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    3M22 Zircon (Brahmos II) Hypersonic Missile

    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB on Sun Nov 10, 2019 5:05 am

    But the Russian Navy is incomparably smaller than the Western. He can't compete with west navy for dominance. Only China, which is building 15 destroyers at a time, will be able to stand up.

    Smaller doesn't come in to it when one Russian navy corvette can carry 16 carrier killers.... such a corvette will dominate any 1,000km radius space of water it happens to be sitting in at any time.

    Those 15 Chinese destroyers are not in any better position vis vie the Russian Corvette.

    Basically the situation is that the US and UK and French Navies have dominated the swimming pool because the Americans are a big 2m tall 150kg black guy built like Mike Tyson, and the French and British guys are 1.8m tall 100kg heavy build big guys too... and up until recently Russia is a little 15 year old 50kg girl who was in no position to tell those other three what to do. Well Zircon is two 357 magnum revolvers each with 8 chambers while the three western men have bats and wooden shields.

    There is no such thing as certainty, but the odds are now stacked in favour of the ships carrying the long range hypersonic missiles... but eventually that will change because the result is that everyone is going to get handguns of course... that is the nature of things. The thing is that having a 357 magnum that little girl is testing all sorts of materials to defend herself so by the time the big boys have hand guns the girl with the hand gun might have a bullet proof vest too.
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    Post  thegopnik on Sun Nov 10, 2019 9:59 pm

    Arrow wrote:

    How did they solve this if the plasma surrounding Zircon flying 9M blocked electromagnetic signals?

    But the Russian Navy is incomparably smaller than the Western. He can't compete with west navy for dominance. Only China, which is building 15 destroyers at a time, will be able to stand up. wrote:

    I seriously dedicated my Quora answer link just for you and for all of your concerns as well.

    https://qr.ae/TWaFfZ
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    Post  Arrow on Mon Nov 11, 2019 12:37 pm

    Thanks
    But Cirkon even if it is stealth thanks to the plasma will still be very visible in the IR band.
    Isos
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    Post  Isos on Mon Nov 11, 2019 12:51 pm

    Arrow wrote:Thanks
    But Cirkon even if it is stealth thanks to the plasma will still be very visible in the IR band.

    And ? You will use manpad against then ?
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    Post  magnumcromagnon on Mon Nov 11, 2019 6:16 pm

    Arrow wrote:Thanks
    But Cirkon even if it is stealth thanks to the plasma will still be very visible in the IR band.
    If it has an aerosol dispersal system like the Topol-M warhead, then it won't be 'that easy' to spot in the IR band.
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    Post  GarryB on Tue Nov 12, 2019 3:15 am

    But Cirkon even if it is stealth thanks to the plasma will still be very visible in the IR band.

    You are not getting it are you... Zircon isn't supposed to be stealthy... nor is Granit or Onyx... they all fly at medium to high altitudes at full speed to overwhelm the defence using both speed and numbers... or in the case of Zircon just speed and manouver performance. The former are large missiles and carry all sorts of sneaky things like jammers and decoys that they release when they detect they are being tracked by ARH missile seekers and of course they can perform manouvers too, but with Zircon, its speed makes it irrelevant whether you don't see it till the last second or if you see it being launched.

    Saudi Arabian airspace was penetrated because they didn't see anything coming, but if they did have better radar coverage and they did see it coming many of those drones and missiles should have been shot down... some might have gotten through because of their numbers... but not necessarily... because their low speed gives the defence time to deal with them a couple at a time. If they were supersonic there would be much less time, though they would be flying higher and more likely would have been detected.

    There were gaps at low level in their air defences because they are optimised for aircraft and possibly ballistic missiles.

    Zircon is optimised to defeat US carrier groups which are much better defended and have better radar and missile coverage so flying low and slow wont be effective because their AWACS aircraft can spot targets at the wave tops and even sitting in the water.

    They could have gone stealthy or very very fast... real stealth is expensive and requires enormous precision and can be damaged easily to render all that stealth useless... a screw not tightened properly that is sticking up wont mean that panel will fall off, but it will ruin the RCS you just spend a trillion dollars to achieve.

    Speed offers all sorts of other advantages... the scramjet technology in Zircon could one day be used in a variable cycle jet engine that starts as a turbojet and then turns into a scramjet to fly around the world in a few hours, or accelerate up to near space to launch satellite payloads cheaply and quickly and from anywhere on earth where there is a runway.

    Lots of problems like dealing with heat and aerodynamic design and new fuel types etc but the investment can be used in a range of things... including SAMs and AAMs and ASMs and even UAVs and manned aircraft.
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    Post  Hole on Sat Nov 16, 2019 5:11 pm

    3M22 Zircon (Brahmos II) Hypersonic Missile - Page 14 D0ld2z10
    3M22 Zircon (Brahmos II) Hypersonic Missile - Page 14 D0ld2z11
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    Post  mnztr on Sun Nov 17, 2019 12:36 am

    GarryB wrote:
    The thing is that having a 357 magnum that little girl is testing all sorts of materials to defend herself so by the time the big boys have hand guns the girl with the hand gun might have a bullet proof vest too.

    The thing with hypesonics is they are fiendishly difficult to defend against. Even if you can perfect a powerful laser, the sea level distance to horizon is less then 3 seconds at hypersonic speed. At 30m height its still only 17 seconds.. and that is to acquire and shoot. The reasons these missiles have pop up and plunging attacks is firstly fusing (the missile will go right through the ship and if it blows up under the ship in the water its 100% a kill), secondly, if the missile is hit, getting showered with mach 2-4 debris is still pretty bad news.
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    Post  Big_Gazza on Sun Nov 17, 2019 1:53 am

    Hole wrote:3M22 Zircon (Brahmos II) Hypersonic Missile - Page 14 D0ld2z10
    3M22 Zircon (Brahmos II) Hypersonic Missile - Page 14 D0ld2z11

    Meh...  these are just fan-art inspired by the (barely hypersonic) X-51a Waverider.

    Whatever the actual configuration of Tsirkon is, it's not going to be a Waverider clone. The Ruskies are aiming MUCH higher than this crappy Boing-Boing tech demonstrator.
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    Post  Big_Gazza on Sun Nov 17, 2019 2:00 am

    mnztr wrote:
    GarryB wrote:
    The thing is that having a 357 magnum that little girl is testing all sorts of materials to defend herself so by the time the big boys have hand guns the girl with the hand gun might have a bullet proof vest too.

    The thing with hypesonics is they are fiendishly difficult to defend against. Even if you can perfect a powerful laser, the sea level distance to horizon is less then 3 seconds at hypersonic speed. At 30m height its still only 17 seconds.. and that is to acquire and shoot. The reasons these missiles have pop up and plunging attacks is firstly fusing (the missile will go right through the ship and if it blows up under the ship in the water its 100% a kill), secondly, if the missile is hit, getting showered with mach 2-4 debris is still pretty bad news.

    Add to that the difficulty inherent in accurately tracking the incoming threat and directing a laser sufficiently accurate to put beam on target and pump sufficient heat into the target to overcome its already formidable ablative heat shields and achieve a kill in the VERY narrow time window available.

    Now consider trying to do this against 5-10 flying a wolfpack....

    LOL!!! The stress of it all... No wonder USN Brass are stocking up on stomach ulcer medication.... Twisted Evil Twisted Evil Twisted Evil Twisted Evil
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    Post  mnztr on Mon Nov 18, 2019 1:00 am

    Big_Gazza wrote:

    Add to that the difficulty inherent in accurately tracking the incoming threat and directing a laser sufficiently accurate to put beam on target and pump sufficient heat into the target to overcome its already formidable ablative heat shields and achieve a kill in the VERY narrow time window available.

    Now consider trying to do this against 5-10 flying a wolfpack....

    LOL!!!  The stress of it all...   No wonder USN Brass are stocking up on stomach ulcer medication....   Twisted Evil Twisted Evil Twisted Evil Twisted Evil

    The ones with the biggest and most expensive assets will have the biggest headache. And the USN will just be a collection of floating targets.
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    Post  GarryB on Mon Nov 18, 2019 10:07 am

    The thing with hypesonics is they are fiendishly difficult to defend against.

    I agree, they are hard enough to track because they are moving so fast, but any change in trajectory needs to be measured precisely and because of the high flight speed the lead needed for an intercept can be enormous but a minor shift in trajectory can shift the point of interception several kilometres and then half a second later another turn can shift it several kilometres again... pretty soon you don't have enough energy or time to make it to the new interception point in time to intercept and sometimes you get to the interception point but the target has manouvered and is going to be somewhere else and you can't move from where you are to where you need to be in time to be there when the target is there... if you get there too early you can't just stop and wait for it to arrive...

    Even if you can perfect a powerful laser, the sea level distance to horizon is less then 3 seconds at hypersonic speed.

    The front of a hypersonic missile will be designed to withstand enormous temperatures and a simple design option could be laser transparent materials with a coloured fluid inside... the laser would pass through the outer material and boil the fluid... the fluid could be fuel on its way to the engine so normally in flight getting heated by friction gets it very hot so injection into the scramjet and burning it makes it even more effective high energy fuel... a laser heating it up further should make it more efficient as a fuel by adding even more heat energy to it... or it could just be some inert liquid absorbing energy from the laser for a few minutes...


    Add to that the difficulty inherent in accurately tracking the incoming threat and directing a laser sufficiently accurate to put beam on target and pump sufficient heat into the target to overcome its already formidable ablative heat shields and achieve a kill in the VERY narrow time window available.

    Now consider trying to do this against 5-10 flying a wolfpack....

    Or perhaps the first launched weapon climbs to 100K metres and detonates a nuclear bomb powered EMP device to make surface ships take a nap and ionise the atmosphere for an hour or two while the rest of the missiles are on their way.... Surprise!

    The ones with the biggest and most expensive assets will have the biggest headache. And the USN will just be a collection of floating targets.

    Imagine a Russian corvette with 16 Zircon missiles sailing down the Med... it will be able to sink any ship or hit land targets within 1,000km of its position... I thought the Brits were taking the piss when they sent ships to escort Russian frigates down the English Channel but maybe they are protecting the UK from anhilation... there is no reason to assume the warheads wont be nukes.... Twisted Evil
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    Post  dino00 on Fri Nov 22, 2019 2:19 pm

    Russia plans new trials of Tsirkon hypersonic missile before yearend — source

    The tests will take place at a naval range of the Northern Fleet, the source specified


    MOSCOW, November 22. /TASS/. New tests of the latest Tsirkon hypersonic missile will take place at a naval range of the Northern Fleet before the end of the year, a source in defense circles of Russia’s North-Western Federal District told TASS on Friday.

    "A Tsirkon missile is expected to be launched from the White Sea before the end of the year. The specific date will be set as soon as the technical equipment is ready," the source said.

    Specialists are now making a special stand based on a pontoon, from which the latest missile will be test-fired, the source added.

    The Research and Production Association of Machine-Building, which is developing the Tsirkon, declined to comment on the missile’s planned trials.

    https://tass.com/defense/1091759
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    Post  Arrow on Sun Dec 08, 2019 4:09 pm

    What pontoon? Earlier they wrote that the test will take place from the frigate 22350.
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    Post  PapaDragon on Sun Dec 08, 2019 4:20 pm

    Arrow wrote:What pontoon? Earlier they wrote that the test will take place from the frigate 22350.

    I know why but I am not wasting explanation on you

    It's simple really

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    Post  thegopnik on Fri Dec 13, 2019 3:22 am

    https://qr.ae/TZd2qA My answer post high-lights the capabilities of the Zircon missile.

    1. how they solve the communication problem with Zircon.

    2. The atmosphere calculator shows that the Zircon has reached fire-control frequencies but with the hope of one more mach speed added over mach 9 it can handle frequencies at 20ghz or lower because the plasma frequency is higher than the lower radio frequency where the electrons change the property of lower frequencies and cause weak radar returns.

    3. easy to follow explanation why they chose speed over plasma generators, and the reason why the plasma density with electrons effects electromagnetic radiation of waves.
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    Post  dino00 on Tue Dec 24, 2019 1:29 pm

    Putin said Russia is developing a ground-based version of the Zircon hypersonic missile

    MOSCOW, December 24. / TASS /. Russia is working on a ground-based version of the Zircon sea-based hypersonic missile. This was stated by Russian President Vladimir Putin at the final board of the military department.

    "We have plans to work on other systems. <...> On the land and sea-based hypersonic Zircon rockets," Putin said.

    https://tass.ru/armiya-i-opk/7414553
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    Post  PapaDragon on Tue Dec 24, 2019 1:55 pm

    dino00 wrote:Putin said Russia is developing a ground-based version of the Zircon hypersonic missile

    MOSCOW, December 24. / TASS /. Russia is working on a ground-based version of the Zircon sea-based hypersonic missile. This was stated by Russian President Vladimir Putin at the final board of the military department.

    "We have plans to work on other systems. <...> On the land and sea-based hypersonic Zircon rockets," Putin said.

    https://tass.ru/armiya-i-opk/7414553


    To surprise of absolutely no one given that INF is kaput

    This will be sweet addition to collection of nuke missiles pointed at Euros should any of them ever be dumb enough to allow Pentagon to park their new euromissile on their soil


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    Post  GarryB on Wed Dec 25, 2019 12:37 pm

    Given the range of these weapons missiles based on the far east can target the US too...
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    Post  PapaDragon on Wed Dec 25, 2019 3:13 pm

    GarryB wrote:Given the range of these weapons missiles based on the far east can target the US too...

    1000km ballpark of Zircon is not exactly ideal for mainland USA

    It would need something more fancy for that like Kinzhal with booster stage or RS-26 Rubezh

    No shortage of options now


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    Post  Hole on Wed Dec 25, 2019 8:40 pm

    As far as I know Zirkon was always intended to replace Onyx in the Bastion coastal defence systems = ground-based.
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    Post  GarryB on Thu Dec 26, 2019 6:28 am


    1000km ballpark of Zircon is not exactly ideal for mainland USA

    It would need something more fancy for that like Kinzhal with booster stage or RS-26 Rubezh

    No shortage of options now

    Sorry, I was meaning with the INF treaty gone they can have IRBMs with ranges up to 5,000km range that are not counted as strategic weapons that, when based in the far east or even in the far north could reach targets in the us as well as the middle east and europe and asia if necessary.

    Imagine a land based variant where the Zircon missile sits in a tube with two extra missile bodies each side and with main wings and a tail wing surface that uses a solid rocket booster to get airborne and then flys a subsonic speeds at medium altitude for a few thousand kms before launching the Zircon which then climbs to operational altitude and accelerates to high speed for the last 1,000-2,000kms of the flight path to the target... as the original platform burns fuel and gets lighter it will get faster and be able to climb to higher and higher altitudes for the launch... which should be beneficial in terms of the range of the payload that is the Zircon.

    Of course in its primary role 1,000km range is already plenty so developing such a booster carrier system is probably a waste of time and resources... you could scratch build a new weapon with much better performance of course...
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    Post  Arrow on Mon Dec 30, 2019 10:14 am

    ussia plans new trials of Tsirkon hypersonic missile before yearend — source wrote:

    So we have the end of the year. There is no information about any Zircon tests. There are two options
    Test canceled
    The test took place but ended in failure so there is nothing to give information.
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    Post  Big_Gazza on Mon Dec 30, 2019 12:51 pm

    Arrow wrote:

    So we have the end of the year. There is no information about any Zircon tests. There are two options
    Test canceled
    The test took place but ended in failure so there is nothing to give information.

    third option.

    It's none of NATO's fucking business, so the Russian Military tests in secret and gives them squat.   Twisted Evil
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    Post  Arrow on Mon Dec 30, 2019 3:14 pm

    o the Russian Military tests in secret and gives them squat wrote:

    Of course, that's why they wrote for a month that at the end of the year there would be a Zircon test from the 22350 frigate Laughing

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