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    Su-27SM vs Su-30SM/M2 vs Su-35S. Flankers Comparisons

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    Su-27SM vs Su-30SM/M2 vs Su-35S. Flankers Comparisons

    Post  indochina on Mon Mar 18, 2013 10:50 am

    According to my knowledge Su-27SM2 ​​is modernized version of the Su-27SM generation to save Russia's defense budget.Electronic weapons systems and similar Su-35

    For Su-30SM images and new information released, completely different from the Su-27SM. The only difference is the addition of wings Canard. I think it will be for export and replace the Su-30MK in the global market.

    Su-27SM2 or 3



    Su-30SM


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    Re: Su-27SM vs Su-30SM/M2 vs Su-35S. Flankers Comparisons

    Post  medo on Mon Mar 18, 2013 4:56 pm

    Su-27SM2 is more comparable with Su-30M2, because they both have similar engines without TVC and similar mechanical radars. Su-30SM is more comparable with Su-35, because they have both stronger engines with TVC and more powerful PESA radars (BARS and IRBIS) as well as more modern electronics.

    But all those flankers are multirole fighters.

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    Re: Su-27SM vs Su-30SM/M2 vs Su-35S. Flankers Comparisons

    Post  indochina on Tue Mar 19, 2013 6:46 am

    medo wrote:Su-27SM2 is more comparable with Su-30M2, because they both have similar engines without TVC and similar mechanical radars. Su-30SM is more comparable with Su-35, because they have both stronger engines with TVC and more powerful PESA radars (BARS and IRBIS) as well as more modern electronics.

    But all those flankers are multirole fighters.

    Su-30m2 and Su-30SM?How our differences ?

    Su-30m2 as I know is the trainer version of the Su-30MK. With wings Canard and TVC!

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    Re: Su-27SM vs Su-30SM/M2 vs Su-35S. Flankers Comparisons

    Post  TR1 on Tue Mar 19, 2013 5:41 pm

    You are confusing different variants from different plants.

    The Su-30SM is from the Irkut plant, where the Su-30MKI originates from. IT has canards and TVC.

    The Su-30MK is built at Komsomolsk, where they also build Su-35s now. The Su-30M2 is basically a domestic MK, has no carads, and no electronically scanned array.

    We don't know the exact differences from the Su-27SM2 to the Su-27SM, but it is certainly not as advanced as the Su-30SM.

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    Re: Su-27SM vs Su-30SM/M2 vs Su-35S. Flankers Comparisons

    Post  Sujoy on Tue Mar 19, 2013 6:17 pm

    The SU 27SM2 is the domestic version of the SU 35 . It is the stage two of the Su-27SM upgrade program.

    SU 30 SM is the IAPO-built domestic version based on the Su-30MKI

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    Re: Su-27SM vs Su-30SM/M2 vs Su-35S. Flankers Comparisons

    Post  TR1 on Tue Mar 19, 2013 11:04 pm

    Sujoi- the Su-27SM2 has nothing (well, they are both Flankers ofc ) to do with Su-35.
    Domestic Su-35 is called Su-35.
    Su-27SM2 is the designation for the 12 airframes delivered from Komsomoslk, that along with the 4 Su-30M2, are analogues to the Su-27SM upgrade fielded by the RuAF. There are some cockpit and equipment changes, but largely they are the same.
    They are both not nearly as sophisticated in equipment as Irkut's Su-30s or the Su-35.

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    Re: Su-27SM vs Su-30SM/M2 vs Su-35S. Flankers Comparisons

    Post  Sujoy on Wed Mar 20, 2013 6:32 am

    TR1 wrote:Sujoi- the Su-27SM2 has nothing (well, they are both Flankers ofc ) to do with Su-35.
    Domestic Su-35 is called Su-35.
    Su-27SM2 is the designation for the 12 airframes delivered from Komsomoslk, that along with the 4 Su-30M2, are analogues to the Su-27SM upgrade fielded by the RuAF. There are some cockpit and equipment changes, but largely they are the same.
    They are both not nearly as sophisticated in equipment as Irkut's Su-30s or the Su-35.


    You are making a mistake TR1 . Su-27 is the Russian Millitary designation - and they allocate a 'role' suffix - Su-27UB, Su-27M, Su-27IB, Su-27K, Su-27KUB etc. - At the end of the day they were all Su-27's

    After sometime the marketing/PR deparment of Sukhoi started to use their own numbers - Su-33(Su-27K), Su-34(Su-27IB), Su-35(Su-27M) etc.

    The Su-30KN from IAPO and the Su-27SM from KnAAPO were rival designs for the RusAF upgrade . Su-27SM from KnAAPO won.


    Back in Feb 2006 , it was clarified in an interview to Interfax by Pogosyan himself that the SU 27SM2 is the SU 35 . Read their article below :

    Su-35 Airplane to Be in Demand in Domestic and Export Markets

    The Su-35 (Su-27SM2) fighter, which the Sukhoy OKB is developing, will be in demand not only by the Russian air force, but also by foreign customers, the general director of the Sukhoy Aviation Holding Company, Mikhail Pogosyan, has declared.

    “We thing that the new airplane should be produced for the Russian air force in the Su-27SM2 “technical aspect.” Work in this direction is underway actively, inasmuch as the aircraft will be in demand both in Russia and abroad,” M. Pogosyan told Interfax-AVN.

    According to him, “the need for replacement in the future of the existing fleet of Su-27 type fighters will require marketing in the period approximately of 2009 – 2010 along with the upgrade and overhauls and the order of new airplanes for the Russian air force.”

    M. Pogosyan noted that in the draft of the Russia’s state arms program to 2015, all emphasis will be arranged neatly on the developments and purchases of aviation equipment, based on the volumes of financing.

    “The Su-27SM2 is the next stage with a transition to new sensors and phased antenna array of the aircraft radar (RLS),” the Sukhoy AkhK general director emphasized.

    In the opinions of specialists, the Su-27SM2 fighter, which is intended for Russia’s air force (the export variant is the Su-35) is a heavy upgrade of the Su-27/27SM fighters. The installation on the fighter of new aircraft engines with a thrust up to 14 tonnes (instead of 12.5 tonnes) and new aircraft equipment, including the “Irbis” aircraft radar, will be a distinguishing feature of the Su-27SM2. The fighter also is supposed to receive new long-range missiles of a different class.

    It is planned that the Su-27SM2 will be a step in the creation of the future tactical aviation aircraft complex, inasmuch as on it many proposals for the fifth generation combat airplane will be perfected, Interfax notes.

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    Re: Su-27SM vs Su-30SM/M2 vs Su-35S. Flankers Comparisons

    Post  TR1 on Wed Mar 20, 2013 6:59 am

    The Su-35 was originally called the Su-27M by the RuAF. That was back in the day of N011 and canards.
    Today's Su-35 is called just that, the Su-35.

    EDIT: OOOPS! Every time I wrote Su-27SM2 I meant Su-27SM3.
    That is the bird pictured in the opening post, and yeah it is basically Su-27SM, but new build.

    And yes you are quite right the project name for Su-35BM was originally Su-27SM2.
    Today it is simply Su-35S.

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    Re: Su-27SM vs Su-30SM/M2 vs Su-35S. Flankers Comparisons

    Post  GarryB on Wed Mar 20, 2013 9:30 am

    The Su-30 branch of the family is based on the Su-27UB two seat operational trainer. Anything you add to either the Su-27 or Su-30 you can add to the other.

    The Sukhoi company can name their planes anything they like, but the official names come from the Russian military and Su-27S, Su-27P indicate fighterbomber and interceptor models of the Su-27. The S model has air to air and air to ground capability while the P models were for the PVO and had no air to ground capability at all... even dumb rockets and dumb bombs.

    Electronics and IFF systems are different for frontal aviation and PVO aircraft.

    The Su-27SM was a modest upgrade that was a cheap and simple way to improve the in service Flankers from fairly basic to fairly good multi role aircraft. The Su-33 was like the original Su-27 with R-27 andR-27E capability and R-73 for air to air, while air to ground was dumb bombs and rockets, the only upgrade over the bog standard Su-27 was the introduction of the Kh-31 missile in the anti ship version. Even the Mig-29C was more sophisticated than eitehr in service Flanker as it could carry R-77s. The Russian AF didn't actually buy any R-77s for operational use, but if they did the Mig-29C was the only aircraft that could carry and use it that they had in operational numbers.

    The Su-27SM upgrades are the equivalent of the Mig-29SMT upgrades in that they were simple improvements that made the aircraft much more potent and capable at minimum costs and could be done relatively quickly... which was a good way of improving the general performance of the AF without having to wait years for new planes to be produced.

    At the end of the day the comparison between Su-27SM2 and Su-30SM is that the latter has two seats.


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    Re: Su-27SM vs Su-30SM/M2 vs Su-35S. Flankers Comparisons

    Post  indochina on Wed Mar 20, 2013 5:43 pm

    So the answer end of same Su-27SM2 ​​/ 3 is a partner of the Su-30SM!this is similar to the Su-30MKI and the Su-30MKK to compete between KnAAPO and Napo for the export market!

    I do not see any difference apart from the Su-30SM with double wheels and Canard. Load of weapons and they do not have specific information, but I'm sure are in the range of 8 tons of Flanker family. Or if there is a difference, it can only be located in the avionics and radar aircraft

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    Re: Su-27SM vs Su-30SM/M2 vs Su-35S. Flankers Comparisons

    Post  indochina on Wed Mar 20, 2013 5:46 pm

    GarryB wrote:The Su-30 branch of the family is based on the Su-27UB two seat operational trainer. Anything you add to either the Su-27 or Su-30 you can add to the other.

    The Sukhoi company can name their planes anything they like, but the official names come from the Russian military and Su-27S, Su-27P indicate fighterbomber and interceptor models of the Su-27. The S model has air to air and air to ground capability while the P models were for the PVO and had no air to ground capability at all... even dumb rockets and dumb bombs.

    Electronics and IFF systems are different for frontal aviation and PVO aircraft.

    The Su-27SM was a modest upgrade that was a cheap and simple way to improve the in service Flankers from fairly basic to fairly good multi role aircraft. The Su-33 was like the original Su-27 with R-27 andR-27E capability and R-73 for air to air, while air to ground was dumb bombs and rockets, the only upgrade over the bog standard Su-27 was the introduction of the Kh-31 missile in the anti ship version. Even the Mig-29C was more sophisticated than eitehr in service Flanker as it could carry R-77s. The Russian AF didn't actually buy any R-77s for operational use, but if they did the Mig-29C was the only aircraft that could carry and use it that they had in operational numbers.

    The Su-27SM upgrades are the equivalent of the Mig-29SMT upgrades in that they were simple improvements that made the aircraft much more potent and capable at minimum costs and could be done relatively quickly... which was a good way of improving the general performance of the AF without having to wait years for new planes to be produced.

    At the end of the day the comparison between Su-27SM2 and Su-30SM is that the latter has two seats.

    So the Russians are up to 4 choices?MiG-35 vs MiG-29SMT and Su-27SM vs Su-30SM?!

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    Re: Su-27SM vs Su-30SM/M2 vs Su-35S. Flankers Comparisons

    Post  indochina on Wed Mar 20, 2013 5:48 pm

    TR1 wrote:You are confusing different variants from different plants.

    The Su-30SM is from the Irkut plant, where the Su-30MKI originates from. IT has canards and TVC.

    The Su-30MK is built at Komsomolsk, where they also build Su-35s now. The Su-30M2 is basically a domestic MK, has no carads, and no electronically scanned array.

    We don't know the exact differences from the Su-27SM2 to the Su-27SM, but it is certainly not as advanced as the Su-30SM.

    I think the Su-27SM vs Su-30SM is a local reference, comparing them is like Su-35S (to be sold to China) vs Su-30MKI

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    Re: Su-27SM vs Su-30SM/M2 vs Su-35S. Flankers Comparisons

    Post  TR1 on Wed Mar 20, 2013 8:52 pm

    indochina wrote:So the answer end of same Su-27SM2 ​​/ 3 is a partner of the Su-30SM!this is similar to the Su-30MKI and the Su-30MKK to compete between KnAAPO and Napo for the export market!

    I do not see any difference apart from the Su-30SM with double wheels and Canard. Load of weapons and they do not have specific information, but I'm sure are in the range of 8 tons of Flanker family. Or if there is a difference, it can only be located in the avionics and radar aircraft

    The Su-27SM and SM3 are Knaapo products.
    They don't have PESA, or a lot of the goodies Su-30SM has. They do however have uprated engines, something the Su-30SM has yet to get.
    The SM is an upgrade, and the only reason the RuAF got the 12 SM3s (and 4 Su-30M2) was that Knaapo had some unfinished airframes lying around.

    The Su-30SM is a domestic MKI, made by Irkut.
    It has TVC (Su-27SM/SM3 do not), it has a more modern cockpit and avionics, etc etc.

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    Re: Su-27SM vs Su-30SM/M2 vs Su-35S. Flankers Comparisons

    Post  TR1 on Wed Mar 20, 2013 8:54 pm

    indochina wrote:
    GarryB wrote:The Su-30 branch of the family is based on the Su-27UB two seat operational trainer. Anything you add to either the Su-27 or Su-30 you can add to the other.

    The Sukhoi company can name their planes anything they like, but the official names come from the Russian military and Su-27S, Su-27P indicate fighterbomber and interceptor models of the Su-27. The S model has air to air and air to ground capability while the P models were for the PVO and had no air to ground capability at all... even dumb rockets and dumb bombs.

    Electronics and IFF systems are different for frontal aviation and PVO aircraft.

    The Su-27SM was a modest upgrade that was a cheap and simple way to improve the in service Flankers from fairly basic to fairly good multi role aircraft. The Su-33 was like the original Su-27 with R-27 andR-27E capability and R-73 for air to air, while air to ground was dumb bombs and rockets, the only upgrade over the bog standard Su-27 was the introduction of the Kh-31 missile in the anti ship version. Even the Mig-29C was more sophisticated than eitehr in service Flanker as it could carry R-77s. The Russian AF didn't actually buy any R-77s for operational use, but if they did the Mig-29C was the only aircraft that could carry and use it that they had in operational numbers.

    The Su-27SM upgrades are the equivalent of the Mig-29SMT upgrades in that they were simple improvements that made the aircraft much more potent and capable at minimum costs and could be done relatively quickly... which was a good way of improving the general performance of the AF without having to wait years for new planes to be produced.

    At the end of the day the comparison between Su-27SM2 and Su-30SM is that the latter has two seats.

    So the Russians are up to 4 choices?MiG-35 vs MiG-29SMT and Su-27SM vs Su-30SM?!

    MiG-29SMT was only bought because of the Algerian mess.
    Su-27SM was an upgrade/leftover buy.

    The truly new deals are still varied though.
    Su-30SM from Irkut.
    Su-35S from Knaapo.
    Su-34 from NAPO.
    Yak-130 is also being bought from Irkut, though the first batches were built @ Sokol.
    I don't remember off the top of my head where the MIG-29Ks, or potentially the MiG-35 will be built; MiG has several associated plants.

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    Re: Su-27SM vs Su-30SM/M2 vs Su-35S. Flankers Comparisons

    Post  GarryB on Wed Mar 20, 2013 11:01 pm

    So the Russians are up to 4 choices?MiG-35 vs MiG-29SMT and Su-27SM vs Su-30SM?!

    No.

    There are new planes: PAK FA is number one, but expensive and certainly wont be produced in the numbers needed to be their one and only fighter as there are hundreds of Mig-31s, Su-27s and Mig-29s that are going to need replacing over the next two decades.

    The Mig-35 is going to be bought... whether they buy just under 50 or just under 100 or more probably depends on its performance and costs... if they buy less then in the short term an SMT upgrade is a cheap way to keep some Mig-29s in service while a solution is reached. A longer term solution is the Mig-29M2 which is an almost Mig-35.

    The Su-35 is also going to be purchased, but to keep the Air Force going they will upgrade existing Su-27s to SMx standard to make up the numbers. By 2020 most of the original Mig-29s and Su-27s and many of the Mig-31s will have to be retired so the Su-30SM and Su-27SMx and any Mig-29s they might upgrade are just gap fillers... by then the old planes will be too expensive to maintain and the new aircraft will be cheaper to produce and even the numbers planes will start to be replaced by the new aircraft... and unmanned aircraft no doubt.

    I think the Su-27SM vs Su-30SM is a local reference, comparing them is like Su-35S (to be sold to China) vs Su-30MKI

    SM are commonly used to indicate upgraded models... there was even a Mig-21SM and indeed Mig-21SMT. As I said above the Su-27SM was a modest upgrade to give standard Su-27s multirole capability and compatibility with new missiles like R-77 and Kh-31 etc.

    Just like the Mig-29SMT upgrade there are as many choices as you like from a very basic upgrade to a complete change of pretty much everything... the latter not a hugely popular option simply because a new aircraft would work out cheaper in the long run in terms of airframe life etc.

    MiG-29SMT was only bought because of the Algerian mess.

    Of course, the Air Force is not hugely interested in multi role Mig-29s as Mig-29 units are not generally engaged in air to ground missions so the extra capability is largely wasted... especially during the 1990s and 2000s as the sophisticated weapons needed were not purchased anyway.

    In the next 10 years however the Mig-29s in service will need to be retired and I rather doubt new build production will keep up so now that they have them in service I suspect an upgrade of a few of the low hours airframes might keep flying numbers up as a stopgap measure... much the same as the Su-30SM can provide for Flanker units... no evidence... just my opinion.

    Su-27SM was an upgrade/leftover buy.

    It was an upgrade Sukhoi developed as a cheaper option, because some export partners can't or don't want to afford an Su-30MKI/MKK, but still want the range and performance of a Flanker... and that included the Russian AF during the early 2000s. It was a significant step up from a bog standard Su-27, yet was not as expensive as an Su-30MKI and of course it could be applied to single seat Su-27s already in service rather than require new builds... which is only relevant to the Russian AF.



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    J-11B vs Su-27SM

    Post  indochina on Tue Apr 09, 2013 1:12 pm

    I think these are the two branches of the Flanker family produced by Russia and China can be compared with each other

    Su-27SM vs J-11B

    Su-27SM (Flanker-B Mod. 1) : Mid-life upgraded Russian Su-27S, featuring technology evaluated in the Su-27M demonstrators.

    J-11B - An indigenised multirole fighter using a Flanker type airframe and advanced Chinese avionics, weaponry and technologies, reduced RCS, MAWS, IRST, radar AESA, and composites to lighten the airframe weight by 700 kg. It has been said that the J-11B is over 90% indigenous.

    Su-27SM2 vs J-11BS/BH

    Su-27SM2 was supposed to be the full up conversions with Su-35 avionics including Irbis radar, '14000' kg engines.

    J-11BS - A tandem twin seat version of the J-11B under development, initially developed to serve as a combat-capable training aircraft for J-11B pilots

    J-11BH - Naval version of the J-11B, which was first sighted in May 2010.

    Su-27SM3 vs J-16

    Su-27SM3 is a new multi-purpose fighter parked on the chassis of Su-27s and Su-35S electronic weaponry. This type is equivalent to Su-35S combat features except air refueling.

    J-16 A strike variant of the J-11BS with longer range and upgraded avionics, the concept is similar to F-15E fighter/bomber. According to media reports, this fighter is based on Russian Sukhoi Su-30MKK that was sold to China in 2000. It is equipped with missile pylons for Chinese PL-8 air-to-air missiles, another difference comparing earlier J-11 variants, and its dual-seat layout is certainly different from any single seat Shenyang-manufactured Su-27 variants.

    Click here for vote http://azatvs.com/su-27-or-j-11-369760 Laughing

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    Why Irkutsk never presented a single seat variant of Su-30MKI?

    Post  sepheronx on Mon Jul 08, 2013 7:54 am

    There was a period (and by the sounds of Su-35S sale to RuAF), that single seater jets are still important. Well, two seater makes sense for an advanced multiroll aircraft or interceptor but for an air superiority fighter like the Su-30MKI is, I can see that roll still being done effectively and efficiently without the need of the second seater. Why has Irkutsk not offered a single seater? They could easily turn the second seat into an avionics package to fill its space, the jet could be very successful and could have maybe been bought and used instead of Su-35S from KnAAPO. Su-35S is advanced and all, but it seems that Su-30 series have much better turn out rate in the international market than the Su-35S and with the more investments that Irkutsk seems to get, especially with both sales of Su-30MKI and variants, as well as Yak-130, they could pull resources to push even further development of it. As well, seeing as how Irkutsk is pushing for a further development of Su-30MKI into Super Sukhoi which is supposed to field an AESA radar and have further sensor fusions, as well as reduce RCS significantly. Those alone, could be suitable for an advanced variant of Su-30SM and would prove maybe just as good if not better than Su-35S as it would have newer technology and fund these industries as well as push for newer technology. Yes, I understand that the Irbis-E PESA radar holds a lot of advance technology to be close to comparable to the AESA technologies out their, but still, this drive would be very important and could possibly be even a larger boost to Su-30 sales as other countries who are obviously sold on the concept of newer technologies, could very well be interested in having an advanced Su-30 with 5th gen technologies.

    What I am getting at is, if they had a single seater variant, Russia would have possibly ordered more of this variant than the 60. As there would be even more money in Irkutsk and potential for even more in terms of upgrades and new orders, they would be enticed to create new technologies and or upgrade it further with current technologies and it would already be fielded rather than awaiting other countries to cooperate (India as an example), and with the new technologies already being fielded, it would entice other countries to buy. Su-35S sounds like a great jet and all, but it is becoming a failure in the international market, thus even with limited sales to Russian MoD, it will continue to be expensive, as well as spare parts for it.

    Oh, and a single seater variant would also be a great sale to countries whom may not be interested in a dual seater.

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    Re: Su-27SM vs Su-30SM/M2 vs Su-35S. Flankers Comparisons

    Post  TR1 on Mon Jul 08, 2013 8:10 am

    Because Irkut produced the Su-27UB, and has never made a single seat Su-27. That simple.

    http://www.irkut.com/en/corporation/iaz/history/

    Su-35 is a failure in the export market simply because of previous Flanker success. If Irkut rolled out a single seat Su-27, it would do no better today, maybe a few small sales.
    RuAF is getting all the single seat Flanker it needs from KNAAZ. If they want AESA, this decade there will be a set produced by NIIP and used by KNAAZ to make T-50s. Su-35 adaptation certainly possible, but to be frank, given what an excellent set Irbis is, there are far bigger priorities in the RuAF.

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    Re: Su-27SM vs Su-30SM/M2 vs Su-35S. Flankers Comparisons

    Post  sepheronx on Mon Jul 08, 2013 9:39 am

    I would say that Irbis is a great radar in the sense that its long detection and tracking range.  But it has less in terms of the amount of targets it can track at once, as well, as being some hybrid ESA, there is very little info regarding its capabilities in LPI and EW/ECM/ECCM capabilities.

    Having a two seater to one seater from what I heard was not very hard and is far from impossible for Irkutsk.  They can convert one of the seats into a avionics system.  I remember reading about this about the Su-25 for Russia (Since they made dual seaters and Georgia made single seaters).  I think there was other aircrafts that were given the option.

    It was a question and I thought it may have been interesting to say the least.

    Kinda hard to say that Su-35 is a failure because of previous Flanker success no? Because if it is better than previous flankers, then it should sell better than these previous flankers. It is a great fighter imo, but it just seems odd about its failure in the international market. Yet, Su-30 still sells quite well, even with its lack capabilities compared to Su-35. Seems odd, since it is supposed to be the better plane.

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    Re: Su-27SM vs Su-30SM/M2 vs Su-35S. Flankers Comparisons

    Post  TR1 on Mon Jul 08, 2013 9:49 am

    Irbis also has excellent scanning angles due to both mechanical and electronic scanning. Is 30 target tracking and 8 simultaneous attack capability inadequate or something?
    Most of its characteristics past that not publicly available, but I see no reason to assume it lags. PAK-FA is well into testing, if the radar is found to be such a leap, they can always move towards equipping Irbis with AESA front end.

    Of course it is feasible Irkut could have converted to single seat production, but let me remind you the state of things in the 90s. Nobody had time or funds to change the tooling and production line, they had hard enough time modernizing Su-30 and producing it in time. Add to that conflict with Sukohi and KNAAPO....it would not have been easy, nor useful at all. Su-30 family was the logical path for export.

    Converting a two seater into a one seater without changing airframe is stupid and nobody would buy it, as you would be paying the costs of a two-seat airframe without the only reason to even go that way.
    The Su-25T that you mentioned had a very rough time in trials, and it was specifically docked for having crappier flight characteristics than the Su-25.
    MiG-35/29K today has the same airframe for dual seaters and single, but that is a new airframe designed with that in mind. The Su-27UB was not.

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    Re: Su-27SM vs Su-30SM/M2 vs Su-35S. Flankers Comparisons

    Post  GarryB on Mon Jul 08, 2013 10:37 am

    Actually converting a two seater into a one seater is not silly... the Mig-29M2 is a two seater in its single and dual seat models and there are benefits to both aircraft sharing basically the same airframe and structure and design.

    The real issue is... with export Su-27SMs available and export Su-35s becoming available... what is the point of a single seat Su-30?

    Having two seats does not mean you always have to have two crew.

    It could be its own trainer.

    The Russian Military certainly seem to be buying the Su-30s as trainers and for other missions where two crew would be useful as there is no two seat Su-35.

    The new 5th gen avionics however are supposed to dramatically reduce pilot workload and make a two man crew unnecessary.


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    Re: Su-27SM vs Su-30SM/M2 vs Su-35S. Flankers Comparisons

    Post  Viktor on Mon Jul 08, 2013 12:06 pm

    IRBIS has:

    - more detection range than any other radar in the world
    - much better search angels than any other radar in the world

    dont know why is all the fuss about. Eventually IRBIS will be replaceable with AESA.

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    Re: Su-27SM vs Su-30SM/M2 vs Su-35S. Flankers Comparisons

    Post  a89 on Mon Jul 08, 2013 1:59 pm

    IRBIS has:

    - more detection range than any other radar in the world
    - much better search angels than any other radar in the world

    What is this based on?

    Of course it is feasible Irkut could have converted to single seat production, but let me remind you the state of things in the 90s. Nobody had time or funds to change the tooling and production line, they had hard enough time modernizing Su-30 and producing it in time. Add to that conflict with Sukohi and KNAAPO....it would not have been easy, nor useful at all. Su-30 family was the logical path for export.

    I remember reading a while ago that KnAAPO and and IAPO had a non written agreement. The former would produce the single seater variants and the latter the two seaters. This was broken when KnAAPO signed a contract with China for Su-30MK.

    Kinda hard to say that Su-35 is a failure because of previous Flanker success no? Because if it is better than previous flankers, then it should sell better than these previous flankers. It is a great fighter imo, but it just seems odd about its failure in the international market. Yet, Su-30 still sells quite well, even with its lack capabilities compared to Su-35. Seems odd, since it is supposed to be the better plane.

    Circumstances are different. Major clients that could be interested already operate Su-30. The logical thing to do would be to upgrade these and not acquire Su-35.

    The Russian Military certainly seem to be buying the Su-30s as trainers and for other missions where two crew would be useful as there is no two seat Su-35.

    The advantage of buying of Su-30MKI versions is that they have beel built in large quantities, thus price is lower.

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    Re: Su-27SM vs Su-30SM/M2 vs Su-35S. Flankers Comparisons

    Post  sepheronx on Tue Jul 09, 2013 12:57 am

    It is no secret that Irbis has a 350-400km track range against a tanker sized aircraft and around 300+ km for a fighter sized aircraft, making it have significantly large track range compared to any other fighter based radar (I read that APG-79 had something like 200+ km track range for fighter sized targets).  But in order to have such a large track range, it produces a lot of power output, which can be spotted quite early by enemy aircraft sensors.  Maybe quicker than the Irbis radar would be able to spot it, as with most of these jets with such sensors, have LO RCS.

    It would have been interesting to see Irkutsk offer Russia a comparable jet to the Su-35S for less, as the airframe already used in high production would allow costs to be down for production, so Russia could have afforded to purchase more of these jets in order to keep numbers up and have a good work around until PAK FA comes in numbers.

    Like guy above me said, due to Su-30 being already in numbers, it is cheaper to upgrade them than purchase Su-35. As well, newer Su-30's would be cheaper than Su-35 and upgrading them to newer standard with newer radar would probably be equally cheaper and just as good.

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    Re: Su-27SM vs Su-30SM/M2 vs Su-35S. Flankers Comparisons

    Post  TR1 on Tue Jul 09, 2013 1:10 am

    If Irkut made a single seat Su-30, it would NOT have cost less, since they would have needed to make a new production line, new tooling, a whole new testing and trials period, etc etc, entirely defeating the purpose.
    Buying Su-30SM can be defended, but a single seat Irkut Flanker is counterproductive.


    Irkut is phasing out Flanker production by the end of the decade in any case, making a new airframe does not make sense.

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