Military Forum for Russian and Global Defence Issues


    1999 NATO bombing of Yugoslavia

    Share
    avatar
    GarryB

    Posts : 18902
    Points : 19458
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Re: 1999 NATO bombing of Yugoslavia

    Post  GarryB on Sun May 07, 2017 3:17 am

    They did come up against MiG-29s in Serbia, which were soundly defeated due to massive AWACS/EW/numeric advantages.

    And that is what they trade on... the MiG-29 failed in Serbian hands so it must be crap.

    Lets ignore the fact that the entire command and control network was non existent. Lets ignore that the aircraft that got airborne were basically on their own with faulty equipment that had not be serviced for years.

    It is a bit like a game of cricket where one team has 2 or three players up against a team with 20 players. It does not matter who any of those players are... even if the three are the best players who ever played and the 20 players are fairly ordinary, because there are no match officials and those 20 players can "play" it any way they want.

    Swap those MiGs to fully serviced and up to date F-16s with pilots fully trained to use them effectively and the results would not have been much different... with AWACS the NATO side knew exactly who was in the air and where and could send groups of fighters to intercept. I am sure the leader of that group took the opportunity to launch an AMRAAM from max range so he could get crowing rights for shooting down a real enemy aircraft... there is no chivalry involved... they were there to murder men defending their country from foreign international aggression. A moral war fought immorally. Ironic.

    marat

    Posts : 225
    Points : 223
    Join date : 2015-04-26

    Re: 1999 NATO bombing of Yugoslavia

    Post  marat on Sun May 07, 2017 12:54 pm

    GarryB wrote:
    ...
    Lets ignore the fact that the entire command and control network was non existent.
    ...
    WTF you are talking about???
    This is simple BS.

    Till the last day cc network was working.
    avatar
    galicije83

    Posts : 43
    Points : 45
    Join date : 2015-04-30
    Age : 38
    Location : Novi Sad, Serbia

    Re: 1999 NATO bombing of Yugoslavia

    Post  galicije83 on Sun May 07, 2017 6:00 pm

    [quote="GarryB"]


    Lets ignore the fact that the entire command and control network was non existent. Lets ignore that the aircraft that got airborne were basically on their own with faulty equipment that had not be serviced for years.

    GarryB ur wrong about network and command....trough entire war this network and command exist and was operational. Our pilots wasnt alone in air when they airborne they know where they go and also they gets information from command. On March 26th 2 our MiG was airborne and was send first to the east of Batajnica air port, to attack group of NATO planes, then after couple of minutes command gave them new targets west from their position. They turn back and go to chase that NATO group. Both our planes was shot down in Bosnia air space. Cap first class Zoran Radosavljevic was killed in his MiG 29, Major Slobodan Peric avoided one AMMRAM but next hit him, and he ejected when he found that the plane are uncontrollable. Our command didnt gave them order to back to airport when the Maj Peric asked them that they go over the line (state border)...because of that we lost one of our pilots for nothing....on both planes radars stop workking after pilots turn them On, on their max power...On Maj Peric MiG SPO didnt work also, on Cap Radosavljevic MiG SPO work and he tells Peric that they are both was engaged by NATO plane...

    Our best MiG29 pilot at that time Predrag Milutinovic Grof out maneuver dozen NATO AMMRAM rockets with his MiG 29. in single combat mission...but he was shot down by our SAMs when he was back to Nis airport at low altitude....
    avatar
    Isos

    Posts : 2498
    Points : 2492
    Join date : 2015-11-06

    Re: 1999 NATO bombing of Yugoslavia

    Post  Isos on Sun May 07, 2017 6:45 pm

    galicije83 wrote:
    GarryB wrote:


    Lets ignore the fact that the entire command and control network was non existent. Lets ignore that the aircraft that got airborne were basically on their own with faulty equipment that had not be serviced for years.

    GarryB ur wrong about network and command....trough entire war this network and command exist and was operational. Our pilots wasnt alone in air when they airborne they know where they go and also they gets information from command. On March 26th 2 our MiG was airborne and was send first to the east of Batajnica air port, to attack group  of NATO planes, then after couple of minutes command gave them new targets west from their position. They turn back and go to chase that NATO group. Both our planes was shot down in Bosnia air space. Cap first class Zoran Radosavljevic was killed in his MiG 29, Major Slobodan Peric avoided one AMMRAM but next hit him, and he ejected when he found that the plane are uncontrollable. Our command didnt gave them order to back to airport when the Maj Peric asked them that they  go over the line (state border)...because of that we lost one of our pilots for nothing....on both planes radars stop workking after pilots turn them On, on their max  power...On Maj Peric MiG SPO didnt work also, on Cap Radosavljevic MiG SPO work and he tells Peric that they are both was engaged by NATO plane...

    Our best MiG29 pilot at that time Predrag Milutinovic Grof out maneuver dozen NATO AMMRAM rockets with his MiG 29. in single combat mission...but he was shot down by our SAMs when he was back to Nis airport at low altitude....

    I've seen that some of them managed to get locks on NATO fighter but missile couldn't be lunched.

    NATO results are very bad at then end. They engaged hundred of fighters and all the support they had against maybe 10 Mig-29 that could fly. With decent radars, fiighters and EW complexes against them, they would have lost much more.
    avatar
    GarryB

    Posts : 18902
    Points : 19458
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Re: 1999 NATO bombing of Yugoslavia

    Post  GarryB on Mon May 08, 2017 3:54 am

    WTF you are talking about???
    This is simple BS.

    Till the last day cc network was working.

    So what you are saying is that Serbia had a full and complete air picture 24/7 and was able to direct its aircraft to attack threats without interference?

    Really?

    So it was incompetent pilots?

    marat

    Posts : 225
    Points : 223
    Join date : 2015-04-26

    Re: 1999 NATO bombing of Yugoslavia

    Post  marat on Mon May 08, 2017 1:05 pm

    GarryB wrote:
    WTF you are talking about???
    This is simple BS.

    Till the last day cc network was working.

    So what you are saying is that Serbia had a full and complete air picture 24/7 and was able to direct its aircraft to attack threats without interference?

    Really?

    So it was incompetent pilots?

    No country have 24x7 total awareness of air situation in war. But that do not meant that CC was destroyed. That is pure BS.
    avatar
    PapaDragon

    Posts : 7353
    Points : 7447
    Join date : 2015-04-26
    Location : Fort Evil, Serbia

    Re: 1999 NATO bombing of Yugoslavia

    Post  PapaDragon on Mon May 08, 2017 2:29 pm


    Guys this entire argument you have here is pointless.

    Back in '99 we could have had fleet of 100 F-22 Raptors in the air the moment war started and it would have still made no difference whatsoever because numerical superiority of NATO was insane.

    There were more enemy jets coming at us than those theoretical 100 Raptors would have had missiles loaded on them.

    You will need different example for this discussion.
    avatar
    Isos

    Posts : 2498
    Points : 2492
    Join date : 2015-11-06

    Re: 1999 NATO bombing of Yugoslavia

    Post  Isos on Mon May 08, 2017 2:53 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:
    Guys this entire argument you have here is pointless.

    Back in '99 we could have had fleet of 100 F-22 Raptors in the air the moment war started and it would have still made no difference whatsoever because numerical superiority of NATO was insane.

    There were more enemy jets coming at us than those theoretical 100 Raptors would have had missiles loaded on them.  

    You will need different example for this discussion.

    Do you have an average of how many nato fighter were in the air at the same time ?
    avatar
    GarryB

    Posts : 18902
    Points : 19458
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Yugoslavian MiG-29s

    Post  GarryB on Fri May 12, 2017 9:45 am

    Do you have an average of how many nato fighter were in the air at the same time ?

    They had enough AWACS aircraft and regional assets to detect Serb aircraft taking off 24/7.

    It wouldn't matter which Serb aircraft got airborne whether it was 3 MiG-29s with non functioning radars and obsolete export model AAMs or 100. If it was 100 they would simply sit 60km away and pick them off with AMRAAM. If it was 3 then send in a dozen F-16s to attack from behind also with AMRAAM.

    The whole purpose of a command and control system is to find the enemy and to concentrate your forces to deal with them.

    With AWACS coverage you can watch their major airfields and when something takes off you can send appropriate assets to take them out. It means you don't need to constantly patrol air space in the hope of catching them in the air.

    No country have 24x7 total awareness of air situation in war. But that do not meant that CC was destroyed. That is pure BS.

    A command and control system that has no idea where the enemy is and cannot communicate with its fighter pilots is not a functioning system.

    Those serb pilots fought practically blind and is not a reasonable way to judge the performance of the aircraft they flew or them as pilots.

    It would take serious courage to get into an aircraft knowing it likely does not have a functioning radar against the best NATO can send.
    avatar
    Militarov

    Posts : 5982
    Points : 6009
    Join date : 2015-09-02
    Location : Serbia

    Re: 1999 NATO bombing of Yugoslavia

    Post  Militarov on Sun May 28, 2017 2:51 pm

    GarryB wrote:
    Do you have an average of how many nato fighter were in the air at the same time ?

    They had enough AWACS aircraft and regional assets to detect Serb aircraft taking off 24/7.

    It wouldn't matter which Serb aircraft got airborne whether it was 3 MiG-29s with non functioning radars and obsolete export model AAMs or 100. If it was 100 they would simply sit 60km away and pick them off with AMRAAM. If it was 3 then send in a dozen F-16s to attack from behind also with AMRAAM.

    The whole purpose of a command and control system is to find the enemy and to concentrate your forces to deal with them.

    With AWACS coverage you can watch their major airfields and when something takes off you can send appropriate assets to take them out. It means you don't need to constantly patrol air space in the hope of catching them in the air.

    No country have 24x7 total awareness of air situation in war. But that do not meant that CC was destroyed. That is pure BS.

    A command and control system that has no idea where the enemy is and cannot communicate with its fighter pilots is not a functioning system.

    Those serb pilots fought practically blind and is not a reasonable way to judge the performance of the aircraft they flew or them as pilots.

    It would take serious courage to get into an aircraft knowing it likely does not have a functioning radar against the best NATO can send.

    We more than once engaged own aircraft in the air, that says enough on whole this topic.
    avatar
    GarryB

    Posts : 18902
    Points : 19458
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Re: 1999 NATO bombing of Yugoslavia

    Post  GarryB on Mon May 29, 2017 7:01 am

    We more than once engaged own aircraft in the air, that says enough on whole this topic.

    And a layman would say that was proof they were useless.

    Someone who thinks for themselves however... like myself, would suggest that this is just proof they took off blind.

    History is full of examples of pilots getting excited and shooting down their own wingman with missiles... even when they have functioning radars and ground control...
    avatar
    Isos

    Posts : 2498
    Points : 2492
    Join date : 2015-11-06

    Re: 1999 NATO bombing of Yugoslavia

    Post  Isos on Sat Feb 10, 2018 12:10 pm

    @Miltarov I think it was you who said serbian air defence used mig 21 radar to protect their land based radar from anti radiation missiles.

    Was it successfull ? How hard is it to do this and how was it actually done? Did they switch on mig 21 radars when they detected the lunch or were they always turned on ?

    Does russia have similar methodes to protect its air defence systems ? Would it be good to mount cheap radars on land drones that would go some hundreds metres from the main radars and could be switch on to attract anti radiation missiles ?
    avatar
    GarryB

    Posts : 18902
    Points : 19458
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Re: 1999 NATO bombing of Yugoslavia

    Post  GarryB on Wed Feb 14, 2018 10:22 am

    The Soviets already had emitters that operate with major ground based radar that emit the same signal as the radar they are operating with... if a threat ARM is detected the main radar stops radiating and the decoy transmitter activates directing fake signals at the incoming threat and also other nearby objects... a pencil beam directed at a tree can make the tree look like a radiating object... if you can get the ARM to hit the tree then mission accomplished.

    If the missile hits your decoy then mission accomplished too.

    Most of the time however the TOR or Pantsir will be intercepting that incoming ARM and the main SAM radar will continue operating while the main SAM will be shooting down the aircraft that launched the ARM in the first place.
    avatar
    Militarov

    Posts : 5982
    Points : 6009
    Join date : 2015-09-02
    Location : Serbia

    Re: 1999 NATO bombing of Yugoslavia

    Post  Militarov on Fri Feb 16, 2018 3:26 am

    Isos wrote:@Miltarov I think it was you who said serbian air defence used mig 21 radar to protect their land based radar from anti radiation missiles.

    Was it successfull ? How hard is it to do this and how was it actually done? Did they switch on mig 21 radars when they detected the lunch or were they always turned on ?

    Does russia have similar methodes to protect its air defence systems ? Would it be good to mount cheap radars on land drones that would go some hundreds metres from the main radars and could be switch on to attract anti radiation missiles ?

    Old retired radars were fixed for such roles few times, radars from anti-ship missiles... radars from retired MiGs... everything was tried. Was fairly successful lets say. They would turn them on when long range radars detected intrusions, to get attention from our valuable sources of radiation lets say. To try and make them waste anti-rad missiles. We made even few dozen of "real" radar decoys.

    Pointless in our situation for most part but better something than nothing.
    avatar
    Isos

    Posts : 2498
    Points : 2492
    Join date : 2015-11-06

    Re: 1999 NATO bombing of Yugoslavia

    Post  Isos on Sun Feb 18, 2018 1:24 am

    Militarov wrote:
    Isos wrote:@Miltarov I think it was you who said serbian air defence used mig 21 radar to protect their land based radar from anti radiation missiles.

    Was it successfull ? How hard is it to do this and how was it actually done? Did they switch on mig 21 radars when they detected the lunch or were they always turned on ?

    Does russia have similar methodes to protect its air defence systems ? Would it be good to mount cheap radars on land drones that would go some hundreds metres from the main radars and could be switch on to attract anti radiation missiles ?

    Old retired radars were fixed for such roles few times, radars from anti-ship missiles... radars from retired MiGs... everything was tried. Was fairly successful lets say. They would turn them on when long range radars detected intrusions, to get attention from our valuable sources of radiation lets say. To try and make them waste anti-rad missiles. We made even few dozen of "real" radar decoys.

    Pointless in our situation for most part but better something than nothing.

    So it is possible to use a basic radar like the one from mig-21 and program it to lock onto target just to make them lunch ARM.

    And what was the average detection range of serbian ground based radars against f-16, f-15, mirages and AWACS ?

    What do you think of the P-18 radar ? It is said to be good against LO aircraft like f-117. Do you know its range against the f-117 ?

    And what do you think of this upgrade ? http://www.kbradar.by/en/products/radiolokatsiya/modernizatsiya-i-remont-rls-i-zenitnogo-raketnogo-vooruzheniya/99/

    Do you think its worth upgrading such radar or is it better to buy new ones ? What is typical price of long range survlliance radar like a modern one ?

    I couldn't find lot of info on the net so I ask you here as you worked on that. I hope you don't mind for all those questions. Thanks.


    The Soviets already had emitters that operate with major ground based radar that emit the same signal as the radar they are operating with... if a threat ARM is detected the main radar stops radiating and the decoy transmitter activates directing fake signals at the incoming threat and also other nearby objects... a pencil beam directed at a tree can make the tree look like a radiating object... if you can get the ARM to hit the tree then mission accomplished.

    If the missile hits your decoy then mission accomplished too.

    Most of the time however the TOR or Pantsir will be intercepting that incoming ARM and the main SAM radar will continue operating while the main SAM will be shooting down the aircraft that launched the ARM in the first place.

    Do you have exemples of such systems and some links to data sheets.
    avatar
    GarryB

    Posts : 18902
    Points : 19458
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Re: 1999 NATO bombing of Yugoslavia

    Post  GarryB on Sun Feb 18, 2018 10:58 am

    Try looking up Gazetchik.... it is one system designed to defend against ARMs.
    avatar
    Militarov

    Posts : 5982
    Points : 6009
    Join date : 2015-09-02
    Location : Serbia

    Re: 1999 NATO bombing of Yugoslavia

    Post  Militarov on Sun Feb 18, 2018 4:24 pm

    Isos wrote:
    Militarov wrote:
    Isos wrote:@Miltarov I think it was you who said serbian air defence used mig 21 radar to protect their land based radar from anti radiation missiles.

    Was it successfull ? How hard is it to do this and how was it actually done? Did they switch on mig 21 radars when they detected the lunch or were they always turned on ?

    Does russia have similar methodes to protect its air defence systems ? Would it be good to mount cheap radars on land drones that would go some hundreds metres from the main radars and could be switch on to attract anti radiation missiles ?

    Old retired radars were fixed for such roles few times, radars from anti-ship missiles... radars from retired MiGs... everything was tried. Was fairly successful lets say. They would turn them on when long range radars detected intrusions, to get attention from our valuable sources of radiation lets say. To try and make them waste anti-rad missiles. We made even few dozen of "real" radar decoys.

    Pointless in our situation for most part but better something than nothing.

    So it is possible to use a basic radar like the one from mig-21 and program it to lock onto target just to make them lunch ARM.

    And what was the average detection range of serbian ground based radars against f-16, f-15, mirages and AWACS ?

    What do you think of the P-18 radar ? It is said to be good against LO aircraft like f-117. Do you know its range against the f-117 ?

    And what do you think of this upgrade ? http://www.kbradar.by/en/products/radiolokatsiya/modernizatsiya-i-remont-rls-i-zenitnogo-raketnogo-vooruzheniya/99/

    Do you think its worth upgrading such radar or is it better to buy new ones ? What is typical price of long range survlliance radar like a modern one ?

    I couldn't find lot of info on the net so I ask you here as you worked on that. I hope you don't mind for all those questions. Thanks.


    The Soviets already had emitters that operate with major ground based radar that emit the same signal as the radar they are operating with... if a threat ARM is detected the main radar stops radiating and the decoy transmitter activates directing fake signals at the incoming threat and also other nearby objects... a pencil beam directed at a tree can make the tree look like a radiating object... if you can get the ARM to hit the tree then mission accomplished.

    If the missile hits your decoy then mission accomplished too.

    Most of the time however the TOR or Pantsir will be intercepting that incoming ARM and the main SAM radar will continue operating while the main SAM will be shooting down the aircraft that launched the ARM in the first place.

    Do you have exemples of such systems and some links to data sheets.

    Our most valuable long range detection means were P12 and P-15M2 radars, together with AN/TPS-70 only one of which was destroyed as it was very mobile and seems it was quite resilient to their spoofing. So in general we could know they are coming before they crossed the border, as there are no means for them to launch anti-radiation missiles from longer ranges radars were mostly safe in later periods of the war. But our aviation was useless except J-22s that could fly in Lo-Lo-Lo configuration to support infantry on Kosovo now and then.

    Detection ranges in ideal situation of those radars is about 300km aganist fighter sized object, in our case about 250 as they prefered formations so we could "see" them despite unfavourable terrain for radar usage. Fixed radar sites were trashed in start so.... Official story is that F-117A was first detected by P-18.

    Those are obsolete radars to start with, but in limited financial situation its better than nothing, in Serbia we have similar project to modernise P series radars led by Mihajlo Pupin institute and some private companies like MTT- INFIZ (check their site they have like 10 or so different components for modernisation of radars and russian SAM-s)-



    http://www.mtt-infiz.com/e_raketni-sistemi-radarski-sistemi-serije-p.html - you can chedk this too

    Maximum range you can expect to detect something in airliner/transport size, with modern "metric" radars is up to 600-700km.

    Russians had 34Ya6E Gazetchik E MAWS, Decoy and Countermeasures System:



    KRTZ-125-2M Anti-Radiation Missile Decoy System:



    You can read more about those here: http://www.ausairpower.net/APA-SAM-DefAids.html

    There is also OU-1 (Otvlekayuscheye ustroystvo) made to accompany OSA systems.

    When its about Serbian/Yugoslavian systems there are few... which are not that well known around the globe to say at least Very Happy

    MD-04 radar decoy, built by once mighty Kosmos company from Banjaluka, it was modified SS-N-2 ”Styx” radar with auxilary power unit.

    Later during the war those systems were suplemented by few on the go made devices like IRZ-1, IRZ-21 and IRZ-22. Those were built and developed by above mentioned MTT INFIZ from Zemun. IRZ-1 was based on components from impulse generator from V-601P/5V27 Neva missile. Two later modifications were better and more effective as those were based on RP-22 from Mig-21 but were very heavy and very powerful, made to simulate high-power radars with output power of even more than 200kW (for IRZ-22).








    avatar
    Isos

    Posts : 2498
    Points : 2492
    Join date : 2015-11-06

    Re: 1999 NATO bombing of Yugoslavia

    Post  Isos on Sun Feb 18, 2018 8:26 pm

    Thanks study thumbsup

    Sponsored content

    Re: 1999 NATO bombing of Yugoslavia

    Post  Sponsored content


      Current date/time is Thu Dec 13, 2018 4:08 am