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    Infantry Mobility Vehicles

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    GarryB
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    Re: Infantry Mobility Vehicles

    Post  GarryB on Thu Feb 28, 2013 3:18 am

    Well Duh... sorry my mistake... the space defence forces that have become part of the new aerospace defence forces don't operate TOPOLS... they operate the long range early warning radars and satellites... you are quite right Viktor.

    It is the Strategic Rocket Forces that operate TOPOL, but FSB still is tasked with the security of the nuclear warheads.



    This is the photo I remember seeing with lots of Vodniks in it... can't remember where I got it from though...


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    TheArmenian
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    Re: Infantry Mobility Vehicles

    Post  TheArmenian on Thu Feb 28, 2013 9:03 am

    GarryB wrote:Well Duh... sorry my mistake... the space defence forces that have become part of the new aerospace defence forces don't operate TOPOLS... they operate the long range early warning radars and satellites... you are quite right Viktor.

    It is the Strategic Rocket Forces that operate TOPOL, but FSB still is tasked with the security of the nuclear warheads.



    This is the photo I remember seeing with lots of Vodniks in it... can't remember where I got it from though...

    If I remember correctly, that photo is from the south Caucasus region.

    flamming_python
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    Been wondering, what's the status of the Vodnik (GAZ-3937)??

    Post  flamming_python on Thu Feb 28, 2013 10:31 am

    The Vodnik was just a failed experiment it seems; it's amphibious ability or rather ability to get back on shore is decidedly lack-luster.

    Viktor
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    Re: Infantry Mobility Vehicles

    Post  Viktor on Mon Mar 11, 2013 1:52 pm

    Prices of Lynx, Tigr, Tigr-M and Tigr-6a (this might be this new increased level of protection Russian army has requested)

    Anyway most expensive version of Tigr vehicle is more than twice cheaper than Lynx. I think that says it all.



    AlfaT8
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    Re: Infantry Mobility Vehicles

    Post  AlfaT8 on Mon Mar 11, 2013 3:41 pm

    Viktor wrote:Prices of Lynx, Tigr, Tigr-M and Tigr-6a (this might be this new increased level of protection Russian army has requested)

    Anyway most expensive version of Tigr vehicle is more than twice cheaper than Lynx. I think that says it all.
    Tigr-6a?? Suspect

    Where'd this come from, details please. scratch

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    Re: Infantry Mobility Vehicles

    Post  Viktor on Mon Mar 11, 2013 3:47 pm

    AlfaT8 wrote:
    Viktor wrote:Prices of Lynx, Tigr, Tigr-M and Tigr-6a (this might be this new increased level of protection Russian army has requested)

    Anyway most expensive version of Tigr vehicle is more than twice cheaper than Lynx. I think that says it all.
    Tigr-6a?? Suspect

    Where'd this come from, details please. scratch

    Its basically Tigr-M with enchanted protection.

    IVECO - 567K USD,
    TIGR - 200K USD,
    TIGR-M - 220K USD,
    TIGR-6a - 267K USD

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    Re: Infantry Mobility Vehicles

    Post  Regular on Mon Mar 11, 2013 7:37 pm

    Viktor wrote:
    AlfaT8 wrote:
    Viktor wrote:Prices of Lynx, Tigr, Tigr-M and Tigr-6a (this might be this new increased level of protection Russian army has requested)

    Anyway most expensive version of Tigr vehicle is more than twice cheaper than Lynx. I think that says it all.
    Tigr-6a?? Suspect

    Where'd this come from, details please. scratch

    Its basically Tigr-M with enchanted protection.

    IVECO - 567K USD,
    TIGR - 200K USD,
    TIGR-M - 220K USD,
    TIGR-6a - 267K USD
    if Russia will get licence to produce Iveco it will cost significantly cheaper. I hope they will put Russian engine in to it and modify according to their needs. I don't think it's gonna be such logistical nightmare for Russia, but unified platform like Volk or the one proposed by Kamaz would be better. Tigr looks good and the new engine is a beast, but some users from MVD were complaining about overall quality. I hope it gets developed even further and gets some ied protection

    GarryB
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    Re: Infantry Mobility Vehicles

    Post  GarryB on Tue Mar 12, 2013 11:27 am

    Licence production is usually more expensive than simple local production as you have to pay licence production fees and set up costs etc.

    Of course at the end of the day you end up with state of the art production facilities that you can use to produce what ever you want.

    I rather suspect there will be no follow on contract for new Ivecios and that those produced will be all they make.

    A very capable vehicle but its main capabilities were never tested in Russia (ie no explosion testing or shooting testing was allowed.)


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    Re: Infantry Mobility Vehicles

    Post  AlfaT8 on Tue Mar 12, 2013 3:57 pm

    GarryB wrote:Licence production is usually more expensive than simple local production as you have to pay licence production fees and set up costs etc.

    Of course at the end of the day you end up with state of the art production facilities that you can use to produce what ever you want.

    Thought so, the new facilities would be nice, but there in the process of modernization anyways so it doesn't necessarily have to be the Iveco. pirat

    GarryB wrote:I rather suspect there will be no follow on contract for new Ivecos and that those produced will be all they make.

    That's pretty obvious, especially now. Cool

    GarryB wrote:A very capable vehicle but its main capabilities were never tested in Russia (ie no explosion testing or shooting testing was allowed.)
    In short, no armor testing of any kind whatsoever, that's just wrong!! Shocked Shocked No


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    Re: Infantry Mobility Vehicles

    Post  GarryB on Tue Mar 12, 2013 11:38 pm

    In short, no armor testing of any kind whatsoever, that's just wrong!!

    I know.

    Nothing against the Italians, but it is possible that the vehicles presented to the Russians and in licence production might not be the same as the vehicles sold to NATO countries.

    More importantly Russian vehicles tend to have to face their own weaponry a lot... especially the newer more powerful stuff, while in Afghanistan and Iraq the enemy has not always been so well equipped with modern stuff.


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    ― Samuel P. Huntington, The Clash of Civilizations and the Remaking of World Order

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    Re: Infantry Mobility Vehicles

    Post  Cyberspec on Thu Jun 27, 2013 5:13 am

    MOD reportedly cancels order for Iveco/Lynx vehicles, apparently due to not satisfying a number of requirements. The report hasn't been yet confirmed officially, but it cites Viktor Murakovski who is president of the MIC. He says 385 Lynx will be inducted into reconnaissance units (the minimum they have to purchase) but will be scrapped once their resources run out. Ha says the Lynx has no place in modern combined arms operations.

    Arrow http://rosinform.ru/2013/06/25/italyanskuyu-bronemashinu-rys-snyali-s-vooruzheniya/

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    Re: Infantry Mobility Vehicles

    Post  TR1 on Thu Jun 27, 2013 9:33 pm

    Cyberspec wrote:MOD reportedly cancels order for Iveco/Lynx vehicles, apparently due to not satisfying a number of requirements. The report hasn't been yet confirmed officially, but it cites Viktor Murakovski who is president of the MIC. He says 385 Lynx will be inducted into reconnaissance units (the minimum they have to purchase) but will be scrapped once their resources run out. Ha says the Lynx has no place in modern combined arms operations.

    Arrow http://rosinform.ru/2013/06/25/italyanskuyu-bronemashinu-rys-snyali-s-vooruzheniya/

    The mess comes full circle.

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    Re: Infantry Mobility Vehicles

    Post  Zivo on Thu Jun 27, 2013 10:27 pm

    "but will be scrapped once their resources run out. Ha says the Lynx has no place in modern combined arms operations"

    Ouch...

    Talk about being harsh. It's nice to see the MoD correcting mistakes though.

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    Re: Infantry Mobility Vehicles

    Post  Viktor on Fri Jun 28, 2013 12:27 am

    So whats the final number of Lynx inducted in Russian Army?

    GarryB
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    Infantry Mobility Vehicles

    Post  GarryB on Fri Jun 28, 2013 1:06 am

    385.

    I guess with the cancellation of the program they can now use the facilities they were developing for production of the Lynxs to make something else...


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    NPO Strela's SBRM - Service Combat Surveillance Vehicle- Best choice for COIN operations?

    Post  Mindstorm on Wed Aug 21, 2013 7:20 pm




    Lately the urgency to find efficient responses to the terrorist's lead guerrilla operations in urban environment characterizing several nation in the Middle East has put a great emphasis on the possible battlefield value (and possible export potential) of specialized vehicles such as the BMPT "Terminator" and all its possible iterations.

    Strangely it seem that a degree of attention similar to that given to this "kinetic piece" of the puzzling solution to the COIN problem is totally negated to the equally critical battlefield's surveillance and control factor ,so difficult to gain and maintain in urban combat.

    Under this point of view SBRM, a truly unique vehicle without corresponding neither in Russia neither abroad, represent in mine opinion, an almost perfect product for COIN operations ,with the potential for huge demand on the international market.


    Its sensor suit include almost the entire gamut of active and passive detection channels

    - Active radar
    - RWR
    - TV system
    - Thermal
    - Acoustic
    - Seismic
    - Acoustic
    - Magnetometric


    with capability to collect , cross, process and disseminate data coming from all this channels through remotely placed system and mini-UAVs.









    At those outstanding capabilities SBRM add also a

    - A 12,7 mm gun
    - Active jamming of enemy communication and mine's remote trigger
    - A raising mast (to operate in defilade)
    - A class 3 ballistic protection (7,62 mm)


    Its highly integrated search and control capabilities (from detection of the precise position of a group of sniper from its acoustic signature, to the position of moving terrorists at the second level of a ruined building through seismic and thermal channel ,to tracking of a group armed with RPGs on a far terrace through its mini UAVs etc... ) would result in a simply enormous increase of the neutralization rate in COIN , even more if paired with specialized vehicles like BMPT.

    MoD should seriously examine not only the merit of a wide adoption of SBRM ,but also the prompt creation of an exportable model (naturally together with a decoy versions, so to lure enemy groups ,attempting desperate operations to remove the critical piece ,in previously prepared ambushes) ,it would quickly become one of the most demanded piece on offer by Rosoboronexport.

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    Re: Infantry Mobility Vehicles

    Post  Sujoy on Wed Aug 21, 2013 7:45 pm

    I do not know much about the armor on this vehicle but this vehicle will also be ideal for low intensity urban conflict.

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    Re: Infantry Mobility Vehicles

    Post  NickM on Wed Aug 21, 2013 8:10 pm

    Sujoy wrote:I do not know much about the armor on this vehicle but this vehicle will also be ideal for low intensity urban conflict.
    Coz you say so ? You my non friend need to do some serious research before you post such comments on an open forum .

    If this vehicle takes a hit from an RPG it will blow the ass off the occupants till kingdom comes .

    Hope you read this - The only vehicle capable of operating in a hostile urban environment and surviving small arm fire is the MRAP .

    http://www.defense.gov/home/features/2007/mrap/

    Only the MRAP can survive IED's and RPGs and also has the firepower to turn the heat on the attackers .

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    Re: Infantry Mobility Vehicles

    Post  AlfaT8 on Thu Aug 22, 2013 12:38 am

    Mindstorm wrote:


    Lately the urgency to find efficient responses to the terrorist's lead guerrilla operations in urban environment characterizing several nation in the Middle East has put a great emphasis on the possible battlefield value (and possible export potential) of specialized vehicles such as the BMPT "Terminator" and all its possible iterations.

    Strangely it seem that a degree of attention similar to that given to this "kinetic piece" of the puzzling solution to the COIN problem is totally negated to the equally critical battlefield's surveillance and control factor ,so difficult to gain and maintain in urban combat.

    Under this point of view SBRM, a truly unique vehicle without corresponding neither in Russia neither abroad,  represent in mine opinion, an almost perfect product for COIN operations ,with the potential for huge demand on the international market.


    Its sensor suit include almost the entire gamut of active and passive detection channels

    - Active radar
    - RWR
    - TV system
    - Thermal
    - Acoustic
    - Seismic
    - Acoustic
    - Magnetometric


    with capability to collect , cross, process and disseminate data coming from all this channels through remotely placed system and mini-UAVs.






     


    At those outstanding capabilities SBRM add also a

    - A 12,7 mm gun
    - Active jamming of  enemy communication and mine's remote trigger
    - A raising mast (to operate in defilade)
    - A class 3 ballistic protection (7,62 mm)


    Its highly integrated search and control capabilities (from detection of the precise position of a group of sniper from its acoustic signature, to the position of moving terrorists at the second level of a ruined building through seismic and thermal channel ,to tracking of a group armed with RPGs on a far terrace through its mini UAVs etc... ) would result in a simply enormous increase of the neutralization rate in COIN , even more if paired with specialized vehicles like BMPT.

    MoD should seriously examine not only the merit of a wide adoption of SBRM ,but also the prompt creation of an exportable model (naturally together with a decoy versions, so to lure enemy groups ,attempting desperate operations to remove the critical piece ,in previously prepared ambushes) ,it would quickly become one of the most demanded piece on offer by Rosoboronexport.
    Very good Recon vehicle, i remember seing them on MP.net, surprised that the MoD hasn't ordered them in bulk yet. Neutral 

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    Re: Infantry Mobility Vehicles

    Post  GarryB on Thu Aug 22, 2013 3:41 am

    I would suggest there is likely already variants of this vehicle already planned in the appropriate chassis.

    There would be little point in having this Tigr based vehicle operating with armata based vehicles, so transfering its equipment and sensors and other bits and bobs to an armata, and a kurganets and a boomerang and a typhoon would make a lot of sense. This light vehicle based version would make a lot of sense for export though any country that already has an equivalent light vehicle might want their vehicle adapted rather than adding a new vehicle type to their fleet. Of course if their existing light vehicle is obsolete they might take the opportunity to replace their entire light armour fleet in which case the Tigr will be fine.


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    ― Samuel P. Huntington, The Clash of Civilizations and the Remaking of World Order

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    Re: Infantry Mobility Vehicles

    Post  TR1 on Thu Aug 22, 2013 3:49 am

    This thing was ordered by the Interior Ministry. I would imagine army has some different requirements.

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    Re: Infantry Mobility Vehicles

    Post  GarryB on Thu Aug 22, 2013 3:55 am

    Coz you say so ? You my non friend need to do some serious research before you post such comments on an open forum .
    I don't see anything in his post that seems radical... low intensity COIN operations generally rarely involve well equipped professional enemies with plenty of RPGs and explosives for making IEDs.

    Using this vehicle is little different from the US using unarmoured Humvees.

    If this vehicle takes a hit from an RPG it will blow the ass off the occupants till kingdom comes .
    The idea behind all the sensors is to detect threats before they present themselves, plus I rather doubt this vehicle will be operating alone.

    Hope you read this - The only vehicle capable of operating in a hostile urban environment and surviving small arm fire is the MRAP .
    Clearly wrong... hostile environments are not in themselves dangerous... and this vehicle is armoured to protect it from small arms fire.

    Only the MRAP can survive IED's and RPGs and also has the firepower to turn the heat on the attackers .
    An MRAP that can survive RPGs and IEDs of any type does not exist. MRAPs have some capability to protect people inside it from IEDs up to fairly specific size weights but unless you are up against morons the enemy will quickly work out how much explosive they need to get the job done and use that or a little bit more.

    Suggesting that you can design a small light vehicle that is safe from IEDs and RPGs is silly... even 70 ton western tanks are not safe from IEDs and RPGs.

    This thing was ordered by the Interior Ministry. I would imagine army has some different requirements.
    Perhaps similar requirements but based on different vehicle platforms to keep compatibility and commonality.


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    ― Samuel P. Huntington, The Clash of Civilizations and the Remaking of World Order

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    Re: Infantry Mobility Vehicles

    Post  GarryB on Thu Aug 22, 2013 10:49 am

    Another Tigr with a remote weapon system:



    Can I draw your attention to this:



    Note top left of the second image shows the mount is compatible with the PKMT 7.62mm MG, the Kord 12.7mm HMG and the AGS-40 Balkan 40mm grenade launcher!


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    ― Samuel P. Huntington, The Clash of Civilizations and the Remaking of World Order

    Sujoy
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    Re: Infantry Mobility Vehicles

    Post  Sujoy on Thu Aug 22, 2013 2:44 pm

    NickM wrote:The only vehicle capable of operating in a hostile urban environment and surviving small arm fire is the MRAP .

    Of course ....with some outstanding results cheers 

    Feast your eyes on this







    Seems too many people subscribe to your half baked ideas . Enjoy !

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    Re: Infantry Mobility Vehicles

    Post  Mindstorm on Thu Aug 22, 2013 3:00 pm

    NickM wrote:
    Coz you say so ? You my non friend need to do some serious research before you post such comments on an open forum .

    If this vehicle takes a hit from an RPG it will blow the ass off the occupants till kingdom comes .

    Hope you read this - The only vehicle capable of operating in a hostile urban environment and surviving small arm fire is the MRAP .

    http://www.defense.gov/home/features/2007/mrap/

    Only the MRAP can survive IED's and RPGs and also has the firepower to turn the heat on the attackers .
    Please NickM , please . We are attempting a serious debate on this subject, ok ?

    You cannot accuse, wrongly, the post of Sujoy of the shallow mistakes contained just in your ! Laughing 


    MRAP are class of vehicles for transport and patrol , strictly designed and optimized to offer good mine/IED resilience.

    Them was urgently ordered by US Army and inducted in the Iraq and Afghanistan theatre of war in response to the very high mortality rate of theirs operatives for effect of the road's side IED and mines placed on patrol route of NATO's forces on the ground.

    That said, its value as fighting vehicles in general and ....even worse...... as fighting vehicle in urban combat against hiding or defilated terrorists armed with PKM and RPG is next to ZERO ! Laughing 

    The STANAG 4569 of typical MRAP vehicles in service fluctuate between 2 and 3 and theirs weapon suit is near to the unarmed ; all of that for about 500.000 US dollar at piece.


    SBRM is an unique SURVEILLANCE vehicle capable to track precisely enemy position using practically any mean and channel for detection - TV, thermal, active radar, passive radar, electro-contrast, magnetometric, seismic, acoustic, UAV, - cross them and generate and disseminate data, for the fighting vehicles and infantry, on the exact position of hidden or defilated enemies.

    An enemy terrorist group, merely moving from a level to another of a far  building, or shooting a single bullet from a broken wall at 1 km of distance, or stationing hidden near a window or attempting to climb on the upper terrace to shot RPG ,would surrender instantly (and unconsciously) theirs position to one of the sensors of the SBRM , allowing a T-72B3 a BMP-3 or BMPT (those are real fighting vehicles.....) or a infantry squad armed with RPO "Shmel" present in the area to easily neutralize the terrorists in a matter of seconds.

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