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    havok
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    Re: Western propaganda

    Post  havok on Tue Nov 15, 2016 10:35 am

    GarryB wrote:What exactly did he confirm?
    That Soviet air defense had no radar capable of detecting a low flying F-111.

    GarryB wrote:Is he like the Iraqi defectors claiming Saddam had weaponised WMDs that took 45 minutes to deploy?
    Nothing like that at all. Wink

    GarryB wrote:Even a MiG-29 would eat an F-111 for breakfast... a Flanker would kick your ass.

    There is a reason the MiG-31s most famous intercept during testing was a target 20km away at 20m altitude while flying at over 6,000m altitude with an R-33... that is shooting down an F-111 or a Tornado trying to penetrate Soviet airspace... at that altitude the MiG-31 or MiG-25 can fly twice as fast as the F-111 can at very low altitude...
    Every time I read something like this, I know the person is a poseur, not even amateur for an amateur requires at least the minimum experience.

    Sure, under the ideal conditions, even a Sopwith Camel can shoot down an F-22. But the problem for the poseur is that he does not understand that in war, avoidance of the ideal conditions is paramount. You think it is that easy to find an aircraft despite the plethora of radar systems you can deploy ? Further, you seems not to know the difference between detection and identification.

    The F-111 was never designed as a 'dogfighter', although it is more maneuverable than people think. But once I am in hard TF at minimum altitude, sorry, pal, find me first before you can start launching missiles. I am not here to put myself into that ideal conditions for you.

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    Re: Western propaganda

    Post  havok on Tue Nov 15, 2016 10:39 am

    Militarov wrote:Yeah, i watched Independence Day 6 times i am aware what you can do.
    I would expect that you, as a claimed Russian air defense officer, would have received even some basic analyses of what happened in Desert Storm, instead of sci-fi movies. From one professional to another, am sorry to hear that your military has deteriorated to that condition.

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    Re: Western propaganda

    Post  havok on Tue Nov 15, 2016 10:46 am

    higurashihougi wrote:Could you please explain to me why Su-15, MiG-25, MiG-31, or even Su-27 and MiG-29 cannot do anything to F-111.
    Hmmm...I can see that you need further education.

    When I said 'response', what I meant was that the overall response have lower levels of responses. You cannot simply sent up fighters and expect them to magically know where the enemy is. The first response for air defense is detection, next is identification. What Tolkachev confirmed was that the Soviet air defense system had no radar coverage that could reliably detect low altitude flyers, let alone a flight of F-111s determined to penetrate Soviet airspace with tools designed to make such detection even more difficult.

    higurashihougi wrote:About the Iraqi army, I would like to say that, the USSR had many students but not all of them were good students. Iraq lost the battle, but a certain country with MiG-21 and SA-75 did not easily give up the battle like that.
    That certain country with MIG-21s ? Look up Operation Bolo.

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    Re: Western propaganda

    Post  higurashihougi on Tue Nov 15, 2016 11:04 am

    havok wrote:That certain country with MIG-21s ? Look up Operation Bolo.

    Congratulation on your successful ambushes, but I actually look at the whole war and I see that the losses of MiGs was much much lower than American Fs. Not to mention that, this country did not possess a vast flying fleet like America.

    I also see that BOMBER MiG-19 managed to knocked down two F-4s.

    What Tolkachev confirmed was that the Soviet air defense system had no radar coverage that could reliably detect low altitude flyers, let alone a flight of F-111s determined to penetrate Soviet airspace with tools designed to make such detection even more difficult.

    And what are his reasons and proofs ?

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    Re: Western propaganda

    Post  AlfaT8 on Tue Nov 15, 2016 11:13 pm

    Yea, yea, these guys are known idiots, but they chose such a weird topic.


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    Re: Western propaganda

    Post  Militarov on Wed Nov 16, 2016 12:12 am

    havok wrote:
    Militarov wrote:Yeah, i watched Independence Day 6 times i am aware what you can do.
    I would expect that you, as a claimed Russian air defense officer, would have received even some basic analyses of what happened in Desert Storm, instead of sci-fi movies. From one professional to another, am sorry to hear that your military has deteriorated to that condition.

    I am not Russian, i am Serbian. And i served after both Gulf Wars.

    While i am very well aware of the ground, cloud, water and various other reflections which you could use to hide during low lvl penetration... where exactly would you hide F-111s flying towards Moscow? Did you guys ever bother checking those penetration paths you were given? Its flatland around Moscow, nowhere to hide for hundreds of miles.

    Also USSR had literally hundreds of low altitude recon radars, some of which my unit used too P-14, P-15/M3, P-12NP/NA, P-18/ML, P-19. Unlike other equpment radars were very rarely discarted from service but rather canibalized gradually to keep older models in service or modernised but kept in service, so Soviets had impressive overlaping radar coverage on many different bands and radiation modes.

    On top of everything Soviets had fixed site VHF/UHF radars as part of ABM which could track fairly easy major air assets movements in good part of the Europe even tho it was not their task originally.

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    Re: Western propaganda

    Post  miketheterrible on Wed Nov 16, 2016 12:44 am

    Militarov wrote:
    havok wrote:
    Militarov wrote:Yeah, i watched Independence Day 6 times i am aware what you can do.
    I would expect that you, as a claimed Russian air defense officer, would have received even some basic analyses of what happened in Desert Storm, instead of sci-fi movies. From one professional to another, am sorry to hear that your military has deteriorated to that condition.

    I am not Russian, i am Serbian. And i served after both Gulf Wars.

    While i am very well aware of the ground, cloud, water and various other reflections which you could use to hide during low lvl penetration... where exactly would you hide F-111s flying towards Moscow? Did you guys ever bother checking those penetration paths you were given? Its flatland around Moscow, nowhere to hide for hundreds of miles.

    Also USSR had literally hundreds of low altitude recon radars, some of which my unit used too P-14, P-15/M3, P-12NP/NA, P-18/ML, P-19. Unlike other equpment radars were very rarely discarted from service but rather canibalized gradually to keep older models in service or modernised but kept in service, so Soviets had impressive overlaping radar coverage on many different bands and radiation modes.

    On top of everything Soviets had fixed site VHF/UHF radars as part of ABM which could track fairly easy major air assets movements in good part of the Europe even tho it was not their task originally.

    You are aware the guy is a troll, and a bad one at that too, right? He hasn't brought any evidence and just talks a lot.  Even down syndrome people can look up what the Soviets and Russians had/have in order to deal with all kinds of threats but this guy continues to talk nonsense.

    His evidence is trying to attack others militaries or training or whatever with a single sentence such as:

    From one professional to another, am sorry to hear that your military has deteriorated to that condition.

    Cant get more pathetic than that.

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    Re: Western propaganda

    Post  GarryB on Wed Nov 16, 2016 10:12 am

    That Soviet air defense had no radar capable of detecting a low flying F-111.

    Hahahahaha... the radar of a MiG-31 could easily detect and shoot down an F-111... why do you think they were withdrawn from service...

    Further, you seems not to know the difference between detection and identification.

    Whether the F-111 is identified as an F-111 or a cruise missile... it will be detected and shot down...

    The F-111 was never designed as a 'dogfighter', although it is more maneuverable than people think.

    Manouverable enough to dodge missiles?

    But once I am in hard TF at minimum altitude, sorry, pal, find me first before you can start launching missiles. I am not here to put myself into that ideal conditions for you.

    A MiG-31 at 8,000m can cover ground twice as fast as you can and he can see you clearly and shoot you down at will. His radar is designed specifically to find you and his missiles are designed specifically to kill you... unless a Fulcrum or Flanker does it first.

    I would expect that you, as a claimed Russian air defense officer, would have received even some basic analyses of what happened in Desert Storm, instead of sci-fi movies. From one professional to another, am sorry to hear that your military has deteriorated to that condition.

    Hahahaha... he is better than a Russian Air Defence Officer... he has experience against NATO...

    Cant get more pathetic than that.

    Good call... this guy is so brainwash and pathetic in his hate for all things non American... maybe his is the real thing... but who cares.

    Personally I don't care whether he thinks America is still able to murder people in large numbers... what a prick. They certainly haven't been able to feed many, or teach them about democracy and morals... just kill them and pinch their oil.


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    havok
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    Re: Western propaganda

    Post  havok on Thu Nov 17, 2016 1:09 am

    higurashihougi wrote:Congratulation on your successful ambushes, but I actually look at the whole war and I see that the losses of MiGs was much much lower than American Fs. Not to mention that, this country did not possess a vast flying fleet like America.

    I also see that BOMBER MiG-19 managed to knocked down two F-4s.
    For the sake of brevity, North Vietnamese Air Force (NVAF) will be used.

    You claimed to have 'look at the whole war', but it seems you did not see much.

    Speaking of ambushes, that was all the NVAF knew how to do. The fleet was small so the NVAF had to restrict their usage to missions that would minimize the odds of loss of even one combat capable fighter. NVAF sorties were against heavily laden US fighter-bombers, like the F-105. When the NVAF pilots attacked, the tactic was 'slash and dash'. They basically dived from a higher altitude, shot at a few fighters, then ran. What the US pilots did was reacted as expected -- they discarded their bombs so they could be lighter to maneuver. There were no 'Top Gun' movie style air combat maneuver (ACM) involved. In forcing the US pilots to jettisoned their bombs, the NVAF pilots reduced some measure of damages that could have been done against home soil. The results are that very few MIGs were shot down and high NVAF aces. Points for cheering by those who really did not look at the details.

    As for Operation Bolo, it proved what combat pilots always knew -- it is the man that counts. It does not mean that WW I Manfred von Richthofen in his Fokker can win against WW II Thomas McGuire in his P-38. Machines do impose limitations on a pilot's skills, creativity, and drive to win. While the MIG-21 and F-4 may have their differences, they are essentially in the same generation of combat fighters, and Operation Bolo proved that the man mattered.

    So here is a lesson to you and anyone in this forum who is willing to learn, even if the lesson came from an American: In combat, you win not by fighting under your opponent's rules, but by forcing him to fight under yours, and cheating is allowed.

    To remain with air combat, any advantage you have is a rule. If you have superior thrust, force the fight to vertical. If you have superior turn capability, force the fight horizontal. If you have superior radar, hit from afar. If you are small, get yourself lost in ground clutter and attack from where least expected -- from below.

    Do you see the point ?

    In Operation Bolo, the Americans knew that the NVAF pilots were restricted to only one tactic that just happened to involved very little ACM. So to force the NVAF pilots to fight under American rules, the Americans had to break up the NVAF formation into individual units and gang up on the individual.

    Ambushes are nothing new. If you are a victim in an ambush, the first response is to take cover such as get to ground. In air combat, the first response is to violently maneuver. A steady state aircraft is a dead aircraft. Then everyone report to the flight commander his status. It is the responsibility of the flight commander to reorganize and formulate a group response. If the flight commander have poor situational awareness (SA), either because of his personal skills as a pilot or because the immediate emergency situation prevented him from knowing, then the flight is essentially lost. That is what happened in Operation Bolo.

    So despite the fact that the F-4 were inferior to the MIG-21 in several capabilities, in a single engagement, the NVAF lost half of their MIG-21 fleet. The American pilots essentially knew their F-4s better than the North Vietnamese pilots knew their MIGs. The NVAF pilots received their training from the Chinese who received theirs from the Soviets. After Operation Bolo, the NVAF grounded the rest of the MIG-21s for months to review how to use them better, but the NVAF never fully recovered.

    higurashihougi wrote:And what are his reasons and proofs ?
    You really think the US is going to reveal the details of Tolkachev's work ? Even now ? But for general information, Tolkachev revealed/confirmed that the core issue was technology. The Soviets simply did not have air defense radars sophisticated enough to consistently detect and track low altitude aircrafts, especially high speed ones like the F-111 and cruise missiles.

    He took pictures of...

    - Circuit boards,
    - Finished components,
    - User manuals from manufacturer to finalized instructions for field use,
    - Documentations on the modifications to the MIG-25 with its new look down shoot down radar,
    - Technical and operational plans for the new Soviet AWACS,
    - Concept for a new Soviet bomber,

    And that is just a short list.

    Significant to people on the front lines -- like I was -- were the finalized user manuals. If you know how the enemy is going to use a tool, you will know its strengths and weaknesses. You can come up with ways to bypass its strengths and exploit its weaknesses. Once in a while, the enemy can have someone with high enough intelligence and skills to use a tool in creative ways but those people are rare and under the Soviet system, independent and creative thinking are discouraged. It was the task of the USAF's R/D branch, Systems Command, to analyze what Tolkachev gave, and he never sold, and it was up to individual USAF combatant commands throughout Western Europe to plan how to bypass Soviet strengths and exploit weaknesses. All wings then came together to analyze who came up with what and how to coordinate each other's plans.

    Like I said, Tolkachev never sold what he produced. The US did gave financial estimates for what he produced and put the money into a trust for the day when we would extract Tolkachev and his family out of the Soviet Union. Unfortunately, that never happened. But Tolkachev's motivations never involved selling what he got.

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    Re: Western propaganda

    Post  havok on Thu Nov 17, 2016 1:12 am

    miketheterrible wrote:His evidence is trying to attack others militaries or training or whatever with a single sentence such as:

    From one professional to another, am sorry to hear that your military has deteriorated to that condition.

    Cant get more pathetic than that.
    Like the man's comment about the movie Independence Day was really professional.

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    Re: Western propaganda

    Post  Militarov on Thu Nov 17, 2016 1:31 am

    havok wrote:
    miketheterrible wrote:His evidence is trying to attack others militaries or training or whatever with a single sentence such as:

    From one professional to another, am sorry to hear that your military has deteriorated to that condition.

    Cant get more pathetic than that.
    Like the man's comment about the movie Independence Day was really professional.

    Its called being sarcastic.

    Also do i look to you like i care being "professional" here? No, not really, i am professional when i need to be professional and i am highly selective with whom i am professional.

    Move along.

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    Re: Western propaganda

    Post  havok on Thu Nov 17, 2016 2:04 am

    Militarov wrote:Its called being sarcastic.

    Also do i look to you like i care being "professional" here? No, not really, i am professional when i need to be professional and i am highly selective with whom i am professional.

    Move along.
    Likewise...Move along.

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    Re: Western propaganda

    Post  KiloGolf on Thu Nov 17, 2016 2:07 am

    havok wrote:As for Operation Bolo, it proved what combat pilots always knew -- it is the man that counts.

    Too bad the top brass were too late to embrace such logic. And in case of Vietnam, the US policy of not striking the North's airbases and other facilities, routinely, did not win them that war. Afaik northern airbases were never touched in that war. The US leadership had no idea how to run and win that conflict, at all.

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    Re: Western propaganda

    Post  havok on Thu Nov 17, 2016 3:30 am

    KiloGolf wrote:
    havok wrote:As for Operation Bolo, it proved what combat pilots always knew -- it is the man that counts.

    Too bad the top brass were too late to embrace such logic. And in case of Vietnam, the US policy of not striking the North's airbases and other facilities, routinely, did not win them that war. Afaik northern airbases were never touched in that war. The US leadership had no idea how to run and win that conflict, at all.
    This is where you are wrong.

    In criticizing the US regarding the Vietnam War, it is always convenient and deliberately inflammatory to go after the military leadership, after all, it is a war. But the reality is that the Vietnam War was micromanaged by the civilian leadership. That was not only a fact but also the greater truth. It is surprising that you do not know it.

    A war has two EQUALLY important components:

    - The political goals (long term).
    - The military objectives (short term).

    Together, the political goals dictate military objectives and in return, successful military objectives can be powerful incentives for the other side to concede the war.

    The long term goal is to get Country X to surrender, therefore, the short term military objectives must be to take that hill, blockade that harbor, mine that valley, etc...etc...

    In the Vietnam War, there were divergent political goals between the two sides and each have its own sponsor. The North wanted unification. The South wanted partition. Eventually, one side must lose. North Vietnam, China, and the Soviet Union do not answer to their citizens. South Vietnam and the US had to answer to theirs. As such, material support for South Vietnam depends on the generosity of the US citizenry. You are fighting for half the country while the other side is fighting the whole. That means the only way a partition could happen is if the other side loses material support, and that loss of support is unlikely with China and the Soviet Union.

    Militarily speaking, the US controlled the Vietnamese airspace and the Vietnamese seaspace. Battle for the southern half was effective enough that North Vietnam had to violate the borders of Laos and Cambodia to create the Ho Chi Minh Trail to support the Viet Cong guerrilla force. If the political goal for South Vietnam and the US was for unification, the NVA by itself would have been defeated. This scenario is more plausible than the one where China would actually commit Chinese troops to front line combat as US troops were.

    The point here is that the US military met all of its military objectives as defined by the political goal, which was flawed to start. The blame for the loss of South Vietnam rests on the civilian US leadership, not the military.

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    Re: Western propaganda

    Post  KiloGolf on Thu Nov 17, 2016 3:39 am

    havok wrote:
    KiloGolf wrote:
    havok wrote:As for Operation Bolo, it proved what combat pilots always knew -- it is the man that counts.

    Too bad the top brass were too late to embrace such logic. And in case of Vietnam, the US policy of not striking the North's airbases and other facilities, routinely, did not win them that war. Afaik northern airbases were never touched in that war. The US leadership had no idea how to run and win that conflict, at all.
    This is where you are wrong.

    In criticizing the US regarding the Vietnam War, it is always convenient and deliberately inflammatory to go after the military leadership, after all, it is a war. But the reality is that the Vietnam War was micromanaged by the civilian leadership. That was not only a fact but also the greater truth. It is surprising that you do not know it.

    A war has two EQUALLY important components:

    - The political goals (long term).
    - The military objectives (short term).

    Together, the political goals dictate military objectives and in return, successful military objectives can be powerful incentives for the other side to concede the war.

    The long term goal is to get Country X to surrender, therefore, the short term military objectives must be to take that hill, blockade that harbor, mine that valley, etc...etc...

    In the Vietnam War, there were divergent political goals between the two sides and each have its own sponsor. The North wanted unification. The South wanted partition. Eventually, one side must lose. North Vietnam, China, and the Soviet Union do not answer to their citizens. South Vietnam and the US had to answer to theirs. As such, material support for South Vietnam depends on the generosity of the US citizenry. You are fighting for half the country while the other side is fighting the whole. That means the only way a partition could happen is if the other side loses material support, and that loss of support is unlikely with China and the Soviet Union.

    Militarily speaking, the US controlled the Vietnamese airspace and the Vietnamese seaspace. Battle for the southern half was effective enough that North Vietnam had to violate the borders of Laos and Cambodia to create the Ho Chi Minh Trail to support the Viet Cong guerrilla force. If the political goal for South Vietnam and the US was for unification, the NVA by itself would have been defeated. This scenario is more plausible than the one where China would actually commit Chinese troops to front line combat as US troops were.

    The point here is that the US military met all of its military objectives as defined by the political goal, which was flawed to start. The blame for the loss of South Vietnam rests on the civilian US leadership, not the military.

    I said US leadership, meaning the politicians.
    The top brass failed in pointing out the failed doctrine which they were instructed to implement. I don't remember any of them coming out and speaking against their retarded orders and objectives that lead to an endless war they were bound to loose. As they did, they lost that war.

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    Re: Western propaganda

    Post  havok on Thu Nov 17, 2016 3:45 am

    KiloGolf wrote:I said US leadership, meaning the politicians.
    The top brass failed in pointing out the failed doctrine which they were instructed to implement. I don't remember any of them coming out and speaking against their retarded orders and objectives that lead to an endless war they were bound to loose. As they did, they lost that war.
    The military failed to point out ? Were YOU in those meetings ?

    Even in your Russia, the military is supposed to obey. Any disagreements, you keep them in-house. But ultimately, you have to obey and go out and try to accomplish your objectives.

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    Re: Western propaganda

    Post  higurashihougi on Thu Nov 17, 2016 3:52 am

    havok wrote:So here is a lesson to you and anyone in this forum who is willing to learn, even if the lesson came from an American: In combat, you win not by fighting under your opponent's rules, but by forcing him to fight under yours, and cheating is allowed. (...)

    You are the one who completely missed the point.

    It's not like we condemn you about cheating or ambushing or what so your lengthy explanation is total unneccessary and meaningless.

    Okay, you show your moment of brilliance at Operation Bolo but at the end of the war which air forces suffered more, and after all who had bigger flying fleet ?

    And is that enough to prove my point about the VNAF, which is although it was also trained by the USSR but it did not perform poorly like some other countries ?

    havok wrote:You really think the US is going to reveal the details of Tolkachev's work ? Even now ?

    In short you will provide no proof for your arguments ?

    havok wrote:The Soviets simply did not have air defense radars sophisticated enough to consistently detect and track low altitude aircrafts, especially high speed ones like the F-111 and cruise missiles.

    Reason and proof ? Why not ?

    havok wrote:He took pictures of...

    - Circuit boards,
    - Finished components,
    - User manuals from manufacturer to finalized instructions for field use,
    - Documentations on the modifications to the MIG-25 with its new look down shoot down radar,
    - Technical and operational plans for the new Soviet AWACS,
    - Concept for a new Soviet bomber,

    And why do these tell that the USSR can't shot down F-111 but not the opposite ?

    havok wrote:Like I said, Tolkachev never sold what he produced. The US did gave financial estimates for what he produced and put the money into a trust for the day when we would extract Tolkachev and his family out of the Soviet Union. Unfortunately, that never happened. But Tolkachev's motivations never involved selling what he got.

    Like I care.


    Last edited by higurashihougi on Thu Nov 17, 2016 3:56 am; edited 1 time in total

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    Re: Western propaganda

    Post  KiloGolf on Thu Nov 17, 2016 3:52 am

    havok wrote:
    KiloGolf wrote:I said US leadership, meaning the politicians.
    The top brass failed in pointing out the failed doctrine which they were instructed to implement. I don't remember any of them coming out and speaking against their retarded orders and objectives that lead to an endless war they were bound to loose. As they did, they lost that war.
    The military failed to point out ? Were YOU in those meetings ?

    Even in your Russia, the military is supposed to obey. Any disagreements, you keep them in-house. But ultimately, you have to obey and go out and try to accomplish your objectives.

    No, not really. One could resign and save some lives. Create media fuss. Congress could've started investigations and hearing early on. None of that happened in the mid or late 60s. It was either hardline Cold War retardation (and not fighting the enemy in the North) or hippies on the streets dodging the draft with lefty media covering irrelevant BS. The top brass were comfortably living the life in CONUS or Hawai while young GIs were getting massacred in South East Asia.

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    Re: Western propaganda

    Post  havok on Thu Nov 17, 2016 4:50 am

    higurashihougi wrote:You are the one who completely missed the point.

    It's not like we condemn you about cheating or ambushing or what so your lengthy explanation is total unneccessary and meaningless.
    My lengthy reply was for your education.

    This is a military oriented forum, of which I find most members have never served in whatever military of their countries, and of which their ignorance of military affairs is revealing.

    higurashihougi wrote:Okay, you show your moment of brilliance at Operation Bolo but at the end of the war which air forces suffered more, and after all who had bigger flying fleet ?
    By focusing on sheer number, it is YOU who missed the point.

    Yes, the US lost more aircrafts, fixed and rotary wings, than the NVAF, but in terms of percentage of loss, the NVAF had the greater loss, especially with their prized MIG-21 fleet.

    Most people -- like you -- do not know of events like Operation Bolo where such events cuts straight to the heart of a debate. Take the MIG-21, for example, most people used this aircraft to show superiority of one hardware over another, as if they know what they are talking about. The -21 is lighter, smaller, more maneuverable, and so on. Speaking of propaganda, they got so caught up in the propaganda over the jet that they never bothered to research if there are any instances where the -21 could be defeated.

    higurashihougi wrote:And is that enough to prove my point about the VNAF, which is although it was also trained by the USSR but it did not perform poorly like some other countries ?
    But the NVAF did performed poorly.

    higurashihougi wrote:In short you will provide no proof for your arguments ?

    Reason and proof ? Why not ?

    And why do these tell that the USSR can't shot down F-111 but not the opposite ?
    If you are looking for definitive proof that Tolkachev had documents that literally said "The Soviets cannot detect the F-111 ", your immaturity at understanding this subject is evident.

    If the user manual says something like "The radar cannot be used in rain" then obviously you can counter this radar by flying in the rain. There is no need to be that specific. That is the point of intelligence gathering. Intelligence from human to hardware to signals. You put all these information together and compare against what you can and cannot do.

    higurashihougi wrote:Like I care.
    You should care. You are participating in a discussion that touches many related subjects, ranging from technical to historical. Further, I doubt that you have any military experience. So you should care for your own intellectual development.

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    Re: Western propaganda

    Post  havok on Thu Nov 17, 2016 4:54 am

    KiloGolf wrote:No, not really. One could resign and save some lives. Create media fuss. Congress could've started investigations and hearing early on. None of that happened in the mid or late 60s. It was either hardline Cold War retardation (and not fighting the enemy in the North) or hippies on the streets dodging the draft with lefty media covering irrelevant BS. The top brass were comfortably living the life in CONUS or Hawai while young GIs were getting massacred in South East Asia.
    Yeah...As if that is unique to the Americans. I wonder how many Soviet generals were living comfortably in their vacation dachas while young Soviet troops were dying in Afghanistan.

    It is clear that you are more interested in casting as negative a light, no matter how feebly, on the US in Viet Nam to the point of absurdity. No need to continue this subject with you.

    higurashihougi
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    Re: Western propaganda

    Post  higurashihougi on Thu Nov 17, 2016 5:02 am

    North Vietnam, China, and the Soviet Union do not answer to their citizens. South Vietnam and the US had to answer to theirs.

    What thẻ f*** is this shit ?

    So you mean Vietnamese citizen was forced to fight for their own country against US invader and the Saigon puppet, and Vietnam government did not respect their citizen like Saigon puppet government ?

    The North wanted unification. The South wanted partition.

    Vietnam wanted independence, unification, and wanted the US and her Ducangers to get the f*** out of Vietnam. The Saigon puppet government wanted to be the dog for Washington DC forever, because it was a dog created by the White House.

    This is a patriotic war not a civil war.

    Militarily speaking, the US controlled the Vietnamese airspace and the Vietnamese seaspace. Battle for the southern half was effective enough that North Vietnam had to violate the borders of Laos and Cambodia to create the Ho Chi Minh Trail to support the Viet Cong guerrilla force.

    You possesed a huge flying and floating fleet and you are boasting about bullying somebody who had nearly nothing.

    It is you who say cheating is OK in war so don't blame the Vietnamese for using whatever they had to support their comrades.

    If the political goal for South Vietnam and the US was for unification, the NVA by itself would have been defeated.

    Oh so the PAVN was spared by the mercy of Divine Uncle Sam, not because they managed to put up a good fight and forced the so-called mightly US to retreat ?

    And by the way you finally admit that the US wanted to DIVIDE Vietnam and PREVENT ITS UNIFICATION, right ?

    As such, material support for South Vietnam depends on the generosity of the US citizenry.

    What a docile puppet government.

    The point here is that the US military met all of its military objectives as defined by the political goal, which was flawed to start.

    Unluckly a number of Ducanger failed to understand so.

    The blame for the loss of South Vietnam rests on the civilian US leadership, not the military.

    Probably also the reason why cancers like F-12/SR-71, M16, F-22, F-35, B-2,... still persists in the US Army. And also why the US continued to use carpet bombing at Vietnam.

    Yeah...As if that is unique to the Americans. I wonder how many Soviet generals were living comfortably in their vacation dachas while young Soviet troops were dying in Afghanistan.

    At least the USSR leaders were not stupid enough to let their soldier being armed with M16 or AR-15.


    Last edited by higurashihougi on Thu Nov 17, 2016 5:40 am; edited 2 times in total

    higurashihougi
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    Re: Western propaganda

    Post  higurashihougi on Thu Nov 17, 2016 5:17 am

    My lengthy reply was for your education.

    Thanks but no need.

    Yes, the US lost more aircrafts, fixed and rotary wings, than the NVAF, but in terms of percentage of loss, the NVAF had the greater loss, especially with their prized MIG-21 fleet.

    And so ? The US still had to retreat with the a** being kicked so bad, by someone who were having a much smaller air force.

    Not something to be proud about.

    The -21 is lighter, smaller, more maneuverable, and so on. Speaking of propaganda, they got so caught up in the propaganda over the jet that they never bothered to research if there are any instances where the -21 could be defeated.

    Yes MiG-21 can be defeated in certain circumstances, everybody knows that no aircraft is 100% invincible no matter how strong they are so STFU with your unneccessary "education". And so ?

    But the NVAF did performed poorly.

    If you insist to believe so...

    If the user manual says something like "The radar cannot be used in rain" then obviously you can counter this radar by flying in the rain.

    You are not the manual, and we have no reason to automatically believe whatever you say. If you want our belief, plz, proofs and reasons.

    You should care. You are participating in a discussion that touches many related subjects, ranging from technical to historical.

    I don't care about why Tolkachev cooperated with the US. I only care about proof and reason why the USSR cannot shoot down F-111.

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    Re: Western propaganda

    Post  havok on Thu Nov 17, 2016 5:52 am

    higurashihougi wrote:Thanks but no need.
    Judging from the last two posts, you need the education, whether you chose to accept it or not. It looks like am debating a teenager.

    Looky here, kid...

    Just because you are on this forum as a Viet, that does not mean you have a monopoly on everything regarding Viet Nam. Unfortunately for you, I am also a Viet. I am a survivor of the 1968 Tet Offensive. I have studied the Vietnam War more than you have, which am willing to guess that you pick and choose what you want to read. That is not a good education, whether it is formal or informal. I can see that you do not have good critical thinking skills and that you lack basic science education. Any comment on military issues beyond the usual language used in propaganda style will be lost on you.

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    Re: Western propaganda

    Post  GarryB on Thu Nov 17, 2016 9:19 am

    Too bad the top brass were too late to embrace such logic. And in case of Vietnam, the US policy of not striking the North's airbases and other facilities, routinely, did not win them that war. Afaik northern airbases were never touched in that war. The US leadership had no idea how to run and win that conflict, at all.

    Yeah... obviously Americas mistake was they did not murder enough Vietnamese people at the time.

    Really funny that some people talk about what they should have done to win because it usually would have meant a longer and more bloody war... the idea that they had no business there in the first place never crosses their small minds...

    In criticizing the US regarding the Vietnam War, it is always convenient and deliberately inflammatory to go after the military leadership, after all, it is a war. But the reality is that the Vietnam War was micromanaged by the civilian leadership. That was not only a fact but also the greater truth. It is surprising that you do not know it.

    Hahahahaha... top marks... it was Hitlers fault... brilliant.

    This is a military oriented forum, of which I find most members have never served in whatever military of their countries, and of which their ignorance of military affairs is revealing.

    Well perhaps you could do a bit more background reading first... at least then you would know that Kilo and Mil are not Russian and that your attempts to educate higurashihougi regarding his own country are a little amusing... if condescending.

    Most people -- like you -- do not know of events like Operation Bolo where such events cuts straight to the heart of a debate.

    No, he is blinded by the damage your country did to the environment in his country with bio agents like Agent Orange and all the other colour agents used in Vietnam that no one talks about now except to get US soldiers healthcare support.

    He realises you tried really hard to murder his people... please accept he probably does not appreciate the finer points of when you were more successful than at other times.

    But the NVAF did performed poorly.

    Yeah, they gave up immediately... oops, no, they didn't... they took on two superpowers... france and then the merickans... three if you count the Chinese...

    Just because you are on this forum as a Viet, that does not mean you have a monopoly on everything regarding Viet Nam. Unfortunately for you, I am also a Viet. I am a survivor of the 1968 Tet Offensive.

    How delicious... just because you live in the remains of a country America once noticed but now remember as just being a name of a bad war they lost does not mean you understand the country you live in boy. You need to join the US military and threaten to detonate nuclear weapons in the capital city of the Soviet Union and then read all the western propaganda about how they deserve it before you are properly educated enough to be on the internet...

    I have studied the Vietnam War more than you have, which am willing to guess that you pick and choose what you want to read. That is not a good education, whether it is formal or informal. I can see that you do not have good critical thinking skills and that you lack basic science education. Any comment on military issues beyond the usual language used in propaganda style will be lost on you.

    There are at least two sides to every story... the western version of the Vietnam conflict is fairly well known and easy to come by... and not very convincing.

    The fact that he came to this forum suggests he wants an alternative view, or maybe he wants to talk about Russian and Soviet military equipment.

    Either way, I doubt you have much unbiased information to share.

    In the 60s and 70s it was justified to save Asia from communism... ironically if you had not supported South Vietnam there would have been no need for assistance from China and the Soviets and Vietnam would likely have not become so Communist driven.

    The same mistake in Cuba... the locals didn't want communism but given the choice of communism or imperialism they chose the lessor of two evils.

    What is the message now? Bomb China? Make Nike shoes? Buy Blue jeans and crap light trucks?


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    “The West won the world not by the superiority of its ideas or values or religion […] but rather by its superiority in applying organized violence. Westerners often forget this fact; non-Westerners never do.”

    ― Samuel P. Huntington, The Clash of Civilizations and the Remaking of World Order

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    Re: Western propaganda

    Post  havok on Thu Nov 17, 2016 10:12 am

    GarryB wrote:The same mistake in Cuba... the locals didn't want communism but given the choice of communism or imperialism they chose the lessor of two evils.
    Really ? How many Americans float to Cuba to live in the "Worker's Paradise" as so often spouted by Soviet propaganda ?

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