gold coins are my property after I earn them. So why the f*ck would
    they be still his and why would I be obliged to give them back to him.

    2) it is inane. The notion of some harp strumming afterlife lasting forever is obvious nonsense. Humans cannot just have good times
    and joy. They need pain and misery to balance. There was an interesting fiction piece on US TV from the 1970s where heaven and
    hell were cast as the same room. For some the room was Hell, for others it was Heaven.

    God and gods are the creation of man. Idealizations and pacifiers. An example of how our intelligence can also make us weak since we
    know too much about reality and too little to do something about it and make our lives better. Animals don't need shrines and deities
    and that is not a sign of their inferiority.

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    Post  nomadski on Fri Aug 16, 2019 4:08 pm


    @ KVS & GarryB

    This discussion is interesting. But I would like to get back to our search for aliens. It looks like they can now observe the atmosphere of exoplanets directly. We have only recently become a technological civilization. What are aliens capable of , if they are tens of thousands of years ahead of us.!

    https://youtu.be/nYNGspsdOm4
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    Post  starman Yesterday at 10:54 am

    kvs wrote:
    But the holy books themselves are a crock since they are obviously the product of their peculiar understanding of the world.

    Certainly the gospels are the work of utter ignoramuses compared to current knowledge. But as Ehrman and others note, they were not written by the original disciples, who were ignorant peasants/fishermen in Palestine. They were written by educated Greek speaking christians in urban areas, decades after christ.
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    Post  starman Yesterday at 3:11 pm

    nomadski wrote:
    We have only recently become a technological civilization. What are aliens capable of , if they are tens of thousands of years ahead of us.!

    Maybe even more--hundreds of thousands, or millions. Or a billion or more, IF some Population II stars have earthlike planets.
    UFO reports give a good idea of what they're capable of, which is virtually everything.
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    Post  nomadski Yesterday at 7:21 pm


    Let's assume that these reports are true. Then how far advanced are they? But first would a caveman recognise what a motorcar is? No. There is no frame of reference. Would someone from victorian England recognise what a car is? Yes. It is a horseless carriage. So if advanced technology is too advanced, then it becomes unrecognisable.

    In this cases, their technology is not unrecognisable to us. In fact for many of their abilities, we have theoretical explanations or even practical applications. So they can not be millions of years ahead. Technologically. But perhaps hundreds or thousands of years ahead.

    Also, technological advances do not increase exponentially. It is a curve that flattens out. With fewer discoveries and inventions, as time passes. So they could be millions of years ahead historically or socially. Do you know anything about these recent fast radio bursts? And what their source is? I think they they are called FRB or FRP for short.
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    Post  GarryB Today at 5:54 am

    Another explanation is that in however thousands or millions of years in the future, humans develop time travel and can come back to observe certain things in strictly controlled situations perhaps... maybe time travel is banned because of the potential damage it could do to their civilisation, but say they need human dna or animal dna from this time period to solve some problem or issue.

    These grays might be what humans evolve in to over a long period of time.

    It is of course hard to speculate about the future... back in the 1980s if you had told me everyone would have a phone with a camera attached I would have wondered why you would think anyone would be so important as to need a phone with them all the time let alone a camera... only people on holiday carry cameras with them.

    I see a school in Russia was thinking of banning cellphones for children in class because they are distracting... the parents protested because they needed to be able to communicate with their children in an "emergency".

    When I was at school if my parents needed to tell me something they phoned the school office and passed on a message... but it almost never happened.

    Pathetic.

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