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    Russian Army ATGM Thread

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    George1

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    Re: Russian Army ATGM Thread

    Post  George1 on Fri Nov 23, 2012 6:12 pm

    Putin kick Sherdukov's ass and delievries already begaun! Su-30SM, Krintazema, Pantsyr-S1
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    TR1

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    Re: Russian Army ATGM Thread

    Post  TR1 on Fri Nov 23, 2012 8:40 pm

    George1 wrote:Putin kick Sherdukov's ass and delievries already begaun! Su-30SM, Krintazema, Pantsyr-S1

    The deliveries had nothing to do with Serdykov being in power.


    Yay Khrisantema is finally in service!

    Austin

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    Re: Russian Army ATGM Thread

    Post  Austin on Sat Nov 24, 2012 5:50 am

    Why have Kornet and Krizanthema both why not build just one ATGM and then develop it further to make it F&F
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    GarryB

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    Re: Russian Army ATGM Thread

    Post  GarryB on Sat Nov 24, 2012 7:23 am

    Each evolved from a different set of requirements and different missile families.

    The main difference is that at 33kgs for the missile the Kornet is not really man portable any more so it has become like TOW or HOT.

    Krisantema was always a vehicle mounted system including both air and ground vehicle just like the Shturm and Ataka missiles it is pretty much replacing.

    We have seen a further improved Kornet-EM with 8.5km and 10km range for AT and general purpose use respectively.

    We haven't seen the performance figures for new model Krisantema.

    Otherwise both are very fast beam riding and/or command guided missiles with 6+km range and 1.2m+ armour penetration capacity.


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    TR1

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    Re: Russian Army ATGM Thread

    Post  TR1 on Sat Nov 24, 2012 8:52 am

    Austin wrote:Why have Kornet and Krizanthema both why not build just one ATGM and then develop it further to make it F&F

    Krizantema is a much more expensive system.
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    Cyberspec

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    Re: Russian Army ATGM Thread

    Post  Cyberspec on Sun Nov 25, 2012 5:01 am

    Maybe the Lenta.ru report above mentioning the Kornets was actually referring to the Khrizantema's ?
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    GarryB

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    Russian ATGM

    Post  GarryB on Sun Nov 25, 2012 5:11 am

    The Krizantema System is more expensive because of its MMW radar, but the missiles themselves are cheap enough.

    The more expensive system allows all weather day night capability that Kornet does not.

    I rather suspect that many of the changes applied to the Kornet-EM to double its effective range could be applied to the Krisantema for a similar range and performance increase.

    AFAIK MMW radars can be mass produced fairly cheaply and could be used to create a fire and forget missile in a similar class to MMW Hellfire, though the current design using laser beam riding backup with MMW radar radio command guidance is certainly cheap and simple and allows targets that cannot be clearly distinguished from the background to be engaged. For instance a particular window in a large building.

    Of course their was talk of a new ATGM they were working on for which we don't have any specific information about... it could be a QWIP based Javelin equivalent, or it could be a heavy Hellfire equivalent, or it could be a fire and forget guided RPG type round...


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    KomissarBojanchev

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    fire and forget missiles in the russian military(AGMs and ATGMs)

    Post  KomissarBojanchev on Fri May 17, 2013 12:35 pm

    Why do almost all Russian missiles have SACLOS guidance? Wouldn't heat seeking and SALH be much more efficient? The americans have a lot of experience with them like the hellfire, maverick, javelin(i'm not saying its good but it still is F&F) and while the Russians are superior in all other categories of missile building they are lagging behind in F&F weapons. I've heard that only a few russian AGM prototypes(X-102 is one of them I think) are F%F while all others are wire guided or have laser riding SACLOS guidance.

    Do the Russian armed forces don't have the technology or they think that F&F AGMs and ATGMs are completely pointless?
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    GarryB

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    Re: Russian Army ATGM Thread

    Post  GarryB on Sat May 18, 2013 11:01 am

    Because Russia and her allies don't want to spend all their money on weapons.

    For the price of a Javelin, they can have 20 Metis-M1 missiles... and if you look at experience in Afghanistan where the targets generally are not tanks... but often firing positions where the expensive Javelin has to be fire line of sight in manual SACLOS mode anyway the advantage actually lies with the cheaper, simpler and lighter Russian weapon... a weapon that can also be fitted with a thermal sight to use at night and in all weather.

    Wouldn't heat seeking and SALH be much more efficient?

    No. When pointing a SAM in the air at a plane you will hear a noise called a tone when the seeker is locked so you can fire your missile. You can be sure the aircraft is locked because it is the only hot thing up there, but pointing at ground targets unless you use a very sophisticated thermal imager you are not going to be able to tell what the IR seeker has locked on to... and most of the time the precise thing you want to lock on to might not have an IR signature that makes it stand out enough to get a lock... except Gas turbine powered tanks like the Abrams or early model T-80s.

    SALH is not really fire and forget because someone has to point a laser at the target (and the Soviets and now Russians have tons of artillery shells guided by laser anyway).

    The americans have a lot of experience with them like the hellfire, maverick, javelin(i'm not saying its good but it still is F&F) and while the Russians are superior in all other categories of missile building they are lagging behind in F&F weapons.

    Really? If you are going to include TV guided Maverick, Laser guided Hellfire, and IR guided Javelin then what about TV guided Kh-29T, laser guided Kh-29L, Kh-25ML, Krasnopol, Kitolov, Gran, and indeed Svir, Kornet, Kornet-EM. Krisantema?

    Hermes is going to have SALH, MMW radar, GPS, and IIR seeker options... and a 30kg warhead.

    Do the Russian armed forces don't have the technology or they think that F&F AGMs and ATGMs are completely pointless?

    They try to minimise the cost of the weapon system, so for instance they could have make Vikhr-M into a SALH missile, or indeed the Kornet, but they chose to fit the equivalent of a TV mavericks guidance into the platform, so the onboard TV camera is kept stabilised and pointed at the target, which is used to aim a low powered laser beam. The missile looks back at the launch platform and guides itself to the target so target mounted dazzlers or smoke have no effect and the missile remains simple and cheap with no expensive thermal sight or radar needed.

    The real question you need to ask is who is getting the better deal... Javelin has a low spec thermal imager in its nose because it is designed to work for a few seconds only and then be destroyed. That means it lacks range and does not produce a great image limiting range. In comparison the Kornet-EM has a much better thermal imager in its sighting system and can engage ground and air targets out to 10km with a missile that is cheaper than Javelin. With its autotracker the Kornet is practically fire and forget in terms of what the operator needs to do.

    I think the Russians are getting a much better system and they are getting it for much less.


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    collegeboy16

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    Re: Russian Army ATGM Thread

    Post  collegeboy16 on Sat May 18, 2013 12:10 pm

    $80,000 can buy you a good house here....
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    GarryB

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    Re: Russian Army ATGM Thread

    Post  GarryB on Sun May 19, 2013 10:08 am

    I can't emphasise the cost factor enough... in real combat ATGMs have actually be used as a precision guided artillery weapon for hitting targets out to 2-3km. Targets are generally snipers or MG positions, or something rifle fire is having no effect on like a rifleman behind cover in a building or small bunker. The ATGM is ideal for putting a HE charge precisely where it is needed from a distance where the target cannot effectively respond.

    Whether the missile is a Milan or a Fagot or a TOW the popular use of them means you need to make lots and lots and you need to field lots and lots.

    Metis-M1, or AT-13 is an upgraded model of the Metis missile AT-7 Saxhorn. The improvements show they got the original design pretty much right as it is lighter and longer ranged and has a much better warhead able to penetrate 950mm of RHA. Other than that is it simple and relatively light... it can be fired from the operators shoulder, with each missile light enough for a unit of three men to be able to carry the launcher and 5 missiles between them. (launcher and missile for one guy and two missiles for each of the other two soldiers). The low cost means they can fire off round after round because the missiles are actually very cheap. The launcher costs a bit more than the older launchers because it has the optional thermal sight, but that thermal sight is not in the missile so it can be a higher quality model that the unit can use for observation and engagement in bad weather and at night... the missile never sees the target.

    Don't get me wrong... fire and forget is not a bad thing... when IIR seeker chips are cheaper and MMW radar seekers have improved and gotten cheaper then they might be useful alternatives, but the KISS principle applies... Keep It Simple Stupid.


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    medo

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    Re: Russian Army ATGM Thread

    Post  medo on Tue Jul 09, 2013 3:23 pm

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dDILIqFMYuc

    Rare video of Krizanthema. Seems from army unit, although they don't have bort numbers.
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    TR1

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    Re: Russian Army ATGM Thread

    Post  TR1 on Tue Jul 09, 2013 8:29 pm

    Nice find Medo, the modernized command vehicle is the most interesting thing in that vid.
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    TheArmenian

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    Re: Russian Army ATGM Thread

    Post  TheArmenian on Fri Jul 12, 2013 8:31 am

    medo wrote:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dDILIqFMYuc

    Rare video of Krizanthema. Seems from army unit, although they don't have bort numbers.

    More on the Khrizanthema

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    medo

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    Khrizanthema ATGM

    Post  medo on Sat Jul 13, 2013 4:30 pm

    TheArmenian wrote:
    medo wrote:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dDILIqFMYuc

    Rare video of Krizanthema. Seems from army unit, although they don't have bort numbers.

    More on the Khrizanthema


    Nice video. I think search radar in battery CP is quite small. It should be bigger one to see targets on longer range for better target delivery to fire vehicles.
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    d_taddei2

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    alittle off topic, but i think the AT-15

    Post  d_taddei2 on Sun Nov 10, 2013 7:06 pm

    alittle off topic, but i think the AT-15 is an awesome anti tank missle although expensive, but when the missle
    is put to use as the  9P157-2 Khrizantema-S tank destroyer (BMP-3), now this does get scary. (pretty good bit at 1.40)

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ExPjLMwpwEw
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    Regular

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    Re: Russian Army ATGM Thread

    Post  Regular on Sun Nov 10, 2013 8:10 pm

    Khrizantema is really dangerous thing. Gadafi troops where on the receiving end of this beast in the last stages in Libyan war.
    Russia recently delivered small batch of Khrizantemas to new Libyan government.
    Some pictures
    http://milinme.wordpress.com/2013/10/13/chrysanthemums-to-libya/

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    Re: Russian Army ATGM Thread

    Post  Rpg type 7v on Mon Nov 11, 2013 6:52 pm

    d_taddei2 wrote:alittle off topic, but i think the AT-15 is an awesome anti tank missle although expensive, but when the missle
    is put to use as the  9P157-2 Khrizantema-S tank destroyer (BMP-3), now this does get scary. (pretty good bit at 1.40)

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ExPjLMwpwEw

    to answer to you and garry there is a reason max ranges if infantry atgm are about 2,5km... after 2000m the accuracy of tank rounds starts to drop more and more as they slow down and balistic forces take over.

    khrizantema is supersonic 400m /s and has the highest range out there of modern atgms - 6km.

    however lack of fire and forget capability is a serious flaw that puts helicopters in great danger because they have to stay up and keep line of sight for targeting.

    In modern battlefield tanks are followed by shorad and all new shorad systems and manpads that accompany tanks have much longer ranges and 2-3 times faster missiles then khrizantema.
    also important to note is that average speed from 0-6000m is less then 300m/s so engagment times on max range will be about 20s. tooo long.
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    medo

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    Re: Russian Army ATGM Thread

    Post  medo on Tue Nov 12, 2013 9:18 am

    Rpg type 7v wrote:
    d_taddei2 wrote:alittle off topic, but i think the AT-15 is an awesome anti tank missle although expensive, but when the missle
    is put to use as the  9P157-2 Khrizantema-S tank destroyer (BMP-3), now this does get scary. (pretty good bit at 1.40)

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ExPjLMwpwEw

    to answer to you and garry there is a reason max ranges if infantry atgm are about 2,5km... after 2000m the accuracy of tank rounds starts to drop more and more as they slow down and balistic forces take over.

    khrizantema is supersonic 400m /s and has the highest range out there of modern atgms - 6km.

    however lack of fire and forget capability is a serious flaw that puts helicopters in great danger because they have to stay up and keep line of sight for targeting.

    In modern battlefield tanks are followed by shorad and all new shorad systems and manpads that accompany tanks have much longer ranges and 2-3 times faster missiles then khrizantema.
    also important to note is that average speed from 0-6000m is less then 300m/s so engagment times on max range will be about 20s. tooo long.
    There is a little problem. SHORADs will be few kilometers behind tanks, not in the same line. Kkrizantema missiles fly fast and low, straight to the tank and not high and slow as Javelin. SHORADs and MANPADs will not be able to fire on Kornet or Khrizantema missiles, if they don't want to fire on and kill their own forces in front of them, specially when infantry is outside. Not to say it is very hard to lock a missile, which fly around 1 m over ground.
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    GarryB

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    Re: Russian Army ATGM Thread

    Post  GarryB on Tue Nov 12, 2013 10:23 am

    to answer to you and garry there is a reason max ranges if infantry atgm are about 2,5km... after 2000m the accuracy of tank rounds starts to drop more and more as they slow down and balistic forces take over.
    Ballistic forces take over from what?

    Ballistic forces are relevant from muzzle to target impact.

    The 2.5km range is chosen mostly because it is so called medium range... ie generally just outside the limit of small arms fire.

    It means that when used in the vast majority of cases like most weapons in this class the range and penetration requirements make it fully man portable but allow engagement of a range of enemy targets outside of small arms range... like MG posts, Sniper positions, and light bunkers or fortified rooms in buildings.

    however lack of fire and forget capability is a serious flaw that puts helicopters in great danger because they have to stay up and keep line of sight for targeting.
    Targeting is fully automatic like Kornet-EM which leaves the pilot free to manouver the aircraft over a fairly wide range of angles after launch. The relative high speed of the missile means less time involved in guidance.

    also important to note is that average speed from 0-6000m is less then 300m/s so engagment times on max range will be about 20s. tooo long.
    420m/s is the average speed over 6km range target engagements.

    The air launched Krisantema is reported to fly faster and have a range of 8km, but its replacement... HERMES will be the standard anti armour weapon where the ground forces are firing back... and at 1,000m/s peak speed targets out to 16-18km will not have much time to react and little chance of seeing the helo that attacked them let alone shooting back.

    Medo of course raises several relevant points too... as usual.... Smile 


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    ― Samuel P. Huntington, The Clash of Civilizations and the Remaking of World Order

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    Re: Russian Army ATGM Thread

    Post  Rpg type 7v on Tue Nov 12, 2013 6:49 pm

    medo wrote:
    Rpg type 7v wrote:
    d_taddei2 wrote:alittle off topic, but i think the AT-15 is an awesome anti tank missle although expensive, but when the missle
    is put to use as the  9P157-2 Khrizantema-S tank destroyer (BMP-3), now this does get scary. (pretty good bit at 1.40)

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ExPjLMwpwEw

    to answer to you and garry there is a reason max ranges if infantry atgm are about 2,5km... after 2000m the accuracy of tank rounds starts to drop more and more as they slow down and balistic forces take over.

    khrizantema is supersonic 400m /s and has the highest range out there of modern atgms - 6km.

    however lack of fire and forget capability is a serious flaw that puts helicopters in great danger because they have to stay up and keep line of sight for targeting.

    In modern battlefield tanks are followed by shorad and all new shorad systems and manpads that accompany tanks have much longer ranges and 2-3 times faster missiles then khrizantema.
    also important to note is that average speed from 0-6000m is less then 300m/s so engagment times on max range will be about 20s. tooo long.
    There is a little problem. SHORADs will be few kilometers behind tanks, not in the same line. Kkrizantema missiles fly fast and low, straight to the tank and not high and slow as Javelin. SHORADs and MANPADs will not be able to fire on Kornet or Khrizantema missiles, if they don't want to fire on and kill their own forces in front of them, specially when infantry is outside. Not to say it is very hard to lock a missile, which fly around 1 m over ground.
    i wasnt talking about hitting the missiles at all it seems you cant read , i was talking about anihilating the attack helicopter which is in the open, you kill it and you also break the chain and missiles have lost guidance and have become useless and miss thier targets...
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    medo

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    Re: Russian Army ATGM Thread

    Post  medo on Tue Nov 12, 2013 7:57 pm

    Rpg type 7v wrote:
    medo wrote:
    Rpg type 7v wrote:
    d_taddei2 wrote:alittle off topic, but i think the AT-15 is an awesome anti tank missle although expensive, but when the missle
    is put to use as the  9P157-2 Khrizantema-S tank destroyer (BMP-3), now this does get scary. (pretty good bit at 1.40)

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ExPjLMwpwEw

    to answer to you and garry there is a reason max ranges if infantry atgm are about 2,5km... after 2000m the accuracy of tank rounds starts to drop more and more as they slow down and balistic forces take over.

    khrizantema is supersonic 400m /s and has the highest range out there of modern atgms - 6km.

    however lack of fire and forget capability is a serious flaw that puts helicopters in great danger because they have to stay up and keep line of sight for targeting.

    In modern battlefield tanks are followed by shorad and all new shorad systems and manpads that accompany tanks have much longer ranges and 2-3 times faster missiles then khrizantema.
    also important to note is that average speed from 0-6000m is less then 300m/s so engagment times on max range will be about 20s. tooo long.
    There is a little problem. SHORADs will be few kilometers behind tanks, not in the same line. Kkrizantema missiles fly fast and low, straight to the tank and not high and slow as Javelin. SHORADs and MANPADs will not be able to fire on Kornet or Khrizantema missiles, if they don't want to fire on and kill their own forces in front of them, specially when infantry is outside. Not to say it is very hard to lock a missile, which fly around 1 m over ground.
    i wasnt talking about hitting the missiles at all it seems you cant read , i was talking about anihilating the attack helicopter which is in the open, you kill it and you also break the chain and missiles have lost guidance and have become useless and miss thier targets...
    You talk about Khrizantema, which is ground based ATGM mounted on BMP-3 chassis. There is no helicopter Khrizantema missile yet and I doubt it will ever be. Helicopters have longer range ATGMs. Ataka have 8 km range, Vikhr have 10 km range, Hermes will have even longer range, so they will be practically also out of range of SHORADs and MANPADs, considering they are few km behind tanks. Here is actually the point of BMPT kind of vehicles to support tanks in the first lines, which should have ATGM like Kornet-EM with 10 km range. They will actually keep helicopters out of their effective range, being with guided missiles or fire and forget missiles.

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    Re: Russian Army ATGM Thread

    Post  Rpg type 7v on Tue Nov 12, 2013 8:11 pm

    you dont know what you are talking about ,khrizantema is to replace ataka and shturm and older atgm missiles on helicopters...attack 
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    medo

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    Re: Russian Army ATGM Thread

    Post  medo on Tue Nov 12, 2013 8:21 pm

    Did you see any Khrizantema missile on a helicopter? Russia restart production of Vikhr missiles for Ka-52 in the mean time that Hermes is ready for production. If they will place Khrizantema on helicopter, it will for sure have increased range to at least 10 km if not more. Khrizanthema will be relevant for Mi-28, when it will get its radar mounted. For now Ataka is good enough.
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    medo

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    Re: Russian Army ATGM Thread

    Post  medo on Tue Nov 12, 2013 8:24 pm

    Rpg type 7v wrote:you dont know what you are talking about ,khrizantema is to replace ataka and shturm and older atgm missiles on helicopters...attack 
    Not exactly. Khrizanthema is to replace Ataka and Shturm atgms on Shturm-S ground based ATGM complex mounted in MT-LB vehicle.

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