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    3M22 Zircon / Brahmos II Hypersonic Missile

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    max steel

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    The Coming Of Zircon

    Post  max steel on Thu Feb 23, 2017 3:01 pm

    The Coming Of Zircon


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    Viktor

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    3M22 Zircon / Brahmos II Hypersonic missile

    Post  Viktor on Sat Apr 15, 2017 11:47 am

    Nice  thumbsup  (Zircon achieved Mach-Cool


    https://lenta.ru/news/2017/04/15/cirkon/
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    miketheterrible

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    Re: 3M22 Zircon / Brahmos II Hypersonic Missile

    Post  miketheterrible on Sat Apr 15, 2017 7:58 pm

    I am curious, since it fits in the current tubes of Oniks and Kalibr, I take it that Zircon will also have land attack capabilites? I wonder if eventually replace the current Yakhont missiles inside Bashtion-P?
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    Cyberspec

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    Re: 3M22 Zircon / Brahmos II Hypersonic Missile

    Post  Cyberspec on Sun Apr 16, 2017 12:55 am

    Viktor wrote:Nice thumbsup (Zircon achieved Mach-Cool


    https://lenta.ru/news/2017/04/15/cirkon/

    Wow, Mach 8.Very Happy
    ..sounds very promissing

    miketheterrible wrote:I am curious, since it fits in the current tubes of Oniks and Kalibr, I take it that Zircon will also have land attack capabilites?  I wonder if eventually replace the current Yakhont missiles inside Bashtion-P?

    I would imagine it could be modified to be used against coastal targets same as the Granits were recently used in a exercise.

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    PapaDragon

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    Re: 3M22 Zircon / Brahmos II Hypersonic Missile

    Post  PapaDragon on Sun Apr 16, 2017 1:59 am

    miketheterrible wrote:I am curious, since it fits in the current tubes of Oniks and Kalibr, I take it that Zircon will also have land attack capabilites?  I wonder if eventually replace the current Yakhont missiles inside Bashtion-P?

    It is launched from UKSK so that means yes.

    Although it will be a while. Why would you use it on that would require hypersonic weapon? Iskander is more than enough for foreseeable future.


    QUESTION: Is Mach 8 fast enough to be used as kinetic impactor? confused
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    AlfaT8

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    Re: 3M22 Zircon / Brahmos II Hypersonic Missile

    Post  AlfaT8 on Sun Apr 16, 2017 2:18 am

    PapaDragon wrote:
    miketheterrible wrote:I am curious, since it fits in the current tubes of Oniks and Kalibr, I take it that Zircon will also have land attack capabilites?  I wonder if eventually replace the current Yakhont missiles inside Bashtion-P?

    It is launched from UKSK so that means yes.

    Although it will be a while. Why would you use it on that would require hypersonic weapon? Iskander is more than enough for foreseeable future.


    QUESTION: Is Mach 8 fast enough to be used as kinetic impactor? confused

    Depends what you mean by "kinetic impactor" if you mean some "Rod of God" stuff, than no, you need at least mach 10 for that.
    Nevertheless it'll have some good kinetic force behind it when it hits.
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    Re: 3M22 Zircon / Brahmos II Hypersonic Missile

    Post  PapaDragon on Sun Apr 16, 2017 3:40 am


    Depends what you mean by "kinetic impactor" if you mean some "Rod of God" stuff, than no, you need at least mach 10 for that.
    Nevertheless it'll have some good kinetic force behind it when it hits.

    Got it. So just 2 more Machs to go. Getting there...
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    miketheterrible

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    Re: 3M22 Zircon / Brahmos II Hypersonic Missile

    Post  miketheterrible on Sun Apr 16, 2017 5:01 am

    PapaDragon wrote:

    Depends what you mean by "kinetic impactor" if you mean some "Rod of God" stuff, than no, you need at least mach 10 for that.
    Nevertheless it'll have some good kinetic force behind it when it hits.

    Got it. So just 2 more Machs to go. Getting there...

    Curious, what is the mach on Iskander missile?
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    GarryB

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    Re: 3M22 Zircon / Brahmos II Hypersonic Missile

    Post  GarryB on Sun Apr 16, 2017 7:29 am

    Material from a mach 2 anti ship missile is very effective as shrapnel on impact.

    The speed of most explosives is about mach 4-5 but even moving at mach 2 is sufficient to kill and do damage... a 45 calibre pistol bullet is subsonic... effects on target is about weight AND speed.

    a 2 ton car lowered onto you at 2km/h will kill you more effectively than getting shot in the arm by a 1 gram projectile moving at mach 5.

    Scuds were often loaded with concrete warheads when their range was extended because at mach 7 the fragments of concrete were just as lethal as pieces of metal accelerated by high explosive exploding just above the ground. the difference is that a solid concrete block has more shrapnel than the metal case around the HE warhead and the HE warhead vapourises when it explodes... which means a concrete block is more effective at killing than a HE warhead at that speed or above.

    And yes the zircon would replace Onyx eventually, and will likely be used for land attack too.


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    Re: 3M22 Zircon / Brahmos II Hypersonic Missile

    Post  Isos on Sun Apr 16, 2017 4:05 pm

    And yes the zircon would replace Onyx eventually, and will likely be used for land attack too.

    It's doubtfull that it will have a very long range for that role. Even oniks is 600km in high altitude mode. Speed is not only factor for missiles.
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    Re: 3M22 Zircon / Brahmos II Hypersonic Missile

    Post  Singular_Transform on Sun Apr 16, 2017 7:25 pm

    Isos wrote:
    And yes the zircon would replace Onyx eventually, and will likely be used for land attack too.

    It's doubtfull that it will have a very long range for that role. Even oniks is 600km in high altitude mode. Speed is not only factor for missiles.

    Quite rubbish data.

    An object on a ballistic path with 3 km/sec speed has a range of 458 km.

    It will be accelerated with a solid rocket, and it has a scramjet acceleration phase as well, that is more than 50 km, so the minimum range of the zyrcon is 500 km.

    if the rocket can go 300 km with full propulsion power, keeping the speed only then the range is 800 km.At least.

    The Onyx range as well has to be more than 1000 km.

    The only challenge is the targeting, I think they using the sonar in the SOFAR channel, and maybe than can get targeting data for carriers/ships going with full speed from 1000 km.
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    Re: 3M22 Zircon / Brahmos II Hypersonic Missile

    Post  Singular_Transform on Sun Apr 16, 2017 11:36 pm

    Energy content of an explosive is 3 Mj/kg.
    It is equivalent of the energy content of an aprox. 1.5 km/sec object for kg to kg.

    Means a mach ten 3 km/sec object has for times more energy per weight unit than a smillar masss explosive.


    So, the zyrcon doesn't have any warhead. It makes more sense to carry fuel.

    The vaporisation of the fuel will create an explosion of 30 Mj/kg eqivalent, in oxigen rich atmosphere.
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    max steel

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    Re: 3M22 Zircon / Brahmos II Hypersonic Missile

    Post  max steel on Sun Apr 16, 2017 11:58 pm

    More became known about its range, stated to be around 400 kilometers, what this "around" means nobody knows but it was speculated for a while that it is up to 500 kilometers. But that is not what really matters in this news.

    For me it was a surprise--it was confirmed that Zircon will be launched from standard 3C14 VLS system which is installed on all new Russian frigates and corvettes this adding to Kalibr and Onyx carrying capability. These are not good news for opponents surface component, in fact, these are very very bad news since this capability will be distributed across most platforms, current and perspective, Russian Navy deploys.

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    Re: 3M22 Zircon / Brahmos II Hypersonic Missile

    Post  JohninMK on Mon Apr 17, 2017 12:15 am

    max steel wrote:More  became known about its range, stated to be around 400 kilometers, what this "around" means nobody knows but it was speculated for a while that it is up to 500 kilometers. But that is not what really matters in this news.

    For me it was a surprise--it was confirmed that Zircon will be launched from standard 3C14 VLS system which is installed on all new Russian frigates and corvettes this adding to Kalibr and Onyx carrying capability. These are not good news for opponents surface component, in fact, these are very very bad news since this capability will be distributed across most platforms, current and perspective, Russian Navy deploys.
    Presumably the bad news will be compounded by not knowing for certain which ships have Zircons in their tubes.
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    Re: 3M22 Zircon / Brahmos II Hypersonic Missile

    Post  GarryB on Mon Apr 17, 2017 2:22 am

    The range of weapons for the UKSK will only expand.

    It might eventually include UAVs and UCAVs, and does already include the Klub, Calibr, and Onyx/Yakhont/Brahmos range of missiles.

    It will most likely get Kh-101 and Kh-102 capability too.

    This means land attack capability and anti ship capability and anti sub capability with the mach 2.5 ballistic Klubs launching a torpedo up to 40km away from the ship to attack a submerged submarine.

    Add Zircon soon and who knows what else...


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    Re: 3M22 Zircon / Brahmos II Hypersonic Missile

    Post  AlfaT8 on Mon Apr 17, 2017 3:33 am

    GarryB wrote:The range of weapons for the UKSK will only expand.

    It might eventually include UAVs and UCAVs, and does already include the Klub, Calibr, and Onyx/Yakhont/Brahmos range of missiles.

    It will most likely get Kh-101 and Kh-102 capability too.

    This means land attack capability and anti ship capability and anti sub capability with the mach 2.5 ballistic Klubs launching a torpedo up to 40km away from the ship to attack a submerged submarine.

    Add Zircon soon and who knows what else...

    UCAVs???.... why, UAVs sure, they can be made small enough, but UCAVs need to carry bombs, i don't think the UKSK tube has that kind of space, besides isn't kalibre and soon Zircon more than enough? pirat
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    Re: 3M22 Zircon / Brahmos II Hypersonic Missile

    Post  Singular_Transform on Mon Apr 17, 2017 10:41 pm

    What kind of targeting system the zirkon has?
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    Re: 3M22 Zircon / Brahmos II Hypersonic Missile

    Post  GarryB on Tue Apr 18, 2017 3:16 am

    UCAVs???.... why, UAVs sure, they can be made small enough, but UCAVs need to carry bombs, i don't think the UKSK tube has that kind of space, besides isn't kalibre and soon Zircon more than enough?

    A target of opportunity might present itself during a recon flight... having a section you can eject to attack a target of opportunity might be useful.

    Even just having a light machine gun on a UAV able to fire warning shots at targets.

    The space inside a UKSK tube is huge... just look at the size of the Yakhont... it is 9 metres long and weighs over 2.5 tons.

    There is plenty of space for a UAV and a UCAV.

    A UAV could be used to penetrate enemy airspace in a deniable way with no risk to flight crew. Making it armed means you can do some damage if you need to while doing that.

    What kind of targeting system the zirkon has?

    Most likely radar and possibly electro-optical terminal homing.


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    Re: 3M22 Zircon / Brahmos II Hypersonic Missile

    Post  AlfaT8 on Tue Apr 18, 2017 4:11 am

    GarryB wrote:
    UCAVs???.... why, UAVs sure, they can be made small enough, but UCAVs need to carry bombs, i don't think the UKSK tube has that kind of space, besides isn't kalibre and soon Zircon more than enough?

    A target of opportunity might present itself during a recon flight... having a section you can eject to attack a target of opportunity might be useful.

    Even just having a light machine gun on a UAV able to fire warning shots at targets.

    The space inside a UKSK tube is huge... just look at the size of the Yakhont... it is 9 metres long and weighs over 2.5 tons.

    There is plenty of space for a UAV and a UCAV.

    A UAV could be used to penetrate enemy airspace in a deniable way with no risk to flight crew. Making it armed means you can do some damage if you need to while doing that.

    Yea, i don't buy it. Neutral

    What kind of targeting system the zirkon has?

    Most likely radar and possibly electro-optical terminal homing.

    Most likely all of the above.

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    Re: 3M22 Zircon / Brahmos II Hypersonic Missile

    Post  Vann7 on Tue Apr 18, 2017 6:49 am




    Russia’s hypersonic Zircon anti-ship missile reaches eight times speed of sound




    http://tass.com/defense/941559



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    Singular_Transform

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    Re: 3M22 Zircon / Brahmos II Hypersonic Missile

    Post  Singular_Transform on Tue Apr 18, 2017 10:38 am

    GarryB wrote:
    UCAVs???.... why, UAVs sure, they can be made small enough, but UCAVs need to carry bombs, i don't think the UKSK tube has that kind of space, besides isn't kalibre and soon Zircon more than enough?

    A target of opportunity might present itself during a recon flight... having a section you can eject to attack a target of opportunity might be useful.

    Even just having a light machine gun on a UAV able to fire warning shots at targets.

    The space inside a UKSK tube is huge... just look at the size of the Yakhont... it is 9 metres long and weighs over 2.5 tons.

    There is plenty of space for a UAV and a UCAV.

    A UAV could be used to penetrate enemy airspace in a deniable way with no risk to flight crew. Making it armed means you can do some damage if you need to while doing that.

    What kind of targeting system the zirkon has?

    Most likely radar and possibly electro-optical terminal homing.


    I think it is not that natural.

    The nose of the rocket will be extremely hot, so possibly there is no homing system there.

    It means that an onyx has to deliver the targeting data for it.
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    Re: 3M22 Zircon / Brahmos II Hypersonic Missile

    Post  GarryB on Tue Apr 18, 2017 11:00 am

    The problem of giving a ramjet powered missile speeds greater than mach 5 is the same as flying a turbojet engine at high speed.

    A ramjet or for that matter turbojet engine would choke on supersonic air. Combustion in their hot sections (where the fuel is burned) takes place only at subsonic air flows.

    Now imagine you are a missile flying at mach 4.5... so the air coming in the intake is moving at mach 4.5... you need to compress and slow that air down so that when it gets to the place where the fuel is added it is moving at subsonic speed... and then you burn the fuel which expands it out the rear of the missile... obviously once it is subsonic it takes a lot of fuel to get the exhaust speed high enough to keep the aircraft moving at mach 4.5.

    It is much much easier to go to a scramjet engine where the air does not need to be slowed to subsonic speed, where the fuel is added to the hot section and ignited and burned generating extra speed and thrust...

    The problem is supersonic combustion of fuel... hense scramjet technology.

    Previously if you wanted speeds of mach 4 or more you needed a rocket... now you can use a jet engine it seems.


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    Re: 3M22 Zircon / Brahmos II Hypersonic Missile

    Post  GarryB on Tue Apr 18, 2017 11:05 am


    I think it is not that natural.

    The nose of the rocket will be extremely hot, so possibly there is no homing system there.

    It means that an onyx has to deliver the targeting data for it.

    The IRST on a MiG-29 and Su-27 and for that matter MiG-31 are no where near the tips of their noses.

    The latest model AS-11 has both radar and IR sensors in its nose...

    Yea, i don't buy it.

    Read post number 3 in this thread:

    http://www.russiadefence.net/t2359-indo-russian-brahmos-ii-hypersonic-missile#192027

    In fact read the patent in post 12 on that thread and you will see the Scramjet motor operates best at high altitude, so remaining at high altitude and releasing munitions to fall onto the target and then returning to the launch vessel could be a useful concept...


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    George1

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    Re: 3M22 Zircon / Brahmos II Hypersonic Missile

    Post  George1 on Tue Apr 18, 2017 2:08 pm

    I merged the two threads since its about the same missile


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    Singular_Transform

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    Re: 3M22 Zircon / Brahmos II Hypersonic Missile

    Post  Singular_Transform on Tue Apr 18, 2017 4:41 pm

    GarryB wrote:

    I think it is not that natural.

    The nose of the rocket will be extremely hot, so possibly there is no homing system there.

    It means that an onyx has to deliver the targeting data for it.

    The IRST on a MiG-29 and Su-27 and for that matter MiG-31 are no where near the tips of their noses.

    The latest model AS-11 has both radar and IR sensors in its nose...


    Again, the issue of the sensor is not trivial, the scramjet generating plasma in the front of the nose, so I can not see how you can use forward looking IR sensor or radar .


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