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    Russian Army ATGM Thread

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    Cyrus the great

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    Re: Russian Army ATGM Thread

    Post  Cyrus the great on Mon Oct 30, 2017 4:42 am


    Question:

    Would a QWIP sensor be an affordable addition to the Kornet's guidance system? It's apparently significantly cheaper than current conventional infrared sensors and is reputed to have a longer range. The OLS-50M QWIP sensor will purportedly have a range of 70 nm, so I expect that a QWIP equipped ATGM could have a fire-and-forget function 2x in excess of the 2.5 km range limit.

    The Kornet is an incredible weapon but it's not really man-portable, so what do you guys think of creating a man-portable version similar in weight to the Metis-M (23 kg) but with a range of 5km - like the Spike LR II. The thermal and laser guidance sight on the Kornet weighs 8.7 kg and if that is paired with a 14 kg top attack missile and a 3 kg tripod, it could be a very useful man portable ATGM -- the Kornet MR. Now, the missile would have the same penetration as the Metis-M1 (950 mm) but would have a range of 5 km - due to the more advance laser guidance.

    The guidance system on the Kornet-EM -with its auto-tracker- has a range of 15 km and could be incorporated onto a tactical drone like the Orbiter 3; a drone that could act as the eyes and ears and target designator of anti-tank teams - increasing their safety.

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    Re: Russian Army ATGM Thread

    Post  Cyrus the great on Tue Oct 31, 2017 2:27 am


    I should clarify that a top attack missile like the Bill 2 is what I'm referring to when I mentioned the top attack function. The Javelin climbs too high [150 meters] so that's not ideal.
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    GarryB

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    Re: Russian Army ATGM Thread

    Post  GarryB on Tue Oct 31, 2017 6:22 am

    QWIP sensors are interesting... they are not cheap yet but have the potential to be printed like the CCD chips for digital cameras for a few dollars each.

    Add to that the processing power that is present in a modern cell phone.... there are apps that will make your face look like a dog in real time just by using the computing power of the phone to modify and process the video image in real time.

    Such capability could be used in a guided weapon without costing hundreds of thousands of dollars for each shot.

    Such a design has the potential for more exotic solutions however... fit it with folding wings so it can be lofted into the air and flown to the target area to search for targets to attack... some sort of pulse detonating engine like a buzz bomb from WWII would be noisy but cheap and simple and reliable... and the noise offers additional psychological benefits over the enemy.

    Datalink technology has improved with UAVs so a datalink back to the launcher would allow a lofted launch and low speed flight to the target from a position of cover to attack enemy positions that can be selected after launch by the operator....

    Such technology could also be added to much bigger weapons like Hermes for targets at much greater range.

    You could even include in the design the option to cue a target by pointing a laser briefly at the target so the seeker can find and hit something you are specifically after in case there are a few alternatives....

    Climbing up gives a UAV view of the target and surrounds and gives the operator a better choice of targets. A standard UAV flying around the area could be used to select a target and the missile could be launched in the direction and cued to hit a specific target but having the operator able to select the target attacked makes sense in terms of preventing friendly fire and also to allow priority targets to be dealt with first.

    A simple dumb backup fly down a laser beam option is not really useful as the Metis-M1 already fulfils that role much cheaper and in much greater numbers.

    Having lots of fire and forget ATGMs might actually be a bit chaotic....


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    Re: Russian Army ATGM Thread

    Post  Cyrus the great on Tue Oct 31, 2017 10:24 am

    GarryB wrote:QWIP sensors are interesting... they are not cheap yet but have the potential to be printed like the CCD chips for digital cameras for a few dollars each.

    Add to that the processing power that is present in a modern cell phone.... there are apps that will make your face look like a dog in real time just by using the computing power of the phone to modify and process the video image in real time.

    Such capability could be used in a guided weapon without costing hundreds of thousands of dollars for each shot.

    Such a design has the potential for more exotic solutions however... fit it with folding wings so it can be lofted into the air and flown to the target area to search for targets to attack... some sort of pulse detonating engine like a buzz bomb from WWII would be noisy but cheap and simple and reliable... and the noise offers additional psychological benefits over the enemy.

    Datalink technology has improved with UAVs so a datalink back to the launcher would allow a lofted launch and low speed flight to the target from a position of cover to attack enemy positions that can be selected after launch by the operator....

    Such technology could also be added to much bigger weapons like Hermes for targets at much greater range.

    You could even include in the design the option to cue a target by pointing a laser briefly at the target so the seeker can find and hit something you are specifically after in case there are a few alternatives....

    Climbing up gives a UAV view of the target and surrounds and gives the operator a better choice of targets.  A standard UAV flying around the area could be used to select a target and the missile could be launched in the direction and cued to hit a specific target but having the operator able to select the target attacked makes sense in terms of preventing friendly fire and also to allow priority targets to be dealt with first.

    A simple dumb backup fly down a laser beam option is not really useful as the Metis-M1 already fulfils that role much cheaper and in much greater numbers.

    Having lots of fire and forget ATGMs might actually be a bit chaotic....

    It might take a couple of years before QWIP sensors become that cheap but when it does, it will change everything. What do you think about a Kornet variant that flies 5 meters above the ground (much like the Vikhr missile) but then descends onto the tank? Could this be achieved without incurring excessive costs?

    I certainly like the idea of using tactical drones like the Orbiter 3 to observe targets 15 km away and laser designate targets with an auto-tracker. The use of the drone would dramatically remove the danger faced by anti-tank teams in the battlefield and would allow the teams to change targets mid-flight by re-directing the laser beam onto a different target -- which is precisely what the Spike missile achieves with its expensive electro-optical sight. As far as I know the Metis-m1 does not have the ability to use a top-attack function and it's wire guidance is inferior to laser guidance. The Metis-M1 should definitely remain in service due to its portability, cost-effectiveness and power but a 26 kg, top attack Kornet MR would be incredibly useful.

    It would have the same 5 km range as the Spike LR II (14 kg) and the 900-950 mm of penetration of the Metis-M1.
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    GarryB

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    Re: Russian Army ATGM Thread

    Post  GarryB on Wed Nov 01, 2017 8:13 am

    It might take a couple of years before QWIP sensors become that cheap but when it does, it will change everything.

    100 years ago if you wanted to see in the dark on a battlefield you fired a flare but that meant both sides could see.

    50 years ago and night vision equipment started to make night fighting an option.

    In 20 years time everyone will have night vision including on your civilian cell phone and so night fighting will be as normal as day fighting except against third world enemies who don't have sponsors with deep pockets.

    What do you think about a Kornet variant that flies 5 meters above the ground (much like the Vikhr missile) but then descends onto the tank? Could this be achieved without incurring excessive costs?

    AFAIK Kornet does fly above the line of sight to prevent the missile flying into bushes or fences on its way to the target.... like the Vikhr it gets a coded signal from the laser beam it rides to the target to drop down into the line of sight a kilometre or so before impact.

    It would be possible to use the autotracking software to get the missile to climb high and then dive on the target I suppose, but I susect the risk of a miss makes them not bother.

    What do you think about a Kornet variant that flies 5 meters above the ground (much like the Vikhr missile) but then descends onto the tank? Could this be achieved without incurring excessive costs?

    Metis is cheap and totally portable.... a three man team can carry the launcher and 5 ready to launch missiles, and 950mm penetration is easily enough to penetrate the side and rear of any tank in service.... and 85% of targets on the battlefield are not as well armoured as a tank.

    Kornet can penetrate 1.2m of steel armour... it does not need to sneak around the back door...

    It would have the same 5 km range as the Spike LR II (14 kg) and the 900-950 mm of penetration of the Metis-M1.

    Why?

    I think the laser beam riding Kornet at Mach 1.5 or so is a much better weapon than these new subsonic western missiles even if on paper they are fire and forget... APS systems will have little trouble in shooting them down, yet they cost so much most armies will only be able to afford a few.


    In comparison the Metis is on paper less effective but so cheap you can have thousands of systems in operation and use them against cheap targets like MG nests and sniper nests... which actually makes them vastly more capable and more useful.

    We keep hearing about 2km range sniper shots... metis can destroy a car sized vehicle from 2km with very little training for the operator.


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    Cyrus the great

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    Re: Russian Army ATGM Thread

    Post  Cyrus the great on Fri Nov 03, 2017 11:31 am


    Gary B wrote:AFAIK Kornet does fly above the line of sight to prevent the missile flying into bushes or fences on its way to the target.... like the Vikhr it gets a coded signal from the laser beam it rides to the target to drop down into the line of sight a kilometre or so before impact.

    It would be possible to use the autotracking software to get the missile to climb high and then dive on the target I suppose, but I susect the risk of a miss makes them not bother.

    The Vikhr is virtually impossible to jam and so the fact that the Kornet operates like the Vikhr makes me love it all the more. The risk of a miss for my imagined Kornet variant would be significantly lower than the Javelin if it only travels at a maximum of 5 meters above the ground. The Javelin is a laughably short-ranged and obscenely expensive missile and it climbs 150 meters in top-attack mode. If it wasn't so expensive [and slow], the Spike missile would be a great ATGM. The electro-optical sensor on the Spike missile allows it to circumvent limitations imposed by terrain - behind cover. The Kornet-D is the best ATGM and it's also very cost-effective.

    Gary B wrote:Metis is cheap and totally portable.... a three man team can carry the launcher and 5 ready to launch missiles, and 950mm penetration is easily enough to penetrate the side and rear of any tank in service.... and 85% of targets on the battlefield are not as well armoured as a tank.

    Kornet can penetrate 1.2m of steel armour... it does not need to sneak around the back door...

    The Metis-M1 is really useful and I really can't see it being phased out but I think that a truly man portable variant of the Kornet would be a great platform for more challenging targets at longer ranges. A top attack 26 kg Kornet-MR variant with a 14 kg missile would be certifiably man portable and could probably reach 5 km and achieve 900-950mm penetration. It would be even more effective if they could design this Kornet-MR to hit the tank at 70 degrees in the top-attack mode. The Spike LR II missile reaches 5.5 km and it weighs only 12.7 kg.

    I suspect that the auto-tracker device on the Kornet-D weighs about 3 kg and if included in my imagined 26 kg Kornet MR variant it would bring the total weight to 29 kg.

    Gary B wrote:Why?

    I think the laser beam riding Kornet at Mach 1.5 or so is a much better weapon than these new subsonic western missiles even if on paper they are fire and forget... APS systems will have little trouble in shooting them down, yet they cost so much most armies will only be able to afford a few.


    In comparison the Metis is on paper less effective but so cheap you can have thousands of systems in operation and use them against cheap targets like MG nests and sniper nests... which actually makes them vastly more capable and more useful.

    We keep hearing about 2km range sniper shots... metis can destroy a car sized vehicle from 2km with very little training for the operator.



    Portability is the reason I think a Kornet MR is essential and even if penetration was reduced to 900-950mm it would still be more powerful than the Javelin and the Spike missile. The Kornet has greater options and does not need to rely on the much slower, more vulnerable top-attack mode - unlike the limited, near useless Javelin missile. I see the powerful, faster Kornet as a platform for use against conventional armies while the significantly slower Western missiles can only be really effective against third world armies and insurgents.

    Is the slower speed of these new Western ATGMs a byproduct of their lofted trajectory? The Kornet (thermobaric round) has a 2 km advantage (10 km) over Western missiles, so that's perhaps another disadvantage of top-attack missiles.


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    GarryB

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    Re: Russian Army ATGM Thread

    Post  GarryB on Sat Nov 04, 2017 8:11 am

    The main reasons the Javelin and Spike are so slow is the small size and weight, but also issues with finding and locking target.

    It climbs to get above smoke and trees and other obstacles to a clear line of sight on a battlefield, whereas the Vikhr and Kornet just fly above the line of sight to prevent them flying into buildings or wires or fences or bushes on the way to the target.

    The Spike and Javelin need a clear sight of the target from lock to impact so climbing makes more sense for them.

    Their primary problem is the cost of their optics... which is destroyed in the process of using them correctly.

    With Kornet and Vikhr the optical systems are actually rather more complex and expensive but because they get reused they are also higher quality and just better.

    Think of it in terms of a Maverick missile. It has an optical port in the nose and depending on the version can have a TV or thermal sight in its nose to find and lock on to targets. It locks on before launch but goes with the missile to the target and is destroyed on impact.

    The optical system continues to track the target so if it moves it controls the missile to keep it aimed at the target so even if the target moves a lot the missile will still impact its point of aim.

    The difference with the Vikhr is that the optics are on the launch platform and instead of short wires communicating to the control surfaces to fly the missile into the target the guidance system points a coded laser beam to where the system wants the missile to hit.

    A very cheap IR sensor in the rear of the missile.... not actually that much different from the IR sensor on the remote control for your TV detects the position of the missile within the beam and manouvers the aircraft to the centre of the beam...

    [quoe]The Metis-M1 is really useful and I really can't see it being phased out but I think that a truly man portable variant of the Kornet would be a great platform for more challenging targets at longer ranges. A top attack 26 kg Kornet-MR variant with a 14 kg missile would be certifiably man portable and could probably reach 5 km and achieve 900-950mm penetration. It would be even more effective if they could design this Kornet-MR to hit the tank at 70 degrees in the top-attack mode. The Spike LR II missile reaches 5.5 km and it weighs only 12.7 kg.
    [/quote]

    Why? Is Russia running out of vehicles? Does every Russian soldier need to carry some super death weapon that will destroy everything within 5km on their back everywhere they go?

    I think the proliferation of unmanned vehicles should mean that Kornets are just fine as they are... most troops move around on a vehicle at least as big as a BRDM so being able to carry Kornets everywhere as an individual weapon is a bit excessive don't you think?

    The Kornet launcher weighs too much and 14kgs for a missile is too small for what you are proposing to do.

    I suspect that the auto-tracker device on the Kornet-D weighs about 3 kg and if included in my imagined 26 kg Kornet MR variant it would bring the total weight to 29 kg.

    If you want something man portable I would go the other way.

    Replacing the wire guidance on the Metis-M1 and therefore giving it higher flight speed is a good idea IMHO, but extending the range is not needed... they have other weapons for that.... and lets be real most troops would benefit from vehicle mobility even just to get the hell out of there when enemy artillery starts raining down after they launch their first attack... so if they will have a vehicle then use Kornet... if they don't use Metis.

    Is the slower speed of these new Western ATGMs a byproduct of their lofted trajectory? The Kornet (thermobaric round) has a 2 km advantage (10 km) over Western missiles, so that's perhaps another disadvantage of top-attack missiles.

    Different missiles have different issues.

    Most western ATGMs are slow because they drag wires.

    Javelin is slow because it is so small the capacity for high energy rocket fuel is low and also the extra time is useful to find and lock targets with optical guidance after launch.


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    ― Samuel P. Huntington, The Clash of Civilizations and the Remaking of World Order

    Cyrus the great

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    Re: Russian Army ATGM Thread

    Post  Cyrus the great on Mon Nov 06, 2017 9:22 am



    Thanks for your extensive reply, Gary

    The reason I emphasise portability is due to the need to move quickly in ambush engagements and a 63 kg platform would be a pain to move. I mis-calculated the weight of each component of the Kornet E; I was under the impression that the 1PN79-1 thermal sight included the laser designator but that's embodied in a separate system in the 1P45-1 sight-tracker. It's clear that I was wrong about the Kornet and what could reasonably be achieved with it. I believe that an improved variant of the Metis-M1 could be improved rather inexpensively to exploit its portability and lethality:


    a) This Metis-M1 variant could have its guidance updated with fiber-optics -- replacing its current wire link, thereby increasing range. It has the same potential -as the Spike LR- (12.7 kg) to have a range of 5 km

    b) It could work in concert with small, inexpensive tactical drones to provide an image of the targets in the battle space and the missile itself during its entire flight. Such tactical drones would be very useful with the inclusion of an auto-tracker similar to that of the Kornet-D only that it would use jam-resistant radio guidance

    c) It could be provided with a top-attack mode to fire safely behind cover and exploit terrain and not be constrained by it; in its direct mode it could travel 5 meters above the ground to avoid obstructions and fly 30 meters above the ground to overcome the limits of terrain. With its 900-950mm of penetration it could destroy any MBT.

    d) A soft launch ability would further increase its utility in confined spaces

    This Metis-M1 variant would retain its inexpensive guidance and all its current components while gaining new abilities and greater flexibility without being prohibitively expensive.
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    AlfaT8

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    Re: Russian Army ATGM Thread

    Post  AlfaT8 on Mon Nov 20, 2017 8:09 pm

    Sup guys, i am having a hard time finding info on the latest variant of the Konkurs, the 9N131M2-1, the only thing i found was some mention of it when IS fighter captured some.
    That one showed a manufacturing date of 2006.

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