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    higurashihougi
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    Re: Western propaganda

    Post  higurashihougi on Thu Nov 17, 2016 10:38 am

    havok wrote:
    GarryB wrote:The same mistake in Cuba... the locals didn't want communism but given the choice of communism or imperialism they chose the lessor of two evils.
    Really ? How many Americans float to Cuba to live in the "Worker's Paradise" as so often spouted by Soviet propaganda ?

    Really ? How many people live in Cuba, in comparison with the number of so-called Cuban emigree who choose the "Freedom Paradise" in America ?

    And why the Cubans supported the 1959 Revolution and supported the communist Fidel Castro, instead of living under the "freedom" of US-protected Batista regime ?

    Why did the 1959 Revolution suceeded, why the US-supported Batista regime was overthrown ? If the communist idea was sooo bad and the "freedom" of US-protected regime was sooo good, why Batista was overthrown ?

    No means of offence, but do your Ducangers have any novel and better arguments ?

    And by the way do you understand what is "cộng sản", "tư bản", or "chủ nghĩa xã hội" ? Or you just automatically say "cộng sản độc tài" without making a deep thinking about it ?

    KiloGolf
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    Re: Western propaganda

    Post  KiloGolf on Thu Nov 17, 2016 1:39 pm

    GarryB wrote:
    Too bad the top brass were too late to embrace such logic. And in case of Vietnam, the US policy of not striking the North's airbases and other facilities, routinely, did not win them that war. Afaik northern airbases were never touched in that war. The US leadership had no idea how to run and win that conflict, at all.

    Yeah... obviously Americas mistake was they did not murder enough Vietnamese people at the time.

    Really funny that some people talk about what they should have done to win because it usually would have meant a longer and more bloody war... the idea that they had no business there in the first place never crosses their small minds...

    Had they expanded their operations in the source of their problems (North) the US would likely and comfortably come on top and at least get to keep the South more than 1975 until USSR's collapse. And avoid loss of life too. China was unable to achieve much in the 1979 war with the Vietnamese, they would be positively trashed by hypothetical US forces stationed in the North.

    miketheterrible
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    Re: Western propaganda

    Post  miketheterrible on Thu Nov 17, 2016 3:40 pm

    US couldn't face North Korea and China and have not won comfortably a war since ww2, and they came late to that party. So don't give us this bullshit they would have done wonders up north when they couldn't deal with it in friendly territory.

    KiloGolf
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    Re: Western propaganda

    Post  KiloGolf on Thu Nov 17, 2016 3:43 pm

    miketheterrible wrote:US couldn't face North Korea and China and have not won comfortably a war since ww2, and they came late to that party. So don't give us this bullshit they would have done wonders up north when they couldn't deal with it in friendly territory.

    The South was hardly friendly. The US refused to fight the enemy and the enemy was in Hanoi, Haiphong and the northern border areas.

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    Re: Western propaganda

    Post  miketheterrible on Thu Nov 17, 2016 4:04 pm

    KiloGolf wrote:
    miketheterrible wrote:US couldn't face North Korea and China and have not won comfortably a war since ww2, and they came late to that party. So don't give us this bullshit they would have done wonders up north when they couldn't deal with it in friendly territory.

    The South was hardly friendly. The US refused to fight the enemy and the enemy was in Hanoi, Haiphong and the northern border areas.

    If that is what helps you sleep at night, keep telling yourself that. But it was obvious after 50,000 bodies came back home to be buried gives us indication they were there fighting a war, not on vacation.

    KiloGolf
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    Re: Western propaganda

    Post  KiloGolf on Thu Nov 17, 2016 4:12 pm

    miketheterrible wrote:
    KiloGolf wrote:
    miketheterrible wrote:US couldn't face North Korea and China and have not won comfortably a war since ww2, and they came late to that party. So don't give us this bullshit they would have done wonders up north when they couldn't deal with it in friendly territory.

    The South was hardly friendly. The US refused to fight the enemy and the enemy was in Hanoi, Haiphong and the northern border areas.

    If that is what helps you sleep at night, keep telling yourself that. But it was obvious after 50,000 bodies came back home to be buried gives us indication they were there fighting a war, not on vacation.

    Had they finished the job in the North by 1965 or 1967, they could have potentially avoided lots of casualties.

    miketheterrible
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    Re: Western propaganda

    Post  miketheterrible on Thu Nov 17, 2016 4:18 pm

    Possibly, since it was early in the war. Not by 1970 though.

    Hannibal Barca
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    Re: Western propaganda

    Post  Hannibal Barca on Thu Nov 17, 2016 10:27 pm

    Chinese hold USA to a draw in the 50s and beat them in the 70s. I think these days a proxy war between the two would be completely in favor of China.

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    Re: Western propaganda

    Post  KiloGolf on Thu Nov 17, 2016 11:27 pm

    Hannibal Barca wrote:Chinese hold USA to a draw in the 50s and beat them in the 70s. I think these days a proxy war between the two would be completely in favor of China.

    China was thoroughly surprised in Vietnam in 1979 and outmatched in Korea despite their superior numbers and momentum (July 1953).

    kvs
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    Re: Western propaganda

    Post  kvs on Thu Nov 17, 2016 11:36 pm

    None of the above has relevance for today. The US cannot defeat Russia and it cannot defeat China. That does not mean that
    there will not be millions of dead civilians in those countries, but the US blowhards can only defeat them in their hubris rotted brains.
    Too many US politicians and pundits scale US military capability/capacity by their military budget. This is pathetic nonsense since
    the US MIC is a taxpayer gouging racket. The costs of the F-35 and the Zumwalt ammunition proves this. The US cannot
    build any submarine class for anywhere near as cheap as Russia and that has nothing to do with supposed US technological superiority.
    The more I hear the claims about ultra-quiet US submarines, the more I am convinced that there is nothing to back it up other than
    delusion. Quoting noise levels less than ocean background is simply retarded.

    GarryB
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    Re: Western propaganda

    Post  GarryB on Fri Nov 18, 2016 10:06 am

    Really ? How many Americans float to Cuba to live in the "Worker's Paradise" as so often spouted by Soviet propaganda ?

    Why have there been bans on direct flights from the US to Cuba?

    Communism is blamed for all sorts of things, but the economy of China seems to have been growing for a while now...

    Had they expanded their operations in the source of their problems (North) the US would likely and comfortably come on top and at least get to keep the South more than 1975 until USSR's collapse.

    You sound very confident of that... would they also have won in Korea too if they had not been so soft?

    Even better if the US had just minded its own business and not dragged its allies (NZ, Australia, Canada etc) into a war that was really none of our business it would have been over much quicker with a fraction of the deaths and no cost to the US taxpayer.

    China was unable to achieve much in the 1979 war with the Vietnamese, they would be positively trashed by hypothetical US forces stationed in the North.

    What else could they do... hypothetical US forces are the best... didn't you know that?

    China was thoroughly surprised in Vietnam in 1979 and outmatched in Korea despite their superior numbers and momentum (July 1953).

    hahahaah... yeah, those outmatched Chinese pushed the UN forces all the way back to the 38th parallel... what part of that makes them outmatched?

    Bit like the outmatched Allied forces on D Day invading europe and pushing the superior german forces back to the rhine...


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    “The West won the world not by the superiority of its ideas or values or religion […] but rather by its superiority in applying organized violence. Westerners often forget this fact; non-Westerners never do.”

    ― Samuel P. Huntington, The Clash of Civilizations and the Remaking of World Order

    Walther von Oldenburg
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    Re: Western propaganda

    Post  Walther von Oldenburg on Fri Nov 18, 2016 3:13 pm

    Some facts about PLA of 1950:
    - Very little tanks and artillery
    - No air cover until Soviet entry into the war
    - Outdated command and control. No radios below regimental level, no telephone lines below battallion.
    - Few maps. Often regimental commanders did not even know what terrain is in front of them
    - Deficient recon
    - No mechanization.

    KiloGolf
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    Re: Western propaganda

    Post  KiloGolf on Fri Nov 18, 2016 3:19 pm

    GarryB wrote:hahahaah... yeah, those outmatched Chinese pushed the UN forces all the way back to the 38th parallel... what part of that makes them outmatched?

    Part where they got pushed back to the 38th twice.


    eehnie
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    Re: Western propaganda

    Post  eehnie on Fri Nov 18, 2016 4:37 pm

    KiloGolf wrote:
    GarryB wrote:hahahaah... yeah, those outmatched Chinese pushed the UN forces all the way back to the 38th parallel... what part of that makes them outmatched?

    Part where they got pushed back to the 38th twice.


    Twice? What? China entered in the war at the time of the second map, and stopped this offensive. China moved the front back to the South for the 3rd and 4th maps.


    Last edited by eehnie on Fri Nov 18, 2016 6:26 pm; edited 2 times in total

    KiloGolf
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    Re: Western propaganda

    Post  KiloGolf on Fri Nov 18, 2016 4:41 pm

    eehnie wrote:
    KiloGolf wrote:
    GarryB wrote:hahahaah... yeah, those outmatched Chinese pushed the UN forces all the way back to the 38th parallel... what part of that makes them outmatched?

    Part where they got pushed back to the 38th twice.


    Twice? What? China entered in the war at the time of the second map, and stopped this offensive. China moved the front back to the South for the 3rd and 4th maps.

    Depends what you understand as "entering". Both the Soviets and the Chinese were involved from day 1. And the UN forces always had the sea on their backs, unlike the commie Norks and Chinese that had two metropolitan powers over the border. Pushed back twice is what happened and had it not been for politicians and reluctant western leaders, fearing further escalation (an unfounded fear imo, esp after Stalin's death), the UN could have easily reached the Yalu for a second time. And secured it for good. Quite comfortably.

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    Re: Western propaganda

    Post  eehnie on Fri Nov 18, 2016 4:50 pm

    KiloGolf wrote:
    eehnie wrote:
    KiloGolf wrote:
    GarryB wrote:hahahaah... yeah, those outmatched Chinese pushed the UN forces all the way back to the 38th parallel... what part of that makes them outmatched?

    Part where they got pushed back to the 38th twice.


    Twice? What? China entered in the war at the time of the second map, and stopped this offensive. China moved the front back to the South for the 3rd and 4th maps.

    Depends what you understand as "entering". Both the Soviets and the Chinese were involved from day 1. And the UN forces always had the sea on their backs, unlike the commie Norks and Chinese that had two metropolitan powers over the border. Pushed back twice is what happened and had it not been for politicians and reluctant western leaders, fearing further escalation (an unfounded fear imo, esp after Stalin's death), the UN could have easily reached the Yalu for a second time. And secured it for good. Quite comfortably.

    Entering the own trops. The Chinese infantry divissions crossed the borders at the time of the second map.

    North Korea attacked South Korea. the US and the UN entered in the war at the time of the first map. China entered at the the time of the second map.

    China forced between the 2nd and the 3rd map the biggest retreats of the US in their history. And they were not alone. If you want we can detail which countries were in the UN coalition.


    Last edited by eehnie on Fri Nov 18, 2016 4:56 pm; edited 2 times in total

    GunshipDemocracy
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    Re: Western propaganda

    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Fri Nov 18, 2016 4:51 pm

    havok wrote: Like the man's comment about the movie Independence Day was really professional.

    at your level or professionalism and admiral Kirby´s too Smile


    higurashihougi wrote:
    havok wrote:[What Tolkachev confirmed was that the Soviet air defense system had no radar coverage that could reliably detect low altitude flyers, let alone a flight of F-111s determined to penetrate Soviet airspace with tools designed to make such detection even more difficult.


    And what are his reasons and proofs ?

    C´mon muricans need no proves ! +look at this lightweight and short Psaki called admiral Kirby Razz Razz Razz he is th ebest proof to what i say Smile

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    Re: Western propaganda

    Post  KiloGolf on Fri Nov 18, 2016 4:55 pm

    eehnie wrote:Entering the own trops. The Chinese infantry divissions crossed the borders at the time of the second map.

    Correct and even that, 3 million man force got spectacularly pushed back to the 38th within a month or so. Mao got his son wasted during that blunder of theirs. The fighting ability of the Chinese from the '50s till the late '70s was poor, Soviets knew that. Hence Soviet-backed and trained Vietnam massacred them in '79. Vietnam got to keep Cambodia till 1989 too while China tried to compensate by allying with... USA. lol1


    Last edited by KiloGolf on Fri Nov 18, 2016 5:01 pm; edited 1 time in total

    eehnie
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    Re: Western propaganda

    Post  eehnie on Fri Nov 18, 2016 5:01 pm

    KiloGolf wrote:
    eehnie wrote:Entering the own trops. The Chinese infantry divissions crossed the borders at the time of the second map.

    Correct and even that, 3 million man force got pushed back to the 38th eventually. Mao got his son wasted during that blunder of theirs. The fighting ability of the Chinese from the '50s till the late '70s was poor, Soviets knew that. Hence Soviet-backed and trained Vietnam massacred them in '79.

    These numbers are not clear but as said China forced the biggest retreat of the US in their history, between the second and the third map. Big and painful defeats for the US there. For the US and for all the countries supporting them with men in the frontline.

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    Re: Western propaganda

    Post  Walther von Oldenburg on Fri Nov 18, 2016 5:01 pm

    The Chinese still had to be admired for what they did.

    I outlined all weaknesses of PLA in my last post, their army was almost at WW1 level (minus the industrial potential of an average WW1 participant). Their victories are very remarkable even if they needed 3x more man and 5x more casualties to achieve that.

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    Re: Western propaganda

    Post  KiloGolf on Fri Nov 18, 2016 5:03 pm

    eehnie wrote:These numbers are not clear but as said China forced the biggest retreat of the US in their history, between the second and the third map. Big and painful defeats for the US there. For the US and for all the countries supporting them with men in the frontline.

    Nope. They only had to push back as allied Korean units were loosing the plot and they were not prepared to face off with an Army of millions.

    Eventually they came out on top quite swiftly, pushing all these millions to the 38th and forcing the commies to stop the war that they started. Remember major US deployment started with the Pusan pocket. Fast forward to 2016 South Korea is global economic power house and regional military power. While the North is a poor, deplorable wasteland.

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    Re: Western propaganda

    Post  eehnie on Fri Nov 18, 2016 5:32 pm

    KiloGolf wrote:
    eehnie wrote:These numbers are not clear but as said China forced the biggest retreat of the US in their history, between the second and the third map. Big and painful defeats for the US there. For the US and for all the countries supporting them with men in the frontline.

    Nope. They only had to push back as allied Korean units were loosing the plot and they were not prepared to face off with an Army of millions.

    Eventually they came out on top quite swiftly, pushing all these millions to the 38th and forcing the commies to stop the war that they started. Remember major US deployment started with the Pusan pocket. Fast forward to 2016 South Korea is global economic power house and regional military power. While the North is a poor, deplorable wasteland.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Onjong

    Result: Chinese victory

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Unsan

    Result: Chinese victory

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_the_Ch%27ongch%27on_River

    Result: Decisive Chinese victory

    Territorial changes: Communists regain control of all areas north of the 38th parallel

    They history related by the losers (US) of these battles.


    Last edited by eehnie on Fri Nov 18, 2016 6:01 pm; edited 1 time in total

    KiloGolf
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    Re: Western propaganda

    Post  KiloGolf on Fri Nov 18, 2016 5:42 pm

    eehnie wrote:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Onjong

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Unsan

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_the_Ch%27ongch%27on_River

    They history related by the losers (US) of these battles.

    And? Some battles =/= all battles =/= the war.
    UN still came out on top. Look at today's border in Korea.

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    Re: Western propaganda

    Post  eehnie on Fri Nov 18, 2016 6:02 pm

    KiloGolf wrote:
    eehnie wrote:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Onjong

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Unsan

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_the_Ch%27ongch%27on_River

    They history related by the losers (US) of these battles.

    And? Some battles =/= all battles =/= the war.
    UN still came out on top. Look at today's border in Korea.

    You said no, and it was yes. Big and painful defeats for the US in the transition from the second to the third map. And also for all their allies. Just after the entry of China in the war.


    Last edited by eehnie on Fri Nov 18, 2016 6:08 pm; edited 1 time in total

    KiloGolf
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    Re: Western propaganda

    Post  KiloGolf on Fri Nov 18, 2016 6:05 pm

    eehnie wrote:You said no, and it was yes. Big and painful defeats for the US in the transition from the second to the third map. And also for all their allies.

    What? Nope. I said the commies were pushed back twice, as it happened.
    Korea is not a US defeat, it's a western success story.

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