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    Russian Army ATGM Thread

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    George1

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    Re: Russian Army ATGM Thread

    Post  George1 on Fri Nov 23, 2012 7:12 pm

    Putin kick Sherdukov's ass and delievries already begaun! Su-30SM, Krintazema, Pantsyr-S1
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    TR1

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    Re: Russian Army ATGM Thread

    Post  TR1 on Fri Nov 23, 2012 9:40 pm

    George1 wrote:Putin kick Sherdukov's ass and delievries already begaun! Su-30SM, Krintazema, Pantsyr-S1

    The deliveries had nothing to do with Serdykov being in power.


    Yay Khrisantema is finally in service!

    Austin

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    Re: Russian Army ATGM Thread

    Post  Austin on Sat Nov 24, 2012 6:50 am

    Why have Kornet and Krizanthema both why not build just one ATGM and then develop it further to make it F&F
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    GarryB

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    Re: Russian Army ATGM Thread

    Post  GarryB on Sat Nov 24, 2012 8:23 am

    Each evolved from a different set of requirements and different missile families.

    The main difference is that at 33kgs for the missile the Kornet is not really man portable any more so it has become like TOW or HOT.

    Krisantema was always a vehicle mounted system including both air and ground vehicle just like the Shturm and Ataka missiles it is pretty much replacing.

    We have seen a further improved Kornet-EM with 8.5km and 10km range for AT and general purpose use respectively.

    We haven't seen the performance figures for new model Krisantema.

    Otherwise both are very fast beam riding and/or command guided missiles with 6+km range and 1.2m+ armour penetration capacity.


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    TR1

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    Re: Russian Army ATGM Thread

    Post  TR1 on Sat Nov 24, 2012 9:52 am

    Austin wrote:Why have Kornet and Krizanthema both why not build just one ATGM and then develop it further to make it F&F

    Krizantema is a much more expensive system.
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    Cyberspec

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    Re: Russian Army ATGM Thread

    Post  Cyberspec on Sun Nov 25, 2012 6:01 am

    Maybe the Lenta.ru report above mentioning the Kornets was actually referring to the Khrizantema's ?
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    GarryB

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    Russian ATGM

    Post  GarryB on Sun Nov 25, 2012 6:11 am

    The Krizantema System is more expensive because of its MMW radar, but the missiles themselves are cheap enough.

    The more expensive system allows all weather day night capability that Kornet does not.

    I rather suspect that many of the changes applied to the Kornet-EM to double its effective range could be applied to the Krisantema for a similar range and performance increase.

    AFAIK MMW radars can be mass produced fairly cheaply and could be used to create a fire and forget missile in a similar class to MMW Hellfire, though the current design using laser beam riding backup with MMW radar radio command guidance is certainly cheap and simple and allows targets that cannot be clearly distinguished from the background to be engaged. For instance a particular window in a large building.

    Of course their was talk of a new ATGM they were working on for which we don't have any specific information about... it could be a QWIP based Javelin equivalent, or it could be a heavy Hellfire equivalent, or it could be a fire and forget guided RPG type round...


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    KomissarBojanchev

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    fire and forget missiles in the russian military(AGMs and ATGMs)

    Post  KomissarBojanchev on Fri May 17, 2013 1:35 pm

    Why do almost all Russian missiles have SACLOS guidance? Wouldn't heat seeking and SALH be much more efficient? The americans have a lot of experience with them like the hellfire, maverick, javelin(i'm not saying its good but it still is F&F) and while the Russians are superior in all other categories of missile building they are lagging behind in F&F weapons. I've heard that only a few russian AGM prototypes(X-102 is one of them I think) are F%F while all others are wire guided or have laser riding SACLOS guidance.

    Do the Russian armed forces don't have the technology or they think that F&F AGMs and ATGMs are completely pointless?
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    GarryB

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    Re: Russian Army ATGM Thread

    Post  GarryB on Sat May 18, 2013 12:01 pm

    Because Russia and her allies don't want to spend all their money on weapons.

    For the price of a Javelin, they can have 20 Metis-M1 missiles... and if you look at experience in Afghanistan where the targets generally are not tanks... but often firing positions where the expensive Javelin has to be fire line of sight in manual SACLOS mode anyway the advantage actually lies with the cheaper, simpler and lighter Russian weapon... a weapon that can also be fitted with a thermal sight to use at night and in all weather.

    Wouldn't heat seeking and SALH be much more efficient?

    No. When pointing a SAM in the air at a plane you will hear a noise called a tone when the seeker is locked so you can fire your missile. You can be sure the aircraft is locked because it is the only hot thing up there, but pointing at ground targets unless you use a very sophisticated thermal imager you are not going to be able to tell what the IR seeker has locked on to... and most of the time the precise thing you want to lock on to might not have an IR signature that makes it stand out enough to get a lock... except Gas turbine powered tanks like the Abrams or early model T-80s.

    SALH is not really fire and forget because someone has to point a laser at the target (and the Soviets and now Russians have tons of artillery shells guided by laser anyway).

    The americans have a lot of experience with them like the hellfire, maverick, javelin(i'm not saying its good but it still is F&F) and while the Russians are superior in all other categories of missile building they are lagging behind in F&F weapons.

    Really? If you are going to include TV guided Maverick, Laser guided Hellfire, and IR guided Javelin then what about TV guided Kh-29T, laser guided Kh-29L, Kh-25ML, Krasnopol, Kitolov, Gran, and indeed Svir, Kornet, Kornet-EM. Krisantema?

    Hermes is going to have SALH, MMW radar, GPS, and IIR seeker options... and a 30kg warhead.

    Do the Russian armed forces don't have the technology or they think that F&F AGMs and ATGMs are completely pointless?

    They try to minimise the cost of the weapon system, so for instance they could have make Vikhr-M into a SALH missile, or indeed the Kornet, but they chose to fit the equivalent of a TV mavericks guidance into the platform, so the onboard TV camera is kept stabilised and pointed at the target, which is used to aim a low powered laser beam. The missile looks back at the launch platform and guides itself to the target so target mounted dazzlers or smoke have no effect and the missile remains simple and cheap with no expensive thermal sight or radar needed.

    The real question you need to ask is who is getting the better deal... Javelin has a low spec thermal imager in its nose because it is designed to work for a few seconds only and then be destroyed. That means it lacks range and does not produce a great image limiting range. In comparison the Kornet-EM has a much better thermal imager in its sighting system and can engage ground and air targets out to 10km with a missile that is cheaper than Javelin. With its autotracker the Kornet is practically fire and forget in terms of what the operator needs to do.

    I think the Russians are getting a much better system and they are getting it for much less.


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    collegeboy16

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    Re: Russian Army ATGM Thread

    Post  collegeboy16 on Sat May 18, 2013 1:10 pm

    $80,000 can buy you a good house here....
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    GarryB

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    Re: Russian Army ATGM Thread

    Post  GarryB on Sun May 19, 2013 11:08 am

    I can't emphasise the cost factor enough... in real combat ATGMs have actually be used as a precision guided artillery weapon for hitting targets out to 2-3km. Targets are generally snipers or MG positions, or something rifle fire is having no effect on like a rifleman behind cover in a building or small bunker. The ATGM is ideal for putting a HE charge precisely where it is needed from a distance where the target cannot effectively respond.

    Whether the missile is a Milan or a Fagot or a TOW the popular use of them means you need to make lots and lots and you need to field lots and lots.

    Metis-M1, or AT-13 is an upgraded model of the Metis missile AT-7 Saxhorn. The improvements show they got the original design pretty much right as it is lighter and longer ranged and has a much better warhead able to penetrate 950mm of RHA. Other than that is it simple and relatively light... it can be fired from the operators shoulder, with each missile light enough for a unit of three men to be able to carry the launcher and 5 missiles between them. (launcher and missile for one guy and two missiles for each of the other two soldiers). The low cost means they can fire off round after round because the missiles are actually very cheap. The launcher costs a bit more than the older launchers because it has the optional thermal sight, but that thermal sight is not in the missile so it can be a higher quality model that the unit can use for observation and engagement in bad weather and at night... the missile never sees the target.

    Don't get me wrong... fire and forget is not a bad thing... when IIR seeker chips are cheaper and MMW radar seekers have improved and gotten cheaper then they might be useful alternatives, but the KISS principle applies... Keep It Simple Stupid.


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    medo

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    Re: Russian Army ATGM Thread

    Post  medo on Tue Jul 09, 2013 4:23 pm

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dDILIqFMYuc

    Rare video of Krizanthema. Seems from army unit, although they don't have bort numbers.
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    TR1

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    Re: Russian Army ATGM Thread

    Post  TR1 on Tue Jul 09, 2013 9:29 pm

    Nice find Medo, the modernized command vehicle is the most interesting thing in that vid.
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    TheArmenian

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    Re: Russian Army ATGM Thread

    Post  TheArmenian on Fri Jul 12, 2013 9:31 am

    medo wrote:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dDILIqFMYuc

    Rare video of Krizanthema. Seems from army unit, although they don't have bort numbers.

    More on the Khrizanthema

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    medo

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    Khrizanthema ATGM

    Post  medo on Sat Jul 13, 2013 5:30 pm

    TheArmenian wrote:
    medo wrote:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dDILIqFMYuc

    Rare video of Krizanthema. Seems from army unit, although they don't have bort numbers.

    More on the Khrizanthema


    Nice video. I think search radar in battery CP is quite small. It should be bigger one to see targets on longer range for better target delivery to fire vehicles.
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    Viktor

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    Modernized ATGM for Russian tanks

    Post  Viktor on Thu Jul 03, 2014 5:06 pm

    Modernized ATGM for Russian tanks  thumbsup 

    Russian army had adopted a modernized "fighter" tanks
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    medo

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    Re: Russian Army ATGM Thread

    Post  medo on Thu Jul 03, 2014 5:21 pm

    Viktor wrote:Modernized ATGM for Russian tanks  thumbsup 

    Russian army had adopted a modernized "fighter" tanks

    http://www.sdelanounas.ru/blogs/50937/

    Russian army adopt in armament modernized Shturm-SM ATGM complex. It have modernized FCS with thermal imager, to operate all time, increased range to 6 km (most probably replace old Shturm missile with Ataka missile) and it seems to have 2 radio antennas, what could mean to have data link for integration in C4I.




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    GarryB

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    Re: Russian Army ATGM Thread

    Post  GarryB on Fri Jul 04, 2014 12:55 pm

    increased range to 6 km (most probably replace old Shturm missile with Ataka missile)

    Ataka has been used by the Shturm system for years.

    This article is talking about adding Krisantema to the existing Shturm vehicles.

    Krisantema would be a useful upgrade for the old system in terms of range and power of the warhead even if they don't adopt the radar guidance... the optical guidance would be rather cheaper if less effective...

    The article mentions that the MMW radar guidance is expensive and heavy and doesn't offer the accuracy and low cost of the laser beam riding guidance so they have added the Krisantema missile but not its radar guidance system to get it into wider service quicker and at lower cost.


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    Asf

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    Re: Russian Army ATGM Thread

    Post  Asf on Fri Jul 04, 2014 1:17 pm

    Krisantema would be a useful upgrade for the old system in terms of range and power of the warhead even if they don't adopt the radar guidance... the optical guidance would be rather cheaper if less effective...

    The article mentions that the MMW radar guidance is expensive and heavy and doesn't offer the accuracy and low cost of the laser beam riding guidance so they have added the Krisantema missile but not its radar guidance system to get it into wider service quicker and at lower cost.

    Sturm-SM uses both laser and radiobeam command guidance. Here (russian)
    Khrisantema's missiles uses opnly one type of guidance on the other hand (depends on the missle type).
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    GarryB

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    Re: Russian Army ATGM Thread

    Post  GarryB on Sat Jul 05, 2014 9:13 am

    Ooops, yes, sorry, my mistake.

    The Shturm and Ataka were both command guidance missiles though they added laser beam riding to some ATAKA missiles for use on other platforms like Ka-50.

    Krisantema is primarily radio command but its launch platform uses MMW radar to detect and track the target and outgoing missile and sends command guidance flight corrections to the missile in flight.

    The main difference with laser beam riding is that you just need to track the target while the missile itself identifies its own position within the laser and steers itself to the target.

    Sorry, when I was referring to optical guidance I was meaning the optical sensor in the tail of the missile that looks back at the launch vehicle to detect the missiles position within the laser beam. If it senses it is too high or too low or too far right or left of the centre of the beam the missile itself will manouver to enter the centre of the beam and fly to the target.

    very simple very cheap very accurate and effective.


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    Morpheus Eberhardt

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    Avtonomiya ATGM

    Post  Morpheus Eberhardt on Mon Nov 24, 2014 11:04 am

    Avtonomiya

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    GarryB

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    Re: Russian Army ATGM Thread

    Post  GarryB on Tue Nov 25, 2014 4:55 am

    Super RPO-A?


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    Morpheus Eberhardt

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    Re: Russian Army ATGM Thread

    Post  Morpheus Eberhardt on Tue Nov 25, 2014 8:21 am

    GarryB wrote:Super RPO-A?

    IR imaging/MMW radar guided ATGM.
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    magnumcromagnon

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    Re: Russian Army ATGM Thread

    Post  magnumcromagnon on Tue Nov 25, 2014 8:29 am

    Morpheus Eberhardt wrote:
    GarryB wrote:Super RPO-A?

    IR imaging/MMW radar guided ATGM.

    That was my first guess, but personally a beam-riding missile like the Kornet-M will be more reliable than a IR top attack ATGM and Russia shouldn't go that direction unless they could shore up the reliability problems as well as the additional expense.
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    GarryB

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    Re: Russian Army ATGM Thread

    Post  GarryB on Tue Nov 25, 2014 8:50 am

    The main reliability problems with Spike and Javelin is because the IR sensors on the missiles are cheap... well relatively cheap so they are not high performance TI optics like say that fitted to a modern rifle scope or whatever.

    QWIP sensors are just like the CCD chips in a video camera and once in mass production they will not only be able to be made in models sensitive to different frequencies (ie visible light like a video camera plus IR and UV) but they will be able to stamp them out like DVDs for a few dollars each.

    The thing is however... you probably want a more sophisticated sighting system on the launcher and also I assume the lines near the front of the missile are pop out control fins...

    Seems like a bit of a waste of effort in my opinion unless they managed to make it truly fire and forget with a launch range that makes it useful.

    METIS-M1 plus Kornet-EM are already good enough and cheap enough to be mass produced.

    Personally I am not really impressed, unless it is possible to make it cheap and fire and forget... or has something special that makes it more interesting.

    MMW radar AND IIR? Or one or the other? The sight looks like the scope from an RPG-7...


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