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    Russian Army ATGM Thread

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    medo
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    Re: Russian Army ATGM Thread

    Post  medo on Mon Dec 26, 2011 10:09 am

    Nice pictures Kratos. It seems that one of those Tigers have small Kazakhstan flag on antenna.

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    Re: Russian Army ATGM Thread

    Post  GarryB on Mon Dec 26, 2011 12:43 pm

    Is it just me or are some of the later pictures showing longer missile tubes... perhaps with a different missile?

    These might be Tigr images rather than Kornet EM images, so it might show different missile and weapon options.

    The gun armed versions look interesting... 14.5mm calibre KPV?, or perhaps 23mm calibre KPB?

    The muzzle brakes look different and doesn't look like standard ZU-23 like cannon, and the barrels are too long for 12.7mm and too short for 30mm.

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    Re: Russian Army ATGM Thread

    Post  TR1 on Tue Jan 17, 2012 3:29 am

    http://rutube.ru/tracks/5133579.html

    Nice video, Kornet testing @ Kapustin Yar.

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    Re: Russian Army ATGM Thread

    Post  GarryB on Tue Jan 17, 2012 7:12 am

    Nice vid.

    This is probably one of the 70 new missiles getting tested this year... Smile

    http://en.rian.ru/mlitary_news/20120113/170743544.html

    About 70 new rocket and missile systems will be tested at Russia’s Kapustin Yar test range in 2012, an increase of 150 percent from last year, a Defense Ministry spokesman said on Friday.

    The systems are part of more than 160 ongoing projects, said Col. Vadim Koval, without providing any details.

    Last year, more than 500 missile test launches were made at the Kapustin Yar rocket launch and development site, he added.

    Almost all the missile and rocket related branches and services of the Russian Armed Forces, including the Strategic Missile Forces, the Air Defense Forces, and the Missile Forces and Artillery conduct their tests at Kapustin Yar, located in the Astrakhan region, between the cities of Volgograd and Astrakhan.

    Interesting... they plan to test 70 new missiles and rockets this year, and only tested about 47 new rockets and missiles last year.

    They will probably have more than 500 tests this year I guess...

    The photo provided looks like a target drone, so they might be testing new MANPADS like the Verba missile we keep hearing about.

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    Re: Russian Army ATGM Thread

    Post  TR1 on Tue Jan 17, 2012 9:05 pm

    The news services just use random photos for stories most of the time, don't look too much into it. That looks like a target based on the old Falanga ATGM.

    However shows you the small kind of targets they practice against :p . Doubt an F-35 will have an RCS that low.

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    Re: Russian Army ATGM Thread

    Post  GarryB on Wed Jan 18, 2012 5:29 am

    The news services just use random photos for stories most of the time, don't look too much into it.

    Very true... for stories about missiles they will often just post any old picture of missiles from file.

    That looks like a target based on the old Falanga ATGM.

    Yes, which is why I speculated they were testing MANPADS, they used Falanga and Malyutka for testing Iglas and found for small targets they needed a proximity fuse to be reliable in bringing the targets down... hense the Igla-S has a proximity fuse for use against cruise missiles and other small targets like UAVs.

    Doubt an F-35 will have an RCS that low.

    And they want the F-35 to replace the A-10! sniper

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    Re: Russian Army ATGM Thread

    Post  medo on Wed Jan 18, 2012 4:27 pm

    The news services just use random photos for stories most of the time, don't look too much into it. That looks like a target based on the old Falanga ATGM.

    However shows you the small kind of targets they practice against :p . Doubt an F-35 will have an RCS that low.


    Those old Falanga and Malyutka are regular training targets for MANPADs. Iglas and Strelas are IR guided missiles and they lock on heat signature of ATGM, so RCS here doesn't matter. But you are correct, I also don't think F-35 engine will have as low heat signature as those old ATGMs.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=58N6Plr17GU

    On this video you could see quite bright heat signature of F-22 even without afterburners. I think F-35 engine will be the same hot.


    And they want the F-35 to replace the A-10!

    Optimists. Very Happy

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    Re: Russian Army ATGM Thread

    Post  GarryB on Wed Jan 18, 2012 11:47 pm

    Those old Falanga and Malyutka are regular training targets for MANPADs. Iglas and Strelas are IR guided missiles and they lock on heat signature of ATGM, so RCS here doesn't matter.

    They are also used for testing Osa and TOR along with other target types representing different threat types.

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    Re: Russian Army ATGM Thread

    Post  medo on Thu Jan 19, 2012 3:55 pm

    In that case they are really small RCS targets.

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    Re: Russian Army ATGM Thread

    Post  GarryB on Fri Jan 20, 2012 2:37 am

    With the 2-4kg warhead section they sometimes fit flare dispensors to simulate more difficult targets...

    They can also fit them with luneberg lenses (also called corner reflectors) to increase the RCS to make it better suit simulation of a specific threat.

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    Re: Russian Army ATGM Thread

    Post  TheArmenian on Fri Apr 20, 2012 1:31 am

    Couldn't find a better place to post this video about the Khrizantema anti-tank complex in production:

    http://tvzvezda.ru/news/forces/content/201204190945-c0ld.htm

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    Re: Russian Army ATGM Thread

    Post  GarryB on Fri Apr 20, 2012 3:10 am

    Nice.

    Krisantema is a heavier missile than the Kornet-EM and will likely be the standard Helicopter and light aircraft and UCAV anti armour/anti point target weapon.

    The lighter Kornet-EM will likely be used on Boomerang and Kurganets chassis as a replacement for the AT4/5 launcher on the troop carriers and also on any BMPT type fire support vehicle as an anti helo and long range anti point target weapon.

    The krisantema might even replace the Shturm on light patrol vessels with its higher speed and presumably longer range... eventually.

    I don't understand Russian language... did the video mention any new model missile with perhaps longer range?

    The Krisantema combines laser beam riding guidance with SARH in MMW radar frequencies so there is huge potential for flight profile shaping as the system obviously combines lasers with radar so the precise range to the target should be known. The guidance options mean that a target that has no distinct MMW radar signature like a log bunker can be engaged with the optical autotracker directing a laser beam for the missile to guide. For a target like a moving tank that would be easy to get a MMW radar lock on then the radar can detect and track the target and direct a radar beam at the target which the missile homes in on.

    I would suspect therefore that MMW radar guidance should also be possible against a target detected in the optics of the system if there is sensor fusion and the Thermal sight is slaved to the radar and vice versa, so as well as directing the laser with the autotracker locked on to a target, it could also direct a MMW radar beam on a target locked by the optical auto tracker.

    With precise ranging the missile could be lofted to increase engagement range and to effect a steeper attack angle for better penetration on impact.

    Of course a little further development of an active radar seeker in the MMW frequency would allow the choice of SARH and ARH as well as laser beam riding. Of course the development of low cost IIR seekers using QWIP technology would offer another fire and forget guidance option too.

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    Re: Russian Army ATGM Thread

    Post  medo on Fri Apr 20, 2012 4:50 pm

    I don't understand Russian language... did the video mention any new model missile with perhaps longer range?

    Unfortunately not. Commander of artillery units just made a visit in factory and see Krizanthema production line and they talk about repairs and modernization of artillery equipment.

    The Krisantema combines laser beam riding guidance with SARH in MMW radar frequencies so there is huge potential for flight profile shaping as the system obviously combines lasers with radar so the precise range to the target should be known. The guidance options mean that a target that has no distinct MMW radar signature like a log bunker can be engaged with the optical autotracker directing a laser beam for the missile to guide. For a target like a moving tank that would be easy to get a MMW radar lock on then the radar can detect and track the target and direct a radar beam at the target which the missile homes in on.

    I would suspect therefore that MMW radar guidance should also be possible against a target detected in the optics of the system if there is sensor fusion and the Thermal sight is slaved to the radar and vice versa, so as well as directing the laser with the autotracker locked on to a target, it could also direct a MMW radar beam on a target locked by the optical auto tracker.

    Ka-52 helicopter and Krizanthema-S are actually first ATGM complexes, which could use ATGMs in radar and optical laser guiding mode day and night, what only means tanks could not be invisible for them. They could put RAM on it and tank will be visible in Thermal imager, if they put thermal stealth cover, it will be visible on radar. Potential is huge and giving here Hermes ATGMs, it will only extend its very long range and improve penetration capabilities.

    About sensor fusion, it is hard to say anything, because all known datas are for older prototype with old day time only optical sight with missile guiding channel and this one could not be fused with radar guiding and that was reason,why it have to launch two missiles, one to be guided by radar and one by optical sight. The new day/night sight with TV and thermal imager is more easy to connect with computer, so sensor fusion could be reality and changing guidance modes in time of missile flight could be possible. But I don't know if they actually make this kind of fusion inside krizanthema.

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    Re: Russian Army ATGM Thread

    Post  GarryB on Sat Apr 21, 2012 1:38 am

    The thing about sensor fusion is getting round camouflage.

    For instance right now with a MMW radar and a thermal sighting system equipped with current Krisantema missiles a helo has the basic choices for detection and engagement as the current Krisantema vehicle which is SARH with radar or laser beam riding, but with night and all weather capability using thermal sights for optics.

    In other words to find a target you can scan with a radar or you can find it with a thermal imager sight and then fire a missile at that target.

    The problem is of course that radar can be defeated with radar stealth and thermal imagers can be defeated with IR screens/camouflage. Something like Nakidka would reduce the detection range of the system making it rather less effective.

    The point is that with sensor fusion you can add other data sources like LLLTV and LIDAR that will enable a radar stealthy low thermal emission target to be revealed at extended ranges. As I mentioned they are working on image intensification equipment that can detect the difference between natural colours and artificial colours so a simple camouflage net will glow in the LLLTV channel even if it matches the background in radar and IR so a laser beam riding missile can still be directed at the target, or a pencil radar beam can be directed at the centre of the target for the missile to home in on.

    Obviously ideally you will want fire and forget weapons and with the development of lock on after launch IIR seeking missiles like Morfei I think QWIP sensors and MMW radar ARH sensors are the way forward there.

    Most threats in the NATO tank park have fire on the move capability and by firing on the move they are safer from unguided weapons like RPGs, but moving around the place will expend an enormous amount of fuel and make them vulnerable to helicopter threats...

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    Re: Russian Army ATGM Thread

    Post  medo on Sat Apr 21, 2012 12:57 pm

    The problem is of course that radar can be defeated with radar stealth and thermal imagers can be defeated with IR screens/camouflage. Something like Nakidka would reduce the detection range of the system making it rather less effective.

    The point is that with sensor fusion you can add other data sources like LLLTV and LIDAR that will enable a radar stealthy low thermal emission target to be revealed at extended ranges. As I mentioned they are working on image intensification equipment that can detect the difference between natural colours and artificial colours so a simple camouflage net will glow in the LLLTV channel even if it matches the background in radar and IR so a laser beam riding missile can still be directed at the target, or a pencil radar beam can be directed at the centre of the target for the missile to home in on.

    Radar stealth covers and IR stealth covers could work against planes, which operate behind lines, but on the battlefield you could just fire few illuminating rounds and you will see with naked eyes those tanks. Also army units have enough II night sights to see them.



    For instance right now with a MMW radar and a thermal sighting system equipped with current Krisantema missiles a helo has the basic choices for detection and engagement as the current Krisantema vehicle which is SARH with radar or laser beam riding, but with night and all weather capability using thermal sights for optics.

    In other words to find a target you can scan with a radar or you can find it with a thermal imager sight and then fire a missile at that target.

    I think both Ka-52 and Krizanthema could search targets with both radar and EO sensors and engage two targets simultaneously one with radar and one with optical mode.



    Obviously ideally you will want fire and forget weapons and with the development of lock on after launch IIR seeking missiles like Morfei I think QWIP sensors and MMW radar ARH sensors are the way forward there.

    True, this would be ideal, but I think this sensors are too expensive for ATGMs, also as in many discussions, there are two philosophies of ATGMs, one is fire and forget with IIR seeker, which fly high and slow and could be shot down by modern air defense and the other is with guided missile, which fly low and fast to reduce time of flight and to prevent shotting down the missile. What is better depend on your needs.

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    Re: Russian Army ATGM Thread

    Post  GarryB on Sat Apr 21, 2012 11:40 pm

    Radar stealth covers and IR stealth covers could work against planes, which operate behind lines, but on the battlefield you could just fire few illuminating rounds and you will see with naked eyes those tanks. Also army units have enough II night sights to see them.

    But seeing them is just part of the problem and it means that at a stroke you Ka-52 shifts from 16km detection and engagement, night and all weather, to optical range even on bright clear sunny days.

    The purpose of sensor fusion is to combine the attributes of the sensors and maximise performance... the Pilot and crew don't care what sensor detected the target, the focus is detecting targets and especially threats at max possible ranges so they can be identified and dealt with or avoided.

    I think both Ka-52 and Krizanthema could search targets with both radar and EO sensors and engage two targets simultaneously one with radar and one with optical mode.


    It certainly can, but AFAIK if it is a snowstorm then optics wont be effective and neither will the laser... and what if the target is a log bunker that doesn't stand out from the trees around it on radar?

    Even if it is a clear sunny day and you can detect the log bunker from 12km or more, if you can't get a radar lock then you can only fire a laser beam riding missile.

    True, this would be ideal, but I think this sensors are too expensive for ATGMs, also as in many discussions, there are two philosophies of ATGMs, one is fire and forget with IIR seeker, which fly high and slow and could be shot down by modern air defense and the other is with guided missile, which fly low and fast to reduce time of flight and to prevent shotting down the missile. What is better depend on your needs.

    QWIP sensors... once mature, should become as cheap to make as CCD sensor chips... a 640 x 480 sensor might cost a dollar or two... cheap enough to use in a missile.

    BTW there is no reason why IIR guided missiles need to fly high and slow... the IR versions of Kh-25 and Kh-29 are both highly supersonic with flight speeds of 500m/s plus.

    I think there is an overriding principle that ATGMs must be cheap... as they are the expendible component of the system and to be useful they must be able to be used in large numbers to be effective... both in training and combat.

    Having said that a combination of manually guided and fire and forget makes your force much more flexible, and in terms of an expensive helicopter spending a little extra cash to enable it to fire at standoff distances and then leave the area rapidly make that expensive helo much safer.

    A range of engagement options would be ideal... active radar homing sensors for ground targets are apparantly fairly cheap to mass produce and combined with cheap IIR and laser beam riding missiles I think would result in the best final result of a balance of low cost with fire and forget capability and lethality.

    BTW laser guided Kh-25ML has a top flight speed of 870m/s and an average speed to 10km of 670m/s.
    The radar homing versions with 40km range have average flight speeds of 450m/s with the higher peak speed of 920m/s.


    Last edited by GarryB on Sun Apr 22, 2012 11:22 am; edited 1 time in total

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    Re: Russian Army ATGM Thread

    Post  medo on Sun Apr 22, 2012 10:19 am

    BTW there is no reason why IIR guided missiles need to fly high and slow... the IR versions of Kh-25 and Kh-29 are both highly supersonic with flight speeds of 500m/s plus.

    I apologize, discussions were about Javelin/Spike against Kornet and both Javelin and Spike fly high and slow comparing to Kornet, which fly low and fast. TV/IR versions of Kh-25 and Kh-29 fly a little faster than 1 Mach, laser versions are faster ones.



    But seeing them is just part of the problem and it means that at a stroke you Ka-52 shifts from 16km detection and engagement, night and all weather, to optical range even on bright clear sunny days.

    The purpose of sensor fusion is to combine the attributes of the sensors and maximise performance... the Pilot and crew don't care what sensor detected the target, the focus is detecting targets and especially threats at max possible ranges so they can be identified and dealt with or avoided.

    Absolutely, all data are for ideal conditions, any weather obstacles (fog, smoke, heavy rain, snow, etc) reduce detecting capabilities and engagement range. Combining different sensors, which work in different specters is proper way to overcome those obstacles.



    It certainly can, but AFAIK if it is a snowstorm then optics wont be effective and neither will the laser... and what if the target is a log bunker that doesn't stand out from the trees around it on radar?

    Weather conditions are equal for both sides. If you can't see them, than they also can't see you. I think in such bad weather you won't use helicopters, but artillery.

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    Re: Russian Army ATGM Thread

    Post  GarryB on Sun Apr 22, 2012 11:17 am

    Can't see them halting combat because the weather is bad.

    I would think because of their radars helicopters would be more useful to send up than most types of UAV.

    Optical and IR guided weapons will be less effective as will small arms fire, and radar guided weapons would not be able to use optical alternatives to scanning the skies so the use of radar to find the helos will betray targets for the helos to engage I suppose.

    Regarding missile speed you actually gave me an idea... the longest range Hermes has a booster rocket motor that propels the missile to about 1,300m/s... if they could change the 30kgs warhead from a dual purpose HEAT/Frag warhead into a long 25kg rod of DU maybe 3 metres long and 30-40mm wide, mounted terminal guidance in the nose with control surfaces with the rest of the missile body solid rocket fuel to accelerate the missile to something like 2km/s out to about 12km or so you would have the ultimate anti armour weapon with the very high flight speed delivering excellent terminal effects and short launch to impact times... of course a 30kg HEAT warhead on its own should be effective enough but the problem with HEAT charges is that their penetration is directly proportional to their diameter but large diameter means slower heavier missile...

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    Re: Russian Army ATGM Thread

    Post  medo on Mon Jul 02, 2012 6:45 pm

    http://vpk.name/news/71450_Tulskoe_KBP_rasschityivaet_chto_Minoboronyi_primet_na_vooruzhenie_kompleksyi_KornetEM.html

    KBP claim, that Russian military will buy Kornet-EM to protect S-400 regiments together with Pantsir-S1, where it also use Pantsir commands to easier engage flying targets, but mostly it will protect them against ground targets.

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    Re: Russian Army ATGM Thread

    Post  GarryB on Tue Jul 03, 2012 4:07 am

    Perhaps it is a short term measure?

    I would expect that the ground based Hermes would be a better solution to defending a site from ground attack as its range performance is double (20km vs 10km) and also the unification of missiles with Pantsir-S1 means against some targets the Hermes could be used against aerial targets... from what we know the SALH, MMW radar homing, and IIR homing models of Hermes might also potentially be used against aerial targets as easily as against ground targets with the Pantsir-S1 vehicles tracking the aerial targets and using its command guidance link to direct the missiles to close enough to get their own lock on the targets.

    Normally they guide the Pantsir-S1 missile right in for the kill but using Hermes missiles which also use radio command to the target area you could deal with a much larger number of attackers as the missiles will handle the terminal phase of the engagement themselves. Plus the ground based model of Hermes has been depicted in mockups as showing up to 40 launch tubes, so even if you fill them with Pantsir-S1 missiles that means they could drive around a large base where needed and launch their missiles controlled by Pantsir-S1 vehicles so the problems of reloading the Pantsir-S1 after an attack is reduced... even after hundreds of cruise missiles are used to attack the Hermes vehicles will be quicker to reload and the Pantsir-S1 vehicles will be ready to fire too.
    The range of the Hermes means that it can engage targets at extended ranges... depending on the model, 20, 40 or even 100km.

    I suspect the main issue with Kornet-EM will be speed, with a flight speed of just over supersonic levels it will take about 3s per km so a 10km range engagement will take half a minute, whereas a Pantsir-S1 missile travelling at 1.3km/s will take rather less. Another factor will be the difference between the warhead weights which will also be significant.

    On the whole I think the Kornet-EM will be an excellent place holder till Hermes is ready.


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    Re: Russian Army ATGM Thread

    Post  medo on Sat Jul 07, 2012 1:30 pm

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1IgbJS3XPbQ

    Off Topic

    Not exactly Russian related, but Iran start with production of their own Kornet-E ATGMs. I wonder if they bought them with blueprints from Russia or they just reverse engineered Kornet from Syria or Hesbolah.

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    Re: Russian Army ATGM Thread

    Post  TR1 on Sat Jul 07, 2012 9:05 pm

    medo wrote:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1IgbJS3XPbQ

    Off Topic

    Not exactly Russian related, but Iran start with production of their own Kornet-E ATGMs. I wonder if they bought them with blueprints from Russia or they just reverse engineered Kornet from Syria or Hesbolah.

    Are we sure those are even Kornets, not a crappy local knock off?

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    Re: Russian Army ATGM Thread

    Post  GarryB on Sun Jul 08, 2012 3:00 am

    Not the most exciting video Medo...

    Certainly a laser beam riding missile is not the most complex technology to copy, and for the users it has a range of advantages including no wires to snag or break so it can be fired from moving platforms like vehicles and helos and UAVs, plus to jam the signal the enemy would need to put the jammer between the missile and the launcher... which is pretty tricky.
    The main advantage is missile speed, which can be much faster than with a wire dragger, which seriously cuts down engagement times...

    BTW according to Wiki the Russians sold 80 missiles to Eritria for $170,000, which works out at just over 2 thousand dollars a missile... compared with Javelin that is incredibly cheap... actually compared with an RPG rocket that is very cheap... the bigger rockets are about $750 each and don't have a range of 5.5km.

    Don't know what the new missiles cost, but I think most of the improvements are in the guidance system so the missiles wont be that much more expensive.


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    Re: Russian Army ATGM Thread

    Post  Cyberspec on Sun Jul 08, 2012 9:10 am

    TR1 wrote:Are we sure those are even Kornets, not a crappy local knock off?

    They sure look like it



    They're "crappy" based on what?

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    Re: Russian Army ATGM Thread

    Post  TR1 on Sun Jul 08, 2012 10:13 am

    Based on Iran's defense industry as a whole.

    THey are not known for top of the line stuff in any field.

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