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    3M22 Zircon / Brahmos II Hypersonic Missile

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    Singular_Transform

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    Re: 3M22 Zircon / Brahmos II Hypersonic Missile

    Post  Singular_Transform on Tue Apr 18, 2017 4:41 pm

    GarryB wrote:

    I think it is not that natural.

    The nose of the rocket will be extremely hot, so possibly there is no homing system there.

    It means that an onyx has to deliver the targeting data for it.

    The IRST on a MiG-29 and Su-27 and for that matter MiG-31 are no where near the tips of their noses.

    The latest model AS-11 has both radar and IR sensors in its nose...


    Again, the issue of the sensor is not trivial, the scramjet generating plasma in the front of the nose, so I can not see how you can use forward looking IR sensor or radar .

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    Rmf

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    Re: 3M22 Zircon / Brahmos II Hypersonic Missile

    Post  Rmf on Tue Apr 18, 2017 8:20 pm

    probably launch uav but with kamikaze option built into it. i cant imagine uav going back into uksk after its mission. Laughing
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    Re: 3M22 Zircon / Brahmos II Hypersonic Missile

    Post  Rmf on Tue Apr 18, 2017 8:35 pm

    Singular_Transform wrote:
    GarryB wrote:

    I think it is not that natural.

    The nose of the rocket will be extremely hot, so possibly there is no homing system there.

    It means that an onyx has to deliver the targeting data for it.

    The IRST on a MiG-29 and Su-27 and for that matter MiG-31 are no where near the tips of their noses.

    The latest model AS-11 has both radar and IR sensors in its nose...


    Again, the issue of the sensor is not trivial, the scramjet generating plasma in the front of the nose, so I can not see how you can use forward looking IR sensor or radar .

    http://www.deagel.com/library1/medium/2010/m02010061500020.jpg
    behind a blunt nose you have side looking sensor away from heat , like on thaad missile as ilustration, you overfly your target a bit then use terminal maneuver to correct , probably how chinese balistic antiship missile works.
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    KomissarBojanchev

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    Re: 3M22 Zircon / Brahmos II Hypersonic Missile

    Post  KomissarBojanchev on Tue Apr 18, 2017 11:01 pm

    Can someone explain why the Zircon has an angular "duck bill" nose instead of the streamlined intake of the Onyx? What are the aerodynamic benefits?

    Also one of the best things about the zirkon will be that it doesn't need a large warhead, or might not need one at all due to the sheer kinetic force it hits at.
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    GarryB

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    Re: 3M22 Zircon / Brahmos II Hypersonic Missile

    Post  GarryB on Wed Apr 19, 2017 12:48 pm

    Again, the issue of the sensor is not trivial, the scramjet generating plasma in the front of the nose, so I can not see how you can use forward looking IR sensor or radar .

    Look at photos of the latest model AS-11... it has passive radar seeker in nose (it is an ARM) and it has two IR sensors underneath and it flys at a standard mach 4-5 AFAIK with rocket propulsion.

    Can someone explain why the Zircon has an angular "duck bill" nose instead of the streamlined intake of the Onyx? What are the aerodynamic benefits?

    The flat nose is a wave riding lifting body design... it is very streamlined... there is just more frontal surface area.


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    TheArmenian

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    Re: 3M22 Zircon / Brahmos II Hypersonic Missile

    Post  TheArmenian on Wed Apr 19, 2017 12:58 pm

    The Zircon will fly at Mach 8 at high altitudes only.
    At high altitudes air is less dense compared to lower altitudes.
    Heat build up due to friction with air will be less at those higher altitudes.
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    Singular_Transform

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    Re: 3M22 Zircon / Brahmos II Hypersonic Missile

    Post  Singular_Transform on Wed Apr 19, 2017 4:55 pm

    GarryB wrote:
    Again, the issue of the sensor is not trivial, the scramjet generating plasma in the front of the nose, so I can not see how you can use forward looking IR sensor or radar .

    Look at photos of the latest model AS-11... it has passive radar seeker in nose (it is an ARM) and it has two IR sensors underneath and it flys at a standard mach 4-5 AFAIK with rocket propulsion.

    Can someone explain why the Zircon has an angular "duck bill" nose instead of the streamlined intake of the Onyx? What are the aerodynamic benefits?

    The flat nose is a wave riding lifting body design... it is very streamlined... there is just more frontal surface area.

    Temperature and speed has a quadratic relationship, means twice as much speed means four time higher temperature.
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    GarryB

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    Re: 3M22 Zircon / Brahmos II Hypersonic Missile

    Post  GarryB on Thu Apr 20, 2017 11:09 am

    Temperature is relative... what makes you think and IR sensor looking through a nose cone that is heated to 400 degrees C by friction wont work when an IR sensor looking through a room temperature heated to 25 degrees C will work.

    That actual IR sensor element is either a cooled element or an uncooled element, but it is the temperature of the element itself that determines its performance... not the air between the element and what it is detecting, nor the surface temperature of the housing the sensor is mounted in.

    Compared with a liquid nitrogen cooled detector element room temperature is already very very hot, yet it manages to detect both very hot and very cold objects...


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    Singular_Transform

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    Re: 3M22 Zircon / Brahmos II Hypersonic Missile

    Post  Singular_Transform on Thu Apr 20, 2017 7:35 pm

    GarryB wrote:Temperature is relative... what makes you think and IR sensor looking through a nose cone that is heated to 400 degrees C by friction wont work when an IR sensor looking through a room temperature heated to 25 degrees C will work.

    That actual IR sensor element is either a cooled element or an uncooled element, but it is the temperature of the element itself that determines its performance... not the air between the element and what it is detecting, nor the surface temperature of the housing the sensor is mounted in.

    Compared with a liquid nitrogen cooled detector element room temperature is already very very hot, yet it manages to detect both very hot and very cold objects...


    Agree,temperature is relative.

    Compared to the 293 K temperature the 310 is higher by a lot.



    However the plasma radiation way more heat than anything can, means the IR sensor won't be able to see through.

    Even the longer radio waves won't penetrate the plasma.

    The space capsules coming down in complete radio silence due to the plasma.
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    Re: 3M22 Zircon / Brahmos II Hypersonic Missile

    Post  GarryB on Fri Apr 21, 2017 1:06 pm

    Plasma is caused by reentry speeds... 7-10km/s. We are only talking about mach 7-8...  no more than about 2.5km/s.

    Hardly plasma creating speeds... the S-400 and S-500 probably travel faster than that and they have working nose mounted radar antenna.

    Look at this latest model of the AS-11:



    Near the nose underneath is one of two forward looking IR sensors... now it does not fly at mach 8, but it does move at more than mach 3 and AFAIK the friction heating at a speed of about mach 3 is something like 300 degrees C... or it is for the MiG-31/25.

    If it can look through a crystal lense at 300 degrees C then why not faster and hotter... what would be the limit?

    Certainly Plasma blocks radio waves but IR are not radio waves.


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    Isos

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    Re: 3M22 Zircon / Brahmos II Hypersonic Missile

    Post  Isos on Fri Apr 21, 2017 2:13 pm

    GarryB wrote:Plasma is caused by reentry speeds... 7-10km/s. We are only talking about mach 7-8...  no more than about 2.5km/s.

    Hardly plasma creating speeds... the S-400 and S-500 probably travel faster than that and they have working nose mounted radar antenna.

    Look at this latest model of the AS-11:



    Near the nose underneath is one of two forward looking IR sensors... now it does not fly at mach 8, but it does move at more than mach 3 and AFAIK the friction heating at a speed of about mach 3 is something like 300 degrees C... or it is for the MiG-31/25.

    If it can look through a crystal lense at 300 degrees C then why not faster and hotter... what would be the limit?

    Certainly Plasma blocks radio waves but IR are not radio waves.

    This combo of Ir/radar seekers on a supersonic high flying missile would make it a nice antiship missile. Is it planned to use them for that role ? I suppose it's a passive radar for SEAD mission. Can it fly at more than 20 km so it outrange airdefence missiles ?

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    Re: 3M22 Zircon / Brahmos II Hypersonic Missile

    Post  Teshub on Fri Apr 21, 2017 11:29 pm

    GarryB wrote:Plasma is caused by reentry speeds... 7-10km/s. We are only talking about mach 7-8...  no more than about 2.5km/s.

    Hardly plasma creating speeds... the S-400 and S-500 probably travel faster than that and they have working nose mounted radar antenna.
    Plasma is created at about mach 6 and grows increasingly disruptive to radio comms upwards from there. At mach 8 I believe signals like GPS reception are seriously attenuated.

    As for temperature, hypersonic speeds usually generate boundary layer temps of 1,000°C and over. Sufficient to saturate IR sensors.


    Last edited by Teshub on Fri Apr 21, 2017 11:37 pm; edited 1 time in total
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    Singular_Transform

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    Re: 3M22 Zircon / Brahmos II Hypersonic Missile

    Post  Singular_Transform on Fri Apr 21, 2017 11:32 pm

    There is no argument about that the designers has to use same active targeting / midcourse guidance, the question is how and what type?

    Side looking sensors can be a good idea.
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    Re: 3M22 Zircon / Brahmos II Hypersonic Missile

    Post  Rowdyhorse4 on Thu Jun 29, 2017 4:21 pm

    Anyone got a timetable for Zircon tests untill today?
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    Re: 3M22 Zircon / Brahmos II Hypersonic Missile

    Post  GarryB on Sat Jul 01, 2017 5:40 am

    This combo of Ir/radar seekers on a supersonic high flying missile would make it a nice antiship missile. Is it planned to use them for that role ? I suppose it's a passive radar for SEAD mission. Can it fly at more than 20 km so it outrange airdefence missiles ?

    I have actually seen a combined active passive radar antenna... I think it was on the Auspower website...

    The active radar range was something like 70km, while the passive radar range was 200km+... with an autopilot to get it within 50km of a naval target such a seeker plus IR sensors would make it a very useful anti ship missile.

    A high altitude launch to 240km range would make it a useful anti ship missile too and the heavy 150kg payload would be useful against most ships combined with the kinetic energy of the impact.

    As for temperature, hypersonic speeds usually generate boundary layer temps of 1,000°C and over. Sufficient to saturate IR sensors.

    A normal old technology cooled thermal imager has its elements cooled with liquid nitrogen to very minus C degrees... in comparison room temperature is very very hot.

    The issue for the heat sensor is not the external temperature... flying at mach 3 with external temperatures of over 300 degrees C an IR sensor can still see body heat at about 38 degrees C.

    The issue is getting a IR transparent material that can survive the high temperatures of high speed flight.



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    Re: 3M22 Zircon / Brahmos II Hypersonic Missile

    Post  arpakola on Sat Jul 22, 2017 10:50 pm

    the Chinese DF21 reentry may use gyro for the last miles down...

    Infra red is a bad idea as the missile may be stoped by counter measures easily

    Optical image recognition of the target may be a solution , with a on board processor
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    GarryB

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    Re: 3M22 Zircon / Brahmos II Hypersonic Missile

    Post  GarryB on Mon Jul 24, 2017 11:52 am

    Ring laser gyros have very good precision and it is over time and not distance so the shorter the flight the more accurate it is.

    It comes down to how much the target moves and how accurately the target is located in the first place... with a nuke warhead of course extreme precision is not critical.

    Optical guidance is not so effective when it is cloudy and often ship launched decoy rockets of the IR type also deploy a huge smoke screen which covers the target ship and makes it optically invisible.


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    Re: 3M22 Zircon / Brahmos II Hypersonic Missile

    Post  gaurav on Wed Jul 26, 2017 4:59 pm

    Teshub wrote:Plasma is created at about mach 6 and grows increasingly disruptive to radio comms upwards from there. At mach 8 I believe signals like GPS reception are seriously attenuated.

    As for temperature, hypersonic speeds usually generate boundary layer temps of 1,000°C and over. Sufficient to saturate IR sensors.

    Mannnn what surprice .. shocked .. Rolling Eyes

    Yu are dead accurate. It seems America is learning a lot about missiles after receiving a thrashing from 3rd world missile countries. So much accurate
    information I have never heard from any western guy. It seems lockheed , Boeing dolts are been forced to sit on desk and study about missiles.

    I was talking to a American pilot in 2010 may be before , he did not even know what plasma was. He knew a lot though.
    But vow here yu are describing in detail the problems of  super-hypersonic missile in cut out points.

    It seems Iran , Pakistan are helping boeing, Lockheed guys gain some traction as to what really is missile technology.
    These 2 countries are the most developed /developing their medium range missiles for high intensity conflicts.
    I do not believe cia/nsa has enough resources to check mate the Russia missile advances and steal the secrets of Russian industry , because everyone know

    russia no longer does any research on any missle it only deals in mass scale production of hypersonic missiles.
    The american way might be to steal or follow the russian defence production which is really gearing upto soviet levels. BY spying and stealing from russia production America can try to understand what is the level of russian industry and even understand there have been lot of efforts by Americans but how much they are succesful in understanding russian missiles that is really different matter Rolling Eyes
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    gaurav

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    Re: 3M22 Zircon / Brahmos II Hypersonic Missile

    Post  gaurav on Sat Jul 29, 2017 5:56 pm

    sputnik: zirkon update

    sputniknews wrote:“The Zircon hypersonic anti-ship missile, which is now being tested in Russia, has already reached eight times
    the speed of sound and is designed for speeds of up to 12 times the speed of sound. We have also successfully tested the
    warheads for the RS-28 Sarmat intercontinental ballistic missile,” Leonkov said.
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    AlfaT8

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    Re: 3M22 Zircon / Brahmos II Hypersonic Missile

    Post  AlfaT8 on Sat Jul 29, 2017 7:59 pm

    gaurav wrote:sputnik: zirkon update

    sputniknews wrote:“The Zircon hypersonic anti-ship missile, which is now being tested in Russia, has already reached eight times
    the speed of sound and is designed for speeds of up to 12 times the speed of sound. We have also successfully tested the
    warheads for the RS-28 Sarmat intercontinental ballistic missile,” Leonkov said.

    Sound like misreporting again, the mach 8 is probly Zircon's theoretical max, the mach 12 thing sounds more like Sarmat.
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    miketheterrible

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    Re: 3M22 Zircon / Brahmos II Hypersonic Missile

    Post  miketheterrible on Sat Jul 29, 2017 8:44 pm

    AlfaT8 wrote:
    gaurav wrote:sputnik: zirkon update

    sputniknews wrote:“The Zircon hypersonic anti-ship missile, which is now being tested in Russia, has already reached eight times
    the speed of sound and is designed for speeds of up to 12 times the speed of sound. We have also successfully tested the
    warheads for the RS-28 Sarmat intercontinental ballistic missile,” Leonkov said.

    Sound like misreporting again, the mach 8 is probly Zircon's theoretical max, the mach 12 thing sounds more like Sarmat.

    no, since warheads now for ICBM's are mach 20. So more like mach 20 for Sarmat. 12 Mach is more than likely for Zircon
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    AlfaT8

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    Re: 3M22 Zircon / Brahmos II Hypersonic Missile

    Post  AlfaT8 on Sun Jul 30, 2017 3:15 am

    miketheterrible wrote:
    AlfaT8 wrote:
    gaurav wrote:sputnik: zirkon update

    sputniknews wrote:“The Zircon hypersonic anti-ship missile, which is now being tested in Russia, has already reached eight times
    the speed of sound and is designed for speeds of up to 12 times the speed of sound. We have also successfully tested the
    warheads for the RS-28 Sarmat intercontinental ballistic missile,” Leonkov said.

    Sound like misreporting again, the mach 8 is probly Zircon's theoretical max, the mach 12 thing sounds more like Sarmat.

    no, since warheads now for ICBM's are mach 20. So more like mach 20 for Sarmat. 12 Mach is more than likely for Zircon

    If that true then Zircon is a bloody monster.
    Although since we are on the subject, i have been wondering that since Sarmat's warheads are maneuvering wont they lose considerable speed Gliding?
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    GarryB

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    Re: 3M22 Zircon / Brahmos II Hypersonic Missile

    Post  GarryB on Sun Jul 30, 2017 12:26 pm

    Not a huge amount... they are falling too.

    Most of them will be airburst and not need to actually reach the ground anyway...

    7km/s is a pretty average reentry speed... which is about mach 22... mach 12 is just under 4km/s... which the Triump and late model S-300s can intercept already... assuming it flys straight.

    Note with most ballistic targets manovuering reduces speed, but fro Zircon it is a powered aircraft so it wont lose that much speed if any during turns, and could recover lost speed...


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    gaurav

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    Re: 3M22 Zircon / Brahmos II Hypersonic Missile

    Post  gaurav on Mon Jul 31, 2017 4:32 pm

    Alfat8 wrote:Sound like misreporting again, the mach 8 is probly Zircon's theoretical max, the mach 12 thing sounds more like Sarmat.
    GarryB wrote:7km/s is a pretty average reentry speed... which is about mach 22... mach 12 is just under 4km/s... which the Triump and late model S-300s can intercept already... assuming it flys straight.
    I think you are correct. When we discussed about RS-24 (RS 26 not under discussion) we used to say mach 12 for warheads . I do not know what  ICBM warheads flight profile is but I think most of Russian missiles(other countries do not have these type of missiles) they slow before they come in contact.
    I believe the ICBM warheads strike their targets at mach no 5 -8 far lower than 7-8 km /sec speeds at which they separate.

    Ironically slowing of speeds before hitting targets
    is due acquiring of target ,
    last stage tracking ,
    sensitive warheads,
    imaging(radar ,pre determined flight paths do not require radar, thermal to detect targets, they conduct approximate hitting at target only useful for icbm..)

    I am quite sure that previously warheads used to decrease their speeds before hitting their targets but with the new advances of re-targeting , multi targeting "on the fly mode" I am not sure what is the exact speed of warheads.

    miketheterrible wrote:no, since warheads now for ICBM's are mach 20. So more like mach 20 for Sarmat. 12 Mach is more than likely for Zircon

    On teh whole I agree with the notion that ICBM warheads decrease their speeds to mach 5 to 6 before hitting their targets. Suppose the ICBM warheads have to by pass anti missile then they will by pass/conduct evasive manuevres at like 400kms  to 800 kms distance from the targets not 4 -10 kms distance from target.

    As far as production is concerned RS-24 and Bulava and under full production where as RS-26 and sarmat are delayed due to (Russia U.S  reset in 2017).
    Russia has recently made some excuses to Trump admin for mass production of RS24 and bulava. and is deliberately delaying rs-26 and sarmat due to (detente and may be economic partnership programs with U.S)

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