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    Infantry Mobility Vehicles

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    AlfaT8

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    Re: Infantry Mobility Vehicles

    Post  AlfaT8 on Mon Mar 11, 2013 3:41 pm

    Viktor wrote:Prices of Lynx, Tigr, Tigr-M and Tigr-6a (this might be this new increased level of protection Russian army has requested)

    Anyway most expensive version of Tigr vehicle is more than twice cheaper than Lynx. I think that says it all.
    Tigr-6a?? Suspect

    Where'd this come from, details please. scratch
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    Viktor

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    Re: Infantry Mobility Vehicles

    Post  Viktor on Mon Mar 11, 2013 3:47 pm

    AlfaT8 wrote:
    Viktor wrote:Prices of Lynx, Tigr, Tigr-M and Tigr-6a (this might be this new increased level of protection Russian army has requested)

    Anyway most expensive version of Tigr vehicle is more than twice cheaper than Lynx. I think that says it all.
    Tigr-6a?? Suspect

    Where'd this come from, details please. scratch

    Its basically Tigr-M with enchanted protection.

    IVECO - 567K USD,
    TIGR - 200K USD,
    TIGR-M - 220K USD,
    TIGR-6a - 267K USD
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    Regular

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    Re: Infantry Mobility Vehicles

    Post  Regular on Mon Mar 11, 2013 7:37 pm

    Viktor wrote:
    AlfaT8 wrote:
    Viktor wrote:Prices of Lynx, Tigr, Tigr-M and Tigr-6a (this might be this new increased level of protection Russian army has requested)

    Anyway most expensive version of Tigr vehicle is more than twice cheaper than Lynx. I think that says it all.
    Tigr-6a?? Suspect

    Where'd this come from, details please. scratch

    Its basically Tigr-M with enchanted protection.

    IVECO - 567K USD,
    TIGR - 200K USD,
    TIGR-M - 220K USD,
    TIGR-6a - 267K USD
    if Russia will get licence to produce Iveco it will cost significantly cheaper. I hope they will put Russian engine in to it and modify according to their needs. I don't think it's gonna be such logistical nightmare for Russia, but unified platform like Volk or the one proposed by Kamaz would be better. Tigr looks good and the new engine is a beast, but some users from MVD were complaining about overall quality. I hope it gets developed even further and gets some ied protection
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    GarryB

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    Re: Infantry Mobility Vehicles

    Post  GarryB on Tue Mar 12, 2013 11:27 am

    Licence production is usually more expensive than simple local production as you have to pay licence production fees and set up costs etc.

    Of course at the end of the day you end up with state of the art production facilities that you can use to produce what ever you want.

    I rather suspect there will be no follow on contract for new Ivecios and that those produced will be all they make.

    A very capable vehicle but its main capabilities were never tested in Russia (ie no explosion testing or shooting testing was allowed.)


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    AlfaT8

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    Re: Infantry Mobility Vehicles

    Post  AlfaT8 on Tue Mar 12, 2013 3:57 pm

    GarryB wrote:Licence production is usually more expensive than simple local production as you have to pay licence production fees and set up costs etc.

    Of course at the end of the day you end up with state of the art production facilities that you can use to produce what ever you want.

    Thought so, the new facilities would be nice, but there in the process of modernization anyways so it doesn't necessarily have to be the Iveco. pirat

    GarryB wrote:I rather suspect there will be no follow on contract for new Ivecos and that those produced will be all they make.

    That's pretty obvious, especially now. Cool

    GarryB wrote:A very capable vehicle but its main capabilities were never tested in Russia (ie no explosion testing or shooting testing was allowed.)
    In short, no armor testing of any kind whatsoever, that's just wrong!! Shocked Shocked No

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    GarryB

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    Re: Infantry Mobility Vehicles

    Post  GarryB on Tue Mar 12, 2013 11:38 pm

    In short, no armor testing of any kind whatsoever, that's just wrong!!

    I know.

    Nothing against the Italians, but it is possible that the vehicles presented to the Russians and in licence production might not be the same as the vehicles sold to NATO countries.

    More importantly Russian vehicles tend to have to face their own weaponry a lot... especially the newer more powerful stuff, while in Afghanistan and Iraq the enemy has not always been so well equipped with modern stuff.


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    Cyberspec

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    Re: Infantry Mobility Vehicles

    Post  Cyberspec on Thu Jun 27, 2013 5:13 am

    MOD reportedly cancels order for Iveco/Lynx vehicles, apparently due to not satisfying a number of requirements. The report hasn't been yet confirmed officially, but it cites Viktor Murakovski who is president of the MIC. He says 385 Lynx will be inducted into reconnaissance units (the minimum they have to purchase) but will be scrapped once their resources run out. Ha says the Lynx has no place in modern combined arms operations.

    Arrow http://rosinform.ru/2013/06/25/italyanskuyu-bronemashinu-rys-snyali-s-vooruzheniya/
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    TR1

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    Re: Infantry Mobility Vehicles

    Post  TR1 on Thu Jun 27, 2013 9:33 pm

    Cyberspec wrote:MOD reportedly cancels order for Iveco/Lynx vehicles, apparently due to not satisfying a number of requirements. The report hasn't been yet confirmed officially, but it cites Viktor Murakovski who is president of the MIC. He says 385 Lynx will be inducted into reconnaissance units (the minimum they have to purchase) but will be scrapped once their resources run out. Ha says the Lynx has no place in modern combined arms operations.

    Arrow http://rosinform.ru/2013/06/25/italyanskuyu-bronemashinu-rys-snyali-s-vooruzheniya/

    The mess comes full circle.
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    Zivo

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    Re: Infantry Mobility Vehicles

    Post  Zivo on Thu Jun 27, 2013 10:27 pm

    "but will be scrapped once their resources run out. Ha says the Lynx has no place in modern combined arms operations"

    Ouch...

    Talk about being harsh. It's nice to see the MoD correcting mistakes though.
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    Viktor

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    Re: Infantry Mobility Vehicles

    Post  Viktor on Fri Jun 28, 2013 12:27 am

    So whats the final number of Lynx inducted in Russian Army?
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    GarryB

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    Infantry Mobility Vehicles

    Post  GarryB on Fri Jun 28, 2013 1:06 am

    385.

    I guess with the cancellation of the program they can now use the facilities they were developing for production of the Lynxs to make something else...


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    GarryB

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    Re: Infantry Mobility Vehicles

    Post  GarryB on Thu Aug 22, 2013 10:49 am

    Another Tigr with a remote weapon system:



    Can I draw your attention to this:



    Note top left of the second image shows the mount is compatible with the PKMT 7.62mm MG, the Kord 12.7mm HMG and the AGS-40 Balkan 40mm grenade launcher!


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    “The West won the world not by the superiority of its ideas or values or religion […] but rather by its superiority in applying organized violence. Westerners often forget this fact; non-Westerners never do.”

    ― Samuel P. Huntington, The Clash of Civilizations and the Remaking of World Order
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    GarryB

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    Re: Infantry Mobility Vehicles

    Post  GarryB on Wed Jun 11, 2014 12:13 pm

    Sorry for raising this old thread but just came across this article from June 9th:

    The Special Forces unit of Russia’s Central Military District will receive a total of ten new Tiger armored vehicles. This statement was made by Colonel Yaroslav Roschupkin, a spokesman for the Central Military District, on Friday.

    Earlier this year, Col. Roschupkin reported that the Central Military District was to receive 24 Tigers by the end of 2014. Last year, Deputy Defence Minister Yury Borisov said Russian Armed Forces’ demand for Tigers had reached unprecedented levels following the modernization of Tigers that eliminated the previous advantages of Iveco’s Lynx light motor vehicles.

    “The Tolyatti Special Forces division will receive a total of ten new armored GAZ-233014 Tigers. In accordance with the state arms procurement program, the vehicles will be supplied by the end of 2014,” Col. Roschupkin pointed out.

    So the original Tigrs were inferior to the Lynx, but further improvements led to it being better in the areas they thought were important so now they in high demand... that is good. Smile


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    “The West won the world not by the superiority of its ideas or values or religion […] but rather by its superiority in applying organized violence. Westerners often forget this fact; non-Westerners never do.”

    ― Samuel P. Huntington, The Clash of Civilizations and the Remaking of World Order
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    medo

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    Re: Infantry Mobility Vehicles

    Post  medo on Wed Jun 11, 2014 4:16 pm

    There are no words about Lynx for a long time. Is it still in production from the first batch of ~700 vehicles, from the first contract? They said they will not cancel it, because of costs.

    cracker

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    tigr family, how many planed in total, how many in service now?

    Post  cracker on Thu Apr 30, 2015 6:07 am

    all in the title... I was quite surprised in march 2014 to see so many tigrs in crimea, and, more and more among many units in russia.

    I love these vehicles!

    and about the iveco LMV (or whatever it is), how about it? in production and in service?


    and, it's true that almost no UAZ-469 remain truly in service? (like, almost all replaced by 4x4 ural / gaz / kamaz trucks), i don't seem to see any of those lately.... How about the procurement of the UAZ "tigr" ? i recall some units had them with PKP and AGS-30


    more questions!

    -how about the GAZ "vodnik" family, are any of them in service, and, is it still produced? i like a lot this machine
    -how about the BPM 97 "vystrel", also in service? will be replaced?
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    Werewolf

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    Re: Infantry Mobility Vehicles

    Post  Werewolf on Thu Apr 30, 2015 11:31 am

    -how about the GAZ "vodnik" family, are any of them in service, and, is it still produced? i like a lot this machine

    Don't know about the amount of Vodnik's i also love this beauty, but what i heared is that they found its performance unsatisfactory and stopped further production, but do not know for sure.
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    franco

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    Re: Infantry Mobility Vehicles

    Post  franco on Thu Apr 30, 2015 3:06 pm

    cracker wrote:all in the title... I was quite surprised in march 2014 to see so many tigrs in crimea, and, more and more among many units in russia.

    I love these vehicles!

    and about the iveco LMV (or whatever it is), how about it? in production and in service?


    and, it's true that almost no UAZ-469 remain truly in service? (like, almost all replaced by 4x4 ural / gaz / kamaz trucks), i don't seem to see any of those lately.... How about the procurement of the UAZ "tigr" ? i recall some units had them with PKP and AGS-30


    more questions!

    -how about the GAZ "vodnik" family, are any of them in service, and, is it still produced? i like a lot this machine
    -how about the BPM 97 "vystrel", also in service? will be replaced?

    GAZ-2975 Tigr - have seen estimates of as high as 500 in service and as low as 120. Expect many more to be produced.
    Iveco LMV - original order was for 57 vehicles for testing and a further 358 kits to be assembled in Russia. They should all be in service this year and no more are planned.
    UAZ-469 - still see them around and there will be some use for them in the future but the Tigr, LMV and the new Skorpion-2M will eliminate field usage.
    Skorpion-2M - replacement for the UAZ-469 and very similar to the LMV.
    GAZ Vodnik - understand only ~100 produced. Believe them to be used by the Strategic Rocket Forces as patrol and escort vehicles.
    VPK-3927 Volk - starts production this year and will replace need for Vodnik type.
    BPM 97 Vystrel - have read that they were being tested by the Russian Army but not confirmed. They are in use with the Border Guard Service.


    Last edited by franco on Thu Apr 30, 2015 3:10 pm; edited 1 time in total
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    TheArmenian

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    Re: Infantry Mobility Vehicles

    Post  TheArmenian on Thu Apr 30, 2015 3:09 pm

    A few years ago, it was mentioned that the Arzamas plant would produce around 500 Tigrs per year.
    That was quite a few years ago. Did they produce that many per year? Less? More?
    For sure, a few thousand were produced thus far. Most went to the Army. Some went to police and other paramilitary forces. Some were exported to other countries. Some (not many) were civilian variants.

    As Werewolf indicated, Vodnik production seems to have stopped. Probably a few dozens (maybe a bit more) were produced in total.

    Vystrel production may still be going on a small scale. Probably a few dozens were made for the army, I believe some were exported to Kazakhstan. A few were seen in Lugansk region of Ukraine.

    cracker

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    Re: Infantry Mobility Vehicles

    Post  cracker on Thu Apr 30, 2015 3:45 pm

    ok, thanks.

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    TR1

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    Re: Infantry Mobility Vehicles

    Post  TR1 on Thu Apr 30, 2015 8:54 pm

    Vodnik was rejected because the MOD did not buy into the whole modular kuzov concept.
    Vystrel is by all acounts shit.

    Tigr is alright. As a utility vehicle it is pretty good, but the question is how does it fair compared to Iveco in protection.
    The issue is with the whole Iveco debacle, is the domestic industry howled how they would make it all themselves, when it became apparent even the MOD was fed up with their incompetence.
    After the Iveco deal was canned, the Tigr was supposed to be modernized into the 6A variant with improved and up to date mine/IED protection and higher level of ballistic protection than the basic GOST 5 Tigr.

    And here we are in 2015, and the Tigr 6A still has not passed trials, rumor is (quoting Makrushin here, twower blog owner) they can't make it meet the required performance level, and it is questionable if they will be able to at all while maintaining vehicle mobility performance.


    So there you have it.
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    flamming_python

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    Re: Infantry Mobility Vehicles

    Post  flamming_python on Thu Apr 30, 2015 9:20 pm

    Why not go with the Vol to replace the baseline Tigrs and Ivecos?
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    sepheronx

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    Re: Infantry Mobility Vehicles

    Post  sepheronx on Thu Apr 30, 2015 9:34 pm

    Apparently Ivecos were garbage in mobility, including muddy terrain. Tigr was supposed to be replaced by Volk which has better armor and similar mobility but heard nothing.

    sheytanelkebir

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    Re: Infantry Mobility Vehicles

    Post  sheytanelkebir on Fri May 01, 2015 12:03 pm

    the problem with all these new fangled "humvee types" is that they are too wide / heavy to go into many places that the UAZ-469 could navigate effortlessly.

    Iraqis were gifted 10,000+ HUMVEES by the americans... yet they went and bought hundreds of new build UAZ-469s which are operated by recon units as well as by battalion commanders!
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    TR1

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    Re: Infantry Mobility Vehicles

    Post  TR1 on Fri May 01, 2015 8:38 pm

    Humvee is fundamentally an light vehicle, Tigr is basically a BTR-80 chopped in half for its suspension.

    So while I agree it is not a perfect Uazik replacement (especially for simple liason duties and such), it doesn't suffer from nearly the issues HUMVEE has with suspension overloading and such.

    For Uaz replacement I really like the Skorpion.
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    rtech

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    Re: Infantry Mobility Vehicles

    Post  rtech on Fri May 01, 2015 9:22 pm

    sheytanelkebir wrote:the problem with all these new fangled "humvee types" is that they are too wide / heavy to go into many places that the UAZ-469 could navigate effortlessly.

    Iraqis were gifted 10,000+ HUMVEES by the americans... yet they went and bought hundreds of new build UAZ-469s which are operated by recon units as well as by battalion commanders!

    Our Army wasnt happy with UAZ in Iraq they complained about lack of air conditioning and "adaptation to desert condition" i suspect sand and dust clogging the air filter. Can you fill us in on that?

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