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    3M22 Zircon (Brahmos II) Hypersonic Missile

    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB on Mon Apr 15, 2019 11:03 am

    Well they are making a new air launched cruise missile to take advantage of the full size of the Blackjack weapon bays, and I suspect they will do the same with weapons in the UKSK launcher and UKSK-M launcher.
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    Post  dino00 on Sat May 25, 2019 12:53 am

    I will bring wings: small rocket ships will show Zircon targets

    Coastal complexes will be able to receive target designation from the sea


    The greatest danger to the enemy is hypersonic "Zircons". They are capable of accelerating to 8 Machs and hitting targets at a range of up to 500 km. First of all they will be placed on ships and mobile ground installations.

    https://iz.ru/881690/aleksei-ramm-aleksei-kozachenko-bogdan-stepovoi/krylia-navedu-malye-raketnye-korabli-pokazhut-tceli-tcirkonam

    The translation of this article is a mess, but I think it's interesting the part I highlighted, some other things may be interesting I think the article has some mistakes.
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    Post  GarryB on Sat May 25, 2019 3:18 am

    I think the important message in that article is that they will be sharing information and target data in a shared information space, so an enemy carrier detected by sub or satellite or ship or aircraft can be engaged by a tiny corvette which on its own would not even know the carrier was there, but has been given information from other platforms... it could hide amongst islands or even be sitting in port under an air defence umbrella of other ships and aircraft and launch its weapon with the same chance of getting a hit as if it had been launched from an SSBN or cruiser.
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    Post  medo on Sat May 25, 2019 9:33 am

    River-sea class corvette like Buyan-M could also hide deep inside river delta and could launch missiles against targets on the open sea or against targets deeper inside land mass. Big rivers like Neva, Don and Volga give to Buyan-M a lot of space to maneuver deep inside continential mass and can still sail in closed seas of Baltic, Black sea and Caspian sea without any problem.
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    Post  Arrow on Mon May 27, 2019 11:15 am

    ". They are capable of accelerating to 8 Machs and hitting targets at a range of up to 500 km wrote:

    So only 500km and not more than 1000km.
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    Post  Singular_Transform on Mon May 27, 2019 11:30 am

    Arrow wrote:
    ". They are capable of accelerating to 8 Machs and hitting targets at a range of up to 500 km wrote:

    So only 500km and not more than 1000km.

    that is the ballistic range.

    This is not a ballistic missile.

    The data rubbish.
    It can be interpreted as the diving deep of USA submarines.
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    Post  dino00 on Mon May 27, 2019 2:06 pm

    Arrow wrote:

    So only 500km and not more than 1000km.

    The article is talking about Zirkon launched from the coast, but they don't have a source...
    Sadly for you Zirkon:
    1000km+ range
    Mach 9 speed welcome
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    Post  GarryB on Tue May 28, 2019 4:29 am

    I suspect they are confusing the fact that a land or surface based launched missile used to be required to have a max range of 500km or less due to the INF treaty... but now that that is gone there are no range restrictions for sea, or land based missiles.

    Zircon is a sea surface launched missile that is described as having a range of 1,000km... a land based missile would have the same range for obvious reasons and an air launched missile would probably double that range (note for Iskander it more than triples when launched high and fast from a MiG-31 but it is rocket propelled).

    A lot of energy is used to get a missile moving and up into the air... when aircraft launched the aircraft does all that work so that extra energy can go into more altitude and more speed, and very simply the more speed and altitude the more range it can manage.

    An Air to Air missile like an R-73 probably has an effective range of about 12km at low altitude because the air is thicker and warmer so it can't accelerate to as high a speed so when the motor burns out it is coasting at a slower speed so it runs out of energy much faster therefore its range is much shorter.

    The same missile launched at high altitude at high speed means thinner air and much much higher flight speed and it can coast along for a much longer period so so called kinetic or ballistic range is something like 40-45km.

    It is less critical for Zircon because its propulsion is not a fixed rocket, it has a scramjet engine so it can throttle up or down to most efficiently use its available energy, but the solid rocket booster that normally gets it airborne and moving fast fired from an aircraft will allow it to get much higher and much faster than from a ship or sub or truck launcher so it will go further faster... a scramjet is most efficient at hypersonic speeds just like on level ground your car will idle along most fuel efficiently in top gear... the top gear doesn't make the car use less fuel... but it does make it coast fastest at that fuel consumption rate while lower gears means going slower for the same fuel burn...
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    Post  hoom on Tue May 28, 2019 5:53 am

    Could be the difference between a low-low and hi-low profile.
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    Post  Arrow on Wed May 29, 2019 3:30 pm

    Low-low profile with 9M speed?
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    Post  GarryB on Wed May 29, 2019 11:34 pm

    A hypersonic missile would not be used in a low attack trajectory... that would just not make sense... it would certainly not be flying at mach 10 at low altitude, though in theory it should be able to fly much faster and for much longer than a rocket propelled missile at low altitude it would probably lose half its speed flying low... which would make it very formidable as most things are much slower at sea level...

    For instance mach 4 missiles like AMRAAM are not mach 4 missiles launched at low altitudes so it would probably not be much use against Zircon at low level... most long range high speed SAMs would have very short ranges at low altitudes... normally they would be lofted up and come down on the target at range... the target flying lower means the target is slower and easier to get to... at high altitude they wont get there in time because the target is moving much faster...
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    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Fri May 31, 2019 1:47 pm

    Arrow wrote:Low-low profile with 9M speed?


    if it flies 9Ma then this is like ~2,7km/s last 100km can fly in something more 30seconds. Why not?
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    Post  GarryB on Tue Jun 04, 2019 10:23 am

    if it flies 9Ma then this is like ~2,7km/s last 100km can fly in something more 30seconds. Why not?

    For the same reason the SR-71 does not fly into enemy territory at low altitude... its top speed would drop to below Mach 1.2 and it would be rather vulnerable.

    Of course for Zircon the issue is that with AWACs support for HATO navies and land forces and air force there is no practical advantage of flying below the radar because the radar touches the ground/water.

    It makes more sense to fly at medium or high altitude above most fighter aircraft interceptors capacity to intercept and above the reach of most SAMs, but also so fast even big long range SAMs can't get you...
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    Post  Isos on Tue Jun 04, 2019 12:10 pm

    Hypersonic top attack missile are almost impossible to intercept. Air defences don't cover to top of the ship. It will need to be defended by another ship more than 10 km away if not more.

    Even then, the missile flies at mach 5 or more which means a little variation of the path and the interceptor missile will see the interception coordinates moving km away. Unless if the interceptor is going at mach 15, it will never be able to catch it up.

    IMO Zirkon will target primarly destroyers as a first wave while kh-22 targets the carriers in a second wave coming seconds after zirkons.
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    Post  Vann7 on Mon Jun 10, 2019 6:20 pm

    What is remarkable about Hypersonic missiles..  that is sustained from start to end
    hypersonic missiles ,something Ballistic nukes don't do... Is that according to one
    American General.. they will only show up in radars in the first phase ,when accelerating
    but not when they are at full speeds... Imagine that for a second.. a missile  that completely
    disappear from radars for being too fast?  Cool

    Now im not making things up..  
    this is exactly what one American pentagon general told...
    and this was not the way i understood the hypersonic challenge..
    i used to believe ,it was only a challenge to intercept it ,if it does many
    abrupt movements ... but he was speaking about a missile that completely
    become invisible in radars.. for its speeds..  Shocked

    So either that Pentagon General was misinformed..
    or US military ,US navy is completely doomed and don't have technology
    to either detect the missiles (with their modern radars)  and even less
    to intercept them.

    Or maybe he exagerated the danger to get more funds for Navy?
    but he did told that.. that they will not be seen on their radars once flying hypersonic phase..

    Maybe he was speaking about their warships radars limitations ,and ground radars or other
    technology in land could at least detect hypersonic missiles.. perhaps Infrared sensors could see them at close range.. either way.. that took me by surprise.. because if what he says is true.. then US navy will be completely slaughtered in a fight vs a squadron of Mig-31 armed with Kinzhal missiles (or Su-57 armed with mini short range hypersonics missiles). and without casualties for the Russian airforce.. Shocked

    if true what he told ,the US navy will be shooting gallery , target practice for Russian
    airforce and if done with stealth planes and fire hypersonic from long distance ,they might not even know they under attack until they see their warships in flames sinking. This is very serious disadvantage for US navy if they can't see hypersonic missiles ,because not even will know they are under attack..so no electronic warfare will be used either to hide their warships a bit.. in fact if the attack use nukes.. or the conventional missile destroy the chain of command in charge of the warship they might not even have a chance to inform they were attacked.. and just dissapear the warships from US satellites network..if they have real time monitoring of every warship movements..
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    Post  GarryB on Tue Jun 11, 2019 8:38 am

    Depends on the radar... a spinning radar that spins perhaps 12 times a minute only scans in the direction of the target 12 times every minute for a few seconds... a target like Zircon that moved about 3km every second with a radar that spins around 12 times a minute means that lets say the target is detected at 600km range... for the next minute the radar will spin a full 360 degrees 12 times so at 0, and then again at 5 seconds and then at 10 seconds and at 15 seconds and 20, 25, 30, 35, 40, 45, 50, 55 seconds and at 60 seconds the radar will be pointing in the direction of the incoming Zircon... now at zero second it detects the Zircon 600km away... say at 50km altitude... 5 seconds later when it comes around and scans there again it will look for the target but the target wont be where it was... it will be 15km closer at 575km range... then at 10 seconds it will be a further 15km closer... so rather than a fairly solid track you will have this dotted line... the high scan rate of 12 rotations a second means the radar will probably only be pointing in the targets direction for a fraction of one second and during that period the target will move a couple of kms... and 5 seconds later will be 15 kms away from where it was... in the minute it takes to complete 12 scans the target missile will have moved 180km closer...

    But now imagine there is not one Zircon... imagine there are 5... and they are not flying straight, they are performing small ducks and weaves as they travel... climbing and descending slightly... not enough to slow them down very much but enough to mean you don't really know which dash is which missile or indeed how many actual missiles their might be... Zircons will get there first so they might be transmitting data down to very low flying missiles that are managing mach 4 or mach 5 along the deck that don't have to climb because they are getting a full picture of your ships from the high flying Zircons based on both their active and passive radar data collected as they close... The Zircons will be moving much faster, but the low flying missiles... perhaps Onyx with new fuels flying at mach 4 7m above the water might have been launched first with the Zircons timed to provide target information just before impact... then the Zircons come in and hit the ships that don't get hit by the Onyx missiles... the Soviets were working on this stuff since the 1970s... it is not new for them at all...
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    Post  Arrow on Wed Jun 12, 2019 12:21 pm

    ircons will get there first so they might be transmitting data down to very low flying missiles that are managing mach 4 or mach 5 along the deck that don't have to climb because they are getting a full picture of your ships from the high flying Zircons based wrote:

    How did they solve this if the plasma surrounding Zircon flying 9M blocked electromagnetic signals?
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    Post  Isos on Wed Jun 12, 2019 12:34 pm

    Arrow wrote:

    How did they solve this if the plasma surrounding Zircon flying 9M blocked electromagnetic signals?

    When you use quotes, write between the two quote tag that appears because you write the quote where normally you should put the name of the one you are quoting.

    [//quote="Arrow here is the one you quote "] here you write the quote[//quote]
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    Post  GarryB on Thu Jun 13, 2019 4:12 am

    How did they solve this if the plasma surrounding Zircon flying 9M blocked electromagnetic signals?

    The DAS system on the MiG-35 is reportedly created by a Russian company that creates laser based secure communications systems used by their military satellites... an IR directed laser communication system could easily pass enormous amounts of information from a high flying missile to a low flying missile moving at a different speed... the information transmitted by coded laser beam would be relatively secure as to intercept you would need to put a laser sensor between the two missiles... one flying high at mach 10 and one flying low at mach 4-5...

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