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    Question: How to Counter Anti Radiation Missiles ?

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    nemrod
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    Question: How to Counter Anti Radiation Missiles ?

    Post  nemrod on Tue Apr 09, 2013 2:24 pm

    Does it exist a way to counter this kind of missiles ?
    And how ? Does Russia get a tactic ? If yes, what ?


    medo
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    Re: Question: How to Counter Anti Radiation Missiles ?

    Post  medo on Tue Apr 09, 2013 4:16 pm

    Shot it down by Pantsir or Tor.

    AlfaT8
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    Re: Question: How to Counter Anti Radiation Missiles ?

    Post  AlfaT8 on Tue Apr 09, 2013 4:56 pm

    Decoys, such as the Almaz-Antey OU-1 along with the rest of the Anti-Radiation Missile Decoy Systems.

    http://www.ausairpower.net/APA-SAM-DefAids.html#mozTocId43951

    nemrod
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    Re: Question: How to Counter Anti Radiation Missiles ?

    Post  nemrod on Tue Apr 09, 2013 5:56 pm

    AlfaT8 wrote:Decoys, such as the Almaz-Antey OU-1 along with the rest of the Anti-Radiation Missile Decoy Systems.

    http://www.ausairpower.net/APA-SAM-DefAids.html#mozTocId43951

    Thx friends Very Happy
    Iam impressed how russian technologies adapted to every challenges.

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    Re: Question: How to Counter Anti Radiation Missiles ?

    Post  Zivo on Tue Apr 09, 2013 8:41 pm

    Is their any truth behind the use of microwave oven decoys in Kosovo?

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    Re: Question: How to Counter Anti Radiation Missiles ?

    Post  medo on Thu Apr 11, 2013 4:34 pm

    Serbs use many different kinds of decoys, so microwave ovens could be between them. But, how effective they are, I don't know. Anyway Serbs show, they were masters of decoys and camouflage. After the war many start to learn this art.

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    Re: Question: How to Counter Anti Radiation Missiles ?

    Post  KomissarBojanchev on Thu Apr 11, 2013 5:18 pm

    Are there any gazetchik CM launchers in Russian service today or are they an export product without any success domestic or abroad?

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    Re: Question: How to Counter Anti Radiation Missiles ?

    Post  Mindstorm on Thu Apr 11, 2013 8:28 pm


    http://www.tetraedr.com/mupload/iblock/9ac/9acc6ece3aedca2274875c22aa7e505a.pdf


    Naturally, at today, the most advanced long range domestic SAM systems show engagement range enormously superior to the maximum range of ARM missiles Wink ; therefore those type of terminal defensess -hard-kill point defense , emitting decoy, and encoded pulsers- are mostly required by short range SAM batteries placed outsides IADS and frontal aviation coverage (like mobile SHORAD elements defending insulated ground groups).

    Naturally even very outdated samples of those type of those short range SAMs ('80 years technology) are represented exclusively by TELARs capable of cooperative engagement and "shoot and scout" techniques.

    But naturally this is not a problems for western ARM's operators ; what them are intended to confront is no more than some vastly downgraded samples of antidiluvian SA-2 ,SA-3 and SA-6 outside any serious IAD (even for '70 yeres standards Razz) devoid of any aid asset ,operated mostly by incompetent crew and..... attacked by entire NATO coalition.

    The best ARM tactic is to attack enemy not capable to defend himself in any way Wink .


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    Re: Question: How to Counter Anti Radiation Missiles ?

    Post  Viktor on Fri Apr 12, 2013 4:50 am

    KomissarBojanchev wrote:Are there any gazetchik CM launchers in Russian service today or are they an export product without any success domestic or abroad?

    Yes they are in service within Russian army and much more.

    Zivo wrote:Is their any truth behind the use of microwave oven decoys in Kosovo?

    True.

    Mindstorm wrote:Naturally even very outdated samples of those type of those short range SAMs ('80 years technology) are represented exclusively by TELARs capable of cooperative engagement and "shoot and scout" techniques.

    Exactly.

    For instance deployment time of even entire regiment echelon is incredible 5 minutes. Very Happy Very Happy

    Mixed brigades takes only 20 minutes to deploy. Unthinkable in western minds.


    nemrod wrote:Does it exist a way to counter this kind of missiles ?
    And how ? Does Russia get a tactic ? If yes, what ?

    Problem of defending against ARM is by my opinion wrongly put question. Why?

    Because the question does not define situation so we have an option to include everything (basically write a book) and nothing.

    Something partly defined would leave out many options that are available to Russian army and PVO so again you would not get an full

    answer to your question. Problematics include following:


    - Defining whether we are talking about Russia or some other country with what assets

    (Russia has much more than any other country different options on the table)

    - Defining whether we are talking about Army PVO or Territorial PVO or perhaps all of them combined

    (there are differences about the two and one could argue which one has better chances to handle the problem)

    - Defining the striking force

    (are we talking about USA, whole NATO alliance, or some random country etc)

    - Defining problems of information gathering

    (you need to know where your target is and for an a attacking force intelligence gathering process is a HUGE problem

    unless you count on a situation where attacking planes can safely surf the skies and look for targets Very Happy Very Happy - intelligence gathering

    can represent unsolvable problems except for most advanced countries)



    Yes Russian designed air defense has really numerous options against numerous threats including ARM because of:

    - concept of its air defense (air defense understands air force, air defense (SAMs), radar coverage etc)
    - the way Russians design its air defense (absolute and redundant integration on a unimaginable scale)
    - brute technical characteristic of its air defense assets
    - layered defense (5-6 layers of missiles with more to come Very Happy )
    - mobility (Russians basically invented "shoot and scope" technique with its 5min deployment S-300 time and others, very important)
    - numerous deception techniques they have developed and proved to be successful (radar decoy, pneumatic decoy, camouflage nets etc)
    - numerous other assets like ground ECM, passive radar systems etc
    - variety of tactics employed with educated staff to man them
    - infrastructure (prepared firing positions with numerous other reserve firing positions, etc)
    - communication links (cable, wireless staff and equipment)
    - low level radar, orderly radar systems, reserve radar system, in depth radar systems, forward radar systems in all frequency Very Happy )
    - numbers of fighters working within air defense assets and as part of it
    - spys network and organization working for PVO (with some of interesting tasks put in front of them)
    - range (range of the damn things has increased few times since the fall of SSSR and is simply terrifying for any western airforce analyst)

    Each of these lines has its story. Rather in depth one and that each story has its strictly defined purpose within huge organisation

    now called Aerospace Defense Forces. Very Happy Now this is not all but is surely most important.


    Thing is that Russian air defense is designed to cope with several hundreds of fighters

    coming from few different sides simultaneously. Nowhere in the world exists anything like it.

    It is huge, numerous, integrated, mobile, robust and flexible. It is able to cope with much more than just ARM Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy .


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    Re: Question: How to Counter Anti Radiation Missiles ?

    Post  Vann7 on Wed Aug 21, 2013 8:36 am

    nemrod wrote:Does it exist a way to counter this kind of missiles ?
    And how ? Does Russia get a tactic ? If yes, what ?

    Really anti-radiation missiles exist in World Powers arsenal since the early 60's. There is nothing revolutionary about defeating them.
    To give you an example , First generations of anti-radiation missiles like AGM-45 Shrike ,you could defeat them by simply turning off your radar = no radiation ,blinding totally the missile since what he seeks do not exist until you have something emitting radio waves.
    Moder missiles like AGM-88 HARM ,have inertial guidance ,by satelite of where the target is, so in my best guess with such guidance you can turn off the seeker until the last minutes of impact ,and making it a bit more stealthy to normal radars. Still inertial guidance by satellite lacks of precision so if the radar is turned off ,it might miss a direct hit or totally miss. To counter this you will try sending waves of missiles at the target usually radars ,to force it to be turned off for long periods ,to penetrate its air defenses. To counter them there are infinite ways.

    Most cheap way is decoys ,you can create decoys that looks 100% identical to the radar the missile seeks. In effect the missile will not know the difference between something that looks like a barbeque grill or a tank or radar. Why another kind of guidance is necessary by GPS ,that tells a close approximation of the radar will be.

    But then you could have mobile radars , or have static ones but mounted on elevators that are covered with a reinforced concrete wall in case of danger. There are also jammers to confuse the guidance of the missiles. Any S-300s or better system can defeat them. They can be defeated by Pantzirs that detect such missiles ,But in my opinion the most practical ,easier ,economical and more secure way to defeat them..is by destroying them Before they enter on your land. you can do that using heat seeking missiles ,that anti-radiation missiles or even stealth planes cannot hide.. its Heat. Migs-29k i think have missiles specially optimized to destroy cruise missiles and anti-radiation missiles. They are small ,cheap and more faster than the attacking missiles. So anti-radiation missiles cannot escape from missiles chasing their heat signal. Contrary to combat jets , anti radiation missiles do not deploy decoys. So destroying them is not hard at all. If they are subsonic like Harpoons slow in speed.. even simple machine gun fire could defeat them. Anti-radiation missiles ,however just like any missile or rocket when used in big numbers can overwhelm any defense system. This is why having Mobile Radars and an airforce that fully covers a country airspace is important. Specially if the country is small and do not have very large zones of defense..

    In my opinion ,Ballistic missiles like Iskanders are much more lethal , they cannot be stopped by combat jets , heavy machine guns or fooled by decoys ,and Russia claims not even Patriots defense system can defeat them,because of their hypersonic mach 7-9 speed and other coounter measures.Their accuracy is in the ~5-7 meters and with a near 1,000 kg warhead ,should be enough to pulverize anything withing a 100 meters range.,if not mistaken ,that was what russia used to disable Georgian system of air defenses which NATO helped them to prepare. If you use anti-radiation missiles in the other hand you will need to counter its high vulnerability to decoys ,heat seekers missiles and heavy machine guns with numbers ,to overwhelm their defenses.and ideally having troops on the ground painting with a lazer the target.

    Russia approach seems to be more brute force and power ,than surgical strikes.

    here is amateur video taken from georgia war , russia firing ballistic missiles TOCHKA-U to Georgia.

    http://youtu.be/F8XN0lPmg-A




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    Re: Question: How to Counter Anti Radiation Missiles ?

    Post  Regular on Wed Aug 21, 2013 11:49 am

    Lets not forget Russia successfully used anti radiation missiles in 080808 war. SU-34 did splendid job and dispatched couple radar installations along with their (ukrainian?) operators. It's not like Russia have no interest in SEAD.

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    Re: Question: How to Counter Anti Radiation Missiles ?

    Post  Viktor on Wed Aug 21, 2013 11:54 am

    Vann7 wrote:In my opinion ,Ballistic missiles like Iskanders are much more lethal , they cannot be stopped by combat jets , heavy machine guns or fooled by decoys ,and Russia claims not even Patriots defense system can defeat them,because of their hypersonic mach 7-9 speed and other coounter measures.Their accuracy is in the ~5-7 meters and with a near 1,000 kg warhead ,should be enough to pulverize anything withing a 100 meters range.,if not mistaken ,that was what russia used to disable Georgian system of air defenses which NATO helped them to prepare. If you use anti-radiation missiles in the other hand you will need to counter its high vulnerability to decoys ,heat seekers missiles and heavy machine guns with numbers ,to overwhelm their defenses.and ideally having troops on the ground painting with a lazer the target.
    One does not expect to see Russian Army having to rely on Russian Airforce to clear out radar and SAM sites Very Happy 

    Pasive radar / Tochka missile combo Very Happy 

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    Re: Question: How to Counter Anti Radiation Missiles ?

    Post  GarryB on Thu Aug 22, 2013 5:00 am

    Actually HARM has only very recently gotten the ability to engage targets that turn off before impact. In comparison the Kh-58 has had that capacity for a fairly long time.

    If you want to talk about a good ARM then you should be talking about ALARM which has a range of operating modes including one where it fires its rocket motor and climbs to high altitude and then deploys a parachute and listens for enemy radar signatures as it descends. If a radar is turned on it cuts the chute and fires up its rocket motor and rapidly accelerates to the target.

    Remember an ARM doesn't need to kill anything to be effective... often just getting the enemy to turn off their radar can be enough to allow the strike group to get past.

    The best way to defeat an ARM is to shoot it and the aircraft that launched it and the group of aircraft it was defending down. No one SAM system can do that, but the combination of Vityaz, Pantsir-S1, and/or S-400 can shoot down the missile and the launcher of the missile and the aircraft it was trying to defend.


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    Re: Question: How to Counter Anti Radiation Missiles ?

    Post  sheytanelkebir on Mon Sep 16, 2013 6:52 pm

    Iraq developed and deployed anti HARM and anti ALARM decoys during the 1990s and were used rather effectively during the running battles in the no-fly-zones between 1992-2003. In 2003 when the US invaded 95% of Iraq's surveillance and targeting radars were still functional despite many hundreds of HARMs fired at them over a 12+ year period.

    In fact they were also the first ones to deploy anti AMRAAM and anti AGM-130 (signal jamming) tactics and devices... probably helped to exacerbate the rapid development of AMRAAM variants unwittingly too...

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    Re: Question: How to Counter Anti Radiation Missiles ?

    Post  mack8 on Tue Sep 17, 2013 12:10 am

    Really?! Any more details by any chance , especially about decoying AMRAAM and AGM-130, that would be most interesting. Thanks.

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    Re: Question: How to Counter Anti Radiation Missiles ?

    Post  GarryB on Tue Sep 17, 2013 1:53 am

    As mentioned there are lots of ways of defeating ARMs, but if you think about the purpose of ARMs as being to let a group of aircraft penetrate airspace covered by enemy air defences then just turning off radars is self defeating unless you have reliable backup methods of scanning the skies and destroying aircraft.

    Modern Russian SAMs will likely have thermal optical backups that will allow enemy aircraft to be engaged even when the radar are turned off.

    Equally as part of a network you can have 10 radar located around the place with only one or two radar actually scanning with the other 8 radar listening. Objects that don't appear on the scanning radars screens, but appear as radio wave signals on other radars in the network as emission sources could be triangulated and identified as stealth aircraft that have redirected the active radar signals from the two active radars so the signal did not return to those emitters. The angles the signals are redirected is fixed by the shape of the aircraft, but the aircraft will not know where the radar that are just listening are positioned and cannot anticipate where the deflected radar signal might be redirected to.

    Wild Weasel aircraft detecting the two emitting radar sites can launch missiles at those two sites, but the missiles themselves will be detected along with the launch platforms and likely also the aircraft both are trying to protect. As the missiles get close to the active radar they can turn off, though with their inertial guidance they still could hit them, but if two more radar turn on that are a significant distance away the ARMs might turn and try to reach those instead, but lack the energy to reach them and end up just hitting the ground.

    Another option as mentioned above are custom made jamming decoy systems which are connected to the radar arrays of large SAMs that transmit radar signals that match the SAM Radars they are connected to... they even share power... but they are not radars... they are armoured and have basic solidly build individual antenna elements that can easily be replaced in the field so when an ARM is detected the main radar shuts down and the decoy turns on for a few seconds till hit, then the main radar turns on again while the decoy is checked and replacement parts are fitted if needed.

    The best solution however, which the Russians have adapted is everything... including multiple redundant radars (with all their SAM batteries they don't all need long range search radar, but they all have them) that are mobile and tied in to an integrated air defence network/system, plus decoys, and of course the upgraded missiles are able to engage enemy aircraft, cruise and ballistic missiles, and high speed ARMs. They also generally have optical backup guidance options but that is not so much for use in an environment with lots of ARMs, it is actually for heavy jamming environments.


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    Re: Question: How to Counter Anti Radiation Missiles ?

    Post  sheytanelkebir on Tue Sep 17, 2013 1:14 pm

    The Iraqi system was developed in collaboration between the Air Force and Air Defence Command after the 1991 defeat.

    It was called the "Sarab" system "Mirage".

    It was issued to Pechora units, and Iraqi officers from such units discussed it on the iraqi military forum. The system was designed to emulate the Pechora transmissions. It did not work with Kvadrat, OSA or ROLAND-II.

    80 such systems were deployed by the ADC in the No-Fly-Zones. They were singularly successful against HARM and ALARM... eventually the US began using AGM-130s in the late 1990s, and an alternative "signal jammer" was used to drive it off-course in the terminal guidance stages.

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    Re: Question: How to Counter Anti Radiation Missiles ?

    Post  mack8 on Tue Sep 17, 2013 11:55 pm

    Thank for the insight Sheytan, that is most interesting. There sure is a lot of interesting (and surprising) stuff waiting to be found out about what really happened between 1990-2003, at least concerning iraqi aviation/AD matters.

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