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    AlfaT8
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    Re: Western propaganda

    Post  AlfaT8 on Fri Apr 26, 2013 5:11 pm

    OK, now i am getting pissed, can somebody move this discussion to "USSR military history" already, cause if i recall this thread is about Western Propaganda. Mad Mad
    http://www.russiadefence.net/f55-ussr-military-history

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    Re: Western propaganda

    Post  TR1 on Fri Apr 26, 2013 8:27 pm

    This thread has turned into silly borderline Holocaust denial and German apologism.
    Also it runs contrary completely to actually accredited history, where Hitler's intentions in the east were well known from the start.
    Yes, Hitler wanted war, good grief....that article is absolutely terrible.

    By May 1945, Red Army hordes occupied all the great capitals of Central Europe:

    What a BULLSHIT premise....rehabilitating the Germans while ragging on the USSR. Mind you, this is inline with some right wingers who try to paint Christian Germany as a defender against teh Eastern subhumans.

    You won't get many people wanting to debate this because quite frankly reading any decent history book already does that, and this is a military, not "alternative history BS" forum.

    By the way, the guy whos article you posted:

    "He believes that Darwinism is a "disastrous theory," calling it faith instead of science.[50] He endorses the concept of intelligent design, and argues that regardless of the science behind creation, this process "implies the existence of a lawmaker"

    hahahaha.....yeah, shows his mindset well.

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    Re: Western propaganda

    Post  BTRfan on Fri Apr 26, 2013 8:42 pm

    TR1 wrote:This thread has turned into silly borderline Holocaust denial and German apologism.
    Also it runs contrary completely to actually accredited history, where Hitler's intentions in the east were well known from the start.
    Yes, Hitler wanted war, good grief....that article is absolutely terrible.

    By May 1945, Red Army hordes occupied all the great capitals of Central Europe:

    What a BULLSHIT premise....rehabilitating the Germans while ragging on the USSR. Mind you, this is inline with some right wingers who try to paint Christian Germany as a defender against teh Eastern subhumans.

    You won't get many people wanting to debate this because quite frankly reading any decent history book already does that, and this is a military, not "alternative history BS" forum.

    By the way, the guy whos article you posted:

    "He believes that Darwinism is a "disastrous theory," calling it faith instead of science.[50] He endorses the concept of intelligent design, and argues that regardless of the science behind creation, this process "implies the existence of a lawmaker"

    hahahaha.....yeah, shows his mindset well.


    The fruits of Darwinism can be found in communism, atheism, and humanism. Darwinism was a key component to Marxian Materialism.

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    Re: Western propaganda

    Post  TR1 on Fri Apr 26, 2013 8:43 pm

    It is also has a scientific basis far more valid than the hilariously silly theory of Creationism.
    As does, I would argue, atheism, but that's a whooole nother argument.

    Free advice: disregard anything Buchanan has to say on the matter of world war 2.

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    Re: Western propaganda

    Post  TR1 on Fri Apr 26, 2013 8:47 pm

    "Germany did not military lose in the First World War, it did not start the war, and it deserved better than Versailles."

    Also, I am sorry but this needs to be addressed. Without putting unnecessary blame on the Germans, we also should not excuse them in totality.
    1.) Germany turned what was a local Balkan war between Russia and Austria, into a European one. Then the French and British turned it into a fully European one. Everyone shares blame here.
    2.) Germany was on the verge of total defeat. Hunderberg and Ludendorf knew this. After their last offensives failed, they were done. Because they did not have the stomach to admit this publicly, we got the silly stab in the back legend that Hitler exploited.

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    Re: Western propaganda

    Post  BTRfan on Fri Apr 26, 2013 9:13 pm

    TR1 wrote:It is also has a scientific basis far more valid than the hilariously silly theory of Creationism.
    As does, I would argue, atheism, but that's a whooole nother argument.

    Free advice: disregard anything Buchanan has to say on the matter of world war 2.


    Until earlier today you didn't even know anything about Buchanan...

    He ran for president in the USA and received almost 3 million votes in the Republican Primary in 1992. He ran as a third party candidate in 2000 and received almost 500,000 votes [it is generally agreed that his selection of a black woman as his VP candidate cost him hundreds of thousands of votes, not that he was going to win, but he could have managed 2-4 million votes if he had picked a white male].

    Anyway, he's not some random crackpot that came out of the woodwork.


    He's a respected author and columnist.

    Churchill, Hitler and the Unnecessary War: How Britain Lost Its Empire and the West Lost the World

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Churchill,_Hitler_and_the_Unnecessary_War

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    Re: Western propaganda

    Post  BTRfan on Fri Apr 26, 2013 9:15 pm

    TR1 wrote:"Germany did not military lose in the First World War, it did not start the war, and it deserved better than Versailles."

    Also, I am sorry but this needs to be addressed. Without putting unnecessary blame on the Germans, we also should not excuse them in totality.
    1.) Germany turned what was a local Balkan war between Russia and Austria, into a European one. Then the French and British turned it into a fully European one. Everyone shares blame here.
    2.) Germany was on the verge of total defeat. Hunderberg and Ludendorf knew this. After their last offensives failed, they were done. Because they did not have the stomach to admit this publicly, we got the silly stab in the back legend that Hitler exploited.


    Once Russia ordered full/general mobilization it was a defacto declaration of war on Germany. Germany could not afford to sit back and HOPE that the Russian soldiers were only mobilizing to put pressure on Austria to negotiate.


    If Russia had been willing to wait even 8-12 weeks, it might have been enough to allow diplomacy to start to work. I blame the bad advisers and sycophants who surrounded the Tsar and only cared about their own positions and their own agenda.


    When you are Germany and Russia starts to mobilize, you have to go to war or else you get clobbered once Russia is able to bring its full might to bear.

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    Re: Western propaganda

    Post  TR1 on Fri Apr 26, 2013 10:45 pm

    BTRfan wrote:
    TR1 wrote:It is also has a scientific basis far more valid than the hilariously silly theory of Creationism.
    As does, I would argue, atheism, but that's a whooole nother argument.

    Free advice: disregard anything Buchanan has to say on the matter of world war 2.


    Until earlier today you didn't even know anything about Buchanan...

    He ran for president in the USA and received almost 3 million votes in the Republican Primary in 1992. He ran as a third party candidate in 2000 and received almost 500,000 votes [it is generally agreed that his selection of a black woman as his VP candidate cost him hundreds of thousands of votes, not that he was going to win, but he could have managed 2-4 million votes if he had picked a white male].

    Anyway, he's not some random crackpot that came out of the woodwork.


    He's a respected author and columnist.

    Churchill, Hitler and the Unnecessary War: How Britain Lost Its Empire and the West Lost the World

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Churchill,_Hitler_and_the_Unnecessary_War

    I knew about Buchanan, just not his BS world war 2 views. However, given his political views it fits in perfectly.
    And no one takes his historical views seriously, wonder why.

    Getting votes in a US election is not proof of being sensical.

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    Re: Western propaganda

    Post  TR1 on Fri Apr 26, 2013 10:49 pm

    BTRfan wrote:
    TR1 wrote:"Germany did not military lose in the First World War, it did not start the war, and it deserved better than Versailles."

    Also, I am sorry but this needs to be addressed. Without putting unnecessary blame on the Germans, we also should not excuse them in totality.
    1.) Germany turned what was a local Balkan war between Russia and Austria, into a European one. Then the French and British turned it into a fully European one. Everyone shares blame here.
    2.) Germany was on the verge of total defeat. Hunderberg and Ludendorf knew this. After their last offensives failed, they were done. Because they did not have the stomach to admit this publicly, we got the silly stab in the back legend that Hitler exploited.


    Once Russia ordered full/general mobilization it was a defacto declaration of war on Germany. Germany could not afford to sit back and HOPE that the Russian soldiers were only mobilizing to put pressure on Austria to negotiate.


    If Russia had been willing to wait even 8-12 weeks, it might have been enough to allow diplomacy to start to work. I blame the bad advisers and sycophants who surrounded the Tsar and only cared about their own positions and their own agenda.


    When you are Germany and Russia starts to mobilize, you have to go to war or else you get clobbered once Russia is able to bring its full might to bear.

    Russian troops moved towards Austria only, and the Tsar specifically contacted the Kaiser and told him he had no intentions towards Germany.
    Germany's mobilization is not "unique", but a product of its time...however by no means were they "forced at gunpoint" to mobilize.

    Stop excusing Germany. They did not start WW1, but they are responsible for their own fate after they declared war and invaded the West. If Russia had waited 8-12 weeks, Serbia would have been crushed. The whole point of the mobilization was to deter AUstria from invading Serbia.

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    Re: Western propaganda

    Post  BTRfan on Fri Apr 26, 2013 11:44 pm

    TR1 wrote:
    BTRfan wrote:
    TR1 wrote:"Germany did not military lose in the First World War, it did not start the war, and it deserved better than Versailles."

    Also, I am sorry but this needs to be addressed. Without putting unnecessary blame on the Germans, we also should not excuse them in totality.
    1.) Germany turned what was a local Balkan war between Russia and Austria, into a European one. Then the French and British turned it into a fully European one. Everyone shares blame here.
    2.) Germany was on the verge of total defeat. Hunderberg and Ludendorf knew this. After their last offensives failed, they were done. Because they did not have the stomach to admit this publicly, we got the silly stab in the back legend that Hitler exploited.


    Once Russia ordered full/general mobilization it was a defacto declaration of war on Germany. Germany could not afford to sit back and HOPE that the Russian soldiers were only mobilizing to put pressure on Austria to negotiate.


    If Russia had been willing to wait even 8-12 weeks, it might have been enough to allow diplomacy to start to work. I blame the bad advisers and sycophants who surrounded the Tsar and only cared about their own positions and their own agenda.


    When you are Germany and Russia starts to mobilize, you have to go to war or else you get clobbered once Russia is able to bring its full might to bear.

    Russian troops moved towards Austria only, and the Tsar specifically contacted the Kaiser and told him he had no intentions towards Germany.
    Germany's mobilization is not "unique", but a product of its time...however by no means were they "forced at gunpoint" to mobilize.

    Stop excusing Germany. They did not start WW1, but they are responsible for their own fate after they declared war and invaded the West. If Russia had waited 8-12 weeks, Serbia would have been crushed. The whole point of the mobilization was to deter AUstria from invading Serbia.



    But Germany's position was already tenuous at best. If they didn't support Austria they would have been without any allies in Europe, with France to the west, Russia to the east, an outraged Austria to the south, and of course Britain could never be counted on to do anything other than side against Germany.


    I prefer what Hitler suggested in Mein Kampf. Germany should have allied with Russia AGAINST Austria-Hungary because Austria-Hungary was an unworthy ally that dragged Germany into a quagmire without regard for Germany's interests.

    Hitler made it clear, [paraphrase] "if the Great War had begun with a blow struck against Germany, there can be no doubt that the Hapsburgs would have failed to honor their obligations to Germany. The only reason Austria stood by Germany and stuck with the Central Powers was because the Great War began with the death of the Austrian Archduke."

    Hitler thought that Austria-Hungary, under the Hapsburgs, was leading the German element of that artificial union to ruin and it would have been preferrable for Germany to ally with Russia. Russia would receive the Eastern European portions of the Austro-Hungarian Empire [Lemberg/Lvov, surrounding lands], Germany would annex the German portion of Austria, and the rest of the Hapsburgs lands [Hungary, etc] would go their own ways.

    It is clearly spelled out in MK. Hitler had nothing but contempt for the Hapsburgs and he thought that an alliance with Russia should have been pursued by Germany in the late 1800s and early 1900s and that Russia would have been a more valuable and more honorable ally than Austria-Hungary which was [in his view] just a burden on Germany and a nation ready to abandon Germany as soon as it suited them.

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    Re: Western propaganda

    Post  BTRfan on Fri Apr 26, 2013 11:52 pm

    TR1 wrote:

    Russian troops moved towards Austria only, and the Tsar specifically contacted the Kaiser and told him he had no intentions towards Germany.
    Germany's mobilization is not "unique", but a product of its time...however by no means were they "forced at gunpoint" to mobilize.

    Stop excusing Germany. They did not start WW1, but they are responsible for their own fate after they declared war and invaded the West. If Russia had waited 8-12 weeks, Serbia would have been crushed. The whole point of the mobilization was to deter AUstria from invading Serbia.


    Indeed I don't doubt that... But could the Kaiser afford to take the chance that everything would stay the same, that nothing would change? If you are the leader of a nation and the most numerous army in the world is mobilizing to full strength and they assure you, it is only going to be used against another nation, one that borders both your nation and their nation, but not against you, can you afford to take the chance? Would the Kaiser have been doing his duty to his people if he put blind faith in the words of the Tsar and took that chance?


    I believe the Tsar was an honorable man whose word could be trusted, but did the Kaiser know that, did the Kaiser believe that? Did the Kaiser wonder, "what happens if things start to change? He says they are mobilizing against Austria and only Austria, but what if things start to change, will he use the troops he has mobilized against Austria, against Germany?"



    Incidentally, Austria was unable to deal any sort of decisive blow against Serbia. Even without Russian mobilization, Austria would have been hard-pressed to crush Serbia because Austria-Hungary was a paper tiger.

    It wasn't until late 1915 when the Bulgarians threw their forces into the conflict that the Serb position really became precarious and then started to collapse.

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    Re: Western propaganda

    Post  Regular on Sat Apr 27, 2013 12:20 am

    Sorry to interfere, but we should rather end this discussion here, lets us stay with our opinions and respect each other. I don't like where it's going :/

    AlfaT8
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    Re: Western propaganda

    Post  AlfaT8 on Sat Apr 27, 2013 12:39 am

    Regular wrote:Sorry to interfere, but we should rather end this discussion here, lets us stay with our opinions and respect each other. I don't like where it's going :/
    Or at least move this discussion to its proper place. Mad

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    Re: Western propaganda

    Post  nemrod on Wed May 08, 2013 2:00 pm

    A crisp piece of filthy propaganda.
    In spite of their two lost wars in Afghanistan, and Iraq, the popularity is still perennial to do war. You can notice the war is not popular among who do it, who suffer, as US pilots, US marines, US Gi's, -in spite of Iam strongly against US war machine, and their criminal politics, I respect US soldiers, they are finally professionals, and very competent- but those who put their ass in front of a desktop, writing shit, and they are always invited in TV analysis, show, debate, forum, they always talk for you, even though I did not ask something. They are the more nationalists, the more courageous, the more moralists, if of course they stay behind their office -in french expression we say "Le cul au chaud", the ass protected-. These corwards are the worst warmongers.

    Take a look of this piece of shit :


    http://e-ring.foreignpolicy.com/posts/2013/05/07/how_much_would_a_no_fly_zone_over_a_syria_cost

    Christopher Harmer from this so-called Institut for the study of war, claimed that :
    ...That ends the Syrian Air Force in less than an hour
    A quick look of the very well design website http://www.understandingwar.org/ you learn that the big boss of is Miss Kimberley Kagan. Let's take a quick quote from Wikipedia


    She supported the surge in Iraq and has since advocated for an expanded and restructured American military campaign in Afghanistan.[2] In 2009 she served on Afghanistan commander Gen. Stanley McChrystal's strategic assessment team.
    This lady less than 40 years old, supported Surge strategy in Iraq. We know all, how its precious advises were usefull, because few years after, USA withdrew in a quiet and humiliating way from Iraq.
    We can see too, she was in Afghanistan, and advised very efficiently Mc Chrystal, her advices seemed to be very well followed, because USA decided to withdraw.
    What we can understand, the Miss Kagan's advices were cruel, and especially destructive for...USA.

    And now her so-called think tank is pushing toward a war against Syria, in spite of the US army's reluctancy, and objections.
    In fact who is Miss Kagan, else an israeli citizen, pushing USA in a war that would serve only Israel. Above her, we can easily identify the AIPAC, who are pushing since a long time ago the great war against Islamic world, in order to controll, and loot its underground wealth. And after against christian orthodox world, in order to transform the world, how they want.

    To summarize, Iam not military, I don't know exactly the state of Syrian air defense, and their aircrafts, however what Iam sure, in order to counteract -if Russia and China are OK, and this is far to be the case- Syrian air defense, it will take far more than an hour, if not several weeks, if Russia and China help Syria, it will take years, and years, as Iran will undoubtly help Syria, and behind Iran, there is Russia, and China.



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    Re: Western propaganda

    Post  flamming_python on Wed May 08, 2013 5:31 pm

    TR1 wrote:"Germany did not military lose in the First World War, it did not start the war, and it deserved better than Versailles."

    Also, I am sorry but this needs to be addressed. Without putting unnecessary blame on the Germans, we also should not excuse them in totality.
    1.) Germany turned what was a local Balkan war between Russia and Austria, into a European one. Then the French and British turned it into a fully European one. Everyone shares blame here.

    I'll also add that although the situation that occurred in August 1914 that led to the outbreak of WW1 was of course the precise consequence of the network of alliances and obligations in place at the time, the (wrong) reactions of the individual leaders and diplomats of involved countries to a very quickly developing situation, and the actions of a certain group of Yugoslav extremists who assassinated the crown-prince of Austria-Hungary.

    But without taking away from the role that individuals played in these events; nonetheless it has to be seen in a wider context:
    If more was done in those crucial few days then war could have been averted (and there were some serious efforts particularly on the part of Germany to convince Britain not to fulfill its obligations towards guaranteeing Belgian neutrality).
    - If Austria didn't purposely set unrealistic demands on Serbia (all but one of which were accepted by the Serbians)
    - If Germany agreed to Belgian neutrality or Britain agreed to be neutral themselves
    - If Russia wasn't so resolutely backing an increasingly assertive Serbia in the Balkans against Austrian encroachment there
    - If France had agreed to Germany's ultimatum to stay neutral

    But more wasn't done, and war wasn't averted - because for just about everyone; war with one or two of the parties involved - while not necessarily seen as desirable - was nonetheless seen as a means by which to solve certain problems and a jingonistic, pro-war atmosphere quickly took hold over Europe.
    - Britain depended on its fleet for security; its army paled in comparison to Germany's - thus Germany's rapid industrialisation and military shipbuilding which led to the German fleet being radically expanded since the start of the 20th century - was seen as a serious threat by the British
    - Austria-Hungary was an anachronism, a failing empire with a 40-50% Slavic population who by and large were discontent with the Hapsburg's rule over them, it's continuing imperial encroachment in the Balkans made conflict with Serbia and various Yugoslav extremists desirable and inevitable, and naturally made antagonism between Austria-Hungary and Russia inevitable too
    - Bismark was said to be wary about the potential of Russia to become an industrial/military 'collosus' in Europe that would be able to crush Germany, and while German-Russian relations were by no means bad during Bismark's times or later, many of these same old fears and paranoias lay below the surface and there was a certain motive to check Russia's power by 1914 before it became too powerful and back various independence movements in its Western territories
    - France was interested in regaining Alscase-Loraine which it lost to Germany some decades earlier; it's motives for war were very clear-cut in this sense, and was repocriated by the Germans as French-German antagonism had never ebbed down and both nations were diplomatically engaged in trying to isolate each other in the decades leading up to WW1
    - Italy, while neutral at the outbreak of hostilities, was interested in profiting off the war territorially and otherwise and was willing to enter the war on the side of the highest bidder (which turned out to be the Triple Entente)



    Last edited by flamming_python on Thu May 09, 2013 2:51 pm; edited 2 times in total

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    Re: Western propaganda

    Post  flamming_python on Wed May 08, 2013 5:37 pm

    As to what concerns Germany

    Well no-one's excusing them - it's perfectly clear that they were stirring the pot just as much as everybody else.

    But what's also clear is that they were the only ones blamed for it, and in fact for everything; with all the war-guilt and reparations that drained their economy and everything else. They were given very humiliating and harsh peace terms in 1918 (albeit the terms that Germany themselves gave to the Bolsheviks in 1918 were scarcely any more fair); and it's perfectly reasonable to sympathise with them on these grounds because in fact they were solely blamed and punished for something that in fact was everyone's doing.

    As a modern analogy you can take for example Serbia and the Yugoslav wars, NATO bombings in 1999. Exactly the same sort of thing.

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    Re: Western propaganda

    Post  Regular on Thu May 09, 2013 4:09 am

    nemrod wrote:...That ends the Syrian Air Force in less than an hour
    Not hard to believe knowing the state that it is now.
    To summarize, Iam not military, I don't know exactly the state of Syrian air defense, and their aircrafts, however what Iam sure, in order to counteract -if Russia and China are OK, and this is far to be the case- Syrian air defense, it will take far more than an hour, if not several weeks, if Russia and China help Syria, it will take years, and years, as Iran will undoubtly help Syria, and behind Iran, there is Russia, and China.

    According to reports from Syria, IAF already attacked targets belonging to Syrian regime.. 9 times...
    It looks that Israel is being used as proxy to end this war. No doubt in that.
    Despite S-300 from Russia, Syrian AD and AF couldn't stop Israel raids from happening.

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    Re: Western propaganda

    Post  BTRfan on Thu May 09, 2013 4:20 am

    flamming_python wrote:As to what concerns Germany

    Well no-one's excusing them - it's perfectly clear that they were stirring the pot just as much as everybody else.

    But what's also clear is that they were the only ones blamed for it, and in fact for everything; with all the war-guilt and reparations that drained their economy and everything else. They were given very humiliating and harsh peace terms in 1918 (albeit the terms that Germany themselves gave to the Bolsheviks in 1918 were scarcely any more fair); and it's perfectly reasonable to sympathise with them on these grounds because in fact they were solely blamed and punished for something that in fact was everyone's doing.

    As a modern analogy you can take for example Serbia and the Yugoslav wars, NATO bombings in 1999. Exactly the same sort of thing.


    World War One was unfortunate and could have been avoided if the various powers had been more understanding, more trusting, and more willing to rely on negotiations

    We cannot compare this at all to Serbia and the Yugoslav wars.

    The NATO bombing of Serbia was just an unprovoked act of naked aggression and one more step in the long Western game of isolating and dismantling Serbia.

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    Re: Western propaganda

    Post  TR1 on Thu May 09, 2013 7:08 am

    Well...the Serbs were not exactly candy themselves post Yugoslavia.

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    Re: Western propaganda

    Post  GarryB on Thu May 09, 2013 9:20 am

    Not hard to believe knowing the state that it is now.

    I doubt Nato could end a meeting in an hour let alone defeat even the lowliest air force.

    Remember the week they promised to defeat the Serbs in regarding Kosovo... more like 2 months and they had to trick the Russians into convincing them to lay down their arms with a false promise of being a part of the solution.

    BTW Have moved this thread here as I has not as much to do with US and NATO militaries as it does international politics.

    Well...the Serbs were not exactly candy themselves post Yugoslavia.

    None of the sides had clean hands, yet only one side was at fault if you believe the western media.


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    Re: Western propaganda

    Post  flamming_python on Thu May 09, 2013 2:44 pm

    TR1 wrote:Well...the Serbs were not exactly candy themselves post Yugoslavia.

    I didn't say they were; I'm saying that they were the only ones blamed for everything which is an analogous situation to Germany post-WW1 IMO; we all know how that all ended up later.

    BTRfan wrote:
    flamming_python wrote:As to what concerns Germany

    Well no-one's excusing them - it's perfectly clear that they were stirring the pot just as much as everybody else.

    But what's also clear is that they were the only ones blamed for it, and in fact for everything; with all the war-guilt and reparations that drained their economy and everything else. They were given very humiliating and harsh peace terms in 1918 (albeit the terms that Germany themselves gave to the Bolsheviks in 1918 were scarcely any more fair); and it's perfectly reasonable to sympathise with them on these grounds because in fact they were solely blamed and punished for something that in fact was everyone's doing.

    As a modern analogy you can take for example Serbia and the Yugoslav wars, NATO bombings in 1999. Exactly the same sort of thing.

    World War One was unfortunate and could have been avoided if the various powers had been more understanding, more trusting, and more willing to rely on negotiations

    We cannot compare this at all to Serbia and the Yugoslav wars.

    The NATO bombing of Serbia was just an unprovoked act of naked aggression and one more step in the long Western game of isolating and dismantling Serbia.

    I think the Yugoslav wars could have been avoided too if everyone down there was just a little less.. insane

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    Re: Western propaganda

    Post  BTRfan on Thu May 09, 2013 6:18 pm

    flamming_python wrote:
    TR1 wrote:Well...the Serbs were not exactly candy themselves post Yugoslavia.

    I didn't say they were; I'm saying that they were the only ones blamed for everything which is an analogous situation to Germany post-WW1 IMO; we all know how that all ended up later.

    BTRfan wrote:
    flamming_python wrote:As to what concerns Germany

    Well no-one's excusing them - it's perfectly clear that they were stirring the pot just as much as everybody else.

    But what's also clear is that they were the only ones blamed for it, and in fact for everything; with all the war-guilt and reparations that drained their economy and everything else. They were given very humiliating and harsh peace terms in 1918 (albeit the terms that Germany themselves gave to the Bolsheviks in 1918 were scarcely any more fair); and it's perfectly reasonable to sympathise with them on these grounds because in fact they were solely blamed and punished for something that in fact was everyone's doing.

    As a modern analogy you can take for example Serbia and the Yugoslav wars, NATO bombings in 1999. Exactly the same sort of thing.

    World War One was unfortunate and could have been avoided if the various powers had been more understanding, more trusting, and more willing to rely on negotiations

    We cannot compare this at all to Serbia and the Yugoslav wars.

    The NATO bombing of Serbia was just an unprovoked act of naked aggression and one more step in the long Western game of isolating and dismantling Serbia.

    I think the Yugoslav wars could have been avoided too if everyone down there was just a little less.. insane




    I never could understand why the Serbs and Croats have been at each other's throats for centuries. Aside from minor religious and very minor ethnic differences, they are largely the same. They speak the same language [I'm sorry if it offends anybody but I cannot speak of a Serbian language or a Croatian language, it is Serbo-Croatian, just as English in the northern USA is English and English in the southern USA is English, the same language with small regional differences], and they are all Christians [granted Catholic vs Orthodox], and they have all suffered under foreign occupations throughout their history.


    From what I've seen, the Serbs have been ready to put the past behind them and move on, but the Croats like to throw jabs at the Serbs, such as recognizing Kosovo.

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    Re: Western propaganda

    Post  flamming_python on Fri May 10, 2013 4:29 pm

    BTRfan wrote:I never could understand why the Serbs and Croats have been at each other's throats for centuries. Aside from minor religious and very minor ethnic differences, they are largely the same. They speak the same language [I'm sorry if it offends anybody but I cannot speak of a Serbian language or a Croatian language, it is Serbo-Croatian, just as English in the northern USA is English and English in the southern USA is English, the same language with small regional differences], and they are all Christians [granted Catholic vs Orthodox], and they have all suffered under foreign occupations throughout their history.

    From what I've seen, the Serbs have been ready to put the past behind them and move on, but the Croats like to throw jabs at the Serbs, such as recognizing Kosovo.

    They fight and fought in the past because the region has always been conquered, exploited or influenced by multiple outside powers who employed peoples there to square off against one another; Croatia was always under the patronage of Catholic & Central Europe, Serbia the Russians, Bosniaks the Turks and now the Albanians by the Americans.

    Nowadays, the old wounds freshly reopened because of economic collapse that accelerated nationalism in the late 80s/early 90s, and America and Europe who had an interest in cracking apart Yugoslavia. The place folded like a pack of cards.

    Now the Croats and Albanians are being used as pawns by the West but they all fail to see the big picture.

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    Russia 155th in 2013 Global Peace Index

    Post  GarryB on Thu Jun 13, 2013 3:48 am


    Russia 155th in 2013 Global Peace Index

    MOSCOW, June 12 (RIA Novosti) – Russia slid two places to 155th slot among 162 countries in the 2013 Global Peace Index, an annual report by a Sydney-based non-profit research group published Tuesday.
    Russia’s downgrade was due to simmering violence in the North Caucasus and the country’s growing role as a global arms supplier, the Institute for Economics and Peace said in its report.
    Russia ranked the worst of all post-Soviet countries. Globally, the only countries with a worse rating were the Democratic Republic of Congo, Pakistan, Sudan, Iraq, Syria, Somalia and Afghanistan.
    The rating was topped by Iceland, Denmark and New Zealand. The United Kingdom ranked 44th, the United States 99th, China 101st and India 141st.
    The world has become 5 percent less peaceful since 2008 due to a rising number of homicides, increased military spending and political instability, the report said.
    Violence cost the world almost $9.5 trillion in 2012, the report said.
    The Global Peace Index is compiled since 2007 and is based on data from the Economist Intelligence Unit. Russia ranked 118 of 121 countries in the 2007 rating.

    Why did I post this rubbish?


    This is a critical result actually!


    This is very important and needs to be published widely.

    The title is rubbish, this has nothing to do with peace, this is a morality index showing the countries that actually follow what the US preaches... the top countries are the ones that do as they are told and don't get in the way of western prosperity, but also respect human rights and all the crap the US talks about but never actually does itself.

    Russia rates low because it does not support the pro western agenda... rating it low because there are problems in the Caucsas and it exports weapons is funny because the US exports rather more weapons by a large margin and regularly invades countries without UN approval... not to mention its little Gulag in Guantanimo with non people held without legal procedure. Its war on drugs seems to be more about propping up friendly dictatorships in Central and South America who operate death squads and are the opposite of western political correctness than anything to do with dealing with drug production... which is largely ignored in Afghanistan.

    The thing that makes this pro western index so important and amusing is how badly the US and UK are actually doing measured by their own standards.


    They might invade a country because its leader is a dictator but they are happy to install dictators sympathetic to them when it suits them which is one of the reasons for their poor standing in their own index...

    Hahahahaha....

    source: http://en.rian.ru/world/20130612/181629606/Russia-155th-in-2013-Global-Peace-Index.html

    My comments above are awaiting moderation but should soon appear...


    _________________
    “The West won the world not by the superiority of its ideas or values or religion […] but rather by its superiority in applying organized violence. Westerners often forget this fact; non-Westerners never do.”

    ― Samuel P. Huntington, The Clash of Civilizations and the Remaking of World Order

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    Re: Western propaganda

    Post  Regular on Thu Jun 13, 2013 9:05 am

    Peace only made by Us bombs? NATO gets dragged in conflicts thanks to US.
    Funny thing is that while I was in Russia it looked peaceful to me. Smile
    My friend has business there, restaurant in Moscow. No racial attacks, nothing. Just nostalgic people who like pribaltika food, only thing he is afraid is bureaucracy. Not saying that Russia is safest place in the world, but 155 place... Ridiculous...

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