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    3M22 Zircon / Brahmos II Hypersonic Missile

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    Azi

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    Re: 3M22 Zircon / Brahmos II Hypersonic Missile

    Post  Azi on Sun Nov 12, 2017 4:04 am

    Today heavy missile, with normal rocket propulsion, can reach easy very high speeds. Best examples are ICBM with their very fast warheads. But...but, but they have all a ballistic path, easy to detect and despite high speeds not very complicated to destroy. Ballistic means no propulsion in the mid and end phase of flying path, like a bullet of a gun.

    Zirkon is NOT a ballistic missile, it's a hypersonic cruise missile! Flying low, with course correction and around 8500 km/h. So if a big ship detects a Zirkon 100 km away it will have around 40 sec to react and 100 km is very very optimistic, because it's flying low and the missile is small with a low RCS (radar cross section). So if AD systems on enemy ships are not ready (normally it takes a few minutes to ready systems) the ship is 100 % lost! If the enemy ship is aware of the attack it will be very very hard to destroy the Zirkon. In reality an enemy ship will have serious problems to spot an incoming Zirkon attack and have enough time to react. An attack would be not carried out by simply 1 Zirkon, the enemy ship would face a few more, so no time to destroy all incoming Zirkon with Phalanx CIWS for example on Burkes.

    So in reality it would be like this...
    A russian sub can fire a Zirkon 400 km away. The enemy ship will spot the Zirkon 20 or 50 km away, giving maybe not enough time to countermeasure with AD missile. Enemy ship can use a close-in weapons system, but the speed makes it difficult to hit more than 1 missile. If a salvo of Zirkon comes in... That's really dangerous!

    By the way...Zirkon with the scramjet engine will be the basic for new russian air to air missiles, but that's music of future. Of course much smaller, Zirkon is a big missile. Like MBDA meteor missile with ramjet engine today.

    Please compare these information with the AGM-84 Harpoon with speed of 865 km/h or Tomahwak with 880 km/h. Russia has traditional very good anti ship weapons. The BrahMos has NOW a speed of ~3500 km/h and a range of 400 km, with sea skimming ability and declassifies every western anti ship missile. Advantage of western anti ship weapons is the pure number in stocks.

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    Re: 3M22 Zircon / Brahmos II Hypersonic Missile

    Post  Tingsay on Sun Nov 12, 2017 4:55 am

    Well it depends on how you define "game-changer" right?
    Do you mean just ' considerably scarier than previous missiles'? Do you mean scary enough to change your entire approach in dealing with it?
    Do you mean 1% chance of stopping it? 2%? 5, 26, 27, 28 and so on?
    A vague definition of game changer risks assuming the Zircon as a magical weapon. It is not, because nothing is.

    It's most likely just going to be a formidable missile, better than bhramos, yakhont granit etc(and these are scary missiles). You know, just like how Su-57 is better than Su-35, 30/27, mig-35 etc?

    Azi

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    Re: 3M22 Zircon / Brahmos II Hypersonic Missile

    Post  Azi on Sun Nov 12, 2017 4:57 am

    Tingsay wrote:Well it depends on how you define "game-changer" right?
    Do you mean just ' considerably scarier than previous missiles'? Do you mean scary enough to change your entire approach in dealing with it?
    Do you mean 1% chance of stopping it? 2%? 5, 26, 27, 28 and so on?
    A vague definition of game changer risks assuming the Zircon as a magical weapon. It is not, because nothing is.

    It's most likely just going to be a formidable missile, better than bhramos, yakhont granit etc(and these are scary missile). You know, just like how Su-57 is better than Su-35, 30/27, mig-35 etc.
    Exact! thumbsup
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    GarryB

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    Re: 3M22 Zircon / Brahmos II Hypersonic Missile

    Post  GarryB on Sun Nov 12, 2017 9:07 am

    Game changer in the sense that it stops being chess and starts being snakes and ladders.... with all snakes and no ladders.

    Zircon is unlikely to operate at very low altitude due to the dense air there.

    At very high altitude... ie above 30km altitude is where it will be operating.... which wont be new for the US Navy as the Kh-22M operates at 40km altitude in its high flight profile mode to evade Phoenix missiles and STANDARD SAMs.

    Having the scramjet motor burning all the way means higher energy and the ability to manouver without losing speed.

    Very simply if you consider the problems of intercepting something moving at mach 8.... means the missile covers 2.5km per second.

    Even if you detect the target very early on and have plenty of time to make interception calculations and launch your interceptors what happens if the incoming target turns 5 degrees. This would shift the interception point several kilometres almost instantly... in fact it wont be for a few seconds before you realise it has changed course and what the actual change is... in those 3-4 seconds it has moved up to 10km closer and the interception point might have moved 5km in one direction or another... that extra 5km means it might take your interceptor missiles an extra 2 seconds to turn and move that distance to intercept meaning a new intercept point needs to be recalculated and perhaps the missiles already in the air can't make the interception point at the right time... they might not be able to wait long enough for the target to get there or might not make it in time. Remember being 1 second away means a 2.5km miss... even a nuke warhead would not get you an assured kill.

    Another factor is that the kinetic force of a missile hitting the target at 2.5km/s means even if it was made of aluminium it is going to hit with the force of a freight train... in fact the best warhead would be iron chunks with a small 20kg HE bursting charge to spread them sideways on impact.... momentum blasting them through the structure of the target they hit. Add some magnesium chunks to start fires and it would be devastating.


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    rrob

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    Re: 3M22 Zircon / Brahmos II Hypersonic Missile

    Post  rrob on Sun Nov 12, 2017 9:49 am

    T


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    Azi

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    Re: 3M22 Zircon / Brahmos II Hypersonic Missile

    Post  Azi on Sun Nov 12, 2017 3:47 pm

    GarryB wrote:Zircon is unlikely to operate at very low altitude due to the dense air there.

    At very high altitude... ie above 30km altitude is where it will be operating.... which wont be new for the US Navy as the Kh-22M operates at 40km altitude in its high flight profile mode to evade Phoenix missiles and STANDARD SAMs.
    Not all the way, that's right! But BrahMos is a sea skimming cruise missile, flying at a height of 5 meters towards the target. Ok, that's only a attack option, attack from above is also possible.

    I await for the Zirkon for the last path to be like BrahMos flying at very low altitude, not the whole path because of air friction and the loose of range. I think Zirkon will have multiple attack options.

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    Re: 3M22 Zircon / Brahmos II Hypersonic Missile

    Post  Azi on Sun Nov 12, 2017 3:53 pm

    rrob wrote: They already have a low tech solution in place. Seriously I kid you not they have blimps with L88 airborne radars tethered to small fast boats positioned far ahead of the bigger ships feeding and extending radar coverage up to 370 miles further out from the edge of the formation which in itself covers a piece of ocean that is quite large not counting awacs making the surface or air approach a tough deal.  The current sm 6 missile can easily reach out 200 miles and touch something if you have a clear radar picture.  I guess you can get a sub to shoot the cheapo blimps if you can get close enough and have lots of time and ammo. They probably have a lot of spares in any case.  Please don't believe everything the pentagon shovels out and take things with a grain of salt, as they still say our nuclear subs can dive to a maximum of 300 feet and have a max speed of 13 knots and that they retired the sr71 without a replacement. Again I 'd like your opinion on a 100 g mach 10 or possibly a faster version of the sprint missile that could be used for the defense against high speed missiles like zircon?  As the sprint missile itself is about 2000 mph faster than the zircon, I would think it is possible to have a workable solution no?
    Best wishes
    About radar...

    All radar detection range data given are for a RCS of 1 sqm!!! Zirkon will have less, like BrahMos and other anti ship missile. It's more in the range of 0,1 to 0,01 sqm, so the detection range is reduced. Another question is the radar band used, longer wavelength means less accuracy, shorter means it can countered by LO (stealth) techniques. Ok, Zirkon will be very hot due to friction What a Face so stealth coating makes no sense!

    And again the difference is not only speed, the Zirkon is not a ballistic missile. A ballistic missile will loose drastic kinetic energy after a course correction. A Zirkon will maintain the same speed and the same kinetic energy after dozens of course corrections. That's the main difference between Scarmjet and ordinary rocket propulsion. A normal rocket burns the whole initial fuel in short time, you can't say stop take the rest for later (they are some exceptions, but I know none used in army stocks worldwide). That's why big rockets have sometimes many stages.

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    Re: 3M22 Zircon / Brahmos II Hypersonic Missile

    Post  rrob on Mon Nov 13, 2017 12:38 am

    A


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    Azi

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    Re: 3M22 Zircon / Brahmos II Hypersonic Missile

    Post  Azi on Mon Nov 13, 2017 2:47 am

    Zirkon will have multiple attack modes!

    It is therefore believed to be a winged cruise missile with a lift-generating center body. A booster stage with solid-fuel engines accelerates it to a supersonic speed, at which point the scramjet motor of the second stage takes over. Its range is estimated to be from 135 to 270 nautical miles at low level, and up to 400 nautical miles in a semi-ballistic trajectory.

    https://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news/defense/2017-04-25/russia-and-india-test-hypersonic-and-supersonic-missiles

    And please I don't wanna see this bullshit again, like the whole missile will heat to 6500 degree. Only at the edges, a few squaremillimeter, the heat will be high. And by the way, the problem is solved, because Zirkon is not a illusion it was tested a few times! Reentry of space shuttle or space capsules is with Mach 20 or higher, the heat shield heats up 1500 degree Celsius, don't forget.

    And that fast missiles are a problem is not my fiction!
    Travelling at a speed that can reach to between 3,800mph to 4,600mph, the missiles will be able to evade the air defence systems of the new 60,000-tonne naval carriers, HMS Queen Elizabeth and HMS Prince of Wales, which are currently under construction.

    The Royal Navy’s current Sea Ceptor missile system can only shoot down missiles travelling up to 2,300mph.
    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/royal-navy-new-queen-elizabeth-class-aircraft-carriers-not-stop-russia-zircon-missiles-hypersonic-a7651781.html

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    Re: 3M22 Zircon / Brahmos II Hypersonic Missile

    Post  rrob on Mon Nov 13, 2017 4:12 am

    S


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    Azi

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    Re: 3M22 Zircon / Brahmos II Hypersonic Missile

    Post  Azi on Mon Nov 13, 2017 9:07 am

    rrob wrote:Space shuttle does not fly in high density lower atmosphere at mach 12 it would vaporize in 3 seconds.  Not saying what the temp would be for the entire zircon missile because of variations of shape ad aspects but it has got to be outrageous.  The 6800 temp is from an actual six-second flight by a mach 10 missile. Thermodynamic laws do remain constant for both Russia and America.  Actual results would be nice to help clear the air, not rhetoric and some propaganda clips that show a missile for a few seconds.  I'm sure there is a great missile here but wild speculation and data of absolutes spouted by amateurs and fanboys that "just know" because of some posting u tube clips or worse "news organizations" not in the actual program or with no degree at least in the fields associated with if not directly involved do little to convince skeptics or provide enlightenment  
     an actual "test"
    Here.
    T2T1=(P2P1)γ−1γ
    T2T1=(P2P1)γ−1γ


    γ=75
    γ=75
    Employ the stagnation pressure expression to get:

    P2P1=P1+12ρv2P1=1+12ρv2/P1
    P2P1=P1+12ρv2P1=1+12ρv2/P1
    Put these together to get:

    T2T1=(1+12ρv2/P1)2/
    T2/T1≈(293+200)/293≈1.7T2/T1≈(293+200)/293≈1.7. I get this in the above expression by plugging in a velocity of 2000mph.
    Figure it out. then we can talk
    Please post no equations you simply don't understand! Don't copy from internet and simple post it.

    As I wrote before the temperature occurs only at surface of the edges of missile and not the whole missile. I expect for Mach 6 -7 2500 - 3000 degree Celsius. With the use of ceramics and a cooling system (standard for fast missiles!) it's no problem! And again, the Zirkon is no science fiction, it's reality and it flew with Mach 8! Like your Sprint Missile with Mach 10...it is reality.

    Here for example the temperature of a hypersonic vehicle. You can see easy that high temperatures only occurs at the edges of the object.
    https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/55/X-43A_%28Hyper_-_X%29_Mach_7_computational_fluid_dynamic_%28CFD%29.jpg/1200px-X-43A_%28Hyper_-_X%29_Mach_7_computational_fluid_dynamic_%28CFD%29.jpg

    Space Shuttle evaporates in 3 seconds is bullshit by thew way! But let's focus on hypersonic missile.
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    Re: 3M22 Zircon / Brahmos II Hypersonic Missile

    Post  GarryB on Mon Nov 13, 2017 10:03 am

    They already have a low tech solution in place. Seriously I kid you not they have blimps with L88 airborne radars tethered to small fast boats positioned far ahead of the bigger ships feeding and extending radar coverage up to 370 miles further out from the edge of the formation which in itself covers a piece of ocean that is quite large not counting awacs making the surface or air approach a tough deal.

    Good. Radars in front of the battlegroup should make it much easier to find... radar emissions go for thousands of kms and are easy to triangulate. Such an emitting system can be the first target... even just Kh-22ms with anti radiation seekers could be used to take those out.

    And the funny thing is that it is the speed that makes Zircon effective... it does not matter if it gets detected early... it is its high speed that makes it hard to intercept.

    Again I 'd like your opinion on a 100 g mach 10 or possibly a faster version of the sprint missile that could be used for the defense against high speed missiles like zircon? As the sprint missile itself is about 2000 mph faster than the zircon, I would think it is possible to have a workable solution no?

    Sprint missiles are large and very very expensive and are designed to intercept non manouvering targets that are travelling at very high speeds. You could spend a small fortune and put them on US ships I guess, but Zircon is smaller and cheaper and fits standard UKSK launch tubes.

    Sprint had a range of something like 40km and operated up to about 30km, but it flew so fast it could not use radar to detect the target it needed command guidance and an ablative nose cone to stop it burning up. It also used a nuclear warhead to destroy the target, which would have a negative effect on the radars of your fleet about to face more missiles in the attack.

    Acceleration is not really that useful in this regard... just the costs involved in such a weapon let alone its non standard size meaning it wont fit US vertical launch tubes just makes things worse rather than better.

    I await for the Zirkon for the last path to be like BrahMos flying at very low altitude, not the whole path because of air friction and the loose of range. I think Zirkon will have multiple attack options.

    Almost certainly, but I suspect high flying and diving attack will be the preferred option for best range and flight speed.

    Very few things are supersonic at low altitude.... Brahmos and Onyx and Yakhont are mach 1.8 weapons at low altitude. They only get to mach 2-2.5 when flying high profile missions.

    Remember about detection here a 400-kilometer range scramjet is not going to be flying on the deck most of the time probably only the last moments as the temp will be unreal at sea level due to the density of the air. It will be detected far away due to the height it flies, it's size temp difference it create

    The ramjet powered Onyx probably travels 400-500km to its target. The Scramjet powered Zircon probably travels twice as far on the same fuel tank by travelling twice as fast.

    A ramjet engine burns fuel at subsonic speed.. the air going into the engine has to be slowed down to subsonic speed before fuel can be added and burned and then blown out the back as thrust.

    A Scramjet burns fuel at supersonic speed so the air blasts in and is compressed and fuel is added and burned and it leaves the rear generating thrust.

    Ramjets are limited to between mach 4 and mach 5... scramjets have no speed limit.

    Zircon will be compatible with UKSK launchers.... on corvettes and all frigates and all destroyers and all cruisers and all carriers new and upgraded... and all subs and it could be put into a standard shipping container and dumped in the sea as a sea mine...

    The USA has HABIT of not broadcasting the actual performance of its equipment as said earlier.

    Really?

    After Desert Storm Abrams tanks were invincible and T-72s and T-80s were junk... even though there were no T-80s in Iraq or Kuwaite.

    I would agree the US has a habit of not telling the truth... Smile

    Space shuttle does not fly in high density lower atmosphere at mach 12 it would vaporize in 3 seconds.

    The Zircon would not fly at mach 8 at low level... probably closer to mach 3 or 4 which is unprecedented speed for that altitude.

    Zircon will of course have high and low flight profiles just like previous supersonic missiles the Soviets and Russians use, but there is a huge range and speed penalty involved in flying low to the target...

    Space shuttles clearly vapourise when part of their heat shield is removed by damage, but Zircon could easily have ablative materials near hot spots and even pump its liquid fuel through the skin surface where heating occurs to prep the fuel and to cool the surface.

    Sprint operates at less than 30km altitude where the atmosphere is thickest. Zircon will likely operate at more than 40km altitude perhaps even higher so friction wont be such an issue except during the terminal dive onto the target.


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    Re: 3M22 Zircon / Brahmos II Hypersonic Missile

    Post  rrob on Mon Nov 13, 2017 10:53 am

    Azi the equation has to do with friction in the atmosphere in relation to pressure and temp used in aerodynamic design.Please, let's try to be civil. Thank you, Gary, for posting the fact that zircon does not fly at Mach 7 in the lower atmosphere (my point), but at altitude, and that at that height ANYTHING can be visible on radar (depends on what kind and how good) from great distances also sonic turbulence heat signature generated would be substantial. It's not some magic wand that appears and attacks like a cloaked Klingon warship with no defense possible so everyone must throw up our hands and surrender or die. Reminds me of the unsinkable Titanic they use to talk about a lot before 1912. Everything has an Achilles heel, bet on it. Tracking is the hard part, killing it is relatively easy you put something in its way like every other missile or just put more of the same in front of the missile it goes away no big deal as you do not chase a missile from behind so speed not a factor except close up. Sm 6 can intercept ballistic object at a faster speed, so you throw up 25 instead of one against one that can maneuver. Not to say that this missile is worthless far from it I can see a strong reaction to this missile by other countries as it has great potential. My last post here as the subject seems too volatile, and I did not join to argue but to learn. Lastly, The space shuttle would be rubble if it was to fly mach 10 in the lower atmosphere just not possible to take those temps (6800F plus) and tremendous forces that it would be subject to, as it was designed for 3000-degree shallow reentry for short periods, in almost vacuum conditions of 300,000 ft plus please look it up.
    Best wishes to all

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    Re: 3M22 Zircon / Brahmos II Hypersonic Missile

    Post  Azi on Mon Nov 13, 2017 1:53 pm

    Ok rrob...how fast Zirkon fly in low atmosphere? Mach 0,2? You know it??? It's clear that a missile at low altitude is a bit slower, but not that too much. Mach 6-7 in low altitude seems not unrealistic. Nobody knows the data for serial produced Zirkon!!! Maybe it will be slowed down a bit, for better accuracy and reliability. Maybe it will be faster (unrealistic). It's now top secret.

    This example and equation is copied 1:1 from internet! It has more to do with thermodynamic, because it's based on thermodynamic adiabatic equation!!! You can calculate with these equation the temperature of air heated up, because of hypersonic speed, but not of solid parts. Air is a thermic insulator, for example in a 100 degree Celsius Sauna you will not boil after a minute. So it will take some time to heat parts of the missile to temperature of pressurized air. Friction still occurs and there are more than 1 type of drag. And only the edges will heat up!!! Take a look at the image in my previous post.

    And how long will Zirkon travel? Two hours or three??? Less than 5 minutes!!! And it's a one way ticket. Fire, fly and kill!

    Why are you discussing things that are already reality? Now, nearly nothing can stop or intercept a Zirkon. I never said that's impossible or in near future will be no countermeasures. But today, NOW the Zirkon missile is superior. There is still a chance today to intercept Zirkon with actual western AD systems, but the chance is very low. And don't think a SM-6 is in seconds after detecting the Zirkon in air to intercept. Even modern AD systems needs time to intercept a target, from tracking, to command, to fire, to fly...

    And again and again...Zirkon is NOT a ballistic missile!!! So it's difficult to be intercepted by AD systems for intercepting ballistic targets. Zirkon can make evasive maneuver during flight without loosing much speed.
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    Re: 3M22 Zircon / Brahmos II Hypersonic Missile

    Post  Singular_Transform on Mon Nov 13, 2017 9:16 pm

    Azi wrote:Ok rrob...how fast Zirkon fly in low atmosphere? Mach 0,2? You know it??? It's clear that a missile at low altitude is a bit slower, but not that too much. Mach 6-7 in low altitude seems not unrealistic. Nobody knows the data for serial produced Zirkon!!! Maybe it will be slowed down a bit, for better accuracy and reliability. Maybe it will be faster (unrealistic). It's now top secret.


    The required energy to keep the speed is proportional to the air density.

    The tircon fly at a height where the air density is twenty times less than on sea level.


    Means that the missile needs twenty times more power to fly at sea level.

    low chance.

    But if it dive from 20-30 km altitude then it can hit the target with hypersonic speed .

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    Re: 3M22 Zircon / Brahmos II Hypersonic Missile

    Post  Azi on Mon Nov 13, 2017 10:55 pm

    Em!? That's why it fly a bit slower at low level and range is only 1/3!

    Zirkon was tested with Mach 8, 9800 km/h according to some source. I wrote it will have multiple attack modes including flying high at 20-30 km and diving to very low level for the last path. That's the "economic" attack mode, so that the attacker can be in safe distance. Other attack mode is flying low with 1/3 to 1/4 of range and bit less speed, giving the advantage of a sneaky attack. What mode is better? I don't know!

    Speed of serial produced Zirkon? I don't know! Some sources say Mach 5-6 other Mach 7. Test was with Mach 8... Let's wait and see ^^

    Friction by the way is not 100% of energy to be spent for a missile Wink but the percentage of energy wasted by friction gets higher with density and speed^2, that's correct. No one wrote the opposite ;D

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    Re: 3M22 Zircon / Brahmos II Hypersonic Missile

    Post  rrob on Tue Nov 14, 2017 12:12 am

    F


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    Re: 3M22 Zircon / Brahmos II Hypersonic Missile

    Post  Singular_Transform on Tue Nov 14, 2017 1:08 am

    Azi wrote:Em!? That's why it fly a bit slower at low level and range is only 1/3!

    Zirkon was tested with Mach 8, 9800 km/h according to some source. I wrote it will have multiple attack modes including flying high at 20-30 km and diving to very low level for the last path. That's the "economic" attack mode, so that the attacker can be in safe distance. Other attack mode is flying low with 1/3 to 1/4 of range and bit less speed, giving the advantage of a sneaky attack. What mode is better? I don't know!

    Speed of serial produced Zirkon? I don't know! Some sources say Mach 5-6 other Mach 7. Test was with Mach 8... Let's wait and see ^^

    Friction by the way is not 100% of energy to be spent for a missile Wink but the percentage of energy wasted by friction gets higher with density and speed^2, that's correct. No one wrote the opposite ;D

    Air friction (resistance) has speed^3 relationship.

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    Re: 3M22 Zircon / Brahmos II Hypersonic Missile

    Post  Azi on Tue Nov 14, 2017 1:30 am

    Singular_Transform wrote:
    Air friction (resistance) has speed^3 relationship.
    Air resistance, the drag (English is not my native language!) has the equation:

    F = rho/2 * cw * A * v^2

    rho = density of air
    A = surface
    v = speed
    cw = drag coefficient

    The Power is P = F*v

    If you mean the Power than you are correct with v^3.

    Maybe my English was bad O.o Sorry!

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    Re: 3M22 Zircon / Brahmos II Hypersonic Missile

    Post  Azi on Tue Nov 14, 2017 2:14 am

    rrob wrote:Friction by the way is not 100% of energy to be spent for a missile Wink but the percentage of energy wasted by friction gets higher with density and speed^

    Thus the equation!  A hell of a lot of thrust is required to push a missile to Mach 5 in the thick lower atmosphere soup, no free lunches as they say temp and other requirements go up with any increases in speed. Would take some real high energy fuel just to reach those speeds let alone Mach 7 8 or 9 or whatever and to run continuously for 3 or 4 minutes is asking a lot of any material and probably a lot and I mean a lot of fuel. I posted the Sprint missile speed and temp to give you an idea what the zircon will be dealing with. The sprint had to have an ablative coating to survive that brief 8 second period as airframe reached temps of 6800 degrees even with an efficient conical shape. 6800 degrees melts or destroys just about everything known to man but who knows zircon might be cooled with circulating liquid helium but that also adds weight and bulk that is in real short supply because of fuel requirements and don't forget the scramjet engine, warhead, guidance, steering, battery, and its associated heat protection must be carried too. Zircon won't likely be able to use such an ablative coating like the sprint as it leaves a tracible trail to follow. Temperatures will be spread out a lot more because of a less efficient shape because of propulsion and flight demands Remember all the claims for this missile stealth, Mach 7, maneuverable, 400 km range unstoppable etc.    Also Azi, LOL come on, give us a break, "some source" really now!  Hey "some source,"  says there are death rays from Mars hitting the earth. But would not care to make a bet on it. Reality for some is fantasy for others Proof makes the difference. Would you believe Noth Korea has such a system just because I said  I heard a source? Unlikely right?   Don't like me for my opinion or wise a=s cracks ok, understandable desn' matter to me as I still think you are an ok well-meaning guy. But listen to some of what the other posters have to say and at least consider it  Finally, many a project has made wild claims in the past only to be disproven later. Look back at the PAK FA its first claimed speeds its currently engined model cannot even reach let alone sustain.  Why, because performance data released were based on a projected (AKA WISHFUL) engine performance that was never realized to lived up to the hype. When the first SA10 came out decades ago there was a claim in Soviet war machine book I have of a 2000 mile plus range only later to be proven false. In case some of you think I'm picking o the Russians the same thing happened to the Americans and their lousy ultra expensive patriot missile all sorts of hogwash claimed only to be disproved years later.  Might not be the case here, but forgive me for withholding my belief and acceptance until a little more is proven.
    Regards to all
    Bla, bla, bla...America is great...bla, bla.

    Believe it or not with Zirkon missile. I don't care! What you are doing is simply trolling, nothing more. I gave you some source, you gave a f**k about it, just simply bla, bla. You can discuss about the technology here, but you don't want.

    What about Su-57? It will have a better engine, than F-22! So what is about Su-57? What are you writing about? Where are your source?

    Last time! I wrote, Zirkon had a TEST with Mach 8 (source TASS 15. April 17). Serial production Zirkon will probably have Mach 5 - 6, better to handle, more economic and better for LOW altitude. And as I posted (by the way you cited nothing!) Zirkon can fly at LOW altitude, not at the speed in 30 km height but still hypersonic. It will have a hypersonic attack mode (yes it's hypersonic) with rduced range 1/3 and a bit slower, but harder to detect. Now the question what is "a little bit"? Don't ask me if you are so interested, ask please the russian designers of the Zirkon. I can't give you the exact specification data for a top secret weapon! That should be clear!? I will wait and see! And yes, I trust russian sources, like I trust us-american sources.

    Zirkon is not a Superduperwaffe! But it will be gamechanger in naval warfare, where USA complete dominates now. USA will soon have their own hypersonic cruise missiles, it's part of the "Prompt Gobal Strike" program. Are US hypersonic weapons more realistic to you?

    USA pushed in past not in hypersonic weapons, because for Saddam and Gaddafi no hypersonic weapons were needed. Dozens and hundreds of slow Tomahawk were enough. USA prepared for assymetric conflicts, against terroristic attacks in occupied countries (Iraq, Afghanistan etc).

    What piss me really off is your galactic "us-american ignorance"! You believe only USA can construct and design great things, but me as a stupid small unworthy european can say...that's wrong! And please don't come with "USA spends 1 trillion US-$ for defense, most money spend is for personnel, staff and employess. You can buy a 60 W light bulb for 1 Million Dollar, but it will not radiate brighter than my 60 W light bulb for 1 Dollar. I hope you understand.


    Last edited by Azi on Tue Nov 14, 2017 3:00 am; edited 4 times in total (Reason for editing : correction data)
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    GarryB

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    Re: 3M22 Zircon / Brahmos II Hypersonic Missile

    Post  GarryB on Tue Nov 14, 2017 4:33 am

    Lets be clear.

    Zircon is going to be both an anti ship missile and a land attack missile.

    It is jet powered... not rocket powered, so this bullshit about using 30 times more energy at low level is just that.. bullshit.

    A rocket powered missile burns fuel at the same rate whether operating at high altitude or low altitude.

    A jet powered missile can throttle back at low altitude to prevent fuel being wasted in the early part of its flight.

    Spotting the Zircon missile is of no use to a US fleet as the missile changes direction.... which a ballistic target does not.

    Zirkon will have a radar and likely IR sensors to detect its targets so it will also see incoming threats and be able to evade them.

    Sprint and Standard are not small missiles and could easily be detected 20km before impact... a quick turn to the right 10 degrees followed by a turn 20 degrees back will send the incoming interceptors 10km to the left and then 20km to the right... can they move 20 kms in 2 seconds?

    [quoteWhen the first SA10 came out decades ago there was a claim in Soviet war machine book I have of a 2000 mile plus range only later to be proven false.[/quote]

    Hahahahaha... think you will find that book is written by the US department of defence which at the time wanted funding for the Patriot missile programme.

    The Soviets never mentioned the SA-10 because SA-10 is a US designation for their S-300.

    Soviets don't give range figures in miles either... they are all metric.

    Any miles figures are translations by westerners.

    After stating a still unknown source claiming the widely reported top speed for the F-15 is wrong it is amusing you want to question his sources.


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    Singular_Transform

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    Re: 3M22 Zircon / Brahmos II Hypersonic Missile

    Post  Singular_Transform on Tue Nov 14, 2017 8:12 pm

    Azi wrote:
    Singular_Transform wrote:
    Air friction (resistance) has speed^3 relationship.
    Air resistance, the drag (English is not my native language!) has the equation:

    F = rho/2 * cw * A * v^2

    rho = density of air
    A = surface
    v = speed
    cw = drag coefficient

    The Power is P = F*v

    If you mean the Power than you are correct with v^3.

    Maybe my English was bad O.o Sorry!


    Bad on me, I haven't spend time to put together coherently the data / my thoughts.

    Anyway, the missile needs 20 times bigger thrust to fly at sea level OR the speed has to drop from 6 to 2 match.

    Considering that the scramjet has very narrow working parameters ( speed vs air density ) the zircon either has a very complex , variable intake/ internal geometry scramjet ( I doubt) or it just simply dispose the scramjet after burning its fuel, and fly by the inertia/ gravity.
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    Re: 3M22 Zircon / Brahmos II Hypersonic Missile

    Post  GarryB on Wed Nov 15, 2017 9:14 am

    Actually a scramjet has a very very wide range of working conditions and is one of the few jet designs that don't need a variable intake design.

    The intake on the F-16 is largely fixed which means it can't fly faster than Mach 2 because the engine would stall on the high speed air flowing into the engine.

    The MiG-29 on the other hand can fly at mach 2.4 because as it approaches mach 2 its intake ramp constricts and reduces the airflow to the engine keeping the airflow subsonic.

    A scramjet engine does not need to reduce airflow through the engine at very high speed... high speed air going through the engine wont flame out the combustor section.... the fuel burns at supersonic speed.

    At low altitude a scramjet can push much more air through it without having to restrict the airflow so it can generate considerably more thrust and have higher speed airflow through the engine and out the rear of the engine safely.


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    Re: 3M22 Zircon / Brahmos II Hypersonic Missile

    Post  Azi on Wed Nov 15, 2017 2:07 pm

    Singular_Transform wrote:
    Anyway, the missile needs 20 times bigger  thrust to fly at sea level OR the speed has to drop from 6 to 2 match.

    Considering that the scramjet has very narrow working parameters ( speed vs air density ) the zircon either has a very complex , variable intake/ internal geometry scramjet ( I doubt) or it just simply dispose the scramjet after burning its fuel, and fly by the inertia/ gravity.
    If air friction would be strict 100% of energy being spent by engine, you would be right. It's not, but indeed it's very high. Air friction is the biggest "energy barrier" to overcome at high speeds.

    By the way...take a look at Kalibr!

    The Kalibr missile (with 200 kg warhead) has a march flight speed of Mach 0,8 - 0,9. At a distance 20 km from target away it accelerates to Mach 2,9 causing a lot of trouble for AD systems of the enemy ship. I expect the same for Zirkon at low level flight path! Cruising slight above Mach 2 for the longest part and then accelerating to Mach 6 for the last ~50 km.  It must cruise at supersonic speed for sure, because Scramjet needs supersonic speed to work. At semi-ballistic path it can accelerate like hell to high altitude and then go in for a diving attack, the last km at very low altitude with very high speed or attacking direct from above. Advantage of the semi-ballistic path is 3 times the range as for only low flying.

    We have to wait for exact data Wink But not so long, a year or two cheers
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    Re: 3M22 Zircon / Brahmos II Hypersonic Missile

    Post  Singular_Transform on Wed Nov 15, 2017 9:37 pm

    Azi wrote:
    If air friction would be strict 100% of energy being spent by engine, you would be right. It's not, but indeed it's very high. Air friction is the biggest "energy barrier" to overcome at high speeds.

    By the way...take a look at Kalibr!

    The Kalibr missile (with 200 kg warhead) has a march flight speed of Mach 0,8 - 0,9. At a distance 20 km from target away it accelerates to Mach 2,9 causing a lot of trouble for AD systems of the enemy ship. I expect the same for Zirkon at low level flight path! Cruising slight above Mach 2 for the longest part and then accelerating to Mach 6 for the last ~50 km.  It must cruise at supersonic speed for sure, because Scramjet needs supersonic speed to work. At semi-ballistic path it can accelerate like hell to high altitude and then go in for a diving attack, the last km at very low altitude with very high speed or attacking direct from above. Advantage of the semi-ballistic path is 3 times the range as for only low flying.

    We have to wait for exact data Wink But not so long, a year or two cheers

    Due to the square nature the drag become the dominant restriction of any engine.


    The calibre is not a good example, that type actually a composition of a jet powered shell and a missile load.So it using two engine to do this trick.


    The granit/onix can fly in different altitudes by different speed, but they has variable air intake, and they using ramjet.

    And still, it can fly only with 1.5-2 match at sea level, and it can run with full 4 match speed at high altitude.

    It is safe to expect that the ziron hasn't got variable air intake OR variable internal geometry, and without that it can not fly with match anything, only with full speed defined by the altitude.


    The most probable is that the zircon fly a precisely pre-defined curve as it accelerate, to keep the mass flow constant, and after it flies at the same altitude, and if it reach the target ( or the fuel exhausted) it detach the scramjet, and dive to the target with match six.
    Without the scramjet it has quite small radar cross section.

    without complex engine it can not bleed out the excess air, and that can overheat /overpressurise the engine.


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    Re: 3M22 Zircon / Brahmos II Hypersonic Missile

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