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    Can be designed an AD system to destroy meteorites?

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    Can a Air Defense system be designed to destroy incoming meteorites ?

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    Sujoy
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    Can be designed an AD system to destroy meteorites?

    Post  Sujoy on Fri Feb 15, 2013 10:34 am

    Earlier today Russia’s Urals region has been rocked by a meteorite explosion in the stratosphere. The impact wave damaged several buildings, and blew out thousands of windows amid frigid winter weather. Hundreds are seeking medical attention for minor injuries.


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    Re: Can be designed an AD system to destroy meteorites?

    Post  flamming_python on Fri Feb 15, 2013 1:29 pm

    AFAIK Russia had started work on an anti-asteroid/meteorite system, or rather the R&D for such a system, that should in theory be capable of intercepting threats from outer space. Reports about the necessity of such capabilities and statements from various government ministries (chiefly the Russian space agency) have been occasionally surfacing for the past few years; along with calls for international co-operation & investment, etc...

    Here is an example (http://en.rian.ru/science/20100624/159552578.html)

    At the same time I'd suspect that such a goal would also serve as a cover for further development of ABM and anti-sat technology - although with the American ABM plans in mind I hardly think Russia would need a cover story anyway.

    I'd imagine this discussion to roar up again in Russia in the coming weeks. We. Must. Close. The Meteorite gap!

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    Re: Can be designed an AD system to destroy meteorites?

    Post  Sujoy on Fri Feb 15, 2013 2:08 pm

    flamming_python wrote:I'd imagine this discussion to roar up again in Russia in the coming weeks. We. Must. Close. The Meteorite gap!

    From what I am watching on RT I can safely say that the images are extremely disturbing . One of the metorites fell on a school ( pic below ) .

    The meteorites were travelling at the (approx) speed of 108,000 km/hr so there is no interceptor available anywhere in the world that can intercept such a meteorite.


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    Re: Can be designed an AD system to destroy meteorites?

    Post  Viktor on Fri Feb 15, 2013 2:59 pm

    Military denied they shoot at anything.


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    Re: Can be designed an AD system to destroy meteorites?

    Post  Werewolf on Fri Feb 15, 2013 4:00 pm

    A quick interception of Meteorites is impossible with such speeds but with enough information and surveillance of space they could be launched to a location outer space where the factors of unaerodynamic surface of meteorite and the followed drag at the atmosphere wouldn't effect its trajectory, anyway for the near future it's impossible but in theory i guess it's possible.

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    Re: Can be designed an AD system to destroy meteorites?

    Post  AlfaT8 on Fri Feb 15, 2013 4:01 pm

    Holy crap!!! Shocked Shocked

    Where was the military??? attack

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    Re: Can be designed an AD system to destroy meteorites?

    Post  Sujoy on Fri Feb 15, 2013 4:59 pm

    A good question to ask is how did scientists , astronomers the world over fail so miserably to calculate the trajectory and therefore point of impact of the meteorites ?

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    Re: Can be designed an AD system to destroy meteorites?

    Post  ricky123 on Fri Feb 15, 2013 7:50 pm

    Sujoy wrote:A good question to ask is how did scientists , astronomers the world over fail so miserably to calculate the trajectory and therefore point of impact of the meteorites ?
    the thing is nasa dont even look at those things ..atleast that is what they r saying ... there is another meteor coming to earth and it was discovered by a italian dentist ..... it is supposed to miss earth by 17k miles that is closer then our satelites .

    i want to know why did russia send 20000 troops to the impact area ???? were they expecting clarkkent ??? Shocked

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    Re: Can be designed an AD system to destroy meteorites?

    Post  Werewolf on Fri Feb 15, 2013 7:52 pm

    ricky123 wrote:
    i want to know why did russia send 20000 troops to the impact area ???? were they expecting clarkkent ??? Shocked

    Where did you heared that? Or i missed something?

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    Re: Can be designed an AD system to destroy meteorites?

    Post  TR1 on Fri Feb 15, 2013 10:48 pm

    20,000 Emercom personell, not troops.

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    Re: Can be designed an AD system to destroy meteorites?

    Post  Corrosion on Sat Feb 16, 2013 12:32 am

    Surveillance of Space is almost impossible if you are talking about meteorites. Comets can be surveyed but are impossible to stop. Meteorite (Not meteorites) can be at least broken/diverted (Not stopped) into pieces (In theory) but are impossible to survey. So no way humans can do anything about extreme speed bullets from space. Only luck works here. Our atmosphere is our great friend indeed.

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    Re: Can be designed an AD system to destroy meteorites?

    Post  Werewolf on Sat Feb 16, 2013 1:33 am

    Actually the chance to get killed by a meteorite is to small that a multi billion $ programm would be worth at all.

    It's like investing in an anti-zombie apocalypse programm when the chances for this are so ridiculous small enless someone feds all people on earth with this "zombie" drug or what the heck that was, however strange comperisions i did....

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    Re: Can be designed an AD system to destroy meteorites?

    Post  ricky123 on Sat Feb 16, 2013 4:18 am

    TR1 wrote:20,000 Emercom personell, not troops.
    whats that

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    Re: Can be designed an AD system to destroy meteorites?

    Post  Sujoy on Sat Feb 16, 2013 7:07 am

    ricky123 wrote: whats that

    First responders . Medical guys , fire brigade other rescue guys .

    More than 1200 people have suffered injuries ranging from minor to major . That's why so many rescue / medical personnels are being sent .

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    Re: Can be designed an AD system to destroy meteorites?

    Post  GarryB on Sat Feb 16, 2013 8:19 am

    The main problem of interception is that the target is likely a solid lump of something. If the target is the size of a mountain imagine dropping bombs on that mountain... the whole mountain isn't destroyed... you just make small craters. In fact if, by some miracle you manage to split the incoming rock then you might find the new trajectories result in two targets on the ground being hit instead of one. Breaking up an incoming threat can just spread the damage rather than actually protect someone.


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    Re: Can be designed an AD system to destroy meteorites?

    Post  flamming_python on Sat Feb 16, 2013 1:46 pm

    GarryB wrote:The main problem of interception is that the target is likely a solid lump of something. If the target is the size of a mountain imagine dropping bombs on that mountain... the whole mountain isn't destroyed... you just make small craters. In fact if, by some miracle you manage to split the incoming rock then you might find the new trajectories result in two targets on the ground being hit instead of one. Breaking up an incoming threat can just spread the damage rather than actually protect someone.

    If you can break up a big target into 2 or more pieces in outer space; then true that there would be more trajectories/targets and that could, to an atmosphereless planet; do damage over a wider area.

    But if its coming to Earth; breaking up a meteorite into multiple pieces would give the atmosphere a lot more surface area to react with, and individual smaller volumes that can be completely burnt up before they hit Earth

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    Re: Can be designed an AD system to destroy meteorites?

    Post  Sujoy on Sat Feb 16, 2013 5:21 pm

    NASA scientists :

    The meteor that streaked across the skies over Russia in a blinding fireball on Friday exploded with a force about 30 times greater than the Hiroshima bomb

    Nasa estimated that the energy released by the meteor's impact with the atmosphere was 500 kilotonnes, around 30 times the force of the nuclear bomb dropped on Hiroshima in 1945. It entered the atmosphere and broke up at an altitude of around 32 miles, causing a shockwave that blew out windows and set of car alarms in Chelyabinsk two and a half minutes later.

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    Re: Can be designed an AD system to destroy meteorites?

    Post  AlfaT8 on Sat Feb 16, 2013 8:01 pm

    Sujoy wrote:NASA scientists :

    The meteor that streaked across the skies over Russia in a blinding fireball on Friday exploded with a force about 30 times greater than the Hiroshima bomb

    Nasa estimated that the energy released by the meteor's impact with the atmosphere was 500 kilotonnes, around 30 times the force of the nuclear bomb dropped on Hiroshima in 1945. It entered the atmosphere and broke up at an altitude of around 32 miles, causing a shockwave that blew out windows and set of car alarms in Chelyabinsk two and a half minutes later.

    Damn, Wasn't there anything they could have done. dunno

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    Re: Can be designed an AD system to destroy meteorites?

    Post  GarryB on Sun Feb 17, 2013 9:37 am

    But if its coming to Earth; breaking up a meteorite into multiple pieces would give the atmosphere a lot more surface area to react with, and individual smaller volumes that can be completely burnt up before they hit Earth

    The danger is not a warhead, the danger is mass, so by definition a target worth engaging is too heavy to have much effect upon.

    Travelling at 20km per second or more the material is in the earths atmosphere for less than 3 seconds, which is not very long to heat it.

    Think of trying to destroy a frozen turkey by putting it in a microwave for 3 seconds, or directing a blow torch at it for 3 seconds... the outer layers will be scorched but it will otherwise be largely unaffected.

    Using explosives would be pointless and using nuclear warheads is not actually as effective as one might think.

    The actual crater from a direct hit will be minimal as the amount of material vapourised would not be that significant.

    Nuclear weapons would not be very effective hitting the surface of a large rock and likely could not be made hard enough to penetrate any depth because the closing speed would obliterate the missile warhead.

    The heat generated by the nuclear warhead would be the main effect and as such would be fairly useless. Inside the atmosphere a nuclear warhead is very powerful because it has an atmosphere to push around to create a blast wave and air to superheat etc etc, but in space it would just heat up things to very high temperatures but there is no blast wave.

    The result of a nuclear strike on an asteroid would be a slightly heated radioactive rock that will hit the earth anyway.

    Damn, Wasn't there anything they could have done.

    Early detection is 1000 times more valuable than developing missiles to hit incoming threats.


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    Re: Can be designed an AD system to destroy meteorites?

    Post  Cyberspec on Sun Feb 17, 2013 10:52 am

    GarryB wrote:Early detection is 1000 times more valuable than developing missiles to hit incoming threats.

    According to a discussion on another forum, in order to be able to give a 30 minute warning to the population for this meteorite, they would've had to detect it at a distance of approx. 70 000 km

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    Re: Can be designed an AD system to destroy meteorites?

    Post  Sujoy on Sun Feb 17, 2013 11:46 am

    GarryB wrote:Early detection is 1000 times more valuable than developing missiles to hit incoming threats.

    Detection is one part of the equation . The other part is to hit it . More importantly in this case the meteors were detected , where they fell short was in calculating the trajectory .

    Regarding mountains . A number of mountains have been blown the world over to make way for roads and other infrastructure projects . So in essence mountains can be destroyed . The question is how do you destroy a mountain that's travelling at 30km/sec ? The movie Armageddon did provide a method whereby astronauts are send into outer space and they land on these meteorites , plant explosives and subsequently blow them .

    However , the problem still remains that of speed . How do you land on such a fast moving object ? This is where the rubber meets the road .


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    Re: Can be designed an AD system to destroy meteorites?

    Post  GarryB on Mon Feb 18, 2013 9:44 am

    Detection is one part of the equation .

    EARLY detection is everything because last minute interceptions are Hollywood BS.

    An object suddenly appears the main problems are what is it made of... if it is a rock pile then no amount of explosive can deal with it... and like I said... the problem is mass... it doesn't matter if the incoming object is solid granite or chocolate Blancmange. xxx tons is xxx tons and the energy conversion is generally 1 for 1 in TNT.

    Often an air burst will actually be more devastating than an impact, but an impact in the sea could be very catastrophic too.

    Regarding mountains . A number of mountains have been blown the world over to make way for roads and other infrastructure projects .

    They certainly have, but they took millions of sticks of dynamite, years of planning, and very specific and carefully planned explosions in the correct order to do it... the idea that you would have time with an object detected hours before impact is silly... even with Bruce Willis on call.

    [quote]So in essence mountains can be destroyed .
    }

    Like saying I can jump over a rock therefore I should be able to jump over the continent of the USA.

    The mountains are not destroyed... they are dismantled and moved...

    [quote]However , the problem still remains that of speed . How do you land on such a fast moving object ? This is where the rubber meets the road .

    Landing on an object moving at enormous speed is easy... we already did that when we landed probes on the Moon, and Mars, and Venus etc etc.

    Explosives are not predictable enough... with different shapes and structures you might end up changing the impact trajectory of the object so that instead of hitting the middle of the Pacific it hits London.

    Detected early enough we could simply send a small robot to land on it and to drill down into the rock and to throw material off the rock on a regular basis in the same direction to change its trajectory and send it into Jupiter or our moon or the sun. The energy required is much much less and it is much more predictable... the only problem is that you need years worth of warning... even weeks is not good enough because your interceptor has to go out and come back following its orbit and land on it... it is taking about 2 years to get to Mars in comparison.


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    Re: Can be designed an AD system to destroy meteorites?

    Post  Sujoy on Tue Feb 19, 2013 7:28 am

    Russia to create meteor defence shield - Anatoly Zaitsev, director - Planetary Defence Centre

    The Russian Planetary Defence Centre will need a maximum of 7 years to create a system that would protect the Earth against meteors and other space debris. At present, scientists have 24 scenarios to save the planet from Near-Earth Objects. In addition to technology, people should be prepared for meteor disasters as well.

    A global set of meteor defence measures includes more than 20 variants of dealing with meteoroids, comets and other space objects that pose a potential threat to the Earth. Russia’s space expertsand emergency workers believe that a system that guarantees people protection against meteor impacts should be dealt with first, particularly following the meteor strike of several days ago when radars were powerless to help. A whole network of shelters and bunkers should be built to secure protection against meteorites. In addition, a number of satellites will be sent to orbit in the next few years to track dangerous objects flying by.

    A Voice of Russia correspondent met Anatoly Zaitsev, director of the Planetary Defence Centre, who expressed the following views: “The satellites should be provided with telescopes. Flying debris cannot always be detected from the Earth because astronomers can observe only the dark sideof the sky from the Earth. Reconnaissance satellites are also needed to explore the nature of the debris. These ‘scout rockets’, which will follow the shortest trajectories, will provide data needed to organize the launch of interceptor rockets. The objects that pose a danger to the Earth should be pushed off their trajectories or destroyed.”

    The Russian-proposed meteor defence system makes it possible to protect the Earth against meteors with a radius of 10 metres, like the one that hit Chelyabinsk, to 100 metres. 100-metre asteroids make up the lion’s share of asteroids orbiting the Earth.

    A Chelyabinsk school teacher saved her class from the meteor impact by ordering them to take coverunder their desks. The shockwave from the meteor strike smashed all windows in the classroom. The teacher, Yulia Karbysheva, sustained numerous cuts but her children escaped unharmed. Eventhough she had no idea that the fireball they suddenly saw outside was a meteor, Karbysheva knew how to act in case of an explosion. All teachers are trained to act in this way, the school’s deputy director Oksana Cheryomina says. “The teacher must have remembered what she was supposed to do in case of emergency and did it. She must have attended all relevant trainings. On top of that, she demonstrated personal courage.”

    Experts who examined the debris left by the Chelyabinsk meteorite have come to the conclusion that it won’t affect the environment or people’s health, Dmitry Penemanskiy of the Ural FederalUniversity, says. “A chemical test of the recovered debris revealed the presence of meteoritic matter. A search group consisting of university staff has left for Chebarkul again in the hope offinding more fragments. Judging by the fragments recovered so far, the meteorite that crashed in a lake near Chelyabinsk was a chondrite. It poses no threat to the environment or human life but is of great scientific interest.”

    While scientists are busy studying the meteor debris, locals are after fragments of extraterrestrial stones as well. Pieces of the meteorite have been offered for sale on the Internet. Some cost as much as $15,000.
    Source : Voice Of Russia

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    Re: Can be designed an AD system to destroy meteorites?

    Post  flamming_python on Tue Feb 19, 2013 11:29 am

    Sujoy wrote:Russia to create meteor defence shield - Anatoly Zaitsev, director - Planetary Defence Centre

    The Russian Planetary Defence Centre will need a maximum of 7 years to create a system that would protect the Earth against meteors and other space debris. At present, scientists have 24 scenarios to save the planet from Near-Earth Objects. In addition to technology, people should be prepared for meteor disasters as well.

    A global set of meteor defence measures includes more than 20 variants of dealing with meteoroids, comets and other space objects that pose a potential threat to the Earth. Russia’s space expertsand emergency workers believe that a system that guarantees people protection against meteor impacts should be dealt with first, particularly following the meteor strike of several days ago when radars were powerless to help. A whole network of shelters and bunkers should be built to secure protection against meteorites. In addition, a number of satellites will be sent to orbit in the next few years to track dangerous objects flying by.

    A Voice of Russia correspondent met Anatoly Zaitsev, director of the Planetary Defence Centre, who expressed the following views: “The satellites should be provided with telescopes. Flying debris cannot always be detected from the Earth because astronomers can observe only the dark sideof the sky from the Earth. Reconnaissance satellites are also needed to explore the nature of the debris. These ‘scout rockets’, which will follow the shortest trajectories, will provide data needed to organize the launch of interceptor rockets. The objects that pose a danger to the Earth should be pushed off their trajectories or destroyed.”

    The Russian-proposed meteor defence system makes it possible to protect the Earth against meteors with a radius of 10 metres, like the one that hit Chelyabinsk, to 100 metres. 100-metre asteroids make up the lion’s share of asteroids orbiting the Earth.

    A Chelyabinsk school teacher saved her class from the meteor impact by ordering them to take coverunder their desks. The shockwave from the meteor strike smashed all windows in the classroom. The teacher, Yulia Karbysheva, sustained numerous cuts but her children escaped unharmed. Eventhough she had no idea that the fireball they suddenly saw outside was a meteor, Karbysheva knew how to act in case of an explosion. All teachers are trained to act in this way, the school’s deputy director Oksana Cheryomina says. “The teacher must have remembered what she was supposed to do in case of emergency and did it. She must have attended all relevant trainings. On top of that, she demonstrated personal courage.”

    Experts who examined the debris left by the Chelyabinsk meteorite have come to the conclusion that it won’t affect the environment or people’s health, Dmitry Penemanskiy of the Ural FederalUniversity, says. “A chemical test of the recovered debris revealed the presence of meteoritic matter. A search group consisting of university staff has left for Chebarkul again in the hope offinding more fragments. Judging by the fragments recovered so far, the meteorite that crashed in a lake near Chelyabinsk was a chondrite. It poses no threat to the environment or human life but is of great scientific interest.”

    While scientists are busy studying the meteor debris, locals are after fragments of extraterrestrial stones as well. Pieces of the meteorite have been offered for sale on the Internet. Some cost as much as $15,000.
    Source : Voice Of Russia

    You know, I always dislike the reports which insist on the phrase 'need a maximum of', as opposed to 'need a minimum of'.
    Because they are always BS and wishful thinking
    Thankfully they're rare, just like meteorites


    Last edited by flamming_python on Tue Feb 19, 2013 11:59 am; edited 1 time in total

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    Re: Can be designed an AD system to destroy meteorites?

    Post  flamming_python on Tue Feb 19, 2013 11:48 am

    GarryB wrote:
    But if its coming to Earth; breaking up a meteorite into multiple pieces would give the atmosphere a lot more surface area to react with, and individual smaller volumes that can be completely burnt up before they hit Earth

    The danger is not a warhead, the danger is mass, so by definition a target worth engaging is too heavy to have much effect upon.

    Travelling at 20km per second or more the material is in the earths atmosphere for less than 3 seconds, which is not very long to heat it.

    They don't always travel at such high speeds. The rock which wiped out the dinosaurs traveled at a mere 4km/sec although I may be getting confused.

    Of course an asteroid/meteroid travelling at higher speeds will have less time to react with the atmosphere, although this would also depend on the angle it approached at (the one which hit Chelyabinsk was at a fairly shallow angle)

    We do have Einstein to thank though for relating energy, mass and velocity. The characteristics we're interested here in are energy and velocity. The higher the speed at which the rock hits the atmosphere, the more energy is released by into into the surrounding atmosphere; hence the larger and hotter its enveloping ball of plasma would be and thus its effectiveness at reacting with the asteroid.
    Still it's not a 1:1 relation unfortunately; a rock that moves slower will still end up more burnt up than one that moves faster; which will pass through with far less damage.

    Point is though; is that the atmosphere can guarantee protection against rocks of up to a certain size; the limit of this size lessening, the faster and steeper that an incoming object is approaching. Thus even a 20km/sec asteroid can be completely burnt up before it hits the ground, if its small enough... or its broken down into small enough chunks.

    Nuclear weapons would not be very effective hitting the surface of a large rock and likely could not be made hard enough to penetrate any depth because the closing speed would obliterate the missile warhead.

    The heat generated by the nuclear warhead would be the main effect and as such would be fairly useless. Inside the atmosphere a nuclear warhead is very powerful because it has an atmosphere to push around to create a blast wave and air to superheat etc etc, but in space it would just heat up things to very high temperatures but there is no blast wave.

    The result of a nuclear strike on an asteroid would be a slightly heated radioactive rock that will hit the earth anyway.

    I think you're right about nuclear weapons not being all that effective, on secound examination I can agree now; we're pretty fked.

    The heat won't be very effective in space; there is no air or anything for the asteroid to react with. Penetration of such an object is probably unrealistic - the ICBM and asteroid could be approaching each other at 20-30km/sec and no material will withstand that carnage. A penetration from the side meanwhile would require the missile to be travelling as fast or nearly as fast as the meteoroid and have extreme levels of accuracy

    That leaves trying to kill it in the atmosphere. The shockwaves probably won't be that effective as the object is too dense and travelling too fast - it will zoom out before an airburst nuke's blast will even hit it. The only thing I can think of is to hit it with multiple high-yield warheads (10-12 from a MIRVed ICBM), all exploding simulatenously directly in front and in very close proximity to it. Repeat this a few times while its going through the atmosphere and you may score some damage; although by that stage breaking it up into pieces, even if successful, will probably only increase its danger.

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