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    higurashihougi
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    Re: Western propaganda

    Post  higurashihougi on Thu Nov 17, 2016 5:02 am

    North Vietnam, China, and the Soviet Union do not answer to their citizens. South Vietnam and the US had to answer to theirs.

    What thẻ f*** is this shit ?

    So you mean Vietnamese citizen was forced to fight for their own country against US invader and the Saigon puppet, and Vietnam government did not respect their citizen like Saigon puppet government ?

    The North wanted unification. The South wanted partition.

    Vietnam wanted independence, unification, and wanted the US and her Ducangers to get the f*** out of Vietnam. The Saigon puppet government wanted to be the dog for Washington DC forever, because it was a dog created by the White House.

    This is a patriotic war not a civil war.

    Militarily speaking, the US controlled the Vietnamese airspace and the Vietnamese seaspace. Battle for the southern half was effective enough that North Vietnam had to violate the borders of Laos and Cambodia to create the Ho Chi Minh Trail to support the Viet Cong guerrilla force.

    You possesed a huge flying and floating fleet and you are boasting about bullying somebody who had nearly nothing.

    It is you who say cheating is OK in war so don't blame the Vietnamese for using whatever they had to support their comrades.

    If the political goal for South Vietnam and the US was for unification, the NVA by itself would have been defeated.

    Oh so the PAVN was spared by the mercy of Divine Uncle Sam, not because they managed to put up a good fight and forced the so-called mightly US to retreat ?

    And by the way you finally admit that the US wanted to DIVIDE Vietnam and PREVENT ITS UNIFICATION, right ?

    As such, material support for South Vietnam depends on the generosity of the US citizenry.

    What a docile puppet government.

    The point here is that the US military met all of its military objectives as defined by the political goal, which was flawed to start.

    Unluckly a number of Ducanger failed to understand so.

    The blame for the loss of South Vietnam rests on the civilian US leadership, not the military.

    Probably also the reason why cancers like F-12/SR-71, M16, F-22, F-35, B-2,... still persists in the US Army. And also why the US continued to use carpet bombing at Vietnam.

    Yeah...As if that is unique to the Americans. I wonder how many Soviet generals were living comfortably in their vacation dachas while young Soviet troops were dying in Afghanistan.

    At least the USSR leaders were not stupid enough to let their soldier being armed with M16 or AR-15.


    Last edited by higurashihougi on Thu Nov 17, 2016 5:40 am; edited 2 times in total
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    higurashihougi
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    Re: Western propaganda

    Post  higurashihougi on Thu Nov 17, 2016 5:17 am

    My lengthy reply was for your education.

    Thanks but no need.

    Yes, the US lost more aircrafts, fixed and rotary wings, than the NVAF, but in terms of percentage of loss, the NVAF had the greater loss, especially with their prized MIG-21 fleet.

    And so ? The US still had to retreat with the a** being kicked so bad, by someone who were having a much smaller air force.

    Not something to be proud about.

    The -21 is lighter, smaller, more maneuverable, and so on. Speaking of propaganda, they got so caught up in the propaganda over the jet that they never bothered to research if there are any instances where the -21 could be defeated.

    Yes MiG-21 can be defeated in certain circumstances, everybody knows that no aircraft is 100% invincible no matter how strong they are so STFU with your unneccessary "education". And so ?

    But the NVAF did performed poorly.

    If you insist to believe so...

    If the user manual says something like "The radar cannot be used in rain" then obviously you can counter this radar by flying in the rain.

    You are not the manual, and we have no reason to automatically believe whatever you say. If you want our belief, plz, proofs and reasons.

    You should care. You are participating in a discussion that touches many related subjects, ranging from technical to historical.

    I don't care about why Tolkachev cooperated with the US. I only care about proof and reason why the USSR cannot shoot down F-111.

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    Re: Western propaganda

    Post  havok on Thu Nov 17, 2016 5:52 am

    higurashihougi wrote:Thanks but no need.
    Judging from the last two posts, you need the education, whether you chose to accept it or not. It looks like am debating a teenager.

    Looky here, kid...

    Just because you are on this forum as a Viet, that does not mean you have a monopoly on everything regarding Viet Nam. Unfortunately for you, I am also a Viet. I am a survivor of the 1968 Tet Offensive. I have studied the Vietnam War more than you have, which am willing to guess that you pick and choose what you want to read. That is not a good education, whether it is formal or informal. I can see that you do not have good critical thinking skills and that you lack basic science education. Any comment on military issues beyond the usual language used in propaganda style will be lost on you.
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    GarryB
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    Re: Western propaganda

    Post  GarryB on Thu Nov 17, 2016 9:19 am

    Too bad the top brass were too late to embrace such logic. And in case of Vietnam, the US policy of not striking the North's airbases and other facilities, routinely, did not win them that war. Afaik northern airbases were never touched in that war. The US leadership had no idea how to run and win that conflict, at all.

    Yeah... obviously Americas mistake was they did not murder enough Vietnamese people at the time.

    Really funny that some people talk about what they should have done to win because it usually would have meant a longer and more bloody war... the idea that they had no business there in the first place never crosses their small minds...

    In criticizing the US regarding the Vietnam War, it is always convenient and deliberately inflammatory to go after the military leadership, after all, it is a war. But the reality is that the Vietnam War was micromanaged by the civilian leadership. That was not only a fact but also the greater truth. It is surprising that you do not know it.

    Hahahahaha... top marks... it was Hitlers fault... brilliant.

    This is a military oriented forum, of which I find most members have never served in whatever military of their countries, and of which their ignorance of military affairs is revealing.

    Well perhaps you could do a bit more background reading first... at least then you would know that Kilo and Mil are not Russian and that your attempts to educate higurashihougi regarding his own country are a little amusing... if condescending.

    Most people -- like you -- do not know of events like Operation Bolo where such events cuts straight to the heart of a debate.

    No, he is blinded by the damage your country did to the environment in his country with bio agents like Agent Orange and all the other colour agents used in Vietnam that no one talks about now except to get US soldiers healthcare support.

    He realises you tried really hard to murder his people... please accept he probably does not appreciate the finer points of when you were more successful than at other times.

    But the NVAF did performed poorly.

    Yeah, they gave up immediately... oops, no, they didn't... they took on two superpowers... france and then the merickans... three if you count the Chinese...

    Just because you are on this forum as a Viet, that does not mean you have a monopoly on everything regarding Viet Nam. Unfortunately for you, I am also a Viet. I am a survivor of the 1968 Tet Offensive.

    How delicious... just because you live in the remains of a country America once noticed but now remember as just being a name of a bad war they lost does not mean you understand the country you live in boy. You need to join the US military and threaten to detonate nuclear weapons in the capital city of the Soviet Union and then read all the western propaganda about how they deserve it before you are properly educated enough to be on the internet...

    I have studied the Vietnam War more than you have, which am willing to guess that you pick and choose what you want to read. That is not a good education, whether it is formal or informal. I can see that you do not have good critical thinking skills and that you lack basic science education. Any comment on military issues beyond the usual language used in propaganda style will be lost on you.

    There are at least two sides to every story... the western version of the Vietnam conflict is fairly well known and easy to come by... and not very convincing.

    The fact that he came to this forum suggests he wants an alternative view, or maybe he wants to talk about Russian and Soviet military equipment.

    Either way, I doubt you have much unbiased information to share.

    In the 60s and 70s it was justified to save Asia from communism... ironically if you had not supported South Vietnam there would have been no need for assistance from China and the Soviets and Vietnam would likely have not become so Communist driven.

    The same mistake in Cuba... the locals didn't want communism but given the choice of communism or imperialism they chose the lessor of two evils.

    What is the message now? Bomb China? Make Nike shoes? Buy Blue jeans and crap light trucks?


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    Re: Western propaganda

    Post  havok on Thu Nov 17, 2016 10:12 am

    GarryB wrote:The same mistake in Cuba... the locals didn't want communism but given the choice of communism or imperialism they chose the lessor of two evils.
    Really ? How many Americans float to Cuba to live in the "Worker's Paradise" as so often spouted by Soviet propaganda ?
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    higurashihougi
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    Re: Western propaganda

    Post  higurashihougi on Thu Nov 17, 2016 10:38 am

    havok wrote:
    GarryB wrote:The same mistake in Cuba... the locals didn't want communism but given the choice of communism or imperialism they chose the lessor of two evils.
    Really ? How many Americans float to Cuba to live in the "Worker's Paradise" as so often spouted by Soviet propaganda ?

    Really ? How many people live in Cuba, in comparison with the number of so-called Cuban emigree who choose the "Freedom Paradise" in America ?

    And why the Cubans supported the 1959 Revolution and supported the communist Fidel Castro, instead of living under the "freedom" of US-protected Batista regime ?

    Why did the 1959 Revolution suceeded, why the US-supported Batista regime was overthrown ? If the communist idea was sooo bad and the "freedom" of US-protected regime was sooo good, why Batista was overthrown ?

    No means of offence, but do your Ducangers have any novel and better arguments ?

    And by the way do you understand what is "cộng sản", "tư bản", or "chủ nghĩa xã hội" ? Or you just automatically say "cộng sản độc tài" without making a deep thinking about it ?
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    Re: Western propaganda

    Post  KiloGolf on Thu Nov 17, 2016 1:39 pm

    GarryB wrote:
    Too bad the top brass were too late to embrace such logic. And in case of Vietnam, the US policy of not striking the North's airbases and other facilities, routinely, did not win them that war. Afaik northern airbases were never touched in that war. The US leadership had no idea how to run and win that conflict, at all.

    Yeah... obviously Americas mistake was they did not murder enough Vietnamese people at the time.

    Really funny that some people talk about what they should have done to win because it usually would have meant a longer and more bloody war... the idea that they had no business there in the first place never crosses their small minds...

    Had they expanded their operations in the source of their problems (North) the US would likely and comfortably come on top and at least get to keep the South more than 1975 until USSR's collapse. And avoid loss of life too. China was unable to achieve much in the 1979 war with the Vietnamese, they would be positively trashed by hypothetical US forces stationed in the North.
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    miketheterrible
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    Re: Western propaganda

    Post  miketheterrible on Thu Nov 17, 2016 3:40 pm

    US couldn't face North Korea and China and have not won comfortably a war since ww2, and they came late to that party. So don't give us this bullshit they would have done wonders up north when they couldn't deal with it in friendly territory.
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    Re: Western propaganda

    Post  KiloGolf on Thu Nov 17, 2016 3:43 pm

    miketheterrible wrote:US couldn't face North Korea and China and have not won comfortably a war since ww2, and they came late to that party. So don't give us this bullshit they would have done wonders up north when they couldn't deal with it in friendly territory.

    The South was hardly friendly. The US refused to fight the enemy and the enemy was in Hanoi, Haiphong and the northern border areas.
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    Re: Western propaganda

    Post  miketheterrible on Thu Nov 17, 2016 4:04 pm

    KiloGolf wrote:
    miketheterrible wrote:US couldn't face North Korea and China and have not won comfortably a war since ww2, and they came late to that party. So don't give us this bullshit they would have done wonders up north when they couldn't deal with it in friendly territory.

    The South was hardly friendly. The US refused to fight the enemy and the enemy was in Hanoi, Haiphong and the northern border areas.

    If that is what helps you sleep at night, keep telling yourself that. But it was obvious after 50,000 bodies came back home to be buried gives us indication they were there fighting a war, not on vacation.
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    Re: Western propaganda

    Post  KiloGolf on Thu Nov 17, 2016 4:12 pm

    miketheterrible wrote:
    KiloGolf wrote:
    miketheterrible wrote:US couldn't face North Korea and China and have not won comfortably a war since ww2, and they came late to that party. So don't give us this bullshit they would have done wonders up north when they couldn't deal with it in friendly territory.

    The South was hardly friendly. The US refused to fight the enemy and the enemy was in Hanoi, Haiphong and the northern border areas.

    If that is what helps you sleep at night, keep telling yourself that. But it was obvious after 50,000 bodies came back home to be buried gives us indication they were there fighting a war, not on vacation.

    Had they finished the job in the North by 1965 or 1967, they could have potentially avoided lots of casualties.
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    Re: Western propaganda

    Post  miketheterrible on Thu Nov 17, 2016 4:18 pm

    Possibly, since it was early in the war. Not by 1970 though.
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    Hannibal Barca
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    Re: Western propaganda

    Post  Hannibal Barca on Thu Nov 17, 2016 10:27 pm

    Chinese hold USA to a draw in the 50s and beat them in the 70s. I think these days a proxy war between the two would be completely in favor of China.
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    Re: Western propaganda

    Post  KiloGolf on Thu Nov 17, 2016 11:27 pm

    Hannibal Barca wrote:Chinese hold USA to a draw in the 50s and beat them in the 70s. I think these days a proxy war between the two would be completely in favor of China.

    China was thoroughly surprised in Vietnam in 1979 and outmatched in Korea despite their superior numbers and momentum (July 1953).
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    Re: Western propaganda

    Post  kvs on Thu Nov 17, 2016 11:36 pm

    None of the above has relevance for today. The US cannot defeat Russia and it cannot defeat China. That does not mean that
    there will not be millions of dead civilians in those countries, but the US blowhards can only defeat them in their hubris rotted brains.
    Too many US politicians and pundits scale US military capability/capacity by their military budget. This is pathetic nonsense since
    the US MIC is a taxpayer gouging racket. The costs of the F-35 and the Zumwalt ammunition proves this. The US cannot
    build any submarine class for anywhere near as cheap as Russia and that has nothing to do with supposed US technological superiority.
    The more I hear the claims about ultra-quiet US submarines, the more I am convinced that there is nothing to back it up other than
    delusion. Quoting noise levels less than ocean background is simply retarded.
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    GarryB
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    Re: Western propaganda

    Post  GarryB on Fri Nov 18, 2016 10:06 am

    Really ? How many Americans float to Cuba to live in the "Worker's Paradise" as so often spouted by Soviet propaganda ?

    Why have there been bans on direct flights from the US to Cuba?

    Communism is blamed for all sorts of things, but the economy of China seems to have been growing for a while now...

    Had they expanded their operations in the source of their problems (North) the US would likely and comfortably come on top and at least get to keep the South more than 1975 until USSR's collapse.

    You sound very confident of that... would they also have won in Korea too if they had not been so soft?

    Even better if the US had just minded its own business and not dragged its allies (NZ, Australia, Canada etc) into a war that was really none of our business it would have been over much quicker with a fraction of the deaths and no cost to the US taxpayer.

    China was unable to achieve much in the 1979 war with the Vietnamese, they would be positively trashed by hypothetical US forces stationed in the North.

    What else could they do... hypothetical US forces are the best... didn't you know that?

    China was thoroughly surprised in Vietnam in 1979 and outmatched in Korea despite their superior numbers and momentum (July 1953).

    hahahaah... yeah, those outmatched Chinese pushed the UN forces all the way back to the 38th parallel... what part of that makes them outmatched?

    Bit like the outmatched Allied forces on D Day invading europe and pushing the superior german forces back to the rhine...


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    Walther von Oldenburg
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    Re: Western propaganda

    Post  Walther von Oldenburg on Fri Nov 18, 2016 3:13 pm

    Some facts about PLA of 1950:
    - Very little tanks and artillery
    - No air cover until Soviet entry into the war
    - Outdated command and control. No radios below regimental level, no telephone lines below battallion.
    - Few maps. Often regimental commanders did not even know what terrain is in front of them
    - Deficient recon
    - No mechanization.
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    Re: Western propaganda

    Post  KiloGolf on Fri Nov 18, 2016 3:19 pm

    GarryB wrote:hahahaah... yeah, those outmatched Chinese pushed the UN forces all the way back to the 38th parallel... what part of that makes them outmatched?

    Part where they got pushed back to the 38th twice.

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    Re: Western propaganda

    Post  eehnie on Fri Nov 18, 2016 4:37 pm

    KiloGolf wrote:
    GarryB wrote:hahahaah... yeah, those outmatched Chinese pushed the UN forces all the way back to the 38th parallel... what part of that makes them outmatched?

    Part where they got pushed back to the 38th twice.


    Twice? What? China entered in the war at the time of the second map, and stopped this offensive. China moved the front back to the South for the 3rd and 4th maps.


    Last edited by eehnie on Fri Nov 18, 2016 6:26 pm; edited 2 times in total
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    Re: Western propaganda

    Post  KiloGolf on Fri Nov 18, 2016 4:41 pm

    eehnie wrote:
    KiloGolf wrote:
    GarryB wrote:hahahaah... yeah, those outmatched Chinese pushed the UN forces all the way back to the 38th parallel... what part of that makes them outmatched?

    Part where they got pushed back to the 38th twice.


    Twice? What? China entered in the war at the time of the second map, and stopped this offensive. China moved the front back to the South for the 3rd and 4th maps.

    Depends what you understand as "entering". Both the Soviets and the Chinese were involved from day 1. And the UN forces always had the sea on their backs, unlike the commie Norks and Chinese that had two metropolitan powers over the border. Pushed back twice is what happened and had it not been for politicians and reluctant western leaders, fearing further escalation (an unfounded fear imo, esp after Stalin's death), the UN could have easily reached the Yalu for a second time. And secured it for good. Quite comfortably.
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    Re: Western propaganda

    Post  eehnie on Fri Nov 18, 2016 4:50 pm

    KiloGolf wrote:
    eehnie wrote:
    KiloGolf wrote:
    GarryB wrote:hahahaah... yeah, those outmatched Chinese pushed the UN forces all the way back to the 38th parallel... what part of that makes them outmatched?

    Part where they got pushed back to the 38th twice.


    Twice? What? China entered in the war at the time of the second map, and stopped this offensive. China moved the front back to the South for the 3rd and 4th maps.

    Depends what you understand as "entering". Both the Soviets and the Chinese were involved from day 1. And the UN forces always had the sea on their backs, unlike the commie Norks and Chinese that had two metropolitan powers over the border. Pushed back twice is what happened and had it not been for politicians and reluctant western leaders, fearing further escalation (an unfounded fear imo, esp after Stalin's death), the UN could have easily reached the Yalu for a second time. And secured it for good. Quite comfortably.

    Entering the own trops. The Chinese infantry divissions crossed the borders at the time of the second map.

    North Korea attacked South Korea. the US and the UN entered in the war at the time of the first map. China entered at the the time of the second map.

    China forced between the 2nd and the 3rd map the biggest retreats of the US in their history. And they were not alone. If you want we can detail which countries were in the UN coalition.


    Last edited by eehnie on Fri Nov 18, 2016 4:56 pm; edited 2 times in total
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    Re: Western propaganda

    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Fri Nov 18, 2016 4:51 pm

    havok wrote: Like the man's comment about the movie Independence Day was really professional.

    at your level or professionalism and admiral Kirby´s too Smile


    higurashihougi wrote:
    havok wrote:[What Tolkachev confirmed was that the Soviet air defense system had no radar coverage that could reliably detect low altitude flyers, let alone a flight of F-111s determined to penetrate Soviet airspace with tools designed to make such detection even more difficult.


    And what are his reasons and proofs ?

    C´mon muricans need no proves ! +look at this lightweight and short Psaki called admiral Kirby Razz Razz Razz he is th ebest proof to what i say Smile
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    Re: Western propaganda

    Post  KiloGolf on Fri Nov 18, 2016 4:55 pm

    eehnie wrote:Entering the own trops. The Chinese infantry divissions crossed the borders at the time of the second map.

    Correct and even that, 3 million man force got spectacularly pushed back to the 38th within a month or so. Mao got his son wasted during that blunder of theirs. The fighting ability of the Chinese from the '50s till the late '70s was poor, Soviets knew that. Hence Soviet-backed and trained Vietnam massacred them in '79. Vietnam got to keep Cambodia till 1989 too while China tried to compensate by allying with... USA. lol1


    Last edited by KiloGolf on Fri Nov 18, 2016 5:01 pm; edited 1 time in total
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    Re: Western propaganda

    Post  eehnie on Fri Nov 18, 2016 5:01 pm

    KiloGolf wrote:
    eehnie wrote:Entering the own trops. The Chinese infantry divissions crossed the borders at the time of the second map.

    Correct and even that, 3 million man force got pushed back to the 38th eventually. Mao got his son wasted during that blunder of theirs. The fighting ability of the Chinese from the '50s till the late '70s was poor, Soviets knew that. Hence Soviet-backed and trained Vietnam massacred them in '79.

    These numbers are not clear but as said China forced the biggest retreat of the US in their history, between the second and the third map. Big and painful defeats for the US there. For the US and for all the countries supporting them with men in the frontline.
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    Re: Western propaganda

    Post  Walther von Oldenburg on Fri Nov 18, 2016 5:01 pm

    The Chinese still had to be admired for what they did.

    I outlined all weaknesses of PLA in my last post, their army was almost at WW1 level (minus the industrial potential of an average WW1 participant). Their victories are very remarkable even if they needed 3x more man and 5x more casualties to achieve that.

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