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    3M22 Zircon (Brahmos II) Hypersonic Missile

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    Post  flamming_python on Wed Dec 05, 2018 2:24 pm

    I suspect those speeds will only be achieved at a quasi-ballistic trajectory; part of the Zirkon's initial and main stage.

    In the terminal stage the Zirkon will either drop to sea-skimming altitude or dive onto the target. For both it will have to slow down to supersonic speeds; both for manuevering and for targetting.
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    Post  GarryB on Thu Dec 06, 2018 4:12 am

    With a rocket propulsion like the Iskander then I would agree as it is pretty much accelerate and then glide and then fall to the target, but with this new missile generally the solid rocket booster will accelerate it to something like mach 3-5 or so and then the scramjet engine will accelerate the missile to full speed... from ground or sea surface launches a lot of the energy from the solid rocket booster will be used climbing as well as accelerating, whereas air launched models could use all that solid rocket fuel power to get to high speed.

    The point is that a turbojet engine loses power when it gets to its speed upper limits because the air flowing through it can't flow faster than supersonic speeds, but with a scramjet engine high speeds are not a problem and you can continue to get better thrust as you get faster.

    For a normal jet engine of any type including Ramjet the airflow through the combustion chamber (the hot area of the engine) has to be subsonic for the fuel to burn so as you fly faster and faster you have to slow the air going into the engine down so you can burn fuel... so at mach 2.83 in a MiG-31 the airflow has to be restricted and reduced so that it is subsonic going through the hot parts of the engine... which then has to accelerate the airflow back up to a level where it actually generates thrust instead of drag. This can be helped with bypass air that does not get slowed down, but it is still a challenge because bypass air does not add to thrust in the sense that it on its own wont keep the aircraft at the speed it is going.

    In comparison a supersonic combustion ramjet or scramjet can burn fuel flowing through the engine at the speed it is coming in so it can go out much much faster because it does not need to be slowed down...

    Being a type of jet engine the scramjet can be throttled to use onboard fuel much more efficiently... to add power when needed but to also conserve fuel in a cruise mode when it does not need power.

    I would say the vast majority of the time it will fly high and very fast and will use its ability to manouver to evade defences rather than fly very low to hide from them, because the drag at low altitudes would likely render it supersonic instead of hypersonic...

    Targeting should not be an issue... Iskander has a speed of about mach 7 or so and the air launched Kinzhal model Mach 10 if the numbers are to be believed... from altitude it should be able to spot its targets from enormous distances...
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    Post  Big_Gazza on Thu Dec 06, 2018 10:25 am

    flamming_python wrote:In the terminal stage the Zirkon will either drop to sea-skimming altitude or dive onto the target. For both it will have to slow down to supersonic speeds; both for manuevering and for targetting.

    Why would Zircon need to drop its speed to supersonic for a dive attack? Iskander and Khinzhal don't...
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    Post  hoom on Thu Dec 06, 2018 11:20 am

    Air is thicker down low -> more drag -> for the same thrust you go slower at low altitude.
    Thats not a voluntary slow down though.
    I guess you might need to for thermal reasons?
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    Post  flamming_python on Thu Dec 06, 2018 12:28 pm

    Big_Gazza wrote:
    flamming_python wrote:In the terminal stage the Zirkon will either drop to sea-skimming altitude or dive onto the target. For both it will have to slow down to supersonic speeds; both for manuevering and for targetting.

    Why would Zircon need to drop its speed to supersonic for a dive attack?  Iskander and Khinzhal don't...

    Terminal-stage manuevers against ABMs and corrections for the ship's movements. Even a much slower missile can intercept your hypersonic one if your missile's trajectory is entirely predictable.
    Also, if it's targetting a specific place on the ship, it would need more corrections and it would also need working sensors. Sensors don't work when you've got a thick envelope of plasma engulfing your nosecone as you're moving at Mach 6-7.

    The opacity of plasma to all kinds of signals in particular is a problem that no-one has solved and is even more of a reason why we don't see hypersonic cruise missiles today; more so that the stresses and materials that such speeds require.

    The Iskander has the same problems. It does achieve hypersonic speeds AFAIK but it slows down in the terminal stage.
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    Post  Arrow on Thu Dec 06, 2018 12:35 pm

    lso, if it's targetting a specific place on the ship, it would need more corrections and it would also need working sensors. Sensors don't work when you've got a thick envelope of plasma engulfing your nosecone as you're moving at Mach 6-7. wrote:

    So how S-400 and S-300V are guided. Missile from S-300V4 has 2.6 km/s max speed.
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    Post  Isos on Thu Dec 06, 2018 1:56 pm

    Arrow wrote:

    So how S-400 and S-300V are guided. Missile from S-300V4 has 2.6 km/s max speed.

    Max speed is at high altitude where there is less oxygene so less drag so plasma formation harder to happen.
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    Post  GarryB on Fri Dec 07, 2018 3:40 am

    The Iskander has the same problems. It does achieve hypersonic speeds AFAIK but it slows down in the terminal stage.

    Iskander slows down because it is not ballistic... it has a flight path that is not fully powered... the loss of speed is preferable to slightly higher speed but predictable flight path.

    Iskander also has inertial guidance, and terminal optical guidance.... neither of which are affected by flight speed.

    On the new model of the Kh-58 (AS-11) they have cheek mounted IR sensors... so sensors don't need to be in the tip of the nose... the Igla-1 uses an aerospike to push the air aside so its round nose needed for the IR sensor can be used on a supersonic missile.

    The Mistral MANPAD uses a pointed shape that is aerodynamic, but not so good for the IR sensor being used.
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    Post  flamming_python on Sun Dec 09, 2018 2:35 am

    Isos wrote:
    Arrow wrote:

    So how S-400 and S-300V are guided. Missile from S-300V4 has 2.6 km/s max speed.

    Max speed is at high altitude where there is less oxygene so less drag so plasma formation harder to happen.

    Plus command-guidance from the S-300/S-400 radars even if it does happen

    GarryB wrote:Iskander also has inertial guidance, and terminal optical guidance.... neither of which are affected by flight speed.

    Inertial guidance won't be affected, neither would GLONASS guidance; but any kind of optic, radar-seeking or infrared guidance won't work when you've got that opaque plasma envelope in front of you AFAIK
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    Post  dino00 on Fri Dec 21, 2018 11:14 am

    Russia again successfully tests ship-based hypersonic missile — which will likely be ready for combat by 2022

    POINTS

    Russia has successfully tested a ship-based hypersonic missile the United States is currently unable to defend against, according to people with direct knowledge of U.S. intelligence reports.

    The weapon is expected to join Moscow’s arsenal by 2022.

    The latest development gives the U.S. even more ground to make up as Russia and China bolster their arsenals with hypersonic weapons at a breakneck pace

    Russia has successfully tested a ship-based hypersonic missile the United States is currently unable to defend against, according to people with direct knowledge of U.S. intelligence reports.
    The weapon is expected to join Moscow’s arsenal by 2022.

    WASHINGTON — Russia has conducted another successful test of its ship-based hypersonic missile, a weapon the United States is currently unable to defend against, according to two people with direct knowledge of a U.S. intelligence report.

    The people, who spoke to CNBC on the condition of anonymity, said Russia has carried out five total tests of its ship-based hypersonic missile since 2015.

    The last known test of the device, dubbed “Tsirkon,” was successfully conducted Dec. 10 and reached a top speed of Mach 8, approximately eight times the speed of sound, or about two miles per second.

    What we are seeing with this particular weapon is that the Russians designed it to have a dual-purpose capability, meaning, it can be used against a target on land as well as a vessel at sea,” one source explained. “Last week’s successful test showed that the Russians were able to achieve sustained flight, a feat that is crucial in the development of hypersonic weapons.

    The U.S. intelligence report, according to one source, noted that production of the missile is slated to begin in 2021 and it will join the Kremlin’s arsenal no earlier than 2022.

    https://www.cnbc.com/2018/12/20/russia-tests-hypersonic-missile-that-could-be-ready-for-war-by-2022.html

    The Arrow mhytical Zirkon from American sources!
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    Post  dino00 on Fri Dec 21, 2018 3:15 pm

    MOSCOW, Dec 21 - RIA News . The developer of the ship-based hypersonic rocket "Zirkon" - the NPO of mechanical engineering - did not comment on the information about the successful tests of the rocket.

    https://ria.ru/20181221/1548417609.html
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    Post  dino00 on Fri Dec 21, 2018 4:10 pm

    Source: More than 10 launches of Zircon on marine targets have been conducted since the beginning of its tests.

    According to the agency interlocutor, "rocket tests began about four years ago" and are continuing now from the coastal stand


    MOSCOW, December 21. / TASS /. More than 10 launches of the Russian Zircon hypersonic missile at sea targets at ranges of several hundred kilometers have been carried out since the beginning of its tests. This was announced on Friday Tass source in the military-industrial complex.

    According to him, "rocket tests began about four years ago," and are continuing now from the coastal stand. "In total, more than 10 target firing at sea at a distance of several hundred kilometers have been completed," the agency’s source said. He added that "the rocket repeatedly hit targets that marked sea targets at hypersonic speed."

    The source refused to name the date of the last test.

    https://tass.ru/armiya-i-opk/5942271
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    Post  dino00 on Mon Jan 21, 2019 10:18 pm

    Compact hypersound: Navy will receive lightweight Zircon missiles

    "Rocket kids" equip new weapons

    The Defense Ministry will receive a miniature version of the Zircon hypersonic rocket. First of all, it should be equipped with small rocket ships (MRK) of the Karakurt and Buyan-M projects. Also, the rocket will be adapted for launches from a special container. Previously, the "Zircon" was to be installed on nuclear cruisers and nuclear submarines, as well as frigates. The appearance of "light" hypersonic missiles will affect the tactics of the Navy. IRAs and submarines operating from ambushes will not allow enemy attack forces to approach the Russian coast.

    The Chief of the Naval Forces "Izvestia" was told that the tactical and technical requirements for the new version of the "Zircon" have already been formed. "Miniature" will not greatly affect the basic characteristics of the rocket. In terms of the destructive power, she practically will not yield to her “elder sister”. First of all, “Zircons” should arm the IRAs of the project 22800 “Karakurt” and the IRAs of the project 21631 “Buyan-M”. Both types of IRAs are equipped with Caliber cruise missiles and Onyx supersonic anti-ship missiles. The appearance of "Zircons" on board small rocket ships will allow them to fight any adversary.

    Finally, anti-ship missiles can hit ground targets with predetermined coordinates. Such opportunities are especially in demand in coastal areas, where RTOs and submarines will have to counteract not only enemy ships, but also help their ground forces.

    “Zircon” is adapted for firing from existing launchers, but with small-scale rockets and submarines, it is better to use small missiles, military expert, MilitaryRussia editor Dmitry Kornev told Izvestia.

    “A lightweight rocket is likely to have the same engine, but it will receive a slightly smaller warhead, a supply of fuel and a number of structural elements,” he believes. - It is highly likely that the starting accelerator of the product is also modified - it is very powerful at the Zircon.

    More
    https://iz.ru/833837/aleksei-ramm-bogdan-stepovoi/kompaktnyi-giperzvuk-vmf-poluchit-oblegchennye-rakety-tcirkon
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    Post  hoom on Mon Jan 21, 2019 11:32 pm

    Thats a super-confusing article.

    Are they saying full size Zircon doesn't fit in UKSK -> 22800 & Buyan-M need a smaller version to fit?
    If it doesn't fit UKSK then what ships will actually fit full size Zircon? Oscar & Slavas etc with older larger tubes? scratch

    Or are they saying they will have a smaller version that fits Uran equipped ships & non-VLS subs like Kilos?
    That would be a very cool way of giving a lot more firepower to those ships.
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    Post  magnumcromagnon on Tue Jan 22, 2019 12:48 am

    hoom wrote:Thats a super-confusing article.

    Are they saying full size Zircon doesn't fit in UKSK -> 22800 & Buyan-M need a smaller version to fit?
    If it doesn't fit UKSK then what ships will actually fit full size Zircon? Oscar & Slavas etc with older larger tubes?  scratch

    Or are they saying they will have a smaller version that fits Uran equipped ships & non-VLS subs like Kilos?
    That would be a very cool way of giving a lot more firepower to those ships.

    It might be a way to increase the max amount of hypersonic missiles. It could be a version that flies at the same speed (mach 8 ), but somewhat shortened range and smaller warhead, but with a diameter 50% less than normal Zircon, allowing 4 micro-Zircons to fit in the same tube. It could be the case that the normal sized Zircon should be focused on ships the size of Wasp-class carriers and above, and where as the micro-Zircon will be used on anything below like Arleigh-Burke class destroyers, etc.
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    Post  GarryB on Tue Jan 22, 2019 6:24 am

    I suspect the new full Zircon is designed to fit in the UKSK-M launcher, which might be longer and wider than the current system... possibly to allow S-500s to be launched from it...

    A reduced size Zircon missile is being developed to fit standard UKSK launch tubes... which is not really new... there is a reduced size Brahmos-M that is smaller and lighter and faster and an Su-30 can carry three instead of just one with original bigger and heavier Brahmos I.
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    Post  ATLASCUB on Tue Jan 22, 2019 7:35 am

    Do we have any rough/early prototype schematics or concept pics of the missile?
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    Post  hoom on Tue Jan 22, 2019 10:52 am

    I suspect the new full Zircon is designed to fit in the UKSK-M launcher, which might be longer and wider than the current system
    I have similar suspicion but that means not only 22800 & Buyan-M can't carry it but also 11356, 20385, 22350 & even Nakhimov won't be able to carry it either which completely defeats the purpose.

    Do we have any rough/early prototype schematics or concept pics of the missile?
    Not from Russia no.
    Only clue is the Brahmos II model the Indians have shown at defense shows.
    3M22 Zircon (Brahmos II) Hypersonic Missile - Page 7 Brahmos-2_1
    If we assume that its a similar deal to Onyx/Brahmos I ie Russian body/engine with indigenous Indian electronics and that the model is actually a legit indicator of the actual design then this is what Zircon looks like.

    A lot of articles show pics of Boeing X-51 Waverider incorrectly/not labeled.
    3M22 Zircon (Brahmos II) Hypersonic Missile - Page 7 X-51A_Waverider_on_B-52_2009
    Frankly the Brahmos II model looks like a straight copy of that to me.
    So either Zircon is externally a near exact copy of X-51 or Zircon isn't properly represented by the Brahmos II model.
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    Post  GarryB on Tue Jan 22, 2019 9:55 pm

    How do you know the Boeing model isn't just a copy of a Russian design that was stolen in the 1990s?

    I have seen those sort of flat shaped designs for decades... these are hardly new designs.

    I have similar suspicion but that means not only 22800 & Buyan-M can't carry it but also 11356, 20385, 22350 & even Nakhimov won't be able to carry it either which completely defeats the purpose.

    I thought the article was pretty clear... the new full sized Zircon missile is for cruisers, destroyers, and Submarines, while for small vessels like missile boats and Frigates they will use this new smaller missile.

    Which suggests vessels larger than Frigates will get the UKSK-M launchers...
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    Post  Hole on Tue Jan 22, 2019 10:17 pm

    3M22 Zircon (Brahmos II) Hypersonic Missile - Page 7 000514

    Kh-90 from the 80´s.
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    Post  hoom on Tue Jan 22, 2019 11:25 pm

    I thought the article was pretty clear... the new full sized Zircon missile is for cruisers, destroyers, and Submarines, while for small vessels like missile boats and Frigates they will use this new smaller missile.

    Which suggests vessels larger than Frigates will get the UKSK-M launchers...
    But Grigorovich, Gorshkov, Gremy, Severodvinsk & Nakhimov all have the current UKSK which is same size as the ones on Buyan-M & 22800s.
    As far as we know there hasn't even been any ships laid down with UKSK-M let alone any near service, Zirkon is supposed to be going into service this year.
    If the naval missile Zirkon doesn'tfit the UKSK in service with the navy its hard to see that it can go into service -> logically if its going into service this year it must fit the existing UKSK including on 22800 & Buyan-M.


    How do you know the Boeing model isn't just a copy of a Russian design that was stolen in the 1990s?
    Yeah thats a very interesting little rabbit-hole I'm currently going down, lots of interesting info on Russian hypersonic research at http://www.russianspaceweb.com/kholod.html & related pages
    3M22 Zircon (Brahmos II) Hypersonic Missile - Page 7 1280px-Kholod
    (that nose engine cropping up on artillery shells now!)
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    Post  dino00 on Wed Feb 20, 2019 11:56 am

    https://twitter.com/RT_com/status/1098170161511698433?s=19

    Putin presented Zirkon:

    Mach 9

    1000KM+

    Submarine/Ship launched

    400 km range?? Very Happy Very Happy
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    Post  Isos on Wed Feb 20, 2019 12:02 pm

    dino00 wrote:https://twitter.com/RT_com/status/1098170161511698433?s=19

    Putin presented Zirkon:

    Mach 9

    1000KM+

    Submarine/Ship launched

    400 km range?? Very Happy Very Happy

    The big question is Do they have a ship able to launch it ? Uksk seems to be to small according to what they said for this one. That's why maybe they don't show any image.
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    Post  dino00 on Wed Feb 20, 2019 12:06 pm

    Putin: work on the Zircon hypersonic missile is going well and will be completed on time

    The President said that this rocket is able to develop a speed of about nine Machs


    MOSCOW, February 20. / TASS /. Russian President Vladimir Putin said that work on a hypersonic Zircon rocket capable of developing speeds of up to nine machs is on
    schedule and will be completed on time.

    “Today I also consider it possible to officially inform you about another promising new product,” the Russian leader said in his message to the Federal Assembly, recalling that during the announcement of the message last year, he promised to gradually talk about new weapons. “We’ll say a little We are there in store. So, another promising new product, the work on which is going well and in the planned timeframe, will certainly be completed, and I want to say about the hypersonic Zircon rocket.

    Putin said that this rocket is capable of developing a flight speed of about nine machs, and its range can be more than 1 thousand km. At the same time, it is capable of hitting both sea and land targets.

    "Its application is provided for from sea carriers of mass-produced surface ships and submarines, including the Kalibr precision weapons already manufactured and being built for missile systems," the president explained, emphasizing that putting on combat duty of new weapons would not be expensive.

    The Russian leader also said that seven new multipurpose submarines would be handed over to the Russian Navy to protect the national interests of Russia two to three years earlier than the deadlines set by the state armaments program, and five surface ships of the far sea zone would be laid down in the near future.

    Another 16 ships of this class will be introduced into the Navy until 2027.

    https://tass.ru/armiya-i-opk/6138247
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    Post  dino00 on Wed Feb 20, 2019 12:09 pm

    Isos wrote:
    dino00 wrote:https://twitter.com/RT_com/status/1098170161511698433?s=19

    Putin presented Zirkon:

    Mach 9

    1000KM+

    Submarine/Ship launched

    400 km range?? Very Happy Very Happy

    The big question is Do they have a ship able to launch it ? Uksk seems to be to small according to what they said for this one. That's why maybe they don't show any image.

    They have ships/subs already able to shoot them ser post above...Why show the missile?

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