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    Russian Army ATGM Thread

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    Militarov

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    Re: Russian Army ATGM Thread

    Post  Militarov on Fri May 13, 2016 11:54 pm



    What Jordanians presented as Kornet ATGM launcher on wheeled platform
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    Book.

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    Re: Russian Army ATGM Thread

    Post  Book. on Sun May 15, 2016 10:03 am

    B05S011 guided weapon system: Berezhok for BMP-2M ICV fighting compartment



    Purpose:
    Intended to destroy stationary and moving fielded and future main battle tanks, other armoured (IFVs, APCs) and small-size (like pillboxes and bunkers) targets, fortified assets, manpower under cover and in the open as well as aerial low-level targets flying at speeds of up 400 km/h in the day- and night-time and surface small-displacement vessels.
    The B05S011 guided weapon system (GWS) is designed for installation in turrets and fighting compartments of various combat vehicles (e.g., BMP-2M ICV (coded name Berezhok), BTR-90 APC (coded name Rostok)), tractors and other military trucks and vehicles including those of foreign origin.

    Components:
    The GWS is composed of system equipment, combat equipment, maintenance facilities, training aids and equipment:
    - B05S011.01.000 launcher;
    - VIAM.461112.001 ground-based control equipment;
    - 9M120-1 antitank guided missile;
    - 9M120-1F guided missile;
    - 9M120-1F-1 guided missile;
    - 9M120-1 PRAKT practice guided missile;
    - Group SPTA kits for GWS components;
    - 9M120 MAKET training dummy;
    - 242-EDM.000 electrical, weight and size, data recording dummy;
    - 199.PK.200 gauge.




    9K123-1 Khrizantema-S all-weather antitank missile system with 9M123 and 9M123F missiles[/b



    Purpose:
    Designed to destroy current and future main battle tanks, including those protected with explosive reactive armour (ERA), small-displacement surface vessels, low-flying aerial targets, field fortifications, manpower under cover and in the open round the clock, in benign and adverse weather, with dust and smoke obscurants on the battlefield.

    Components:
    - 9P157-2 combat vehicle (CV) (699-sb2 chassis based on BMP-3 assemblies and units);
    - 9P157-3 platoon commander's CV (699-sb2 chassis based on BMP-3 assemblies and units);
    - 9P157-4 battery commander's CV (BMP-3 chassis);
    - 9M123 antitank guided missile;
    - 9M123F antitank guided missile;
    - 9V945-1 mobile test station (for CV checks);
    - 9V990-1 mobile test station (for missile checks);
    - 9V946-1 test equipment for ammunition depots;
    - SPTA kits (individual, group, and repair);
    - 9F852 trainer;
    - 9M123Prakt practice guided missile;
    - 9M123Maket training missile;
    - 9M123Uchebn. training missile with working onboard equipment;
    - 9M123Razr. cut-away training missile;
    - 9M123FRazr. cut-away training missile;
    - 9F734 training target;
    - set of instructional charts.



    Here: http://www.kbm.ru/
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    d_taddei2

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    a few questions

    Post  d_taddei2 on Mon Jun 06, 2016 9:26 am

    hi just a few questions if anyone can answer them:

    1) how many does Russia have in service approx or even if anyone knows rough ratio on the following

    AT-4,
    AT-5,
    AT-7,
    AT-13,
    AT-14,

    2) What ATGW do the Russian airborne forces use?

    3) i presume AT-2, AT-3, and SPG-9 are now out of service? i did hear that some upgraded AT-3 were still in service.

    4) how many 9P157-2 Khrizantema-S tank destroyer(BMP-3) are in Russian service?

    5) Which platforms do Russia currently use for AT-6, i.e MT-LB, Mi-24 etc.



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    GarryB

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    Re: Russian Army ATGM Thread

    Post  GarryB on Tue Jun 07, 2016 11:31 am

    Not sure about what is in active service now, or numbers but the AT-7 and its upgrade AT-13 were specifically designed to replace old model ATGMs like AT-3.

    They were very low cost short range systems.


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    KoTeMoRe

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    Re: Russian Army ATGM Thread

    Post  KoTeMoRe on Tue Jun 07, 2016 1:22 pm

    The portable system of choice for footmobile is the Metis-M1. It's the lightest ATGM in inventory currently.
    Konkurs/Fagot systems are normally always going with the BMP's/BMD's/Trucks. Faktoria launchers complement the mounted systems.
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    George1

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    Re: Russian Army ATGM Thread

    Post  George1 on Fri Nov 18, 2016 2:00 pm

    Russia to design new-generation tank killers — Defense Ministry

    Russia currently has the Khrizantema-S and Shturm-SM antitank missile systems in service

    MOSCOW, November 19. /TASS/. Russia plans to design a new-generation tank destroyer, chief of missile forces and artillery of the Russian Armed Forces Lt. Gen. Mikhail Matveyevsky said on Friday.

    "We already plan the development of a new-generation self-propelled antitank missile system of a new generation, that follows the principle of ‘shot-forgot-hit’," Matveyevsky said.

    Russia currently has the Khrizantema-S and Shturm-SM antitank missile systems in service. They are intended to destroy moving and stationary air and ground targets, including main battle tanks, small surface ships, low-flying air targets and fortifications.


    More:
    http://tass.com/defense/913218


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    GarryB

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    Re: Russian Army ATGM Thread

    Post  GarryB on Sat Nov 19, 2016 7:47 am

    Wonder if this means Hermes, or something new but smaller than Hermes.

    Interesting they want a fire and forget missile... I guess Thermal imaging and MMW radar technology has likely moved to the point where it would be cheap enough to fit to every missile and still allowing mass production...


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    Re: Russian Army ATGM Thread

    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Sat Nov 19, 2016 2:43 pm

    GarryB wrote:Wonder if this means Hermes, or something new but smaller than Hermes.

    Interesting they want a fire and forget missile... I guess Thermal imaging and MMW radar technology has likely moved to the point where it would be cheap enough to fit to every missile and still allowing mass production...

    My educated guess is th swill be light one something like Javelin. So a foot soldier can carry it if needed.
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    Russia to design new-generation tank killers — Defense Ministry

    Post  GarryB on Sun Nov 20, 2016 4:00 am

    My educated guess is th swill be light one something like Javelin. So a foot soldier can carry it if needed.

    There was talk of a medium missile between long range Kornet-EM (8.5km AT and 10km HE) and short range highly portable Metis-M1 (2km) that would use fire and forget guidance, but the article mentions the Krisantema and shturm... which are both heavy vehicle or aircraft carried weapons.

    Perhaps they might have a new design weapon in a large and small missile design... one portable and perhaps top attack, and a heavier longer range missile with fire and forget and perhaps also top attack to replace the Krisantema and Ataka and Shturm (carried by Hind, Havok, Hokum, Hip, and other helos and also ground based ATGM vehicles based on the MTLB chassis).

    Will be interesting if they can make them cheap enough to actually use in the huge numbers they currently deploy them in.


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    Benya

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    Russia will develop a new generation of anti-tank missile using fire-and-forget technology.

    Post  Benya on Mon Nov 21, 2016 6:16 pm

    Russia will develop a new generation of anti-tank missile using fire-and-forget technology.

    According Major General Mikhail Matveyevsky, commander of the Russian Missile and Artillery Troops, Russia will develop a new next-generation advanced self-propelled anti-tank missile system operating on the ‘fire-and-forget’ principle.


    Khrizantema-S anti-tank missile AT-15 Springer carrier armoured vehicle based on BMP-3 IFV chassis

    Fire-and-forget is a type of missile guidance which does not require further guidance after launch such as illumination of the target or wire guidance, and can hit its target without the launcher being in line-of-sight of the target.

    There’s no need to maintain a target lock after the missile has been fired, so the launcher can focus its attention on other enemies or withdraw into cover.

    According to Maj. Gen. Matveyevsky, new anti-tank missile systems’ development focuses on improving the missiles’ efficiency, yield and resistance to enemy countermeasures, and further automation of the anti-tank units’ control.

    Currently, the Russian armed forces use the Khrizantema-S and Shturm-S self-propelled anti-tank missile systems. These weapons are capable of engaging and destroying virtually all types of tanks and armored vehicles, and even helicopters; and their radar and laser guidance systems allow them to operate both during day and night, under any weather conditions.

    The Khrizantema-S BMP-3 (Russian name 9P157-2) based tank destroyer has been developed under the leadership of the KBM Engineering Design Bureau in Moscow and was announced for the first time in 1996

    The hull roof has been modified and, mounted on the hull roof, between the second and third road wheels, is an elevated arm which carries two Khrizantema (NATO code AT-15) anti-tank guided missile system in the ready to launch position. Missiles are re-loaded automatically by the tank destroyer from an internal magazine with 15 rounds and can also accept munitions manually loaded from outside the vehicle.

    The 9M123 (NATO code AT-15 Springer) missile itself is supersonic, flying at an average speed of 400 m/s or Mach 1.2 and a range of between 400 and 6,000 meters.


    Shturm-S anti-tank missile AT-6 Spiral carrier armoured vehicle based on MT-LB tracked chassis

    The Shturm-S (NATO code AT-6 Spiral) is a Soviet-made anti-tank missile carrier using MT-LB tracked armoured chassis. It was developed in the mid 1970s and entered service with the Soviet Army in 1979.

    The Shturm-S firing unit launches the 9M114 anti-tank guided missile which can be used against static and moving targets from 400 to 5,000 m.

    Latest generation of AT-6 missile, the 9M114M1 (AT-6B) and 9M114M2 (AT-6C) are fitted with tandem HEAT warhead which can penetrated 800 mm of explosive reactive armor. This missiles also have a range of 6 and 7 km respectively.

    Source: Arrow http://www.armyrecognition.com/november_2016_global_defense_security_news_industry/russia_will_develop_a_new_generation_of_anti-tank_missile_using_fire-and-forget_technology_12111162.html
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    Re: Russian Army ATGM Thread

    Post  George1 on Sun Apr 23, 2017 2:37 pm

    Self-propelled anti-tank missile system "Kornet-T" in action

    Interesting photo-report from the website of Zvezda television and radio company informing that the cadets of the 1000th Training Center for Combat Applications of Missile Forces and Artillery of the Ground Forces of the Western Military District in Kolomna (Moscow Region) on April 20, 2017 fired missiles from "Shturm", "Konkurs", "Kornet".

    Among other things, the photo report shows a relatively rare new self-propelled anti-tank missile system 9K128-1 "Kornet-T", whose combat vehicles 9P162 are based on BMP-3. Serial complexes "Kornet-T" began to flow into the troops in 2013.





    http://bmpd.livejournal.com/2566146.html


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    Re: Russian Army ATGM Thread

    Post  Book. on Fri Jul 28, 2017 7:56 pm

    Ru Army accept New 9P157 Khrizantema S: 2017
    Here: https://youtu.be/gSN7gAsiN5M

    Fact:
    Thus upgraded 9P157 combat vehicle is provided with advanced communications means, a combined − inertial and satellite-based − navigation and orientation system, a terminal for receiving targeting data from the battery commander's vehicle, their automatic processing, displaying tactical data on a digital map, receiving combat orders and instructions. The ABMES was developed by AO NTTS Rubin JSC (city of Penza).

    The upgrading of the 9P157 combat vehicle entailed development of (1) a new test equipment for the IIR/TV sight (developed and manufactured by OAO Peleng JSC), (2) a modified 1L32 radar control system (manufactured by PAO NPO Strela public company, city of Tula); modification of (3) 9M123 and 9M123F missiles (manufactured by FGUP FNPTS PO Start) in terms of replacement of the former Ukrainian photodetector and installation of a more powerful warhead in the 9M123 missile, (4) the 9V981 test equipment for 9P157 CV checks, (5) the 9V945 test equipment (developed and manufactured by Kalashnikov concern, city of Izhevsk) and (6) 9F852 simulator (developed and manufactured by AO TSKBA, city of Tula) for training CV operators.

    Here: http://www.kbm.ru/en/press-centre/829.html



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    Re: Russian Army ATGM Thread

    Post  GarryB on Sat Jul 29, 2017 8:07 am

    So the new fire and forget missile is an upgraded Krisantema...

    The original system has a backup laser beam riding guidance, but the primary guidance is a bit like semi active radar homing guidance where a radar mounted on the launch vehicle basically paints a target with a pencil radar beam... I don't think it has a radar receiver in the nose so I would assume it tracked the target and the missile and sent course corrections to the missile via datalink to direct the missile to hit the target... it did all this automatically of course so for the operator, after selecting the target and pressing the fire button they did not have to do anything... the autotracking would do the rest till impact with the target.

    Based on the fire and forget and kill description of the weapon it probably now has an active radar homing sensor in the nose so targets can be fired upon in a fire and forget mode.

    Some articles above mention being able to engage targets without a line of sight, which suggests the missile can find its own targets if directed... I suspect the new tethered drones for the Armata tank with radar and IIR sensors could be launched from these missile platforms to find targets too...

    With terminal homing guidance it could pull tricks like a last second climb and then dive on the target to improve armour penetration performance by creating a steep angle of attack ... because armour is normally angled with the top armour being the thinnest, an attack from a steep angle means less armour to penetrate in areas with the worst armour... plus a chance to disrupt the effect of APS systems that expect straight running threats...

    With radar guidance and active radar homing you don't need a standoff probe and can have a warhead designed to form over 5-10 metres distance so the missile explodes 5-10m away from the tank from above making interception much harder too and removing the need for a standoff probe for the warhead to function properly.

    Edit:
    Actually reading the description again it looks like the commanders vehicle detects targets and passes precise target data information to the missile carrying vehicle... though possibly with a tethered drone to find the targets, and a precise location system for the target for the launch vehicles to launch the missiles to precise locations to hit targets.

    The replacement of the Ukrainian photodetector suggests optical terminal guidance, but the original photo detector was in the tail for laser beam riding guidance...

    More questions than it answers...


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    Re: Russian Army ATGM Thread

    Post  d_taddei2 on Sat Sep 23, 2017 12:35 am

    Slightly off topic although guided missiles can be fired from it. The sprut anti tank gun.

    As I believe Russia, Ukraine and Mexico use the system although in very small numbers I couldn't find any info on numbers and no info on Mexico using other than Wikipedia.

    For obvious reasons anti tank guns fell out of favour when ATGW came on the scene although the sprut was a late design in the 1980's when ATGW had been around for while so it makes me ask why did Russia develop an anti tank gun at the time most anti tank gun systems were being replaced? I had a feeling that originally the design was used as a test bed for ammo being used for tanks. And compared to other Russian anti tank guns it's very heavy. But could it still be useful? After seeing the use of systems believed to be obsolete being in Syria with reasonable effect such as AT-3 sagger and SPG-9. There cheap and still effective at destroying armoured apc, ifv, t-55/t-62 tanks, and buildings so it got me thinking couldn't the sprut still be useful in such warfare and to combat the mobility issue mount it on mt-lb or a truck with stabilising legs like syrian has done with various guns already I think it could be useful to Syrian army.

    Any views or info welcome
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    Re: Russian Army ATGM Thread

    Post  BM-21 on Mon Oct 02, 2017 11:50 am

    "Russian infantry will be protected by an anti-tank wall"

    More at:
    Izvestia iz.ru , sorry can't post link because of forum rule.

    Talks about creating an intelligent automated system for controlling anti-tank systems. Decision to create the complex has already been made. It detects and classifies the target, determining its speed, direction and then passes the information to units designated to engage it. Data can be obtained from ground units and drones. Also talks about how it will create a layered defence from tanks and other vehicles by uniting several anti-tank complexes in service with the Russian army.

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    Re: Russian Army ATGM Thread

    Post  Cyrus the great on Mon Oct 30, 2017 4:42 am


    Question:

    Would a QWIP sensor be an affordable addition to the Kornet's guidance system? It's apparently significantly cheaper than current conventional infrared sensors and is reputed to have a longer range. The OLS-50M QWIP sensor will purportedly have a range of 70 nm, so I expect that a QWIP equipped ATGM could have a fire-and-forget function 2x in excess of the 2.5 km range limit.

    The Kornet is an incredible weapon but it's not really man-portable, so what do you guys think of creating a man-portable version similar in weight to the Metis-M (23 kg) but with a range of 5km - like the Spike LR II. The thermal and laser guidance sight on the Kornet weighs 8.7 kg and if that is paired with a 14 kg top attack missile and a 3 kg tripod, it could be a very useful man portable ATGM -- the Kornet MR. Now, the missile would have the same penetration as the Metis-M1 (950 mm) but would have a range of 5 km - due to the more advance laser guidance.

    The guidance system on the Kornet-EM -with its auto-tracker- has a range of 15 km and could be incorporated onto a tactical drone like the Orbiter 3; a drone that could act as the eyes and ears and target designator of anti-tank teams - increasing their safety.

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    Re: Russian Army ATGM Thread

    Post  Cyrus the great on Tue Oct 31, 2017 2:27 am


    I should clarify that a top attack missile like the Bill 2 is what I'm referring to when I mentioned the top attack function. The Javelin climbs too high [150 meters] so that's not ideal.
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    Re: Russian Army ATGM Thread

    Post  GarryB on Tue Oct 31, 2017 6:22 am

    QWIP sensors are interesting... they are not cheap yet but have the potential to be printed like the CCD chips for digital cameras for a few dollars each.

    Add to that the processing power that is present in a modern cell phone.... there are apps that will make your face look like a dog in real time just by using the computing power of the phone to modify and process the video image in real time.

    Such capability could be used in a guided weapon without costing hundreds of thousands of dollars for each shot.

    Such a design has the potential for more exotic solutions however... fit it with folding wings so it can be lofted into the air and flown to the target area to search for targets to attack... some sort of pulse detonating engine like a buzz bomb from WWII would be noisy but cheap and simple and reliable... and the noise offers additional psychological benefits over the enemy.

    Datalink technology has improved with UAVs so a datalink back to the launcher would allow a lofted launch and low speed flight to the target from a position of cover to attack enemy positions that can be selected after launch by the operator....

    Such technology could also be added to much bigger weapons like Hermes for targets at much greater range.

    You could even include in the design the option to cue a target by pointing a laser briefly at the target so the seeker can find and hit something you are specifically after in case there are a few alternatives....

    Climbing up gives a UAV view of the target and surrounds and gives the operator a better choice of targets. A standard UAV flying around the area could be used to select a target and the missile could be launched in the direction and cued to hit a specific target but having the operator able to select the target attacked makes sense in terms of preventing friendly fire and also to allow priority targets to be dealt with first.

    A simple dumb backup fly down a laser beam option is not really useful as the Metis-M1 already fulfils that role much cheaper and in much greater numbers.

    Having lots of fire and forget ATGMs might actually be a bit chaotic....


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    Re: Russian Army ATGM Thread

    Post  Cyrus the great on Tue Oct 31, 2017 10:24 am

    GarryB wrote:QWIP sensors are interesting... they are not cheap yet but have the potential to be printed like the CCD chips for digital cameras for a few dollars each.

    Add to that the processing power that is present in a modern cell phone.... there are apps that will make your face look like a dog in real time just by using the computing power of the phone to modify and process the video image in real time.

    Such capability could be used in a guided weapon without costing hundreds of thousands of dollars for each shot.

    Such a design has the potential for more exotic solutions however... fit it with folding wings so it can be lofted into the air and flown to the target area to search for targets to attack... some sort of pulse detonating engine like a buzz bomb from WWII would be noisy but cheap and simple and reliable... and the noise offers additional psychological benefits over the enemy.

    Datalink technology has improved with UAVs so a datalink back to the launcher would allow a lofted launch and low speed flight to the target from a position of cover to attack enemy positions that can be selected after launch by the operator....

    Such technology could also be added to much bigger weapons like Hermes for targets at much greater range.

    You could even include in the design the option to cue a target by pointing a laser briefly at the target so the seeker can find and hit something you are specifically after in case there are a few alternatives....

    Climbing up gives a UAV view of the target and surrounds and gives the operator a better choice of targets.  A standard UAV flying around the area could be used to select a target and the missile could be launched in the direction and cued to hit a specific target but having the operator able to select the target attacked makes sense in terms of preventing friendly fire and also to allow priority targets to be dealt with first.

    A simple dumb backup fly down a laser beam option is not really useful as the Metis-M1 already fulfils that role much cheaper and in much greater numbers.

    Having lots of fire and forget ATGMs might actually be a bit chaotic....

    It might take a couple of years before QWIP sensors become that cheap but when it does, it will change everything. What do you think about a Kornet variant that flies 5 meters above the ground (much like the Vikhr missile) but then descends onto the tank? Could this be achieved without incurring excessive costs?

    I certainly like the idea of using tactical drones like the Orbiter 3 to observe targets 15 km away and laser designate targets with an auto-tracker. The use of the drone would dramatically remove the danger faced by anti-tank teams in the battlefield and would allow the teams to change targets mid-flight by re-directing the laser beam onto a different target -- which is precisely what the Spike missile achieves with its expensive electro-optical sight. As far as I know the Metis-m1 does not have the ability to use a top-attack function and it's wire guidance is inferior to laser guidance. The Metis-M1 should definitely remain in service due to its portability, cost-effectiveness and power but a 26 kg, top attack Kornet MR would be incredibly useful.

    It would have the same 5 km range as the Spike LR II (14 kg) and the 900-950 mm of penetration of the Metis-M1.
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    Re: Russian Army ATGM Thread

    Post  GarryB on Wed Nov 01, 2017 8:13 am

    It might take a couple of years before QWIP sensors become that cheap but when it does, it will change everything.

    100 years ago if you wanted to see in the dark on a battlefield you fired a flare but that meant both sides could see.

    50 years ago and night vision equipment started to make night fighting an option.

    In 20 years time everyone will have night vision including on your civilian cell phone and so night fighting will be as normal as day fighting except against third world enemies who don't have sponsors with deep pockets.

    What do you think about a Kornet variant that flies 5 meters above the ground (much like the Vikhr missile) but then descends onto the tank? Could this be achieved without incurring excessive costs?

    AFAIK Kornet does fly above the line of sight to prevent the missile flying into bushes or fences on its way to the target.... like the Vikhr it gets a coded signal from the laser beam it rides to the target to drop down into the line of sight a kilometre or so before impact.

    It would be possible to use the autotracking software to get the missile to climb high and then dive on the target I suppose, but I susect the risk of a miss makes them not bother.

    What do you think about a Kornet variant that flies 5 meters above the ground (much like the Vikhr missile) but then descends onto the tank? Could this be achieved without incurring excessive costs?

    Metis is cheap and totally portable.... a three man team can carry the launcher and 5 ready to launch missiles, and 950mm penetration is easily enough to penetrate the side and rear of any tank in service.... and 85% of targets on the battlefield are not as well armoured as a tank.

    Kornet can penetrate 1.2m of steel armour... it does not need to sneak around the back door...

    It would have the same 5 km range as the Spike LR II (14 kg) and the 900-950 mm of penetration of the Metis-M1.

    Why?

    I think the laser beam riding Kornet at Mach 1.5 or so is a much better weapon than these new subsonic western missiles even if on paper they are fire and forget... APS systems will have little trouble in shooting them down, yet they cost so much most armies will only be able to afford a few.


    In comparison the Metis is on paper less effective but so cheap you can have thousands of systems in operation and use them against cheap targets like MG nests and sniper nests... which actually makes them vastly more capable and more useful.

    We keep hearing about 2km range sniper shots... metis can destroy a car sized vehicle from 2km with very little training for the operator.


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    Re: Russian Army ATGM Thread

    Post  Cyrus the great on Fri Nov 03, 2017 11:31 am


    Gary B wrote:AFAIK Kornet does fly above the line of sight to prevent the missile flying into bushes or fences on its way to the target.... like the Vikhr it gets a coded signal from the laser beam it rides to the target to drop down into the line of sight a kilometre or so before impact.

    It would be possible to use the autotracking software to get the missile to climb high and then dive on the target I suppose, but I susect the risk of a miss makes them not bother.

    The Vikhr is virtually impossible to jam and so the fact that the Kornet operates like the Vikhr makes me love it all the more. The risk of a miss for my imagined Kornet variant would be significantly lower than the Javelin if it only travels at a maximum of 5 meters above the ground. The Javelin is a laughably short-ranged and obscenely expensive missile and it climbs 150 meters in top-attack mode. If it wasn't so expensive [and slow], the Spike missile would be a great ATGM. The electro-optical sensor on the Spike missile allows it to circumvent limitations imposed by terrain - behind cover. The Kornet-D is the best ATGM and it's also very cost-effective.

    Gary B wrote:Metis is cheap and totally portable.... a three man team can carry the launcher and 5 ready to launch missiles, and 950mm penetration is easily enough to penetrate the side and rear of any tank in service.... and 85% of targets on the battlefield are not as well armoured as a tank.

    Kornet can penetrate 1.2m of steel armour... it does not need to sneak around the back door...

    The Metis-M1 is really useful and I really can't see it being phased out but I think that a truly man portable variant of the Kornet would be a great platform for more challenging targets at longer ranges. A top attack 26 kg Kornet-MR variant with a 14 kg missile would be certifiably man portable and could probably reach 5 km and achieve 900-950mm penetration. It would be even more effective if they could design this Kornet-MR to hit the tank at 70 degrees in the top-attack mode. The Spike LR II missile reaches 5.5 km and it weighs only 12.7 kg.

    I suspect that the auto-tracker device on the Kornet-D weighs about 3 kg and if included in my imagined 26 kg Kornet MR variant it would bring the total weight to 29 kg.

    Gary B wrote:Why?

    I think the laser beam riding Kornet at Mach 1.5 or so is a much better weapon than these new subsonic western missiles even if on paper they are fire and forget... APS systems will have little trouble in shooting them down, yet they cost so much most armies will only be able to afford a few.


    In comparison the Metis is on paper less effective but so cheap you can have thousands of systems in operation and use them against cheap targets like MG nests and sniper nests... which actually makes them vastly more capable and more useful.

    We keep hearing about 2km range sniper shots... metis can destroy a car sized vehicle from 2km with very little training for the operator.



    Portability is the reason I think a Kornet MR is essential and even if penetration was reduced to 900-950mm it would still be more powerful than the Javelin and the Spike missile. The Kornet has greater options and does not need to rely on the much slower, more vulnerable top-attack mode - unlike the limited, near useless Javelin missile. I see the powerful, faster Kornet as a platform for use against conventional armies while the significantly slower Western missiles can only be really effective against third world armies and insurgents.

    Is the slower speed of these new Western ATGMs a byproduct of their lofted trajectory? The Kornet (thermobaric round) has a 2 km advantage (10 km) over Western missiles, so that's perhaps another disadvantage of top-attack missiles.


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    GarryB

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    Re: Russian Army ATGM Thread

    Post  GarryB on Sat Nov 04, 2017 8:11 am

    The main reasons the Javelin and Spike are so slow is the small size and weight, but also issues with finding and locking target.

    It climbs to get above smoke and trees and other obstacles to a clear line of sight on a battlefield, whereas the Vikhr and Kornet just fly above the line of sight to prevent them flying into buildings or wires or fences or bushes on the way to the target.

    The Spike and Javelin need a clear sight of the target from lock to impact so climbing makes more sense for them.

    Their primary problem is the cost of their optics... which is destroyed in the process of using them correctly.

    With Kornet and Vikhr the optical systems are actually rather more complex and expensive but because they get reused they are also higher quality and just better.

    Think of it in terms of a Maverick missile. It has an optical port in the nose and depending on the version can have a TV or thermal sight in its nose to find and lock on to targets. It locks on before launch but goes with the missile to the target and is destroyed on impact.

    The optical system continues to track the target so if it moves it controls the missile to keep it aimed at the target so even if the target moves a lot the missile will still impact its point of aim.

    The difference with the Vikhr is that the optics are on the launch platform and instead of short wires communicating to the control surfaces to fly the missile into the target the guidance system points a coded laser beam to where the system wants the missile to hit.

    A very cheap IR sensor in the rear of the missile.... not actually that much different from the IR sensor on the remote control for your TV detects the position of the missile within the beam and manouvers the aircraft to the centre of the beam...

    [quoe]The Metis-M1 is really useful and I really can't see it being phased out but I think that a truly man portable variant of the Kornet would be a great platform for more challenging targets at longer ranges. A top attack 26 kg Kornet-MR variant with a 14 kg missile would be certifiably man portable and could probably reach 5 km and achieve 900-950mm penetration. It would be even more effective if they could design this Kornet-MR to hit the tank at 70 degrees in the top-attack mode. The Spike LR II missile reaches 5.5 km and it weighs only 12.7 kg.
    [/quote]

    Why? Is Russia running out of vehicles? Does every Russian soldier need to carry some super death weapon that will destroy everything within 5km on their back everywhere they go?

    I think the proliferation of unmanned vehicles should mean that Kornets are just fine as they are... most troops move around on a vehicle at least as big as a BRDM so being able to carry Kornets everywhere as an individual weapon is a bit excessive don't you think?

    The Kornet launcher weighs too much and 14kgs for a missile is too small for what you are proposing to do.

    I suspect that the auto-tracker device on the Kornet-D weighs about 3 kg and if included in my imagined 26 kg Kornet MR variant it would bring the total weight to 29 kg.

    If you want something man portable I would go the other way.

    Replacing the wire guidance on the Metis-M1 and therefore giving it higher flight speed is a good idea IMHO, but extending the range is not needed... they have other weapons for that.... and lets be real most troops would benefit from vehicle mobility even just to get the hell out of there when enemy artillery starts raining down after they launch their first attack... so if they will have a vehicle then use Kornet... if they don't use Metis.

    Is the slower speed of these new Western ATGMs a byproduct of their lofted trajectory? The Kornet (thermobaric round) has a 2 km advantage (10 km) over Western missiles, so that's perhaps another disadvantage of top-attack missiles.

    Different missiles have different issues.

    Most western ATGMs are slow because they drag wires.

    Javelin is slow because it is so small the capacity for high energy rocket fuel is low and also the extra time is useful to find and lock targets with optical guidance after launch.


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    Cyrus the great

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    Re: Russian Army ATGM Thread

    Post  Cyrus the great on Mon Nov 06, 2017 9:22 am



    Thanks for your extensive reply, Gary

    The reason I emphasise portability is due to the need to move quickly in ambush engagements and a 63 kg platform would be a pain to move. I mis-calculated the weight of each component of the Kornet E; I was under the impression that the 1PN79-1 thermal sight included the laser designator but that's embodied in a separate system in the 1P45-1 sight-tracker. It's clear that I was wrong about the Kornet and what could reasonably be achieved with it. I believe that an improved variant of the Metis-M1 could be improved rather inexpensively to exploit its portability and lethality:


    a) This Metis-M1 variant could have its guidance updated with fiber-optics -- replacing its current wire link, thereby increasing range. It has the same potential -as the Spike LR- (12.7 kg) to have a range of 5 km

    b) It could work in concert with small, inexpensive tactical drones to provide an image of the targets in the battle space and the missile itself during its entire flight. Such tactical drones would be very useful with the inclusion of an auto-tracker similar to that of the Kornet-D only that it would use jam-resistant radio guidance

    c) It could be provided with a top-attack mode to fire safely behind cover and exploit terrain and not be constrained by it; in its direct mode it could travel 5 meters above the ground to avoid obstructions and fly 30 meters above the ground to overcome the limits of terrain. With its 900-950mm of penetration it could destroy any MBT.

    d) A soft launch ability would further increase its utility in confined spaces

    This Metis-M1 variant would retain its inexpensive guidance and all its current components while gaining new abilities and greater flexibility without being prohibitively expensive.
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    AlfaT8

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    Re: Russian Army ATGM Thread

    Post  AlfaT8 on Mon Nov 20, 2017 8:09 pm

    Sup guys, i am having a hard time finding info on the latest variant of the Konkurs, the 9N131M2-1, the only thing i found was some mention of it when IS fighter captured some.
    That one showed a manufacturing date of 2006.

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