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    History of Cold war Soviet aircrafts

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    Militarov
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    Re: History of Cold war Soviet aircrafts

    Post  Militarov on Sat Feb 11, 2017 10:52 pm

    eridan wrote:According to take off magazine article about mig's history and their tables of production,  1330 mig29 of all kinds were produced by 1992.

    Soviet breakup was earlier so a few less, and some were exported, so again some 100+ less. Some were lost in accidents, etc...

    Over 1000 for sure (including UB trainers) possibly up to 1200 at the moment of breakup.

    100+ less? Ukraine alone inherited more than that.
    Pierre Sprey
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    Re: History of Cold war Soviet aircrafts

    Post  Pierre Sprey on Sat Feb 11, 2017 11:16 pm

    eridan wrote:According to take off magazine article about mig's history and their tables of production,  1330 mig29 of all kinds were produced by 1992.

    Soviet breakup was earlier so a few less, and some were exported, so again some 100+ less. Some were lost in accidents, etc...

    Over 1000 for sure (including UB trainers) possibly up to 1200 at the moment of breakup.

    800+ sounds about right to me.

    The cold war was the biggest arms race of all time. The biggest most overkill armament of all time. 400 ? Nah.
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    Mindstorm

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    Re: History of Cold war Soviet aircrafts

    Post  Mindstorm on Sun Feb 12, 2017 11:08 am



    Militarov wrote:100+ less? Ukraine alone inherited more than that.


    Militarov probably you want to know the number of MiG-29 - of different designation - operative with Russian Air Force after URSS's breakup while nastle77 want to know the number of MiG-29 operative with Soviet Air Force -excluded Warsaw Pact nations air forces - up to that date Wink


    From the previously mentioned book:

    "In 1992-93 the Russian Air Force operated about 580 MiG-29s, including the test and development aircraft owned by the Mykoyan OKB.
    By 2002 this had dwindled to about 490 machines ,including 239 Fulcrums in service with first-line units, 145 aircraft operated by training units and 89 aircraft at the Air Force's storage depots"

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    nastle77

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    Right before breakup of USSR how many mig 29 were operational with VVS ?

    Post  nastle77 on Tue Feb 14, 2017 6:40 pm

    Mindstorm wrote:

    Militarov wrote:100+ less? Ukraine alone inherited more than that.


    Militarov probably you want to know the number of MiG-29 - of different designation - operative with Russian Air Force after URSS's breakup while nastle77 want to know the number of MiG-29 operative with Soviet Air Force -excluded Warsaw Pact nations air forces - up to that date Wink


    From the previously mentioned book:

    "In 1992-93 the Russian Air Force operated about 580 MiG-29s, including the test and development aircraft owned by the Mykoyan OKB.
    By 2002 this had dwindled to about 490 machines ,including 239 Fulcrums in service with first-line units, 145 aircraft operated by training units and 89 aircraft at the Air Force's storage depots"    

    Exactly !
    So it's safe to assume yefim gordon is right in suggesting 800 + mig 29 by 1990 operational with soviet airforces. ?
    I also found that the ATTU or Atlantic to Ural count of fulcrum was 455 in the CFE estimation so probably the rest were still in Pacific or central Asia?
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    nastle77

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    Mig-23ML production

    Post  nastle77 on Sun Oct 08, 2017 10:26 am

    How many Mig-23ML and MLA were produced ?
    I have read about 1000

    but at the same time about 500 Mig-23P and 500 Mig-23MLD were produced so were these former Mig-23ML and MLA converted to Mig-23P and MLD standards

    OR

    Mig-23P was produced seperately and its numbers were 500 , in addition to the 1000 ML and MLA produced for VVS

    Hope that makes sense

    thanks
    d_taddei2
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    Re: History of Cold war Soviet aircrafts

    Post  d_taddei2 on Sun Oct 22, 2017 1:00 pm

    The MiG 23 that flew for 560 miles without the pilot then crashed in a farm killing a boy

    https://m.warhistoryonline.com/war-articles/barney-checkthe-mig-23-that-flew-for-560-miles-without-the-pilot-then-crashed-in-a-farm-killing-a-boy.html
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    nastle77

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    chaff and flare dispensers in soviet fighters

    Post  nastle77 on Sat Dec 09, 2017 5:31 am

    I was wondering if soviet aircraft in the 80s were fitted with chaff and dispensers?
    was it standard on all versions ? or only on certain specific upgrades

    Also did the soviet aircraft of 80s like Mig-23ML,MLD, Mig-23P,Mig-25PDS ,MiG-29 had chaff/flare dispensers ?
    Thanks
    Giulio
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    Re: History of Cold war Soviet aircrafts

    Post  Giulio on Sat Dec 09, 2017 9:38 am

    Yes, not only fighters.
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    nastle77

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    Re: History of Cold war Soviet aircrafts

    Post  nastle77 on Sat Dec 09, 2017 1:48 pm

    Giulio wrote:Yes, not only fighters.

    can you give some details

    what kind of systems were installed

    im only interested in fighters

    thanks
    GarryB
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    Re: History of Cold war Soviet aircrafts

    Post  GarryB on Mon Dec 11, 2017 1:34 am

    I remember reading comments in the 1990s from mainly british aircraft magazines about how the flares and chaff dispensors of the east german MiG-29s were quite effective against Sidewinders.

    To be clear the early model IR guided missiles often just headed for the hottest thing it could see, which often meant the sun. That led to improved designs with filters that went for the second hottest thing it could see. This led to flares with different intensities. By the 1980s and early 1990s they often detected UV rays which surfaces like metal or engines or even plastics don't give off... only the sun. flares, and burning fuel in an AB. They also changed the seeker to look for patterns of heat instead of individual hot points.

    That is why today most fighters and transports releasing flares release great streams of them in order to make patterns.

    With new IIR sensors that is all pretty much a waste of time and you actually have to actively deal with the sensor using DIRCMs... ie lasers to dazzle or damage optical sensors.
    Giulio
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    Re: History of Cold war Soviet aircrafts

    Post  Giulio on Wed Dec 13, 2017 12:59 am

    nastle77 wrote:
    Giulio wrote:Yes, not only fighters.

    can you give some details

    what kind of systems were installed

    im only interested in fighters

    thanks

    Afaik on the Mig-29 the dispensers were in a horizontal container placed in front of the root of each tail fin. In The Mig-23/27 in horizontal containers above the fuselage. On the Su-25 near the tail. Different configurations over time. On the Il-76/A-50 near the tail, on both sides. On the An-22 on the landing gear fairings, etc....

    For example:

    https://topwar.ru/21611-istrebiteli-mig-23-v-afganistane.html
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    Re: History of Cold war Soviet aircrafts

    Post  BlackArrow on Mon Dec 31, 2018 8:51 pm

    nastle77 wrote:I was wondering if soviet aircraft in the 80s were fitted with chaff and dispensers?
    was it standard on all versions ? or only on certain specific upgrades

    Also did the soviet aircraft of 80s like Mig-23ML,MLD, Mig-23P,Mig-25PDS ,MiG-29 had chaff/flare dispensers ?
    Thanks

    A Soviet aircraft of the 1980s that is most famous for the amount of flares it carried? That would be the Su-25 of course, followed by the Su-17. Especially needed over Afghanistan. Any aircraft used over Afghanistan would have carried tons of flares - I have the Il-76 in mind.
    George1
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    Re: History of Cold war Soviet aircrafts

    Post  George1 on Sun Feb 10, 2019 2:16 am

    Different layout options for the future of the MiG-31. 70s.

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    Re: History of Cold war Soviet aircrafts

    Post  GarryB on Sun Feb 10, 2019 4:20 am

    Sadly a lot of westerners believe the weapons the Soviets introduce are simply copies of western systems and they don't develop anything themselves.

    Because of this some think there is no competition in weapons development and a design bureau is simply designated the task of making a particular platform... so for instance the reason the MiG-29 and Su-27 look similar is because they were planned from the start to be copy mixes of Hornet/Falcon/Eagle/Tomcat aircraft.

    The reality is of course there was plenty of competition for programmes in the Soviet Union... sometimes copies were included and sometimes copies were the only option.

    Their first air to air missiles were complex and not super effective... the AA-1 alkali still lives on in the form of the AS-7 and AS-10 and AS-12 air to surface missiles in the form of the Kh-23 and then the modular Kh-25 missile system.

    The first Soviet air to air missile needed a rear facing antenna to receive commands via simple datalink, so the rocket propulsion had to be moved from the rear to the sides like most ATGMs, and if you cracked open a missile it was a complex mixture of wiring and systems all mixed together.

    When they first got their hands on a Sidewinder they were shocked at how simple and basic it was... from front to rear it had sections... seeker in the nose, then the control surfaces and their drive mechanisms, then the warhead and guidance electronics and then the solid rocket motor and then the tail fins at the very rear.

    The didn't have time to absorb the concept of modular design and construction... it allows motor upgrades and seeker upgrades and changes in aerodynamics much easier than with their old model custom designed complex method... so rather than wait for the concept of modular simple design to flow through their design bureaus and wait for a brand new all Soviet weapon, they just took what was interesting from the US design.

    Soviet rocket motors were better so they used one of their own design and their seekers were better so they also used that, and of course they used their own warhead and fusing, but the layout and modularity of the design was copied, as was the gyros which were tiny in comparison to Soviet models and very simple but effective.

    The concept of modularity is what they really copied and took it rather further than the Americans ever did.... case in point the R-27 family of missiles is enormous and offers several types of motor and seeker with the same basic aerodynamics.

    They chose to copy then to get something totally radical and new into service quickly so it could be used, but replacement missiles based on the new design philosophy soon followed.

    Actually in competition for the replacement for the R-23/24 for the MiG-23 on the MiG-29 and Su-27, there was a Sparrow like missile with the same fin layout using similar systems and parts and offering the same performance. It failed miserably against the R-27 family, but they would have happily adopted it if it had outperformed the alternative.

    Of course everyone does that, but the west has the advantage of time... something might be in service in the Soviet Union for ten years before good pictures of it appear in the west... so when the BMP appeared and the west decided to start copying the idea of an IFV, the US introduced the Bradley and the UK introduced the Warrior... both basically copies of the BMP-2. The F-15 was needed urgently and was supposed to counter the misunderstood MiG-25 so to start with the copied the basic layout to start with. the list is actually rather long... auto grenade launchers, assault rifles, weapon families (ie rifle, LMG, assault rifle, SMG etc based on the same design...) And now it is designated marksmen rifles (SVD) and of course RPG launchers... of course the west tends to take it too far... with their DMRs expected to kill to 1,000m or something silly like that... and their RPGs looking like they were made by Mattel... for GI Joe...

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