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    Western propaganda

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    Zivo
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    Re: Western propaganda

    Post  Zivo on Sun Mar 31, 2013 7:58 am

    Why do you hate our freedom?

    But really, I remember when I was maybe 10 years old I saw the Su-27 in a magazine. My first though was how could a backward civilization produce such a lethal yet elegant aircraft, and why have I never seen this in a TV military documentary? It made me very curious as to what else the "bad guys" might have that I wasn't aware of.

    Thank you Mikhail Simonov. When I run into him in the afterlife I'll have to buy him a drink Very Happy


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    Re: Western propaganda

    Post  GarryB on Sun Mar 31, 2013 9:31 am

    The west likes to pretend it is open minded and progressive, but at the end of the day it is a closed shop that is not open to different cultures and new ideas.

    Most of the criticisms the west likes to use against its enemies can be fairly applied to the west itself... often with more validity... The west has actually been responsible for undermining democracy, and outright invasion over the last century or so than Russia could ever be accused of... which is not to say that Russia is some innocent victim.

    American fast food is more likely to kill the world than "Russian expansionism" ever will.

    In fact the greatest danger to life as we now know it would be if China and India adopt American consumerism and waste and start burning up resources the way the US has for the last half century or so... the world could barely support 300 million people doing that... imagine when almost 3 billion try.

    Of course my main hope is that technology will save us, but perhaps it will be a false hope. The oil companies suppressed alternative energy sources because they weren't making money from alternative energy, and now that they have all rebranded themselves as "energy" companies and pretend to be working on alternative fuels I really think nothing has changed.

    The plans to go to Mars and the Moon will help develop technologies to recycle and reuse because we are going from an environment where water and food and heat and light are abundant to places where they are not. The technologies required to clean up polluted material or waste material and make it reusable will likely end up being valuable at some time in the future.


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    Re: Western propaganda

    Post  Regular on Fri Apr 12, 2013 6:33 pm

    I'm sick of any propaganda. Please, don't call it western propaganda. Call it real name. In Uk press Us soldiers are depicted as cowboys, and Uk soldiers as overall better material. Not to mention that they bash american gun ownership like they don't have their own problems to deal with. Btw, Israel is always a bad guy in Lithuanian press. Same in UK papers.

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    Re: Western propaganda

    Post  KomissarBojanchev on Sat Apr 13, 2013 8:29 pm

    Regular wrote: Israel is always a bad guy in Lithuanian press. Same in UK papers.
    But I assume in Baltic media Chechen and Albanian religious extremists are seen as some kind of heroic freedom fighter martyrs because they commited genocide on Russians and Russian allies Wink ?

    BTW I've always wondered which Baltic governments are more russophobic. I've heard that Lithuanians are the least and Estonians are the most. Those clowns really mean business with their government supported SS worship events in Tartu. I wonder after how much more time will they put up statues of Hitler and pals over obliterated memorials of fallen soviet soldiers. Laughing

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    Re: Western propaganda

    Post  nemrod on Sat Apr 13, 2013 10:56 pm

    KomissarBojanchev wrote:

    BTW I've always wondered which Baltic governments are more russophobic. I've heard that Lithuanians are the least and Estonians are the most. Those clowns really mean business with their government supported SS worship events in Tartu. I wonder after how much more time will they put up statues of Hitler and pals over obliterated memorials of fallen soviet soldiers. Laughing

    I have nothing against british, nothing against american people, they are all victim as us, but here in west, propaganda this is where I swam, since the begining of my life.
    When I mean states, I mean true countries, with history, with economy, streams input/output from normal situation. Baltic states are not countries, just a simple provinces that were removed from Russia, when Russia was weak. As soon as possible, with the US's decline situation, these provinces will be back to Russia. Baltic countries are just only tools in US hands in order to blow, attack, destabilize Russia. The ultimate goal of this global'oligarchy, is established in Russia, as fly changed the donkey. USA is ill, Econmy is ruined, now for this cruel barbaric oligarchy; it is time to leave, and to search a new area, Russia is the better area for them.
    After their goals done successfully, believe me, Baltic countries, as Poland, as Slovak, Check, etc...will be dropped, as you throw a dirty sockets in garbage.
    If I was a baltic's politician -as a fanatic guy Lansbergis for example-, I started to see what's happenned recently during the second world war, when Roosevelt, Morgenthau, Marshall sacrified the all east of Europa-either you name Sikorsky or not, Churchill or not-, british empire, and frencheese empire.
    They have no senses, just calculus. They used Walesa as in football party when you shoot the ball, when the ball is useless, it was thrown in garbage. Look what'is happenning in Poland.
    US global oligarchy is more satanic, is far more diabolic than you can never imagine. What is the weight of baltic countries ? Null or near. This card will be sacrified soon or later.

    Just a last word concerning baltic countries, without american help -that is going to become less and less the case- these countries will collapse. As Baltic countries have no output to offer, the only thing that they can do for their masters, is to leave US deploying a so called shield, or new Pershing II.

    In this new chessboard Israel is going to be dropped too, those who will pay, are not the leaders and richs, no, as always the average people who will pay the hard price. Let's leave the baltic politicians to dream into their idealistic nonsens utopias. How will be hard the awakening.
    It took me decades to understand what is the oligarchy, and what are their purposes, and untill now I still discover new things that I ignored.

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    Re: Western propaganda

    Post  KomissarBojanchev on Sat Apr 13, 2013 11:53 pm

    I agree with most of what you say but Baltic cultures are quite different from the Russian culture. I would say a extensions of Russia are Ukraine and the glorious socialist Byelorussia Wink . BTW the only empirialist action the USSR ever did in its history was the Baltic annexation and that is a bit debatable since these regions were previously territories of the russian empire and the main soviet goal between 1922 and 1941 was to take back the lost territories of the former empire. However if the Georgian paranoid leader didn't take them they would've surely captured. Were they all faschist quasi-dictatorships? Yes(Pats, Smetona, that Latvian dude that I forgot).But did Addie Shitler view them as a fellow Aryan race not worthy of total enslavement and subsequent extermination? No. It would've been interesting if that would've happened. Mostl likely Leningrad being so close to the border would've been occupied thus ensuring defeat of the USSR and thus eastern Europe losing all hope of being saved from being slaves of Nordic families but if the USSR by miracle actually won by miracle I'm 100% sure that the Baltics(apart from Estonia) would have a warm opinion of Russians and would view them as distant brothers with common Slavic roots.

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    Re: Western propaganda

    Post  KomissarBojanchev on Sat Apr 13, 2013 11:57 pm

    Russia doesn't need to retake the Baltic countries by force. instead when the situation in the EU becomes extra shi**y maybe they would leave it gradually get into a Russian alliance(probably by then the almost Scandinavian level of russophobia will be worn out).

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    Re: Western propaganda

    Post  KomissarBojanchev on Sun Apr 14, 2013 12:03 am

    nemrod wrote:
    KomissarBojanchev wrote:

    BTW I've always wondered which Baltic governments are more russophobic. I've heard that Lithuanians are the least and Estonians are the most. Those clowns really mean business with their government supported SS worship events in Tartu. I wonder after how much more time will they put up statues of Hitler and pals over obliterated memorials of fallen soviet soldiers. Laughing

    Let's leave the baltic politicians to dream into their idealistic nonsens utopias. How will be hard the awakening.
    It took me decades to understand what is the oligarchy, and what are their purposes, and untill now I still discover new things that I ignored.
    the Baltic politicians don't believe in utopias(except if you consider their wishes total Russian extermination) they, like almost every east European politician(including the s**theads ruling Bulgaria) is to make the EU give them more "development" money so they could steal it in order to fill their own pockets.

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    Re: Western propaganda

    Post  GarryB on Sun Apr 14, 2013 2:10 am

    No offence to members from baltic states but they seem to me to be rats jumping ships when it suits them... a bit like the west.

    Churchill always said he hated communism yet was prepared to join an alliance with them when it suited his purposes.

    It was actually communism that released the baltic states and gave them independence in the 1917 commie revolution. They were only returned to the fold by that Georgian Stalin because he knew war was coming and he wanted control of all the neighbours he could manage because he knew war with Germany was coming.


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    ― Samuel P. Huntington, The Clash of Civilizations and the Remaking of World Order

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    Re: Western propaganda

    Post  Regular on Sun Apr 14, 2013 12:00 pm

    So much hate and false accusations. But I'm a calm man, it's not like I don't hear nonsense from other side - to most westerns we are russians or polish. Again - Lithuania never had SS because no one wanted to join. Thats why we were punished by Nazi occupants. No gov supported SS parades in Lithuania.
    You know that it is really insulting to read that Lithuania is not a country. Guess who attacked Muscovites in good old days. Read some history. You are all welcome to visit, our number 1 turists are Russian anyway (guess they don't hate it so much as You do)
    And no after Beslan Chechens are evil in our media. We even arrested their supporter. It's not London where they roam free. We don't support Georgia as our new government seen there is nothing to gain there.

    And here is my view - Quality of life in Lithuania is better then in Russia. Not saying that is good too, as in Uk I earn 8 times more for same job as in Lithuania and work less hours.
    My mother travels to Russia once in 6 months. She stayed in science town called Pushino two weeks ago. Is there a word for BESPRIDEL in English? She is very pro-russian and she organises events with youth from ex soviet block that interested in BioChem goes to European tech. and science campuses. Russian science is clining on good intentions and enthusiasm as money is very small and there are old people who sacrifice themselves to teach youth as there is no middle aged people. Prices in Russia are same and sometimes biger than in Lithuania. Wages are smaller, there is more corruption. Not saying we are way better but definety there was no awe when I was in Moscow. Very clean city I must say, but not best place to live because of nonsense prices. And so much can be done to attract more investment.

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    Re: Western propaganda

    Post  Regular on Sun Apr 14, 2013 12:50 pm

    How an old right winger as Landsbergis is relevant? He did his job when needed while most chickened out. Don't like his paranoid rhetoric and his name became a curseword for some. If cat shits in his slipper he blames KGB. Our gov today is different, less talking, less working. As for American help please tell me what do we get? OUR "TANKS" ARE M113, almost no airforce and apart from few jets there is NO NATO MILITARY stationed. Our economy is service based as European union wasn't happy that we wanted to be economicly independent so they destroyed our agriculture and now we have european shopping centers every where and no major factories where we could make our products even for internal consumption not to talk about export. Not to mention EU funds that always reach wrong causes and wrong people. Not to mention brain drain. Still we are way better than Greece or Cyprus. Life is stable. We eastern europeans don't panic and carry even when it's bad. Not like our southern members that we have nothing common with :-D

    Sorry guys, but it's funny to read it, same like a blind man telling how ugly is the women he met. Our and Russian propaganda does splendid job in distorting real image too. I have loads russian friends who can show me Russia better than any guide and tell me more than any news agency

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    Re: Western propaganda

    Post  KomissarBojanchev on Sun Apr 14, 2013 2:23 pm

    I never mentioned SS parades in Lithuania. I said about the Estonian ones .

    BTW be proud you have M113s. They are one of the best APCs ever built Wink

    I have another question. Before 8.8.08 did the Lithuanian media mention anything about the donation of some Lithuanian weapons to Georgia? Did Suckasswilly even pay for them ?Did it significantly weaken Lithuanian military power?

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    Re: Western propaganda

    Post  collegeboy16 on Sun Apr 14, 2013 3:56 pm

    KomissarBojanchev wrote:
    BTW be proud you have M113s. They are one of the best APCs ever built Wink
    Hmm, another of Sparky's disciples eh Suspect

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    Re: Western propaganda

    Post  Regular on Sun Apr 14, 2013 4:27 pm

    KomissarBojanchev wrote:I never mentioned SS parades in Lithuania. I said about the Estonian ones .

    BTW be proud you have M113s. They are one of the best APCs ever built Wink

    I have another question. Before 8.8.08 did the Lithuanian media mention anything about the donation of some Lithuanian weapons to Georgia? Did Suckasswilly even pay for them ?Did it significantly weaken Lithuanian military power?

    No, i've never knew about it, never heard these donations before war, but I don't know why they need more AK-47 for? They had more than us before war. Plus they have heavy equipment, hell we even few of us receive AT training because even training shots cost. You know, it didn't weaken our army but it drained our reserves. Reserves are kept for reason, not to give away to third party. They promised us that we could establish business in his country and etc, but don't know if we lost interest in it or he didn't keep his word. Thanks God we have different Government that doesn't get in these ventures and only questionable purchase is. And back in 2008 I was serving and we all thought it was full scale operation by Russians. Didn't have internet access for like 2 weeks so basically imagined Georgian armed completely decimated by airstrikes and tochka attacks. I found out that they managed to get out(run away)relatively clean.

    Estonian matter - Don't know why some of them still respect those who served in SS as it just undermines their look as modern country. Invite some germans there too, make it more awkward than it is now. Estonia is a strange country, they don't look at us as our brothers and they think they are Northern, they pretend they are smaller Finland. I know they are doing better economically than us, their army is better funded and life there is definitely better than ours,they don't need to run away from their country to find work abroad. They seem to don't how to act properly when it comes to relationships with Russians in their country. They want to assimilate them but only wides gap between them.

    Wasn't very impressed with M113 when i was serving maybe because of it looked like a matchstick box. I can't say we need something better or never but it wouldn't hurt. We still have old BTR-60 used by some of our services.
    check this if interested. AK-47, Btr, people riding on top of it, Mi-8 what not to like Very Happy They are not special forces, more or less something like Omon.
    http://tv.delfi.lt/video/8CrIGuZq/

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    Re: Western propaganda

    Post  nemrod on Tue Apr 16, 2013 10:32 pm

    KomissarBojanchev wrote:

    I have another question. Before 8.8.08 did the Lithuanian media mention anything about the donation of some Lithuanian weapons to Georgia? Did Suckasswilly even pay for them ?Did it significantly weaken Lithuanian military power?

    I did not know that, but from vicous baltic politicians countries nothing astonished me.
    The only purpose of their so-called independance is to provoke Russia. But what can they do ? Their independance is bought by Washington and consequently are tightly linked to US neocons. I heard that Lituania, Estonia, Lettonia, beside Poland, and Cech pushed for Georgia's integration into Nato.
    Fortunetly in that time, Germany vetoed, and understood very quickly the danger.

    The things were simple, if they waged a war against Russia, Germany won't participate, after that France, Belgium, Netherland, and many western countries followed Germany. They did not want war with Russia.
    Fortunetly the 2008 crisis ended this stalemate.

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    Re: Western propaganda

    Post  BTRfan on Mon Apr 22, 2013 10:30 am

    GarryB wrote:War is often called a game, but the stakes are death... very few people would enter an actual game where the stakes were their life where they had to use equipment that they knew was inferior to the other side.

    It is not just the west as we know it today... before WWII started most British Empire countries believed Japanese planes were made of rice paper and could not fly in the rain. The Zero was the best fighter anywhere in 1941, its problem was that it didn't improve and change when it came up against different enemies.

    The Germans thought the pinnacle of Soviet tank production was the T-32 multi turreted tank and the T-26 light tank.

    The point of course is that it doesn't matter how good or how bad your equipment is, it is how it is used... tactics... and how your enemy reacts too.

    German Panzer 2-4 tanks were inferior to the T-34 and KV-1 tanks they faced, yet they were still effective because they operated as a team with good communications... they called in air support and artillery to deal with targets their own guns couldn't deal with, or they bypassed the enemy strong points and left those problems for the infantry forces to reduce and destroy.

    The west is never going to admit to having inferior material, even when it is obvious, because they can secure local superiority in numbers, and they also have what are called force multipliers and of course good communications to allow them to be far more efficient and effective with their use of force.

    Even if Serbia had F-22s they still would not have won over Kosovo... NATO would simply have launched cruise missile attack after cruise missile attack against all the potential airfields it could have operated them from.



    Contrary to the all popular Blitkrieg myth which has taken hold in the West, I don't believe the Germans had an actual coherent operational doctrine that was widely taught and applied. They never mechanized/motorized more than 20% of their formations and only the very best/elite units received half-tracks. Most infantry divisions marched on foot, had their artillery towed by horses, and they were lucky to have one battalion per division motorized with truck.

    The campaign in France was won through a number of factors, but the idea of an armored/mechanized German juggernaut crushing the French in a "Blitzkrieg" is essentially a myth. Yes the armor blasted holes in the French lines but it was primarily the German infantry, rapidly advancing, who won the day and secured the victory.



    The Soviets achieved operational parity with the Germans by early 1944 and were consistently beating them by mid-late 1944. There were several major operations where the Soviets were outnumbered by the Germans and managed to win while losing less the Germans. Such a thing would have been unheard of in 1942 or even 1943 [to say nothing of 1941]. By late 1944 the Germans were faced with an opponent who had a better doctrine, more equipment, more infantry, more guns/artillery, more aircraft, more tanks, with the tanks being at least equal to the average German tank [I'd say the T-34/85 was at least equal to the Panzer IVH and IVJ and close to being on equal with the Panther].

    The Germans were greatly harmed by attrition but the classic Western image of the Soviets sending 20 million screaming men, half with rifles, the other half with instructions to "pick up the rifle when the other man goes down" might have an element of truth if applied to 1941, but it is absurd to think such methods are how the Soviets gained the initiative in 1943 and then took the war to the Germans in 1944-1945.



    Serbia has something the West does not have... Time!

    The Serbs suffered under Turkish/Ottoman rule for centuries and they waited, they bided their time... The Greeks did the same, as did the Bulgars. The more time goes by the weaker America and the NATO become due to their ridiculous welfare state policies and their unwritten rules of bailing out poorly managed financial companies with $500 billion dollars or $1,500 billion dollars courtesy of the tax-payers. Serbia can wait 20-30 years until the American economy totally implodes to the point where it cannot sustain a modern military and it no longer has the logistics system in place to allow for projecting divisional and corps power overseas.


    The only thing that the Serbs must stand on guard against is the encroachment of Western pop culture, hip-hop, rap, "gangsta" life, Britney Spears, MTV, VH1, and other such filth. If they swallow all of that they will find themselves poisoned and their people will lose the will to recover historic Serbian lands.

    Serbia can wait a few decades and beat America through their patience, as long as they don't accept garbage pop culture and decadent consumerism.

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    Re: Western propaganda

    Post  GarryB on Mon Apr 22, 2013 11:47 am

    The Germans were greatly harmed by attrition but the classic Western image of the Soviets sending 20 million screaming men, half with rifles, the other half with instructions to "pick up the rifle when the other man goes down" might have an element of truth if applied to 1941, but it is absurd to think such methods are how the Soviets gained the initiative in 1943 and then took the war to the Germans in 1944-1945.

    The "Enemy at the Gates" Myth. The Soviets were actually fairly well prepared for WWII in terms of small arms. During WWI there were serious shortages that saw foreign orders for small arms and a range of weapons being used... the US Army had the same problem and adopted the Chauchat during the first WW.

    During the second world war however I have only read about one instance where Soviet troops went into battle without full equipment and that was during the Siege at Stalingrad where troops had to be rushed across to prevent a German victory. In that instance one in ten soldiers didn't have a rifle, not one in two, and when they got across the river and into battle there were piles of weapons available... the shortages were in food and ammo which they took with them.


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    Re: Western propaganda

    Post  KomissarBojanchev on Mon Apr 22, 2013 6:30 pm

    GarryB wrote:
    The Germans were greatly harmed by attrition but the classic Western image of the Soviets sending 20 million screaming men, half with rifles, the other half with instructions to "pick up the rifle when the other man goes down" might have an element of truth if applied to 1941, but it is absurd to think such methods are how the Soviets gained the initiative in 1943 and then took the war to the Germans in 1944-1945.

    The "Enemy at the Gates" Myth. The Soviets were actually fairly well prepared for WWII in terms of small arms. During WWI there were serious shortages that saw foreign orders for small arms and a range of weapons being used... the US Army had the same problem and adopted the Chauchat during the first WW.

    During the second world war however I have only read about one instance where Soviet troops went into battle without full equipment and that was during the Siege at Stalingrad where troops had to be rushed across to prevent a German victory. In that instance one in ten soldiers didn't have a rifle, not one in two, and when they got across the river and into battle there were piles of weapons available... the shortages were in food and ammo which they took with them.
    While the fact about infantry is plausible the shortage or complete lack of AP rounds for tanks artillery until after 1943. I've read that a ZIS-3 battery during the battle of kursk had less than 10 APHE shells for all guns, the rest was HE, quite useless against an assault of mostly pz.4Ausf.Hs, tigers and panthers.
    not to mention throughout the war soviet AP shells of all calibers had abysmal quality control. in theory the 45mm guns on the BT-7s and T-26s could easily penetrate the widespread then Pz.2s and early version Pz.3s but in reality they were so poorly made that the soviet shells just shattered on the thin armor of the german tanks. The situation was similar for the T-34-85s and Is-2s against the tigers and panthers late in the war.

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    Re: Western propaganda

    Post  GarryB on Tue Apr 23, 2013 11:37 am

    There were certainly shortages of quality ammo and certainly that was not limited to the Soviet Union... most countries other than Germany were not prepared for the war that was coming.

    In many ways the French tanks were rather better than the German tanks in terms of armour and fire power, but in the end the difference was that most Soviet tanks and French tanks and British tanks were light tanks and they often had a crew of two, with the commander performing the roles of loader and gunner as well as commander... often using fairly crude optics.

    The German tanks however tended to have a larger crew with clearly defined roles that allowed the gunner to focus on the target, the loader to keep the gun loaded, and the commander to look for threats and targets.

    The shortage of AP ammo was a real problem for the Soviets, but the critical problem was the obsolete layout and crew role orientation.

    Equally the communication issue was critical as the German tanks worked together, while the French and British and Soviet tanks needed to be watching their command tank for visual instructions by light or signal flag... how effective can a light T-26 tank be when one of the crew is driving the vehicle and the other crewman is watching his lead tank for instructions, while also loading and aiming the gun.

    The German vehicles were effective because they were used as a team while early Soviet tanks were not used together, they were separated out to operate with infantry... a large group of German tanks therefore faced a few light and medium tanks optimised for infantry support... all the German tanks fire on two or three of the tanks and for the second shot there might only be one or two tanks left.

    By the time the Germans invaded the Soviet Union they had already practised their tactics across western europe... they knew what worked and what didn't. The Soviets had to learn the hard way.

    BTW the HE shells of the 76.2mm artillery were quite effective against the German light tanks. They didn't face many tiger or panthers till after 1943... in fact the battle of Kursk in 43 was really the first time the Germans concentrated Tigers and the new Panthers... they should have been invincible... it should have been a walk over... but the ISU-152... nicknamed animal hunter because it killed Panthers, Tigers, and Elephants with its HE power alone, and the mines and the trenches and the air power and the Soviets stopped them and pushed them back.

    The result of course was that they realised they had to upgrade and the 85mm gun in the T-34/85, the 100mm gun of the Su-100, and the 122mm guns of the IS-2-3 etc were the solutions to the problems posed at Kursk. My favourite was the Su-100... its nickname was "F@#$ing end to everything".

    I have a German book about Soviet armour and the Su-100 was the most respected Soviet vehicle because of its low profile and its very powerful gun.


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    Re: Western propaganda

    Post  BTRfan on Tue Apr 23, 2013 10:44 pm

    As for Kursk, I believe if they had followed up Third Kharkov with an immediate strike on the Kursk salient, it would have been a success. By delaying to allow for delivery of the latest tanks, they allowed the Soviets to build colossal and intricate defenses in addition to giving them the chance to amass substantial reserve and counter-attack forces.

    It is important to keep the initiative and maintain tempo, rapidly follow one success with another. You don't smash the enemy in one operation and then give him months to recover, you follow one victory with another. Unless there are major reasons and other considerations at play, the successful conclusion of one operation/offense should mark the beginning of the next offensive/operation.

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    Re: Western propaganda

    Post  GarryB on Wed Apr 24, 2013 3:24 am

    As for Kursk, I believe if they had followed up Third Kharkov with an immediate strike on the Kursk salient, it would have been a success. By delaying to allow for delivery of the latest tanks, they allowed the Soviets to build colossal and intricate defenses in addition to giving them the chance to amass substantial reserve and counter-attack forces.

    I disagree. The whole point of the operation was to create a pincer movement and trap an enormous group of Soviet forces like they did in 1941... this was 1943 and I think the Soviet forces were well aware of what was at stake and their likely treatment as prisoners of war and that mass surrender was no longer an option. Equally I think the reserve forces could have been used to break them out... but most importantly... without the Tigers and Panthers and Elephants they never would have done as well as they did because standard artillery and anti armour equipment of the Soviet Army could deal with their other types.

    It is important to keep the initiative and maintain tempo, rapidly follow one success with another. You don't smash the enemy in one operation and then give him months to recover, you follow one victory with another.

    The problem is that the disparity was no longer there... the Soviet Army of 1943 was not the same Army of 1941... much better armed, much better equipped, and p!ssed off at what the Germans had already done to their country and fairly keen to stop them doing more. It was the German Army that needed the time more than the Soviets did as they were still reeling from the loss of an enormous number of men and equipment at Stalingrad and it was the Germans that needed a victory.

    What the Germans should have done was bypass Kursk, ignore the bulge there, and head East. The purpose of Citadel was to bag a large Soviet force, encircle it, and then dismember it... without the preparation time the Soviet defences would have been much weaker, but then the attacking force would have been much weaker too... even if they had managed to encircle the Soviet forces (remember they are not idiots and could easily have decided to withdraw out of the pocket, or use air supply to keep the forces in the pocket able to fight their way out)... it was never going to be a huge mass surrender of Soviet forces with the loss of enormous amounts of material...


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    Re: Western propaganda

    Post  BTRfan on Thu Apr 25, 2013 7:33 am

    GarryB wrote:

    What the Germans should have done was bypass Kursk, ignore the bulge there, and head East. The purpose of Citadel was to bag a large Soviet force, encircle it, and then dismember it... without the preparation time the Soviet defences would have been much weaker, but then the attacking force would have been much weaker too... even if they had managed to encircle the Soviet forces (remember they are not idiots and could easily have decided to withdraw out of the pocket, or use air supply to keep the forces in the pocket able to fight their way out)... it was never going to be a huge mass surrender of Soviet forces with the loss of enormous amounts of material...


    The idea of Soviet aerial supply of a pocket containing perhaps 400,000 men to 600,000 men [or however many the Kursk salient contained in late March and early April] in the immediate aftermath of 3rd Kharkov, is almost laughable.

    The Soviets lacked sufficient aerial transport/cargo planes and they had no real experience with an air-lift to deliver large amounts of supplies.

    The lion's share of Germany's cargo craft were unable to keep the 6th Army supplied during the encirclement at Stalingrad. I doubt the Soviets would have been able to deliver sufficient supplies to soldiers in a Kursk pocket in late March 1943, especially with the added burden of the civilians in Kursk [which I have read is a massive city in terms of size and population].


    They could have ignored Kursk and gone on the offensive around Rostov, or they could have waited for the Soviets to attack, or they could have attacked immediately after Kharkov... Another option would have been to hold in the south and center, shift forces to the north, and finish Leningrad, which would free up soldiers for deployment elsewhere. I believe finishing off Leningrad would probably have required the use of Tabun and Sarin though [mind you Germany had a monopoly on these nerve agents].

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    Re: Western propaganda

    Post  BTRfan on Thu Apr 25, 2013 7:36 am

    GarryB wrote:


    I disagree. The whole point of the operation was to create a pincer movement and trap an enormous group of Soviet forces like they did in 1941... this was 1943 and I think the Soviet forces were well aware of what was at stake and their likely treatment as prisoners of war and that mass surrender was no longer an option. Equally I think the reserve forces could have been used to break them out... but most importantly... without the Tigers and Panthers and Elephants they never would have done as well as they did because standard artillery and anti armour equipment of the Soviet Army could deal with their other types.



    There is certainly no denying that many prisoners were horribly mistreated, neglected, abused, worked to death, starved to death, on both sides. Germans had minimal chance of coming back alive from the Soviet Union just as Soviets had minimal chance coming back alive from Germany.

    However, several million Ukrainians and Russians did serve with the Germans either directly in front-line combat units or as auxiliaries. So mass surrender was always an option, but it was sort of a roll of the dice. You might wind up making weapons as a slave laborer, you might be shot as a suspected communist, or you might be able to join some collaboration unit. Once you're captured though you really cannot expect to return to the Soviet Union knowing that Stalin regards POWs as traitors to the state, so your only viable option would be to ingratiate yourself with the Germans, fight alongside them, and hope they win or at least stalemate Stalin.

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    Re: Western propaganda

    Post  TR1 on Thu Apr 25, 2013 8:24 am

    "
    There is certainly no denying that many prisoners were horribly mistreated, neglected, abused, worked to death, starved to death, on both sides. Germans had minimal chance of coming back alive from the Soviet Union just as Soviets had minimal chance coming back alive from Germany."

    I don't want to sound upset or anything, but I find that to be a characterization inaccurate in the extreme. One that is also disturbingly pervasive in Western "perception" of the war. I don't want to lump you among ignoramuses but, let us look at statistics.

    The USSR took 2,389,600 German Prisoners during the war. Of these, 450,600 died.
    The Axis took 5.7 million Soviet POWs. Of these, 3.3 million died, or OVER 57%.

    Further, we need to consider that often when German POWs perished, it was due to their already horribly sick status (for example, the POWs after Stalingrad almost all died because they were beyond recovery in the Winter conditions), or because there were not enough supplies to feed them. This contrasts with the treatment that Soviet POWs got, especially in first years of the war (before they were badly needed for Slave labor), when many were shot (outright or due to the Comissar Order) outright. The camps that the Soviet POWs were placed at were pretty much as bad as anything out of the Holocaust, literally fenced encirclements, left to die with no attempt at even basic care whatsoever.

    http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/59/Bundesarchiv_Bild_192-208%2C_KZ_Mauthausen%2C_Sowjetische_Kriegsgefangene.jpg

    This is what the Germans did to Soviet POWs.
    It's too bad there wasn't more serious investigation of any German personnel who had any connection with Prison guarding or the logistical creation of the prisons. Death is as far as I'm concerned the only thing they deserve.
    For what they did in World War 2 the German nation got off easy.

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    Re: Western propaganda

    Post  GarryB on Thu Apr 25, 2013 8:34 am

    The idea of Soviet aerial supply of a pocket containing perhaps 400,000 men to 600,000 men [or however many the Kursk salient contained in late March and early April] in the immediate aftermath of 3rd Kharkov, is almost laughable.

    It is rather unlikely the Germans could close the pincers fast enough to capture 400,000 men, and even if they did, Kursk is a fairly short range trip from a huge number of Soviet controlled air strips. Add to that the fact that the Red Air Force was a completely different force in 43 than 41, and I think you are misguided with your sense of humour. Equally in 1943 we are talking about battle hardened well equipped and properly led Soviet troops.

    The Soviets lacked sufficient aerial transport/cargo planes and they had no real experience with an air-lift to deliver large amounts of supplies.

    Actually they still had quite a lot of transport aircraft and bombers that would be obsolete as bombers but useful for delivering material at night. Equally I rather doubt the Germans would have a sufficient force to ensure the ring was tight... remember the Germans are committing all its forces into an attack to encircle a small portion of the Soviet troops it thinks is there and it knows nothing of the reserve forces waiting to go onto the offensive after the German attack is blunted. In the event many of these forces had to be committed to the battle because they had mistaken the direction of the main attack and had the southern path too weakly defended and had to send reserves to support the southern defences. Their tactics of using the new tanks with their heavy armour up front with their weaker tanks behind doesn't work without the heavy front tanks so their tank forces probably would have been stopped just as quick even though the defences would have been much weaker too.

    The lion's share of Germany's cargo craft were unable to keep the 6th Army supplied during the encirclement at Stalingrad.

    German airfields were being captured and the Red Air Force was finding its feet and the ring included large numbers of anti aircraft guns for the dual use of stopping tanks and planes.

    Also that was in winter when the weather was terrible and many days no planes could fly anyway.

    They could have ignored Kursk and gone on the offensive around Rostov, or they could have waited for the Soviets to attack, or they could have attacked immediately after Kharkov...

    They needed a rest, going for Rostov would have left a large Soviet force on their flank... the whole purpose of Citadel was to straighten the line as well as capture a large Soviet force and annihilate it. Without super tanks the latter was never going to happen, and even with them we saw it didn't happen either.

    Another option would have been to hold in the south and center, shift forces to the north, and finish Leningrad, which would free up soldiers for deployment elsewhere.

    They were in no better a state to take Leningrad as they were to take Stalingrad. Siege was the best they could manage.

    I believe finishing off Leningrad would probably have required the use of Tabun and Sarin though [mind you Germany had a monopoly on these nerve agents].

    And the obvious problem there is that if they did then the Soviets and the western allies would likely have started using such weapons on Berlin and other German cities... that is a door the Germans never opened for a reason.

    However, several million Ukrainians and Russians did serve with the Germans either directly in front-line combat units or as auxiliaries.

    Some were forced and some chose to fight for the Nazis, but that doesn't change the fact that by 1943 the Soviets had seen what the Nazis were all about and there were no illusions about their fate if they surrendered.

    Once you're captured though you really cannot expect to return to the Soviet Union knowing that Stalin regards POWs as traitors to the state, so your only viable option would be to ingratiate yourself with the Germans, fight alongside them, and hope they win or at least stalemate Stalin.

    Sorry, I don't think you understand. Some people do want to live at any cost and will do some outrageous things to do so, and some really don't like their current government and would join up with a foreign power to change that, but after seeing what the Nazis had done to their country... and by 1943 most front line soldiers had seen places the Germans had occupied for a while, I really don't think they would volunteer in the traditional sense... much the same as the penal battalions in the Soviet forces didn't willingly volunteer. Given a choice of charging the enemy or being shot in the back of the head... it is more of a gamble than a choice.

    For what they did in World War 2 the German nation got off easy.

    Worse than that, they were the first greenies... anything they could recover and use from the dead they used... including hair that was used to stuff mattresses, glasses, gold fillings, even human skin was made into leather, and bodies rendered down into soap.

    I agree with TR-1 to compare the Soviet treatment of German soldiers with German treatment of Soviets is offensive.


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