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    BTRfan
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    Re: Western propaganda

    Post  BTRfan on Thu Apr 25, 2013 5:11 pm

    GarryB wrote:

    And the obvious problem there is that if they did then the Soviets and the western allies would likely have started using such weapons on Berlin and other German cities... that is a door the Germans never opened for a reason.



    Nobody except Germany had nerve agents at the time. Germany was the only nation to develop nerve agents before/during WW2. Although Germany didn't know that at the time.

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    Re: Western propaganda

    Post  BTRfan on Thu Apr 25, 2013 5:13 pm

    TR1 wrote:"
    There is certainly no denying that many prisoners were horribly mistreated, neglected, abused, worked to death, starved to death, on both sides. Germans had minimal chance of coming back alive from the Soviet Union just as Soviets had minimal chance coming back alive from Germany."

    I don't want to sound upset or anything, but I find that to be a characterization inaccurate in the extreme. One that is also disturbingly pervasive in Western "perception" of the war. I don't want to lump you among ignoramuses but, let us look at statistics.

    The USSR took 2,389,600 German Prisoners during the war. Of these, 450,600 died.
    The Axis took 5.7 million Soviet POWs. Of these, 3.3 million died, or OVER 57%.

    Further, we need to consider that often when German POWs perished, it was due to their already horribly sick status (for example, the POWs after Stalingrad almost all died because they were beyond recovery in the Winter conditions), or because there were not enough supplies to feed them. This contrasts with the treatment that Soviet POWs got, especially in first years of the war (before they were badly needed for Slave labor), when many were shot (outright or due to the Comissar Order) outright. The camps that the Soviet POWs were placed at were pretty much as bad as anything out of the Holocaust, literally fenced encirclements, left to die with no attempt at even basic care whatsoever.

    http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/59/Bundesarchiv_Bild_192-208%2C_KZ_Mauthausen%2C_Sowjetische_Kriegsgefangene.jpg

    This is what the Germans did to Soviet POWs.
    It's too bad there wasn't more serious investigation of any German personnel who had any connection with Prison guarding or the logistical creation of the prisons. Death is as far as I'm concerned the only thing they deserve.
    For what they did in World War 2 the German nation got off easy.




    Almost 60% of the Italians who were captured by the Soviets wound up dead.



    At its height, the ARMIR was about 235,000 strong, and operated between December 1942 and February 1943 in support of the German forces engaged in and around Stalingrad. In this period the total figure of missing Italian soldiers amounted to 84,830 (Italian Ministry of Defence, 1977a 1977b). According to the Soviet archives, 54,400 Italian prisoners of war reached the Soviet prisoner camps alive; 44,315 prisoners died in captivity inside the camps, most of them in the winter of 1943.


    According to the Soviet archives, 54,400 Italian prisoners of war reached the Soviet prisoner camps alive; 44,315 prisoners died in captivity inside the camps, most of them in the winter of 1943.

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    Re: Western propaganda

    Post  BTRfan on Thu Apr 25, 2013 5:16 pm

    TR1 wrote:"


    Further, we need to consider that often when German POWs perished, it was due to their already horribly sick status (for example, the POWs after Stalingrad almost all died because they were beyond recovery in the Winter conditions), or because there were not enough supplies to feed them. This contrasts with the treatment that Soviet POWs got, especially in first years of the war (before they were badly needed for Slave labor), when many were shot (outright or due to the Comissar Order) outright. The camps that the Soviet POWs were placed at were pretty much as bad as anything out of the Holocaust, literally fenced encirclements, left to die with no attempt at even basic care whatsoever.




    You do know the Americans killed several million German POWs by putting them in fenced fields with no shelter, no food, no water, and they posted guards who shot at women trying to throw food over the fences to the men.


    Rheinwiesenlager



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    Re: Western propaganda

    Post  BTRfan on Thu Apr 25, 2013 5:19 pm

    GarryB wrote:
    The idea of Soviet aerial supply of a pocket containing perhaps 400,000 men to 600,000 men [or however many the Kursk salient contained in late March and early April] in the immediate aftermath of 3rd Kharkov, is almost laughable.

    It is rather unlikely the Germans could close the pincers fast enough to capture 400,000 men, and even if they did, Kursk is a fairly short range trip from a huge number of Soviet controlled air strips. Add to that the fact that the Red Air Force was a completely different force in 43 than 41, and I think you are misguided with your sense of humour. Equally in 1943 we are talking about battle hardened well equipped and properly led Soviet troops.

    The Soviets lacked sufficient aerial transport/cargo planes and they had no real experience with an air-lift to deliver large amounts of supplies.

    Actually they still had quite a lot of transport aircraft and bombers that would be obsolete as bombers but useful for delivering material at night. Equally I rather doubt the Germans would have a sufficient force to ensure the ring was tight... remember the Germans are committing all its forces into an attack to encircle a small portion of the Soviet troops it thinks is there and it knows nothing of the reserve forces waiting to go onto the offensive after the German attack is blunted. In the event many of these forces had to be committed to the battle because they had mistaken the direction of the main attack and had the southern path too weakly defended and had to send reserves to support the southern defences. Their tactics of using the new tanks with their heavy armour up front with their weaker tanks behind doesn't work without the heavy front tanks so their tank forces probably would have been stopped just as quick even though the defences would have been much weaker too.

    The lion's share of Germany's cargo craft were unable to keep the 6th Army supplied during the encirclement at Stalingrad.

    German airfields were being captured and the Red Air Force was finding its feet and the ring included large numbers of anti aircraft guns for the dual use of stopping tanks and planes.

    Also that was in winter when the weather was terrible and many days no planes could fly anyway.

    They could have ignored Kursk and gone on the offensive around Rostov, or they could have waited for the Soviets to attack, or they could have attacked immediately after Kharkov...

    They needed a rest, going for Rostov would have left a large Soviet force on their flank... the whole purpose of Citadel was to straighten the line as well as capture a large Soviet force and annihilate it. Without super tanks the latter was never going to happen, and even with them we saw it didn't happen either.

    Another option would have been to hold in the south and center, shift forces to the north, and finish Leningrad, which would free up soldiers for deployment elsewhere.




    Well they could have pulled back to eliminate Kursk salient by simply falling back and shortening their lines, so there would no longer be a salient jutting into their lines because their lines would have fallen back.

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    Re: Western propaganda

    Post  BTRfan on Thu Apr 25, 2013 6:31 pm

    GarryB wrote:

    Sorry, I don't think you understand. Some people do want to live at any cost and will do some outrageous things to do so, and some really don't like their current government and would join up with a foreign power to change that, but after seeing what the Nazis had done to their country... and by 1943 most front line soldiers had seen places the Germans had occupied for a while, I really don't think they would volunteer in the traditional sense... much the same as the penal battalions in the Soviet forces didn't willingly volunteer. Given a choice of charging the enemy or being shot in the back of the head... it is more of a gamble than a choice.





    I'm not sure who would invade that would be willing to do such a thing, but if America/NATO wound up in a war with say Russia, Serbia, China, and others, and Russian and Serb forces arrived in the USA and announced they were going to help end imperialism, third world military adventures, oppressive bureaucracy, and activist judges interpreting away the American Constitution and restore the Constitution to a place of respect, as long as they seemed sincere and serious, I'd join some auxiliary security force to help them if they established such a force.

    In the eyes of most Americans [and many people anywhere] that would make me a traitor, but I don't believe in the present American system or the way America operates. To serve the present America would mean I'd have to betray my own convictions. If a man stays true to his own convictions then he cannot be a traitor.

    Folks elsewhere claimed that the Croats who fought for Pavelic and the Germans were traitors to Yugoslavia, to which I responded that it is not possible to betray an artificially created nation that nobody wanted to belong to and that if they fought for what they believed in, they were honoring their principles. I may not agree with all of their actions as soldiers, they did some horrible things, but they did not betray Yugoslavia because none of them ever believed in Yugsoslavia.

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    Re: Western propaganda

    Post  BTRfan on Thu Apr 25, 2013 7:10 pm

    About the main topic of this thread, propaganda...

    There is a relatively new US Navy commercial which ends with "The US Navy, a Global Force For Good!"

    When my father and I saw it we were both upset. He exclaimed, "it is not supposed to be a global anything! it is supposed to be for America!" and I said, "yes it is not meant to be a global force for good but a national force for defense!"

    I then added, "also, if somebody has to broadcast, 'we are a force for good' they are probably a force for evil."

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    Re: Western propaganda

    Post  Regular on Thu Apr 25, 2013 7:46 pm

    Well I have no sympathy to America as they are even bigger liars than Russians. And that should say something. And no less chauvinists. Russians have saying NET ANALOGOV VMIRE, Americans have identical BEST IN THE WORLD, MADE IN AMERICA. For the rest of the world lets hope they won't be allies Very Happy I am only half joking, but sometimes propaganda from west and east just makes me sick.

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    Re: Western propaganda

    Post  BTRfan on Thu Apr 25, 2013 8:45 pm

    Regular wrote:Well I have no sympathy to America as they are even bigger liars than Russians. And that should say something. And no less chauvinists. Russians have saying NET ANALOGOV VMIRE, Americans have identical BEST IN THE WORLD, MADE IN AMERICA. For the rest of the world lets hope they won't be allies Very Happy I am only half joking, but sometimes propaganda from west and east just makes me sick.


    Perhaps we should change that to "even bigger liars than the Soviets."


    I have much respect and admiration for Russia and the Russian people, but for the Soviet Union and the Soviet system, no.


    I regard the Soviet system as something foreign and hostile to Russia and Russian culture, imposed by an alien minority who saw the Russian people as pawns to be moved around on a board, resources to be used to build canals and dams.


    I was on another forum recently challenging a Bolshevik who insisted that Russia had "no industry" prior to the Bolshevik Revolution and that the communists built it up. Since I have pictures, original documents from 1910-1930, from Russia, the USA, UK, the overall theme is clear. There were no less than 1.5 million factory workers in Russia in the opening years of the 1900s, with almost 40,000 km of railroad tracks laid.


    Russia was progressing reasonably well, perhaps not as fast as some would have liked, but it was progressing, prior to the Bolsheviks.


    There were only 5,000 police in all of Russia in the closing decade of the 1800s and the opening decade of the 1900s. Can anybody imagine that? There are 35,000 police just in New York City today in the USA!

    Most of the revolutionaries of 1905 were spared, they were shown mercy, they were sent to Siberia for a few years, and most of them came back to take part in killing the Tsar later. Can anybody imagine Stalin allowing people who had actively organized and led a revolution against him, to spend a few years in Siberia and then merge back into society?

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    Re: Western propaganda

    Post  Regular on Thu Apr 25, 2013 10:23 pm

    BTRfan wrote:
    Regular wrote:Well I have no sympathy to America as they are even bigger liars than Russians. And that should say something. And no less chauvinists. Russians have saying NET ANALOGOV VMIRE, Americans have identical BEST IN THE WORLD, MADE IN AMERICA. For the rest of the world lets hope they won't be allies Very Happy I am only half joking, but sometimes propaganda from west and east just makes me sick.


    Perhaps we should change that to "even bigger liars than the Soviets."


    I have much respect and admiration for Russia and the Russian people, but for the Soviet Union and the Soviet system, no.


    I regard the Soviet system as something foreign and hostile to Russia and Russian culture, imposed by an alien minority who saw the Russian people as pawns to be moved around on a board, resources to be used to build canals and dams.


    I was on another forum recently challenging a Bolshevik who insisted that Russia had "no industry" prior to the Bolshevik Revolution and that the communists built it up. Since I have pictures, original documents from 1910-1930, from Russia, the USA, UK, the overall theme is clear. There were no less than 1.5 million factory workers in Russia in the opening years of the 1900s, with almost 40,000 km of railroad tracks laid.


    Russia was progressing reasonably well, perhaps not as fast as some would have liked, but it was progressing, prior to the Bolsheviks.


    There were only 5,000 police in all of Russia in the closing decade of the 1800s and the opening decade of the 1900s. Can anybody imagine that? There are 35,000 police just in New York City today in the USA!

    Most of the revolutionaries of 1905 were spared, they were shown mercy, they were sent to Siberia for a few years, and most of them came back to take part in killing the Tsar later. Can anybody imagine Stalin allowing people who had actively organized and led a revolution against him, to spend a few years in Siberia and then merge back into society?

    Very good post. I agree. respekt

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    Re: Western propaganda

    Post  TR1 on Thu Apr 25, 2013 11:54 pm

    BTRfan wrote:
    TR1 wrote:"


    Further, we need to consider that often when German POWs perished, it was due to their already horribly sick status (for example, the POWs after Stalingrad almost all died because they were beyond recovery in the Winter conditions), or because there were not enough supplies to feed them. This contrasts with the treatment that Soviet POWs got, especially in first years of the war (before they were badly needed for Slave labor), when many were shot (outright or due to the Comissar Order) outright. The camps that the Soviet POWs were placed at were pretty much as bad as anything out of the Holocaust, literally fenced encirclements, left to die with no attempt at even basic care whatsoever.




    You do know the Americans killed several million German POWs by putting them in fenced fields with no shelter, no food, no water, and they posted guards who shot at women trying to throw food over the fences to the men.



    Rheinwiesenlager



    Please show me a a reliable source that millions dies.

    No offense, but bollocks.

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    Re: Western propaganda

    Post  TR1 on Thu Apr 25, 2013 11:57 pm

    BTRfan wrote:
    TR1 wrote:"
    There is certainly no denying that many prisoners were horribly mistreated, neglected, abused, worked to death, starved to death, on both sides. Germans had minimal chance of coming back alive from the Soviet Union just as Soviets had minimal chance coming back alive from Germany."

    I don't want to sound upset or anything, but I find that to be a characterization inaccurate in the extreme. One that is also disturbingly pervasive in Western "perception" of the war. I don't want to lump you among ignoramuses but, let us look at statistics.

    The USSR took 2,389,600 German Prisoners during the war. Of these, 450,600 died.
    The Axis took 5.7 million Soviet POWs. Of these, 3.3 million died, or OVER 57%.

    Further, we need to consider that often when German POWs perished, it was due to their already horribly sick status (for example, the POWs after Stalingrad almost all died because they were beyond recovery in the Winter conditions), or because there were not enough supplies to feed them. This contrasts with the treatment that Soviet POWs got, especially in first years of the war (before they were badly needed for Slave labor), when many were shot (outright or due to the Comissar Order) outright. The camps that the Soviet POWs were placed at were pretty much as bad as anything out of the Holocaust, literally fenced encirclements, left to die with no attempt at even basic care whatsoever.

    http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/59/Bundesarchiv_Bild_192-208%2C_KZ_Mauthausen%2C_Sowjetische_Kriegsgefangene.jpg

    This is what the Germans did to Soviet POWs.
    It's too bad there wasn't more serious investigation of any German personnel who had any connection with Prison guarding or the logistical creation of the prisons. Death is as far as I'm concerned the only thing they deserve.
    For what they did in World War 2 the German nation got off easy.




    Almost 60% of the Italians who were captured by the Soviets wound up dead.



    At its height, the ARMIR was about 235,000 strong, and operated between December 1942 and February 1943 in support of the German forces engaged in and around Stalingrad. In this period the total figure of missing Italian soldiers amounted to 84,830 (Italian Ministry of Defence, 1977a 1977b). According to the Soviet archives, 54,400 Italian prisoners of war reached the Soviet prisoner camps alive; 44,315 prisoners died in captivity inside the camps, most of them in the winter of 1943.


    According to the Soviet archives, 54,400 Italian prisoners of war reached the Soviet prisoner camps alive; 44,315 prisoners died in captivity inside the camps, most of them in the winter of 1943.

    Which has directly to do with the conditions the Italians were captured in. Most were nabbed during the Stalingrad defeat, and were in such poor condition (and Soviet supplies were low themselves) that they stood little chance of survival.

    Once again though, this cannot be compared to the deliberate policy of Soviet POW destruction the Germans practiced.

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    Re: Western propaganda

    Post  BTRfan on Fri Apr 26, 2013 12:13 am

    TR1 wrote:

    Please show me a a reliable source that millions dies.

    No offense, but bollocks.


    Well America maintains that despite keeping the men in an encircled field for almost a year with no medical care, little water, no latrines, no sanitation, and starvation rations, that less than 10,000 out of the several million prisoners died. We could believe the official American numbers but this would require that we abandon common-sense and suspend our abilities to use logic and reasoning.


    American officials admit the men received starvation rations, had no structures for hygiene inside the fences [no showers, no bathrooms, no medical facilities], and that they had minimal water, but then they go on to claim less than 1% actually died in American captivity... By comparison, the death rate for civilians in the USA during the same time was about 1.1% in 1945 and the death rate in the UK, due to rationing, etc, was about 1.2%, yet they would have us believe that less than 1% of these sick, starving, dehydrated prisoners, actually died.



    Canadian Historical Review [Canada] 1990 71(Sep): 408-409.

    Canadian historian James Bacque estimated the total number of deaths to approximately one million, and a mortality rate of 30%.[9]



    From wiki- sources available there-


    Official claims that the German prisoner death rate was under 1% have been disputed and the conditions in some of the camps that housed captured German soldiers support claims for a higher mortality rate.[13] For comparison the British civilian post-war mortality rate was 1.2% while in America, where there were no food shortages, the U.S. civilian mortality rate did not fall below 1% until 1948. Anglo American troops held in German POW camps had suffered a 4% mortality rate which was praised by the ICRC who credited the low figure to the German military ensuring that POWs continued to receive Red Cross food parcels despite their own food shortages in the final months of the war.[14] Censorship in the occupied areas was so tight that the New York Times complained. However, in late 1945 Le Monde published two articles about conditions in the camps. Reporting a death rate exceeding 21%, the newspaper stated; "As one speaks today of Dachau, in ten years people throughout the world will speak about camps like Saint Paul D'Eyjeaux".[15] Many of the 740,000 German prisoners that the U.S. Army handed over for forced labor in France were already very weak, many weighing barely 50 kilos.[16]



    Nevertheless despite the scholastic studies on the death rates within the Rheinwiesenlager based on the empirical evidence, there remains ongoing disputes over the conclusion that the death rate of German prisoners dying in American custody exceeded 1% of the total incarcerated.[17] The official death rate for Germans held by the American military was among the lowest experienced by surrendered combatants during and after the war.[18]

    In 2003, historian Richard Dominic Wiggers argued that the Allies violated international law regarding the feeding of enemy civilians, they both directly and indirectly caused the unnecessary suffering and death of large numbers of civilians and prisoners in occupied Germany, guided partly by a spirit of postwar vengeance when creating the circumstances that contributed to their deaths.[23] There was also strict orders to U.S. military personnel and their wives to destroy or otherwise render inedible their own leftover surplus so as to ensure it could not be eaten by German civilians.[24] The Americans also prevented locals from bringing prisoners food under threat of being shot.[25]

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    Re: Western propaganda

    Post  BTRfan on Fri Apr 26, 2013 12:26 am

    TR1 wrote:

    Which has directly to do with the conditions the Italians were captured in. Most were nabbed during the Stalingrad defeat, and were in such poor condition (and Soviet supplies were low themselves) that they stood little chance of survival.

    Once again though, this cannot be compared to the deliberate policy of Soviet POW destruction the Germans practiced.




    I can accept that as valid and logical, it doesn't make it right, it just makes it how it was.

    However, on the same token, I believe that the photographs from the camps, with bodies of skeleton thin jews piled up, is not indicative of a German plot to destroy the Jews but is simply indicative of the fact that Germany's supply network completely broke down. Their entire logistics system collapsed after years of relentless Allied bombing.

    If Germany wanted to obliterate the Jews they would have done it in 1941-1942, it would have been over and done by 1943. They wouldn't have millions in the camps, especially children too young to work, in 1945.


    Germany was unable to deliver supplies to the camps by early 1945 and that's why so many pictures are out there showing emasciated and thin bodies. Germany was about to lose a war and what supplies she had available were going to front-line combat units.


    Also, the Third Reich never had physical control over more than about 3 million Jews and there were never more than 6 million Jews in all of Europe as a whole. We are to believe that Hitler killed 6 million Jews, when he never had more than 3 million Jews in the territory of the Greater German Reich, and that somehow there were 1-2 million survivors.

    The Jews even publish their own population figures and their population in 1948 shows a 300,000 increase from their population in 1930. Their world population never fell below 15 million during WW2 and before WW2 it was about 15.6 million total.



    I don't dispute or deny that many Soviet prisoners were treated horribly, worked to death, starved, it doesn't make it right, it just makes it how it was. Germany was already having to impose rationing in France and there were problems feeding the population in Germany due to the collapse of foreign trade with the Royal Navy controlling the seas.


    As for the holocaust, I don't like comparisons being made to the holocaust because I don't believe the standard line about the holocaust. I believe that, at most, 300,000 Jews died, mostly of hunger and disease in the final 6 months of the war when the German logistics system collapsed and they were unable to send supplies to the camps because their rail-system had been wrecked.


    The Jews at Auschwitz had a swimming a pool, a hospital, a theatre for putting on plays and operas, they had their own currency for bartering/exchanging, and they even established their own brothel.

    America conducted approximately 10 aerial reconaissance missions over Auschwitz and surrounding complexes/sub-camps during the war. The professional holocaust "survivor" Elie Weisel [or weasel if you prefer] (who has never shown his tattoo and once when his arm was exposed, no tattoo was found) claimed "they were burning bodies day and night in open pits outside of the main camp in Auschwitz." Such activities would create MOUNTAINS of smoke, yet none of the Allied air recon missions show any smoke.



    We can talk about Soviet/Russian suffering, because it happened, it shouldn't have happened, but it was real, it was no hoax. But I would prefer we avoid talking about the "holocaust" or other Jewish fables because most of the so-called survivors and eye-witnesses have been discredited.


    In Anne Frank's diary she writes about using a vacuum cleaner to clean the room she was staying in… Mind you this was in the early 1940s when vacuum cleaners were so loud that you could hear it from the street if somebody in the house was running one… She would have us believe that she and her family are trying to hide, their lives are at risk, and they are going to use something as loud as a vacuum cleaner… Not to mention parts of her diary were written in ball-point ink which was not invented until after WW2.

    Another “survivor” in the USA recently admitted his book was a hoax. He claimed he met his future wife at the fence in Auschwitz and they held hands through the fence and found each other in a displaced persons camp after the war was over. He later admitted that he made the whole thing up and that neither of them had ever been in Europe, they met in New York City at a night-club.

    One by one the stories are exposed as hoaxes, the “survivor’s tales” are exposed as novels.


    My views on the holocaust would get me thrown into prison in Germany because they cannot counter anything I say because it is true. They cannot debate the truth, all they can do is imprison the person speaking the truth in hopes that by removing him from society nobody will be able to hear what he has to say. The fact that they censor people who try to speak the truth about the Holocaust, shows that they fear what is being said, because they know they cannot dispute it.

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    Re: Western propaganda

    Post  BTRfan on Fri Apr 26, 2013 12:35 am

    TR1 wrote:"

    For what they did in World War 2 the German nation got off easy.


    For what the British and French did to Germany during and after WW1, they got off easy in 1939-1941.

    Germany could have used every chemical munition at her disposal to bomb Britain into submission. They could have gone for broke at Dunkirk and crushed the British military. They could have demanded the surrender of all French colonies and the French fleet.

    Germany could have provoked the French colonies to rise up, declare independence, and form their own governments, but they didn't do that.



    Germany was incredibly generous with France given what France had done at Versailles.



    If you want to assure another war, then a brutal peace is a sure way to do it.


    Germany did not military lose in the First World War, it did not start the war, and it deserved better than Versailles.


    I blame lack of communication between key leaders and massive instigation and jockeying behind the scenes by Jews, armaments manufacturers, globalists, and freemasons, as the main cause of WW1.


    Once Russia mobilized Germany had no choice but to strike because it was literally "now or never" since a fully mobilized Russia is powerful and not to be toyed with. If the Tsar had better advisers they would have suggested that mobilization be delayed and negotiations/diplomacy continue and that talks be opened with Germany to see if it might be possible to get Germany to put more leverage on Austria-Hungary to temper their response against Serbia. There were factions in the Serbian military and government promoting assassinations but that doesn't justify what Austria-Hungary wanted to do to Serbia. Germany's blank check was essentially a mistake, but they didn't want to risk alienating their primary ally and wind up alone facing Russia and France.



    WW1 was avoidable. Versailles and the Bolshevik takeover of Russia made WW2 inevitable. There was a Bolshevik uprising in Berlin in early 1919 and again in Bavaria in April 1919. They also promoted a Bolshevik revolution in Hungary under Bela Kuhn [Bela Cohen]. In Munich they actually declared the Bavarian Soviet Republic.




    The general consensus is that if the German leadership, the German officers, and the German soldiers, knew that America was going to violate the 14 Points outlined by Woodrow Wilson they never would have demobilized and accepted the armistice.

    It was classic bait and switch. Wilson promised that there would be respect for territorial boundaries, self-determination [which implied Austrians could vote to join Germany], and that nations would not be carved up.

    The Germans were promised peace with honor via the 14 Points but they were given Versailles and humiliation.

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    Re: Western propaganda

    Post  TR1 on Fri Apr 26, 2013 12:38 am

    "However, on the same token, I believe that the photographs from the camps, with bodies of skeleton thin jews piled up, is not indicative of a German plot to destroy the Jews but is simply indicative of the fact that Germany's supply network completely broke down. Their entire logistics system collapsed after years of relentless Allied bombing.

    If Germany wanted to obliterate the Jews they would have done it in 1941-1942, it would have been over and done by 1943. They wouldn't have millions in the camps, especially children too young to work, in 1945."

    So we get to Holocaust denial.
    Really?
    The Germans DID wipe out pretty much all of Polish Jewry during Operation Reinhard in 42-43.
    Once they went into full swing, their machine was very proficient at wiping out entire peoples. Hell, camps closed because they had no more Jews to kill in the General Government.
    They tried to get Bulgaria's jews, and asked Romania if they needed help killing their Jewish populations.
    There are written orders from Heydrich and Himmler that specify the total destruction of the Jewish peoples.

    The German logistic system was damn well operational even in 1944, when in a few months after Hungary's coup, they nabbed most of Hungary's Jews and fed them right into the Holocaust machine.

    Luckily some Jews were spared in work camps due to the simple need by late war for Slave labor.

    I highly suggest less "alternative-history" and more fact.

    WHat the hell is it about this forum that attracts "alternative" (read: bullshit) historians and holocaust deniers?!?

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    Re: Western propaganda

    Post  BTRfan on Fri Apr 26, 2013 12:42 am

    The West German government set up the Maschke Commission to investigate the fate of German POW in the war, in its report of 1974 they found that about 1.2 million German military personnel reported as missing more than likely died as POW, including 1.1 million in the USSR[17] The German historian Rüdiger Overmans puts the number of German POWs dead in the Soviet captivity at 1.0 million. Based on his research Overmans believes that the deaths of 363,000 dead POW in Soviet captivity can be confirmed be the files of Deutsche Dienststelle (WASt), he maintains that it seems entirely plausible, while not provable, that 700,000 German military personnel listed with the missing actually died in Soviet custody.[3][18]

    According to the section of the German Red Cross dealing with tracing the captives, 1,300,000 German military personnel are still officially listed as missing, most are believed to have died as POW.[19][20]




    The official figures agreed upon by Soviet officials declare that approximately 14% of all German prisoners died in Soviet captivity. The German estimates are closer to 30-35% but at some point we're just arguing over numbers. It isn't better either way because 14% is unacceptable, 30-30% is certainly unacceptable. They were either neglected or actively left to rot.

    The Soviet death rate in Germany's camps, around 60%, would strongly point to either massive neglect or inability to provide basic care, or deliberate extermination.


    It isn't a game of "we suffered more than you" or "no we suffered the most!"

    War is miserable, everybody suffers, and the most the poor conscripted farmer can hope for is to survive and return to his farm [which he hopes is still there]. Virtually nobody gains in a war except those who are advancing an agenda or producing/selling weapons.

    One wrong doesn't make a right. I don't want civilization to wind up in a game of "you hit us, we hit you" or "you poked my cousin, so I'll poke your cousin."



    Last edited by BTRfan on Fri Apr 26, 2013 12:45 am; edited 1 time in total

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    Re: Western propaganda

    Post  BTRfan on Fri Apr 26, 2013 12:44 am

    TR1 wrote:
    The Germans DID wipe out pretty much all of Polish Jewry during Operation Reinhard in 42-43.




    There are today no less than 1.3 million Polish Jews in Israel, which begs a simple question, where did they come from?

    If Polish Jewry was "pretty much all wiped out" in 1942-1943, how did 1.3 million Polish Jews make it to Palestine/Israel?

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    Re: Western propaganda

    Post  TR1 on Fri Apr 26, 2013 12:51 am

    There were 3.5 Jews in Poland pre-war.
    Somewhere around 100,000 survived.....

    Regarding prisoners, the difference we once again come to, is German prisoners generally died in Soviet POW camps when their medical conditions were terrible combined with spartan camp conditions + lack of supplies to splurge on POWs. The number of Prisoners shot out of hand, was miniscule to how many the Germans shot.
    Not to mention there was absolutely NO equivalent in the USSR to the utterly bare, barbed wire fields in which hundreds of thousands Soviet POWs died, or the Holocaust camps that thousands of POWs died or were experimented on.

    I utterly reject any comparison between POW treatment on the respective sides.
    It is Nazi apologizing at its best.
    The Germans came into the East with the goal of total war and almost total annihilation of the people living there.
    If the USSR was anything like the Germans in WW2, the population in Occupied Germany would have been utterly depleted.

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    Re: Western propaganda

    Post  BTRfan on Fri Apr 26, 2013 1:38 am

    TR1 wrote:There were 3.5 Jews in Poland pre-war.
    Somewhere around 100,000 survived.....

    Regarding prisoners, the difference we once again come to, is German prisoners generally died in Soviet POW camps when their medical conditions were terrible combined with spartan camp conditions + lack of supplies to splurge on POWs. The number of Prisoners shot out of hand, was miniscule to how many the Germans shot.
    Not to mention there was absolutely NO equivalent in the USSR to the utterly bare, barbed wire fields in which hundreds of thousands Soviet POWs died, or the Holocaust camps that thousands of POWs died or were experimented on.

    I utterly reject any comparison between POW treatment on the respective sides.
    It is Nazi apologizing at its best.
    The Germans came into the East with the goal of total war and almost total annihilation of the people living there.
    If the USSR was anything like the Germans in WW2, the population in Occupied Germany would have been utterly depleted.



    Actually there were about 3 million Jews in Poland and a great many retreated East as the Red Army fell back in 1941.

    Somehow over 1.5 million Polish Jews wound up in Palestine/Israel.


    In the years following WW2, no less than 500,000, and as many 2,000,000 ethnic Germans, were killed during the mass expulsion of nearly 14-15 million ethnic Germans from East Bloc nations.

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    Re: Western propaganda

    Post  GarryB on Fri Apr 26, 2013 11:47 am

    Nobody except Germany had nerve agents at the time. Germany was the only nation to develop nerve agents before/during WW2. Although Germany didn't know that at the time.

    Nerve agents are like any chemical weapon... if you can't deliver it in high enough concentrations quickly it is never as effective and you might think.

    The problem for Germany is that while their nerve agents were potent they simply didn't have the capacity (ie air power) to deliver it in volume, while the Allies had plenty of capacity to deliver it to anywhere in Germany at any time they wanted. It might have only been mustard gas, but it would be far more lethal because they had plenty of it and the capacity to deliver it. Even the Soviets would have been able to deliver dangerous levels of biological warfare agents that would have had a crippling effect on Germany if they had chosen to use them.


    Almost 60% of the Italians who were captured by the Soviets wound up dead.

    Probably couldn't deal with the cold.

    Well they could have pulled back to eliminate Kursk salient by simply falling back and shortening their lines, so there would no longer be a salient jutting into their lines because their lines would have fallen back.

    A straightened line was the payoff, the goal was a victory in the East to turn the "tide", and regain momentum.

    In the eyes of most Americans [and many people anywhere] that would make me a traitor, but I don't believe in the present American system or the way America operates. To serve the present America would mean I'd have to betray my own convictions. If a man stays true to his own convictions then he cannot be a traitor.

    When the Germans entered the Soviet Union a lot of people saw them as liberators from the cruel stalin, but the actions of the German soldiers soon made any chance of a large scale "revolution" against the Soviets very unlikely.

    but sometimes propaganda from west and east just makes me sick.

    I tend to find the US propaganda to be worse, because the Americans have such high ideals and apply those high ideals to everyone they want to criticise, yet they never hold their own actions up to those fine ideals. If you just listen to the words the US sounds like a very good idea, but when you look at its actions, you realise the American Dream is not actually possible for those of us who are awake... cry


    I have much respect and admiration for Russia and the Russian people, but for the Soviet Union and the Soviet system, no.

    That is why I like Putin... he seems to be the most honest politician I know.

    However, on the same token, I believe that the photographs from the camps, with bodies of skeleton thin jews piled up, is not indicative of a German plot to destroy the Jews but is simply indicative of the fact that Germany's supply network completely broke down. Their entire logistics system collapsed after years of relentless Allied bombing.

    There is no question that the death camps were indeed death camps. Their purpose was the "processing of humans" for converting live people into dead people. They were not specifically designed for Jews, but it was Jewish prisoners that were sent there.

    If Germany wanted to obliterate the Jews they would have done it in 1941-1942, it would have been over and done by 1943. They wouldn't have millions in the camps, especially children too young to work, in 1945.

    In 41-42 they thought they had more time.

    Germany did not military lose in the First World War, it did not start the war, and it deserved better than Versailles.

    The main reason for the good relationship between Germany and the Soviet Union before 1933 was because in effect both countries lost WWI, and as you say, Britain and France had as much to do with the start of WWI as Germany did.

    In the years following WW2, no less than 500,000, and as many 2,000,000 ethnic Germans, were killed during the mass expulsion of nearly 14-15 million ethnic Germans from East Bloc nations.

    So.

    Germany started a war of conquest to capture and take possession of land to its east. The Soviets fought a war of defence... are you going to criticise the Soviets for continuing beyond their own borders and fighting all the way to Germany. Over a million Soviet soldiers gave their lives to defeat Germany in foreign countries... the Soviet Union had been liberated and so those Soviet soldiers weren't killed fighting for their motherland, they were fighting for other countries.

    If Germans wanted better treatment then they should have surrendered sooner. If they wanted better treatment then they should have treated the Soviet people and Soviet soldiers with respect. At the end of the day they deserved far worse than they got.

    Regarding the Holocaust, it certainly happened... I don't agree with the figures... 6 million seems like a very round number and some very dodgy maths to back it up, but at the end of the day the Germans did attempt to exterminate the Jews... and the Homosexuals, the communists, the physically and mentally disabled, the Gypsies, and lots of other groups they didn't approve of. Today we hear about the Jews but not the others who suffered... 27 million Soviets for instance.


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    Re: Western propaganda

    Post  Regular on Fri Apr 26, 2013 1:35 pm

    Well in Soviet army itself some people died because of illness and disease, injuries and other causes. Sometimes there was lack of food and conditions were bad. And I'm not surprised that it wasn't easy for POWs in Soviet Union. It would be outrage to treat them better than Your own soldiers.

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    Re: Western propaganda

    Post  Regular on Fri Apr 26, 2013 1:38 pm

    I can't believe that we are arguing about Holocaust in Russian forum (!!!). I wonder what veteran Russians jews would say about it.

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    Re: Western propaganda

    Post  BTRfan on Fri Apr 26, 2013 3:38 pm

    GarryB wrote:
    Germany started a war of conquest to capture and take possession of land to its east. The Soviets fought a war of defence... are you going to criticise the Soviets for continuing beyond their own borders and fighting all the way to Germany. Over a million Soviet soldiers gave their lives to defeat Germany in foreign countries... the Soviet Union had been liberated and so those Soviet soldiers weren't killed fighting for their motherland, they were fighting for other countries.




    Hitler said that the violations of the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact made war inevitable, particularly the NKVD helping the British and Americans instigate an anti-German coup in Belgrade.


    There was also the Soviet annexation of Bukovina from Romania, which was not covered in the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact and which Germany saw as a crass betrayal of the pact.

    Molotov had also demanded the right to send a Soviet garrison to Bulgaria and to establish Soviet bases on the Dardenelles.



    I don't think Germany had started to plan for a war with the Soviet Union until early-mid 1941. Almost everything they did was ad hoc. They had no organizations ready to administer occupied areas, they didn't form armies of exiles, they didn't cultivate exiles to form groups to govern or administer occupied areas, they didn't do anything consistent with planning for invasion and conquest/administration of occupied areas. I think the coup in Yugoslavia was what set in motion a wave of "panic" and they made some quick plans, what they thought would work.


    If the talks with Germany to join the Axis had proved successful in late 1940 things would have been very different.


    The massive Soviet losses suffered in the first months of the war in June, July, and August of 1941 did not occur because of cowardice, or poor fighting ability, or lack of rifles, or lack of tanks, or because the Soviet soldiers would not stand and fight. The losses were due to the deployment of the Soviet forces, they were arrayed almost entirely along the border with Germany in their final "jumping off" points for a mass invasion sometime in July-August, and they had no depth for defense. The Germans were able to concentrate in several key areas, blast holes through the Soviet lines, and rapidly encircle enormous numbers of men.




    By May of 1941 I believe both Stalin and Hitler wanted war and both knew it was just a matter of time until war was coming and it was going to be a matter of who struck first. The chance for diplomatic cooperation had passed.

    If Germany had waited and waited and waited, we'd be reading about how the Soviet offensive into Poland began in August 1941.

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    Re: Western propaganda

    Post  BTRfan on Fri Apr 26, 2013 3:51 pm

    Regular wrote:I can't believe that we are arguing about Holocaust in Russian forum (!!!). I wonder what veteran Russians jews would say about it.


    I can just about guarantee you that almost nobody in America knows a thing about the suffering, misery, and death of millions of Russian, Ukrainian, and other Soviet soldiers between 1941-1945, or what happened with the Serbs at the hands of the Axis [primarily the Croats], or what happened to the Armenians because of the Ottoman Turks just before and during WW1.

    Jews have a monopoly on suffering, real or imagined, and all Americans see are movies about them being butchered.

    The Jews also made dozens of "holocaust porn" movies in the 1970s where concentration camp inmates have sex orgies with the SS guards.





    I could never in my life imagine a Russian making a porn video about a gulag director having orgies with the females [and males] of the gulag. Even if somebody were creepy enough to make such a movie, they would have to realize it wouldn't earn a single ruble, certainly not enough to pay for the cost to produce it... But the Jews have produced dozens of holocaust pornography videos.

    I once made the point, "if your ancestors, your parents and grandparents, your aunts and uncles, really did suffer in camps, how on Earth could you ever bring yourself to exploit their suffering by making a pornographic movie about concentration camps and SS guards?"





    I'd wager less than 1% of Americans have heard of Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn, much less what he actually wrote about... Perhaps 5% have a vague idea what is meant by the term "gulag" although few know the name of Kolyma. Few know about the "Red Terror" carried out by the Cheka... That's another word "cheka" that if you use, most Americans will think you're talking about a bank cheque, "cheka, you mean a cheque, they don't take cheques in that store."


    Americans have a very narrow and shallow grasp of history... All they really "know" about WW2 is that Japan attacked America *without* provocation [they don't know about American involvement/interference in the Pacific and in China, or American economic warfare against Japan, or the embargoes on Japan, or "neutrality patrols" with gunships on the rivers of China, or the armaments shipped to China, or allowing American "volunteers" and mercenaries to go to China] and that Hitler wanted to take over the world and that the Germans, Italians, and Japanese were absolutely evil and the Americans and British were absolutely good. The Russians/Soviets were good until 1945 and then they immediately switched to absolutely evil. Oh, and Anne Frank was murdered by the Germans.


    That's about what most Americans know about WW2 and the immediate aftermath.

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    Re: Western propaganda

    Post  BTRfan on Fri Apr 26, 2013 3:58 pm

    Here's an article by American Nationalist/Conservative leader Patrick Buchanan... Please try to excuse his use of the word "hordes" when talking about the Red Army. Keep in mind, he's an American Nationalist, not a Russian Nationalist. I am sure some Russian leaders have used less than friendly language to describe Americans.

    Also Buchanan makes an exaggeration when he says that Germany had "no surface fleet" since they technically had about 2 dozen surface warships... However, they only had 2 battlecruisers [Scharnhorst and Gneisenau], the heavy cruser Admiral Hipper, and the pocket-battleships/heavy cruisers Deutschland, Admiral Scheer, and Graf Spee, two or three light cruisers, and about a dozen or so destroyers. Strictly speaking, it was not much of a surface fleet and the entire German surface fleet would not have been able to withstand a day's combat against a single American carrier-battle group or a British battleship-group.


    The classic British-American line is "Hitler was planning a war from day one, anybody who read Mein Kampf would know this." Well I've read Mein Kampf and I don't know that, because it isn't in there and his actions from 1933-1936 are not consistent with somebody planning a massive war with the world's greatest powers. If Hitler had been planning a war he would have started laying the ground work for a massive surface fleet in 1933 to prepare to challenge Britain... Even if he were not willing to tip his hand and do something as provocative as laying the hulls for a dozen battleships, he would have expanded the capacity of the shipyards so that many capital ships could be built simultaneously. It takes anywhere from 2-4 years from the day you say "lay the hull" and the hull is laid, to the time the ship is commissioned into the navy, for a battleship. If Hitler figured he wanted a war in the near future, he would have expanded the shipyards between 1933-1935 and started producing large numbers of capital ships no later than 1935-1936.

    The total lack of four engine heavy bombers, or really any sort of heavy bombers, also suggests that there was no longer-term plan for a war.

    Germany entered the war with only five panzer divisions and less than 20% of their infantry formations were motorized or mechanized, most marched on foot and their supply trains were moved by horse.

    If Germany had been planning a war, they might have thought about switching from civilian car production and tractor production, to military truck, military half-track, and tank production, around 1934-1936, and producing enough vehicles to motorize at least half or more of their armed forces.


    Britain on the other hand wound up with a fully motorized army by 1940! Yes, that's right! Every British infantry formation was motorized or mechanized. They motorized all of their formations during the 1930s! It was almost as if Britain was planning for a war or counting on war!



    http://buchanan.org/blog/did-hitler-want-war-2068



    On Sept. 1, 1939, 70 years ago, the German Army crossed the Polish frontier. On Sept. 3, Britain declared war.

    Six years later, 50 million Christians and Jews had perished. Britain was broken and bankrupt, Germany a smoldering ruin. Europe had served as the site of the most murderous combat known to man, and civilians had suffered worse horrors than the soldiers.

    By May 1945, Red Army hordes occupied all the great capitals of Central Europe: Vienna, Prague, Budapest, Berlin. A hundred million Christians were under the heel of the most barbarous tyranny in history: the Bolshevik regime of the greatest terrorist of them all, Joseph Stalin.

    What cause could justify such sacrifices?

    The German-Polish war had come out of a quarrel over a town the size of Ocean City, Md., in summer. Danzig, 95 percent German, had been severed from Germany at Versailles in violation of Woodrow Wilson’s principle of self-determination. Even British leaders thought Danzig should be returned.

    Why did Warsaw not negotiate with Berlin, which was hinting at an offer of compensatory territory in Slovakia? Because the Poles had a war guarantee from Britain that, should Germany attack, Britain and her empire would come to Poland’s rescue.

    But why would Britain hand an unsolicited war guarantee to a junta of Polish colonels, giving them the power to drag Britain into a second war with the most powerful nation in Europe?

    Was Danzig worth a war? Unlike the 7 million Hong Kongese whom the British surrendered to Beijing, who didn’t want to go, the Danzigers were clamoring to return to Germany.

    Comes the response: The war guarantee was not about Danzig, or even about Poland. It was about the moral and strategic imperative “to stop Hitler” after he showed, by tearing up the Munich pact and Czechoslovakia with it, that he was out to conquer the world. And this Nazi beast could not be allowed to do that.

    If true, a fair point. Americans, after all, were prepared to use atom bombs to keep the Red Army from the Channel. But where is the evidence that Adolf Hitler, whose victims as of March 1939 were a fraction of Gen. Pinochet’s, or Fidel Castro’s, was out to conquer the world?

    After Munich in 1938, Czechoslovakia did indeed crumble and come apart. Yet consider what became of its parts.

    The Sudeten Germans were returned to German rule, as they wished. Poland had annexed the tiny disputed region of Teschen, where thousands of Poles lived. Hungary’s ancestral lands in the south of Slovakia had been returned to her. The Slovaks had their full independence guaranteed by Germany. As for the Czechs, they came to Berlin for the same deal as the Slovaks, but Hitler insisted they accept a protectorate.

    Now one may despise what was done, but how did this partition of Czechoslovakia manifest a Hitlerian drive for world conquest?

    Comes the reply: If Britain had not given the war guarantee and gone to war, after Czechoslovakia would have come Poland’s turn, then Russia’s, then France’s, then Britain’s, then the United States.

    We would all be speaking German now.

    But if Hitler was out to conquer the world — Britain, Africa, the Middle East, the United States, Canada, South America, India, Asia, Australia — why did he spend three years building that hugely expensive Siegfried Line to protect Germany from France? Why did he start the war with no surface fleet, no troop transports and only 29 oceangoing submarines? How do you conquer the world with a navy that can’t get out of the Baltic Sea?

    If Hitler wanted the world, why did he not build strategic bombers, instead of two-engine Dorniers and Heinkels that could not even reach Britain from Germany?

    Why did he let the British army go at Dunkirk?

    Why did he offer the British peace, twice, after Poland fell, and again after France fell?

    Why, when Paris fell, did Hitler not demand the French fleet, as the Allies demanded and got the Kaiser’s fleet? Why did he not demand bases in French-controlled Syria to attack Suez? Why did he beg Benito Mussolini not to attack Greece?

    Because Hitler wanted to end the war in 1940, almost two years before the trains began to roll to the camps.

    Hitler had never wanted war with Poland, but an alliance with Poland such as he had with Francisco Franco’s Spain, Mussolini’s Italy, Miklos Horthy’s Hungary and Father Jozef Tiso’s Slovakia.

    Indeed, why would he want war when, by 1939, he was surrounded by allied, friendly or neutral neighbors, save France. And he had written off Alsace, because reconquering Alsace meant war with France, and that meant war with Britain, whose empire he admired and whom he had always sought as an ally.

    As of March 1939, Hitler did not even have a border with Russia. How then could he invade Russia?

    Winston Churchill was right when he called it “The Unnecessary War” — the war that may yet prove the mortal blow to our civilization.

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