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    Russian Army ATGM Thread

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    medo
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    Re: Russian Army ATGM Thread

    Post  medo on Sun Jul 08, 2012 11:47 am

    TR1 wrote:Based on Iran's defense industry as a whole.

    THey are not known for top of the line stuff in any field.

    Considering Iranian made C-802 hit Israeli corvette near Lebanon, they are not that bad either. Iranian industry is new and is developed with difficulties because of sanctions, but they still were able to launch satellites into orbit. With modern machinery and good technical skills, they could be still inside quality norms.

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    Re: Russian Army ATGM Thread

    Post  flamming_python on Sun Jul 08, 2012 1:05 pm

    Kornets are among the most sophisticated AT missiles in the world. I think even with blueprints and an official license the Iranians would have problems manufacturing all the components and to the required detail. Even China, when it copies Russian tech, ends up with lower-grade versions (although this is partly intentional as they prefer cheaper hardware). What chances does Iran have?

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    Re: Russian Army ATGM Thread

    Post  TR1 on Sun Jul 08, 2012 7:44 pm

    Yeah exactly, I don't doubt Iran can make decent, even good weaponry, but I just have not seen really top of the line stuff from them in any field.

    Kornet is among the most penetrating of ATGMs, have the Iranians been able to replicate its performance? How about reliability, guidence and actual field functionality?

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    Re: Russian Army ATGM Thread

    Post  Cyberspec on Mon Jul 09, 2012 4:59 am

    Well how about the fact that they already produce TOW, Konkurs and Metis clones, which BTW have been used in combat successfully (Lebanon). This is probably a clone of the baseline version of the Kornet which I think is within their industry's capability since they must have samples to work with.

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    Re: Russian Army ATGM Thread

    Post  GarryB on Mon Jul 09, 2012 7:44 am

    I am pretty sure they don't licence produce TOW now, but Iran does licence produce a range of weapons systems including ATGMs.

    I rather suspect this is an example of a licence produced missile.

    Does anyone speak Persian and is able to translate the video for us?

    When the Shah was in power in the 1970s and Iran was the best thing since sliced bread, it was Iranian money that bought a surprising number of western defence products.

    In fact what we know now as the Challenger series of tanks, which are world class vehicles, was basically paid for by Iran... imagine if they waited for them to be delivered before the overthrow of the CIA puppet?

    I haven't checked but I would suspect the first TOW production plants in Iran was US built and paid for by Iranian oil.

    They like to have their own military industries and they often base their products on foreign systems... twin tailed F-5s spring to mind, but I have quite a high regard for Iranian engineers... of course not being an engineer myself I also have a high regard for Chinese engineers too... even just copying is not easy and they often do more than just copy anyway.

    A good example is my Type 56S rifle. Externally it is just an AKM copy, but they rebuilt the rear of the bolt carrier so that the hammer cannot hit the firing pin in the bolt till the bolt carrier is in the forward and locked position... it is a safety thing that prevents the hammer hitting the firing pin while the bolt is not in its forward locked position. In the Soviet AKM there are a few extra components that prevent the hammer being released till the bolt is closed and is referred to in the west as a rate of fire reducer... it is really just a hammer delay.

    The Chinese solution reduces the number of parts they need to make, though it makes the bolt carrier slightly longer and heavier overall it is a design improvement.


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    Re: Russian Army ATGM Thread

    Post  flamming_python on Mon Jul 09, 2012 11:36 pm

    GarryB wrote:I am pretty sure they don't licence produce TOW now, but Iran does licence produce a range of weapons systems including ATGMs.

    I rather suspect this is an example of a licence produced missile.

    Does anyone speak Persian and is able to translate the video for us?

    When the Shah was in power in the 1970s and Iran was the best thing since sliced bread, it was Iranian money that bought a surprising number of western defence products.

    In fact what we know now as the Challenger series of tanks, which are world class vehicles, was basically paid for by Iran... imagine if they waited for them to be delivered before the overthrow of the CIA puppet?

    I haven't checked but I would suspect the first TOW production plants in Iran was US built and paid for by Iranian oil.

    They like to have their own military industries and they often base their products on foreign systems... twin tailed F-5s spring to mind, but I have quite a high regard for Iranian engineers... of course not being an engineer myself I also have a high regard for Chinese engineers too... even just copying is not easy and they often do more than just copy anyway.

    A good example is my Type 56S rifle. Externally it is just an AKM copy, but they rebuilt the rear of the bolt carrier so that the hammer cannot hit the firing pin in the bolt till the bolt carrier is in the forward and locked position... it is a safety thing that prevents the hammer hitting the firing pin while the bolt is not in its forward locked position. In the Soviet AKM there are a few extra components that prevent the hammer being released till the bolt is closed and is referred to in the west as a rate of fire reducer... it is really just a hammer delay.

    The Chinese solution reduces the number of parts they need to make, though it makes the bolt carrier slightly longer and heavier overall it is a design improvement.

    The Chinese I believe have plenty of innovations of their own. It's just that their effort is mostly focused on reducing cost and manufacturing complexity, more than anything else. There is absolutely no reason to re-invent the wheel for them, or to stay ahead of the curve. For most hardware - they just wait until the US and Russia come up with something new, and then copy it and make a version in order to suit their own requirements. They save time and money. I mean why waste these resources for something they don't really urgently need; like the latest tanks, AT missiles, APCs, infantry kits, guided bombs, etc... The same goes for their nuclear force too; it's enough to ensure their security, and they see no neccessity in plunging vast sums in order to achieve even partial parity with the US and Russia in nuclear ballistic missile subs or strategic aviation.

    They are slowly moving up to a more qualitative force; but basically where the quality is really needed (long range artillery, missile destroyers, fighters, etc...); they already have it in any case; either via purchases from Russia, or their own high-cost designs. Those sensitive technologies that they asked for Russia, but which were not sold to them, or which are priorities for them (anti-ship missiles, etc...); they are making quick advances in.

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    Re: Russian Army ATGM Thread

    Post  GarryB on Tue Jul 10, 2012 9:20 am

    We agree... Smile

    Remember they have an enormous population and a large armed force to equip... decent reliable stuff that works is often much better than the flashy high tech western stuff that works on paper... some USStrong fanbois will talk about how an F-16 can carry an 8 ton weapon payload and that Chinese and Russian aircraft are inferior because their light fighters can't, but you and I know better than that. War is not a computer game where on every mission each aircraft expends enormous amounts of weapons against wave after wave of enemy aircraft...


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    Re: Russian Army ATGM Thread

    Post  Cyberspec on Wed Jul 11, 2012 6:51 am

    Here's an Iranian TV report (in English)


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    Re: Russian Army ATGM Thread

    Post  GarryB on Thu Jul 12, 2012 8:07 am

    They never actually say they designed it, they only state they now manufacture it.

    This is clearly a licence produced Kornet-E model missile, which is a very potent weapon and a very capable system.

    Interesting they mention its capability against naval targets... the obvious issue there is the 5km range would mean you would need to get quite close to a ship to hit it and the relatively small warhead would not do serious damage to anything over 500 tons. A missile into the main deck of a small boat could be very effective, or aiming at external armament like anti ship missiles in exposed launchers could be very effective, but against a larger vessel it would be a pin prick.

    If you were going to build a UCAV however this missile would be an ideal system because there are no trailing wires and its high flight speed would get it to targets fairly quickly and against small point targets it would be very useful. In addition, its 5.5km range offers fairly good reach for a small unmanned aircraft... at 3,000m up a small UCAV would be difficult to see or hear from 5km range. With the guidance system in a belly mounted ball turret with unlimited 360 degree rotation it could fly in a small circle 500m across at 5km distant with the ball turret constantly traversing to keep the target in view and every time the aircraft comes around it can launch a new missile if necessary.


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    Re: Russian Army ATGM Thread

    Post  medo on Thu Jul 12, 2012 4:13 pm

    I doubt Iranians think to use Kornet ATGMs against ships, when they talk about targets on water, but that they are very useful to destroy enemy swimming vehicles as AMTRAKs and other boats carrying naval infantry to attack your coast. Hitting AMTRAK 5 km away means surviving marines have a long way to swim back to the ship or a long way to swim to the coast.

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    Re: Russian Army ATGM Thread

    Post  Viktor on Thu Jul 12, 2012 7:22 pm

    Iran bought METIS ATGM licence and I dont see why not Kornet also. I doubt this is a ripoff.

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    Re: Russian Army ATGM Thread

    Post  GarryB on Fri Jul 13, 2012 2:11 am

    I doubt Iranians think to use Kornet ATGMs against ships, when they talk about targets on water, but that they are very useful to destroy enemy swimming vehicles as AMTRAKs and other boats carrying naval infantry to attack your coast. Hitting AMTRAK 5 km away means surviving marines have a long way to swim back to the ship or a long way to swim to the coast.

    This is true, if they are planning a landing force... which would likely be Irans greatest fear, a shore based ATGM that can hit targets in the water would be very valuable for stopping an invasion force... a landing ship beaches and opens its landing doors and the first vehicle starts to drive out and is hit by a Kornet... how do you shift 30 tons of steel (Bradley) or 40-50 tons (LTTTTTTTVP whatever) or 70 tons of dead weight (Abrams) while under fire?

    Equally its accuracy against point targets with a HE charge would also be useful to engage SEAL teams mapping out the beaches etc.

    I also agree with Viktor... I suspect this is just evidence that Iran is now licence producing Kornet-E missiles.

    I suspect in a few years time they will want to upgrade to Kornet EMs, which will extend their capabilities even further.


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    Tigr with Kornet-E

    Post  TR1 on Wed Jul 18, 2012 11:44 pm

    http://vitalykuzmin.net/?q=node/461

    I don't wanna post all of them, but Vitaly has a bunch of these phenom photo reports from the recent display, check em all out.

    http://77rus.smugmug.com/Military/Engineering-Technologies-2012/i-2JPRXkj/0/O/TVM2012ch2p3photo019.jpg

    Tigr with Kornet-E is pretty sexy.

    http://77rus.smugmug.com/Military/Engineering-Technologies-2012/i-rPk48Jv/0/O/TVM2012ch2p3photo022.jpg

    The targeting and launch complex.

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    Re: Russian Army ATGM Thread

    Post  GarryB on Thu Jul 19, 2012 8:57 am

    He has skill with a camera does he not?

    I occasionally get the light right, but usually by accident... Smile


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    Re: Russian Army ATGM Thread

    Post  George1 on Thu Jul 19, 2012 1:28 pm

    It looks great!!


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    Re: Russian Army ATGM Thread

    Post  George1 on Fri Nov 23, 2012 6:30 pm

    More than 10 sets of new anti-tank missiles (ATGM) "khrizantema-s" the crawler, which replaced the complexes "Shturm" entered the artillery connecting southern military district (ÛVO), located in Ingushetia.

    http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=486109058116747&set=a.289548557772799.66899.145866335474356&type=1&relevant_count=1


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    Re: Russian Army ATGM Thread

    Post  medo on Fri Nov 23, 2012 7:06 pm

    George1 wrote:More than 10 sets of new anti-tank missiles (ATGM) "khrizantema-s" the crawler, which replaced the complexes "Shturm" entered the artillery connecting southern military district (ÛVO), located in Ingushetia.

    http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=486109058116747&set=a.289548557772799.66899.145866335474356&type=1&relevant_count=1


    Excellent. It seems they will combine both Kornet and Krizanthema ATGMs. Good improvement in all weather and night capabilities. I wonder if there is capability to indirect cooperation through data link between Krizanthema and Ka-52.

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    Re: Russian Army ATGM Thread

    Post  George1 on Fri Nov 23, 2012 7:12 pm

    Putin kick Sherdukov's ass and delievries already begaun! Su-30SM, Krintazema, Pantsyr-S1

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    Re: Russian Army ATGM Thread

    Post  TR1 on Fri Nov 23, 2012 9:40 pm

    George1 wrote:Putin kick Sherdukov's ass and delievries already begaun! Su-30SM, Krintazema, Pantsyr-S1

    The deliveries had nothing to do with Serdykov being in power.


    Yay Khrisantema is finally in service!

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    Re: Russian Army ATGM Thread

    Post  Austin on Sat Nov 24, 2012 6:50 am

    Why have Kornet and Krizanthema both why not build just one ATGM and then develop it further to make it F&F

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    Re: Russian Army ATGM Thread

    Post  GarryB on Sat Nov 24, 2012 8:23 am

    Each evolved from a different set of requirements and different missile families.

    The main difference is that at 33kgs for the missile the Kornet is not really man portable any more so it has become like TOW or HOT.

    Krisantema was always a vehicle mounted system including both air and ground vehicle just like the Shturm and Ataka missiles it is pretty much replacing.

    We have seen a further improved Kornet-EM with 8.5km and 10km range for AT and general purpose use respectively.

    We haven't seen the performance figures for new model Krisantema.

    Otherwise both are very fast beam riding and/or command guided missiles with 6+km range and 1.2m+ armour penetration capacity.


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    Re: Russian Army ATGM Thread

    Post  TR1 on Sat Nov 24, 2012 9:52 am

    Austin wrote:Why have Kornet and Krizanthema both why not build just one ATGM and then develop it further to make it F&F

    Krizantema is a much more expensive system.

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    Re: Russian Army ATGM Thread

    Post  Cyberspec on Sun Nov 25, 2012 6:01 am

    Maybe the Lenta.ru report above mentioning the Kornets was actually referring to the Khrizantema's ?

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    Russian ATGM

    Post  GarryB on Sun Nov 25, 2012 6:11 am

    The Krizantema System is more expensive because of its MMW radar, but the missiles themselves are cheap enough.

    The more expensive system allows all weather day night capability that Kornet does not.

    I rather suspect that many of the changes applied to the Kornet-EM to double its effective range could be applied to the Krisantema for a similar range and performance increase.

    AFAIK MMW radars can be mass produced fairly cheaply and could be used to create a fire and forget missile in a similar class to MMW Hellfire, though the current design using laser beam riding backup with MMW radar radio command guidance is certainly cheap and simple and allows targets that cannot be clearly distinguished from the background to be engaged. For instance a particular window in a large building.

    Of course their was talk of a new ATGM they were working on for which we don't have any specific information about... it could be a QWIP based Javelin equivalent, or it could be a heavy Hellfire equivalent, or it could be a fire and forget guided RPG type round...


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    fire and forget missiles in the russian military(AGMs and ATGMs)

    Post  KomissarBojanchev on Fri May 17, 2013 1:35 pm

    Why do almost all Russian missiles have SACLOS guidance? Wouldn't heat seeking and SALH be much more efficient? The americans have a lot of experience with them like the hellfire, maverick, javelin(i'm not saying its good but it still is F&F) and while the Russians are superior in all other categories of missile building they are lagging behind in F&F weapons. I've heard that only a few russian AGM prototypes(X-102 is one of them I think) are F%F while all others are wire guided or have laser riding SACLOS guidance.

    Do the Russian armed forces don't have the technology or they think that F&F AGMs and ATGMs are completely pointless?

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