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    UFOs & Extraterrestrial Life

    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB on Tue Aug 20, 2019 4:43 am

    Sorry to go back off topic, but religion creates order and structure where there was none, but like anything it is vulnerable to abuse and misuse... I see religion as a personal thing you shouldn't talk about unless asked, and you should not try to sway the beliefs of others to match yours... each person needs to make those decisions for themselves.

    They say there are no athiests in foxholes or old folks homes, but the person saying that is generally trying to insinuate that fear creates and supports religion, which is probably the worst way to advertise it.

    Faith can give hope... and even if it is false hope it can bring comfort... what do you say to your dying 84 year old mother who has already lost her husband and some of her children... I am an athiest... but I still tell her when she goes she will be with lost family and friends... and even old pets... even if it is a total lie it is a nice lie and a lie that makes death easier to accept and live with the knowledge that that is where we are all going.

    Anyway... enough about religion... we certanly don't know enough about dreams or the universe or life and death to make any definitive statements about it either way.
    starman
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    Post  starman on Tue Aug 20, 2019 2:32 pm

    GarryB wrote:
    Faith can give hope... and even if it is false hope it can bring comfort... what do you say to your dying 84 year old mother who has already lost her husband and some of her children... I am an athiest... but I still tell her when she goes she will be with lost family and friends... and even old pets... even if it is a total lie it is a nice lie and a lie that makes death easier to accept and live with the knowledge that that is where we are all going.

    The crux of the problem is that science and technology haven't yet advanced to the point where they can overcome death. Future progress may see current humans with aging genes under control, or a new artificial/android humanity will replace the current one. Secularization has come far even without this; when it comes, the last vestiges of holy bs will be buried.
    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB on Wed Aug 21, 2019 5:19 am

    It is known that cells degrade over time and with every regeneration... no matter how many candles you blow out on your cake for your birthday your bones are not as old as you are... they completely regenerate over a period of about 10 years so at most your bones are 10 years old... that is what they mean by brittle bones from age... as you get older your bodys ability to regenerate degrades... and that is on purpose... we are like Apple Iphones... we have a use by date where we are designed to expire.

    Once we learn how to turn that switch off you can remain at the peak of health and fitness for as long as you want... of course eventually you might want to die... after several hundred years you might become alienated from the culture around you, though any friends and family killed in accidents will of course remain dead...

    The real question perhaps is... will genetic upgrades make robotic upgrades obsolete or vice versa... will we by synthetic like forms like Data in Star Trek, or will we be brains in a jar like Futurama... perhaps with a robot body to carry us around... why not both?

    Have the aliens that come here gone through the same dilemma... if we look at our own space exploration history... sending probes is most likely the first choice because it can be smaller and lighter and faster and you can send it to places where humans might or might not be able to survive...

    Imagine a manned space Ark sent to a star 3 light years away to land on a new extrasolar planet only to find the readings were wrong and the planet they arrived on was totally unsuitable for human habitation... Back in stasis and another 300 year voyage back to earth?

    What will life be like 600 years from now... what happens after 300 years when you arrive to the new planet and you find three years after you launched a new engine technology meant another country could get there in half the time and so while the planet is perfect, it has already all been claimed by people from a different country...

    Would be the same issues for aliens coming here... the distances are probably so great it will need to be planned well in advance and after the mission is committed to something else might screw things up...
    starman
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    Post  starman on Wed Aug 21, 2019 2:23 pm

    GarryB wrote:
    Imagine a manned space Ark sent to a star 3 light years away to land on a new extrasolar planet only to find the readings were wrong and the planet they arrived on was totally unsuitable for human habitation...

    Laughing I can't imagine sending humans or our descendants to an extrasolar planet on the basis of a single faulty mission by a nanoprobe, or a few. They'd make darn sure it was habitable before making a big commitment.


    Would be the same issues for aliens coming here... the distances are probably so great it will need to be planned well in advance and after the mission is committed to something else might screw things up...

    There have been a few reports of aliens fighting one another. But this is very rare considering the variety of reported beings, which suggests peaceful relations throughout the galaxy.
    Tsavo Lion
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    Post  Tsavo Lion on Thu Aug 22, 2019 1:58 am

    There was almost a catastrophe: the US military talked about meetings with UFOs and showed a video
    Here is my own sighting:
    Below is what I submitted to director@ufocenter.com on Wednesday, September 21, 2005 at 18:43:27 -THEY DIDN'T POST THIS FOR SOME REASON!
    100 Date: 09/20/2005
    110 Time: 19:45
    120 Duration: <3min
    130 Sighting City: Ajo
    140 Sighting State: AZ
    150 Sighting Zip: 85321
    160 Sighting County: Pima
    170 Witnesses: 1
    172 Shape: Disk
    168 Number of Craft: 1
    190 Description: I WAS SCANNING THE SKY WITH MY BINOCULARS WHEN I NOTICED AN ORANGE/YELLOW DISCK MOVING FROM NW TO SW, IT WAS BRIGHTER THAN A SATTELITE, WITH NO SOUND AND NO NAVIGATIONAL LIGHTS (I.E. GREEN, RED OR WHITE). I GRABBED MY PALM CAMCORDER AND GOT IT ON TAPE. THE OBJECT CHANGED ITS COURSE TO SOUTH NEAR THE END OF SIGHTING, AT WHICH TIME ITS GLOW FADED. ABOUT 10-15 MIN. LATER I SPOTTED WITH MY BINOCULARS A MILITARY JET (IDed BY THE WHITE BLINKING LIGHT)- FAR TO THE SOUTH FROM THE NEARBY AF RANGE AND AIR CORRIDOR USED BY THE A-10s GROUND ATTACK PLANES- FLYING ON INTERCEPTION COURSE FROM D-M AFB TOWARD THE AREA WERE THE DISC WAS LAST SEEN HEADING TO. I AM AN EXPERIENCED OBSERVER WITH 5+ YEARS IN THE U.S. NAVAL AVIATION.

    https://siriusdisclosure.com/expeditions/

    https://www.amazon.com/Project-Identification-first-scientific-phenomena/dp/0137307136/ref=sr_1_1?keywords=ufo+1st+scientific&qid=1566432173&s=books&sr=1-1

    https://www.amazon.ca/Unconventional-Flying-Objects-Scientific-Analysis/dp/1571740279/ref=cm_wl_huc_item

    http://www.tmgnow.com/repository/mars/mars4.html

    http://www.sitchin.com/water.htm


    Last edited by Tsavo Lion on Thu Aug 22, 2019 2:04 am; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : add link)
    starman
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    Post  starman on Thu Aug 22, 2019 2:26 pm

    Tsavo Lion wrote:
    There was almost a catastrophe: the US military talked about meetings with UFOs and showed a video

    Reports of this kind are almost certainly disinformation with the same agenda as many other bogus reports over the years.

    Here is my own sighting:
    Below is what I submitted to director@ufocenter.com on Wednesday, September 21, 2005 at 18:43:27 -THEY DIDN'T POST THIS FOR SOME REASON!

    Sightings like this are no doubt exciting to you or anyone who has a similar experience, but there are so many...every month or few months.
    Btw sitchin was a charlatan and so is anyone who says Phobos will come very close to Earth.
    nomadski
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    Post  nomadski on Thu Aug 22, 2019 3:50 pm

    @ KVS

    You said yourself that some physics and cosmology department is voodoo. But you believe that some other theory is not. I think universe is complex, and finding the truth needs a mind that is free of bias or overvalued ideas and is logical. A collective effort is needed, value should be given to all who contribute.  It maybe that the bigger picture needs collection of little pictures into a whole. No redicule or bias or hostility.

    @GarryB

    You say we don't know enough to say. Yet you say you know enough to say that this or that about God. I agree to some extent about religions. We know what they can do. But creationist thinking is relevant to cosmology. Again the metric and framework is reason and science.

    https://youtu.be/s2ULF5WixMM

    @Tsavolion

    Why are there so many civilian reports of sightings and few official or military sightings ? No official telescope or observatory sightings? Are these phenomenon only visible to civilians? Whatever they are. So obviously there is an effort not to publish to public. But why? If they are planet Venus or Marsh gas? It will put people at ease. No need to storm area 51. This one got out of the bag! Is it a plane? What type?

    https://youtu.be/G9D8dzl4zGk


    Last edited by nomadski on Thu Aug 22, 2019 10:05 pm; edited 1 time in total
    kvs
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    Post  kvs on Thu Aug 22, 2019 4:23 pm

    nomadski wrote:@ KVS

    You said yourself that some physics and cosmology department is voodoo. But you believe that some other theory is not. I think universe is complex, and finding the truth needs a mind that is free of bias or overvalued ideas and is logical. A collective effort is needed, value should be given to all who contribute.  It maybe that the bigger picture needs collection of little pictures into a whole. No redicule or bias or hostility.


    It is voodoo since the naive views of physicists from the 1910s and 1920s are being presented as all-time truth. No, they reflect the ignorance of the period.
    That is why I posted recent papers which have advanced understanding of physics. Anyone who insists on pushing obsolete interpretations may as well
    insist that we believe the "physics" of the 1400s. There is a clear gradient of ignorance increasing into the past. Slowly we are moving closer to the truth,
    but anyone who claims current interpretations are the ultimate truth is a witchdoctor.

    https://arxiv.org/abs/1606.08444

    Recent work on the emergence of space itself from an abstract quantum entity that does not have a spatial extent in our understanding. This is real research.
    Crap that repeats 100 year old nonsense is a waste of time. To this day GR "experts" keep using singluar (information non-conserving) transformations
    to map between coordinate systems. Back in 1916 they did not know that only diffeomorphisms could be used as valid coordinate transforms. The principle
    of general covariance does not justify using transforms that create information from nothing and destroy information since that has zero to do with GR.
    All the rubbish purporting to prove that the event horizon is a "coordinate singularity" is based on mathematical and physical ignorance. The event
    horizon is manifestly a physical singularity since all geodesics that cross it do so with a local speed of light. That is why it is an infinite red-shift surface
    for EM waves originating within it and an infinite blue-shift surface for all EM waves that propagate towards it.

    I was being taught the nonsense Copenhagen school interpretation of QM with the ridiculous, ad hoc notion that some magical observer collapses
    the wave function during measurements. This view is quaint and obsolete since we know that quantum systems are entangled. Any observer is
    just another quantum system so is entangled even before any measurement is done.

    nomadski
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    Post  nomadski on Thu Aug 22, 2019 10:45 pm

    I don't know your terminology exactly. But will respond. This entity you talk about is supposedly non - extended in our space. And even if is quantum entangled  ( is related  ) is not related to us. This does not make sense. I think this entity is extended into our space and time. But the flow of information is from particles to entity only.

    If  GR  model says  that information is not carried by particles,  then their relations are determined by  other physical factors. Does this exclude that they are quantum entangled with the entity and not each other? Why should this property be exclusive to the non- extended entity? Since the entity can have relations established through all the particles. A complex of relations.

    If information is exchanged , between particles, then it is not possible that they are destroyed. Since either they exist ( and are exchanged) or they don't.

    So you say, at surface of black hole, no quantum entanglement exists. Particles travel at speed of light. Why should they not preserve this quality. The entity relating at infinite speed with particles. From this viewpoint, all other events occur instantly, outside black hole.

    Some observer collapsing?  Either the entity as observer collapsing  ( intervening) , since entangled with particles and exchanging information therefore observer. Or particles themselves entangled and exchanging  information and observing and changing. Or both. But if flow of information to entity is outward only, then  particle as observer changing and evolving, communicating.

    You realise this is Leibniz?


    https://youtu.be/4C5pq7W5yRM
    starman
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    Post  starman on Fri Aug 23, 2019 9:05 pm

    nomadski wrote:
    But creationist thinking is relevant to cosmology.

    How many pro biologists or cosmologists are creationists?

    Why are there so many civilian reports of sightings and few official or military sightings ?

    There have been many sightings by military personnel.
    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB on Sat Aug 24, 2019 1:57 am

    Creationism means no need to investigate or learn what has happened... it is just that god did it... and then manipulation and spin, so when the bible can be interpreted to say the earth is 6 thousand years old and we work out through real science that it is rather older than that you can make shit up without ever leaving your living room... ie the universe was created with a built in history, so while the universe is only 6,000 years old it was created with fossils and a back history to go with it.... or perhaps 6,000 years back then actually meant 6 billion years or some such rubbish.

    The issue is that creationism has no value except to prop up belief in a god or gods, whereas real science delivers every day, useful things that help us and make our lives better.

    There is currently no cure for cancer but my money is on scientists and doctors working out a solution before priests and their prayers manage anything.

    Of course having said that I think Science has probably contributed to the cause of cancers with all the chemicals released into the environment... particularly pesticides and other known toxic poisons.
    starman
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    Post  starman on Sat Aug 24, 2019 10:49 am

    GarryB wrote:....so while the universe is only 6,000 years old it was created with fossils and a back history to go with it...

    In light of the fossil record just since the start of the Phanerozoic, for the world to be just 6,000 years old, there had to have been a complete faunal turnover every few years or so....How strange that "god" couldn't make up his mind for so long.... Rolling Eyes



    Of course having said that I think Science has probably contributed to the cause of cancers with all the chemicals released into the environment... particularly pesticides and other known toxic poisons.

    I think most cancer results from the mistakes of individuals, like smoking or eating carcinogenic food. Toxins like pesticides do cause harm, but more likely parkinson's disease.
    nomadski
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    Post  nomadski on Sat Aug 24, 2019 1:29 pm

    @GarryB

    Man understands the world with science of his day. His science grows as does his understanding. I found this video
    Interesting.

     https://youtu.be/_ie9musGEqQ

    https://youtu.be/_Ii-bsrHB0o

    @ starman

    Yes. True that there are some. But compared to total number of over million reported each year. A small percentage. There should be statistically more. More false positives. But then can we rely on officialdom with vested interest to lie? To hide actual tech. Or to misdirect our research into expensive anti - gravity propulsion blind alley? With photo shop? So we must look for people with no vested interest to sell books or TV programme or YouTube ratings. People who are neutral and do not gain by apparantley loosing face! More convincing this way. We must rule out hoaxes and hallucinations and religious experiences........

    I think old undoctored film or photo by civilian is one of best starting point. Some " ufologists" had recently colluded to present hoaxes to sell books and TV programme. Do you know of more reliable sources. Historical evidence that does not or can not have a religious Earthly explanation.


    https://youtu.be/NZMDQzc9XMg
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    Post  Tsavo Lion on Sat Aug 24, 2019 5:59 pm

    http://www.sitchin.com/#videos

    http://www.sitchin.com/#nyt

    https://www.amazon.com/dp/B06XWLK7RP/ref=sr_1_1?s=instant-video&ie=UTF8&qid=1493335884&sr=1-1&keywords=ufos+the+lost+evidence&_encoding=UTF8&tag=jansitchshomepag&linkCode=ur2&linkId=288dd1cc6d223f3c609fddcf4465b550&camp=1789&creative=9325
    starman
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    Post  starman on Sun Aug 25, 2019 10:53 am

    Many sightings by military personnel may never have been publicly revealed.
    I never believed that sitchin stuff.
    nomadski
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    Post  nomadski on Sun Aug 25, 2019 3:14 pm

    Well I am saying that many false positives captured by public, such as planets or ordinary aircraft or Atmospheric events should be captured and should be reported by authorities for what they are. So public are not panicked. But if they are other things, they can still keep quiet. But some authorities deliberately give disinformation. A case in Vietnam where local folklore was used by CIA, about jungle apeman, to keep locals out of area for military operation. This was done by dressing someone up in monkey coat.

    About ancient civilization. We use probabilistic reasoning. Ancient astronaut theory, never considers other Earthly explanations and their probability.  Also we must use logic. If this hypothesis of aliens coming to Earth to mine gold is examined, we find it highly improbable. Since a star travelling civilization would much more efficiently mine with machines. And building machines for mining is surely simple for technological society. So I refute this idea and translations of Sumeria.

    To find out the meaning of these texts, independent experts need to examine and confirm as authentic the evidence and translations. If tablets are translated, correctly, they will probably indicate invasions by other tribes and enslavement. From the initial photo in this link by Tsavolion about Sumeria. I can not say at all that depiction is of planets around our sun. They seem to depict a bright object, around which are some 11 small spheres, and one sphere between two figures to the right!

    Having said this, the ancients had astronomy and cosmology. They were aware of some planets in our solar system. But they only had naked eye. Yet they achieved some insights into cosmology, predicting the lifespan of universe and our sun and size of black holes ! And were  able to discover the procession of planet Earth, the slowing of Earth rotation about it's axis as related to lifespan of known universe ! All done by humans. These were Earthly achievements.
    Tsavo Lion
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    Post  Tsavo Lion on Sun Aug 25, 2019 8:38 pm

    nomadski wrote:Since a star travelling civilization would much more efficiently mine with machines. And building machines for mining is surely simple for technological society.
    if their Nibiru had a period of 3,600 years around the Sun, they didn't need to be that advanced to come here. Machines must be operated by some1. So to lighten their load, & later fight their wars, they created us by mixing their DNA with the most evolutionary advanced ape surrogate mothers.

    ..the ancients ..were aware of some planets in our solar system. But they only had naked eye.
    read his books: the astronomer priests had optical devices to observe the heavens with.
    In 1853, Sir David Brewster (1781-1868) presented a lens to the British Association for the Advancement of Science that had been found in excavations by Austen Henry Layard (1817-1894) at Nineveh (Kuyunjik, Iraq). It had been found in deposits dated around 600 BC.. http://www.ancient-wisdom.com/sumeria.htm#sciences
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Babylonian_astronomy

    The Nimrud lens: Whatever its origin, as ornament, as magnifying lens or part of a telescope, the Nimrud lens is the oldest lens in the world. Looking at it evokes mystery and wonder. It can be seen in room 55 of the British Museum, in case 9 of the Lower Mesopotamian Gallery. However unusual this object seems at first, it is not unique. In fact there are several hundred reported lenses now on record from around the ancient world. http://www.ancient-wisdom.com/optics.htm
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    Post  starman on Mon Aug 26, 2019 4:44 pm

    nomadski wrote:
    About ancient civilization. We use probabilistic reasoning. Ancient astronaut theory, never considers other Earthly explanations and their probability.  Also we must use logic. If this hypothesis of aliens coming to Earth to mine gold is examined, we find it highly improbable. Since a star travelling civilization would much more efficiently mine with machines. And building machines for mining is surely simple for technological society. So I refute this idea and translations of Sumeria.

    It makes no sense for a civilization to breed humans to mine gold here. Any spacefaring civilization could just colonize or use robots.


    Having said this, the ancients...... were aware of some planets in our solar system

    Of course, the more conspicuous 5 out of 8 (not counting Earth)--Mercury, Venus, Mars, Jupiter and Saturn.

    the procession of planet Earth,

    I think the right word is precession. It's not great achievement; just compare the sun's position on the zodiac at an equinox with its position at the same time of year a millennium or more earlier.

    ...These were Earthly achievements.

    The greatest ancient achievement was Eratosthenes' determination of the circumference/size of the Earth c 202 BCE.
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    Post  Tsavo Lion on Mon Aug 26, 2019 6:35 pm

    The greatest ancient achievement was Eratosthenes' determination of the circumference/size of the Earth c 202 BCE.
    along with the Taoism's Yin-Yang & 5 elements theories on which all of its arts, philosophy, medicine, & sciences r based on.
    https://www.asiatimes.com/2019/08/opinion/why-quantum-physics-needs-asian-philosophy/

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    Post  GarryB on Tue Aug 27, 2019 11:10 am

    Well to change tack a little, while remaining on topic there is a very deep and rather intellectual book written for NASA on the potential for radically different life forms and how to search for traces of them with robotic flights to various planets and moons inside our solar system and beyond...

    Here is a link to a copy if you want a read:

    https://www.pdfdrive.com/the-limits-of-organic-life-in-planetary-systems-d106857584.html

    (Note when you click on the above link it should open a new page and appear to check a file... when it is finished there should be a green button about the centre of the screen that says "Go to PDF"... I normally right click that button and choose the "save link as..." option to save the pdf file on my desktop to start with and then move the file if I decide to keep it.)
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    Post  nomadski on Tue Aug 27, 2019 8:05 pm

    @ Tsavolion

    Wow! I did not know that. If these lenses are good for basic astronomy. If they have found many, then they could do experimental archeology. Find out. Or they could be magnifying glass. It shows again that ancient man was modern in many ways.

    @ starman

    Precession. Thanks. That's why I think ufology should be done by scientists. Since they are best in position to determine the truth behind these things. Aliens are most likely to have visited in the past. Than a short segment of present time. Scientists are best to determine if natural historical progression could explain such advances or not.



    Last edited by nomadski on Tue Aug 27, 2019 8:11 pm; edited 1 time in total
    starman
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    Post  starman on Tue Aug 27, 2019 8:10 pm

    GarryB wrote:Well to change tack a little, while remaining on topic there is a very deep and rather intellectual book written for NASA on the potential for radically different life forms and how to search for traces of them with robotic flights to various planets and moons inside our solar system and beyond...

    Radically different lifeforms may be possible but researchers generally assume Earthlike conditions are required for habitability. It will be great if spectroscopic studies indicate the atmosphere of an exoplanet is under biological control, like ours.

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    Post  starman on Tue Aug 27, 2019 8:14 pm

    nomadski wrote:
    It shows again that ancient man was modern in many ways.

    Ancient people were inherently just as bright so it's not surprising we have some examples of sophistication, like the antithykera machine. But ancient societies just weren't ready for invention. The Romans and others put people to death for that.
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    Post  nomadski on Tue Aug 27, 2019 8:39 pm

    I saw on TV, that pyramids in Egypt could be used for stellar communication. The lower chamber under pyramid being flooded to create pressure wave against the stones of pyramid. Creating piezoelectric effect. The upper chamber being filled with zinc solution and weak hydrochloric acid producing hydrogen gas. This then being excited by electric field to produce a MASER to send signal to star! Will this work with pyramids? They said they discovered residue of acid and zinc on walls. And lower chamber showed water erosion!

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maser

    https://www.google.co.uk/search?source=hp&ei=QXllXf2nM8TYxgPwyqioDA&q=Maser+pyramids&oq=Maser+pyramids&gs_l=mobile-gws-wiz-hp.3...3288.8595..9477...1.0..0.176.1722.1j13......0....1.......5..35i39j0i67j46i67j0j46i10j0i10j46i13i275j0i13j46i13j0i22i30j33i160.yIN_Hy2sCu8#imgrc=1tbF4zhWydPjsM:

    https://youtu.be/6UxY7cxPABg
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    UFOs & Extraterrestrial Life - Page 5 Empty Re: UFOs & Extraterrestrial Life

    Post  GarryB on Wed Aug 28, 2019 9:23 am

    Radically different lifeforms may be possible but researchers generally assume Earthlike conditions are required for habitability. It will be great if spectroscopic studies indicate the atmosphere of an exoplanet is under biological control, like ours.

    But that is the point... they need to explore chemical combinations to determine if life can progress from bacterial life to more advanced forms using different chemical makeups... there is no point in scanning a totally alien planet for life if you don't know what life is or how to define it or how to identify it.

    Their might be silicon based life forms we wouldn't recognise as being alive... but then we don't even know if trees have feelings or are sentient... maybe they do but experience life over such a much longer period that their perception and reactions goes unnoticed... they might think they live for a day yet for us their day is hundreds of years... they have no eyes or ears, but for goodness sake it is only recently that scientists have discovered a previously unknown organ in the skin that is networked and deal with pain receptors.

    We need to decide are we looking for all life or just advanced life we can steal technology from.

    The fact that there was microbial life on a rock that was on the surface of mars but was blasted by an impact off the surface to spend who knows how long in space and land in antarctica suggest life is pretty abundant but that most of it is very basic no matter what the chemical make up of it is.

    There could be bacterial level life floating in the enormous atmospheres of Jupiter and Saturn and Uranus and Neptune for all we know, and perhaps it could have evolved into more complex life.... in a much denser atmosphere imagine a box jellyfish with hydrogen in its bag with tentacles hanging down thousands of metres catching algae growing in the weak sunlight trying to photosynthesise food in the upper atmosphere of Jupiter.

    They don't need to write books or have music or build space stations to be interesting...

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