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    Soviet SAM systems. What are your thoughts?

    Isos
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    Post  Isos on Fri Apr 20, 2018 7:33 pm

    AlfaT8 wrote:The recent claims of electronic warfare in Syria had me thinking about how current and modernized AD-systems would work.
    And although IRST's were meant as a back-up, but could it also serve as a 3rd factor for authentication with respects to short-to-medium AD-systems?
    I mean we have the Search Radar then the Targeting Radar and finally the IRST.

    In Soviet times, perhaps the technology for identifying target at that range wasn't doable, but now with current IRST systems such a thing should be very simple.
    Or am i way off, what are your thoughts guys?

    You have different search radars in the integrated air def system. Before you turn on the search radar of your air defence system, you will use long range rdars like p-18 or Nebo which are much harder detected by fighters because they need a big antenna and are very long range 300-600km. Those radar will tell you where the fighters come from so you can guess if they are bad or friends.

    Then when they are in range you use the search radar of your system which will be detected by the fighters but if they are in range of missiles you don't care. They are short legs than the first one I mentioned. I think for pantsir it is something like around 50km and tracking radar at 28km. So it should be detected by passive RWR of fighters at 100km.

    When you jam a radar you have no idea if it works. The radar crew if well trained can go through your jaming. They can also use other radars to track you. They can also wait turned off and use optics to find you while and p-18 far away from both of you will give your position in real time.

    Moreover they don't need to identify you. If you jam the  ground radars it means you are a bad guy.
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    Post  GarryB on Sat Apr 21, 2018 2:24 am

    It simplier to use a thousand of cluster munitions inside the sa-5 and release them from 1km altitude to cover all the airfield.

    Of course it would be simpler to use cluster munitions... but not really effective.

    First of all how to you get a good even pattern spread of munitions?

    How do you ensure that 99% of those munitions don't just land in open ground and explode harmlessly?

    1% is likely to hit the runway,, but even then the chances of getting the air defence systems and aircraft sitting on the runway is poor.

    In Soviet times, perhaps the technology for identifying target at that range wasn't doable, but now with current IRST systems such a thing should be very simple.
    Or am i way off, what are your thoughts guys?

    What are you expecting the IRST to do?

    Basically, what it will do is detect hot spots... in the air it is probably an aircraft, but on the ground it could be a black coloured rock that has been heated up by the sun so that it stands out as a potential target.

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    Post  AlfaT8 on Sat Apr 21, 2018 6:04 am

    GarryB wrote:
    In Soviet times, perhaps the technology for identifying target at that range wasn't doable, but now with current IRST systems such a thing should be very simple.
    Or am i way off, what are your thoughts guys?

    What are you expecting the IRST to do?

    Basically, what it will do is detect hot spots... in the air it is probably an aircraft, but on the ground it could be a black coloured rock that has been heated up by the sun so that it stands out as a potential target.


    That's the thing, in the event of electronic warfare, like the one recently claimed in Syria, where fake boogies reportedly appeared, would the IRST be used as a visual authenticator before firing?
    Isos
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    Post  Isos on Sat Apr 21, 2018 8:55 am

    New post  GarryB Today at 2:24 am

    It simplier to use a thousand of cluster munitions inside the sa-5 and release them from 1km altitude to cover all the airfield.

    Of course it would be simpler to use cluster munitions... but not really effective.

    First of all how to you get a good even pattern spread of munitions?

    How do you ensure that 99% of those munitions don't just land in open ground and explode harmlessly?

    1% is likely to hit the runway,, but even then the chances of getting the air defence systems and aircraft sitting on the runway is poor.

    Well you can still add a gps/glonass receiver for each munitions and make them bigger.

    The chances are not poor to hit aircraft. If you want to destroy an airbase you don't use one missile but tens of them. And then you send some bombers finish the work.

    Ten missiles with hundreds cluster munitions inside them will destroy the runway unless if it misses by 2 km. The outdoor parked aircraft won't have a chance too. You can also mix warheads for your missiles some can be guided to destroy precise targets like air def systems or the middke of the runway.

    Depend from what altitude you release them, cluster munition can cover a large surface. Everything inside will be touched.
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    Post  Isos on Mon Oct 14, 2019 9:07 pm

    Kolos manpad with seven 30mm rockets. So simple but would be so effectuve against helecopters or ground targets. It could counter APS on tanks from the sides.

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    Post  GarryB on Tue Oct 15, 2019 3:48 am

    At 30mm I am guessing they are just unguided rockets... in which case a light truck mounted 57mm 32 shot rocket pod might be a cheaper option in the sense it is already developed and operational...

    The rudimentary sights suggest it is a short range last ditch weapon that might be successful in volleys at targets, but you might be better off firing a 40mm grenade launcher at the target instead...

    Might be useful for using up APS munitions on enemy tanks I guess, but again a 40mm grenade launcher with rounds fitted with luneberg lenses so they look big and a threat might be simpler and cheaper and more multi purpose.
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    Post  Cyberspec on Fri Oct 18, 2019 7:28 am

    Came across an article on the Kolos. Apparently the idea was to develop a cheap AA weapon that could be supplied to the Vietnamese during the Vietnam War to use mainly against helicopters. But it never took off...not long afterwards, the Strela-2 entered service

    The Germans were working on a similar weapon at the end of WWII

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    Arrow https://en.topwar.ru/41227-perenosnoy-zenitnyy-raketnyy-kompleks-kolos.html
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    Post  Isos on Fri Oct 18, 2019 9:19 am

    @GarryB: it was supposed to be a AA. Rockets have a straight flight path while grenades from grenade luncher not really. At close range it should be very easy to use against helicopters. Ground attack woukd have been a second role IMO.


    @Cyberspec: was it tested ?
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    Post  GarryB on Sat Oct 19, 2019 1:53 am

    @GarryB: it was supposed to be a AA. Rockets have a straight flight path while grenades from grenade luncher not really. At close range it should be very easy to use against helicopters. Ground attack woukd have been a second role IMO.

    No, rockets don't have a straight flight path.

    If those rockets had their motors burning as they left that tube the rocket blast would kill or seriously injure the person holding it... without a blast shield or special body armour for the user that means the rockets burn inside the rocket tubes only... so once they leave the tube they are ballistic like any grenade or cannon shell or bullet.

    When firing a volley of interceptors like that accuracy is not critical... in fact a good spread of rockets improves the chances of some good hits.

    A 30mm or 40mm grenade launcher would be much more versatile and effective... with relatively short rocket tubes those rockets wont be particularly high velocity, so they would pretty much rely on HE capacity to be effective, so a grenade launcher might have smaller HE payloads but with a 30 plus round belt feed system could continue to shower the target with rounds. They are also already in service and the ammo is already in production.

    With a simple laser range finder and ballistics computer a sighting system could generate an aim point for the user to get most grenades on target with the first burst.

    There are a lot of reports of the Afghan rebels using RPG rockets against helos taking advantage of their safety fuzes that will detonate the standard anti armour rocket at a range of about 950m. By launching rockets at a helicopter base or landing helicopters from about 950m you have the chance of getting an airburst amongst the helos, or hitting the ground near the helos which would also set them off...

    A new model RPG with simple gyro stabilisation would be a relatively simple and cheap way of greatly improving the accuracy of the rockets without making them super expensive... Smerch and Grad rockets use simple gyro stabilisation for the rockets to keep the volleys closer together and therefore more effective.
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    Post  Cyberspec on Sat Oct 19, 2019 9:58 am

    Isos wrote:@GarryB:  it was supposed to be a AA. Rockets have a straight flight path while grenades from grenade luncher not really. At close range it should be very easy to use against helicopters. Ground attack woukd have been a second role IMO.


    @Cyberspec: was it tested ?

    Yes between 1967-68. It showed a reasonable level of accuracy against a hovering helicopter and was very cheap to produce...36 rubles for the launcher and another 31 rubles for a pack of rockets. Nevertheless at the end of the tests it was judged as having no prospects and didn't enter service with neither the Soviets or the Vietnamese
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    Post  GarryB on Sun Oct 20, 2019 1:43 am

    Yes between 1967-68. It showed a reasonable level of accuracy against a hovering helicopter and was very cheap to produce...36 rubles for the launcher and another 31 rubles for a pack of rockets. Nevertheless at the end of the tests it was judged as having no prospects and didn't enter service with neither the Soviets or the Vietnamese

    They probably realised that they could simply get 20 guys with AKs and RPG-2s and just everyone fire at the helo... Most transport helos are very vulnerable to ground fire... during the Vietnam war era especially.
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    Post  GarryB on Sun Oct 20, 2019 1:50 am

    Sorry... a couple of old posts I want to comment on....

    That's the thing, in the event of electronic warfare, like the one recently claimed in Syria, where fake boogies reportedly appeared, would the IRST be used as a visual authenticator before firing?

    Using IRST for ID is pointless... so much so that I suspect you don't mean IRSTs, you mean IR imaging systems like thermal imagers. An IIR system would be useful because it creates an image of the target so there is some basis for identification... with IRST you see hot points... a dot... a target of undefined shape or size... looking up into the air it could be the sun but its position is pretty clear so it can be eliminated from the display... other heat sources in the air are potential aircraft or munitions and therefore targets worth attention.

    Well you can still add a gps/glonass receiver for each munitions and make them bigger.

    That would make them bigger and more expensive so less would be carried... and to what purpose?

    If you know the precise coordinates of the targets why use a cluster bomblets... cluster bomblets are like a shotgun blast... you use it against small elusive targets that tend to move after you launch your attack. If you know exactly where the target is you use a rifle... or missile with a high level of precision.

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