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    3M22 Zircon (Brahmos II) Hypersonic Missile

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    GarryB

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    Re: 3M22 Zircon (Brahmos II) Hypersonic Missile

    Post  GarryB on Wed Dec 05, 2018 11:16 am

    Didn't they claim it was tested to 8 M?

    I rather suspect the first ones might get the mach 6-7 speed, but as they improve the design and create more effective and more efficient engines the speed will only increase... I remember them talking about speed of between mach 6 and mach 8... which is fully twice as fast as Onyx.
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    flamming_python

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    Re: 3M22 Zircon (Brahmos II) Hypersonic Missile

    Post  flamming_python on Wed Dec 05, 2018 2:24 pm

    I suspect those speeds will only be achieved at a quasi-ballistic trajectory; part of the Zirkon's initial and main stage.

    In the terminal stage the Zirkon will either drop to sea-skimming altitude or dive onto the target. For both it will have to slow down to supersonic speeds; both for manuevering and for targetting.
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    GarryB

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    Re: 3M22 Zircon (Brahmos II) Hypersonic Missile

    Post  GarryB on Thu Dec 06, 2018 4:12 am

    With a rocket propulsion like the Iskander then I would agree as it is pretty much accelerate and then glide and then fall to the target, but with this new missile generally the solid rocket booster will accelerate it to something like mach 3-5 or so and then the scramjet engine will accelerate the missile to full speed... from ground or sea surface launches a lot of the energy from the solid rocket booster will be used climbing as well as accelerating, whereas air launched models could use all that solid rocket fuel power to get to high speed.

    The point is that a turbojet engine loses power when it gets to its speed upper limits because the air flowing through it can't flow faster than supersonic speeds, but with a scramjet engine high speeds are not a problem and you can continue to get better thrust as you get faster.

    For a normal jet engine of any type including Ramjet the airflow through the combustion chamber (the hot area of the engine) has to be subsonic for the fuel to burn so as you fly faster and faster you have to slow the air going into the engine down so you can burn fuel... so at mach 2.83 in a MiG-31 the airflow has to be restricted and reduced so that it is subsonic going through the hot parts of the engine... which then has to accelerate the airflow back up to a level where it actually generates thrust instead of drag. This can be helped with bypass air that does not get slowed down, but it is still a challenge because bypass air does not add to thrust in the sense that it on its own wont keep the aircraft at the speed it is going.

    In comparison a supersonic combustion ramjet or scramjet can burn fuel flowing through the engine at the speed it is coming in so it can go out much much faster because it does not need to be slowed down...

    Being a type of jet engine the scramjet can be throttled to use onboard fuel much more efficiently... to add power when needed but to also conserve fuel in a cruise mode when it does not need power.

    I would say the vast majority of the time it will fly high and very fast and will use its ability to manouver to evade defences rather than fly very low to hide from them, because the drag at low altitudes would likely render it supersonic instead of hypersonic...

    Targeting should not be an issue... Iskander has a speed of about mach 7 or so and the air launched Kinzhal model Mach 10 if the numbers are to be believed... from altitude it should be able to spot its targets from enormous distances...
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    Big_Gazza

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    Re: 3M22 Zircon (Brahmos II) Hypersonic Missile

    Post  Big_Gazza on Thu Dec 06, 2018 10:25 am

    flamming_python wrote:In the terminal stage the Zirkon will either drop to sea-skimming altitude or dive onto the target. For both it will have to slow down to supersonic speeds; both for manuevering and for targetting.

    Why would Zircon need to drop its speed to supersonic for a dive attack? Iskander and Khinzhal don't...

    hoom

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    Re: 3M22 Zircon (Brahmos II) Hypersonic Missile

    Post  hoom on Thu Dec 06, 2018 11:20 am

    Air is thicker down low -> more drag -> for the same thrust you go slower at low altitude.
    Thats not a voluntary slow down though.
    I guess you might need to for thermal reasons?
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    flamming_python

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    Re: 3M22 Zircon (Brahmos II) Hypersonic Missile

    Post  flamming_python on Thu Dec 06, 2018 12:28 pm

    Big_Gazza wrote:
    flamming_python wrote:In the terminal stage the Zirkon will either drop to sea-skimming altitude or dive onto the target. For both it will have to slow down to supersonic speeds; both for manuevering and for targetting.

    Why would Zircon need to drop its speed to supersonic for a dive attack?  Iskander and Khinzhal don't...

    Terminal-stage manuevers against ABMs and corrections for the ship's movements. Even a much slower missile can intercept your hypersonic one if your missile's trajectory is entirely predictable.
    Also, if it's targetting a specific place on the ship, it would need more corrections and it would also need working sensors. Sensors don't work when you've got a thick envelope of plasma engulfing your nosecone as you're moving at Mach 6-7.

    The opacity of plasma to all kinds of signals in particular is a problem that no-one has solved and is even more of a reason why we don't see hypersonic cruise missiles today; more so that the stresses and materials that such speeds require.

    The Iskander has the same problems. It does achieve hypersonic speeds AFAIK but it slows down in the terminal stage.

    Arrow

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    Re: 3M22 Zircon (Brahmos II) Hypersonic Missile

    Post  Arrow on Thu Dec 06, 2018 12:35 pm

    lso, if it's targetting a specific place on the ship, it would need more corrections and it would also need working sensors. Sensors don't work when you've got a thick envelope of plasma engulfing your nosecone as you're moving at Mach 6-7. wrote:

    So how S-400 and S-300V are guided. Missile from S-300V4 has 2.6 km/s max speed.
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    Isos

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    Re: 3M22 Zircon (Brahmos II) Hypersonic Missile

    Post  Isos on Thu Dec 06, 2018 1:56 pm

    Arrow wrote:

    So how S-400 and S-300V are guided. Missile from S-300V4 has 2.6 km/s max speed.

    Max speed is at high altitude where there is less oxygene so less drag so plasma formation harder to happen.
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    GarryB

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    Re: 3M22 Zircon (Brahmos II) Hypersonic Missile

    Post  GarryB on Fri Dec 07, 2018 3:40 am

    The Iskander has the same problems. It does achieve hypersonic speeds AFAIK but it slows down in the terminal stage.

    Iskander slows down because it is not ballistic... it has a flight path that is not fully powered... the loss of speed is preferable to slightly higher speed but predictable flight path.

    Iskander also has inertial guidance, and terminal optical guidance.... neither of which are affected by flight speed.

    On the new model of the Kh-58 (AS-11) they have cheek mounted IR sensors... so sensors don't need to be in the tip of the nose... the Igla-1 uses an aerospike to push the air aside so its round nose needed for the IR sensor can be used on a supersonic missile.

    The Mistral MANPAD uses a pointed shape that is aerodynamic, but not so good for the IR sensor being used.
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    flamming_python

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    Re: 3M22 Zircon (Brahmos II) Hypersonic Missile

    Post  flamming_python on Sun Dec 09, 2018 2:35 am

    Isos wrote:
    Arrow wrote:

    So how S-400 and S-300V are guided. Missile from S-300V4 has 2.6 km/s max speed.

    Max speed is at high altitude where there is less oxygene so less drag so plasma formation harder to happen.

    Plus command-guidance from the S-300/S-400 radars even if it does happen

    GarryB wrote:Iskander also has inertial guidance, and terminal optical guidance.... neither of which are affected by flight speed.

    Inertial guidance won't be affected, neither would GLONASS guidance; but any kind of optic, radar-seeking or infrared guidance won't work when you've got that opaque plasma envelope in front of you AFAIK
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    dino00

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    Re: 3M22 Zircon (Brahmos II) Hypersonic Missile

    Post  dino00 on Fri Dec 21, 2018 11:14 am

    Russia again successfully tests ship-based hypersonic missile — which will likely be ready for combat by 2022

    POINTS

    Russia has successfully tested a ship-based hypersonic missile the United States is currently unable to defend against, according to people with direct knowledge of U.S. intelligence reports.

    The weapon is expected to join Moscow’s arsenal by 2022.

    The latest development gives the U.S. even more ground to make up as Russia and China bolster their arsenals with hypersonic weapons at a breakneck pace

    Russia has successfully tested a ship-based hypersonic missile the United States is currently unable to defend against, according to people with direct knowledge of U.S. intelligence reports.
    The weapon is expected to join Moscow’s arsenal by 2022.

    WASHINGTON — Russia has conducted another successful test of its ship-based hypersonic missile, a weapon the United States is currently unable to defend against, according to two people with direct knowledge of a U.S. intelligence report.

    The people, who spoke to CNBC on the condition of anonymity, said Russia has carried out five total tests of its ship-based hypersonic missile since 2015.

    The last known test of the device, dubbed “Tsirkon,” was successfully conducted Dec. 10 and reached a top speed of Mach 8, approximately eight times the speed of sound, or about two miles per second.

    What we are seeing with this particular weapon is that the Russians designed it to have a dual-purpose capability, meaning, it can be used against a target on land as well as a vessel at sea,” one source explained. “Last week’s successful test showed that the Russians were able to achieve sustained flight, a feat that is crucial in the development of hypersonic weapons.

    The U.S. intelligence report, according to one source, noted that production of the missile is slated to begin in 2021 and it will join the Kremlin’s arsenal no earlier than 2022.

    https://www.cnbc.com/2018/12/20/russia-tests-hypersonic-missile-that-could-be-ready-for-war-by-2022.html

    The Arrow mhytical Zirkon from American sources!
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    dino00

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    Re: 3M22 Zircon (Brahmos II) Hypersonic Missile

    Post  dino00 on Fri Dec 21, 2018 3:15 pm

    MOSCOW, Dec 21 - RIA News . The developer of the ship-based hypersonic rocket "Zirkon" - the NPO of mechanical engineering - did not comment on the information about the successful tests of the rocket.

    https://ria.ru/20181221/1548417609.html
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    dino00

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    Re: 3M22 Zircon (Brahmos II) Hypersonic Missile

    Post  dino00 on Fri Dec 21, 2018 4:10 pm

    Source: More than 10 launches of Zircon on marine targets have been conducted since the beginning of its tests.

    According to the agency interlocutor, "rocket tests began about four years ago" and are continuing now from the coastal stand


    MOSCOW, December 21. / TASS /. More than 10 launches of the Russian Zircon hypersonic missile at sea targets at ranges of several hundred kilometers have been carried out since the beginning of its tests. This was announced on Friday Tass source in the military-industrial complex.

    According to him, "rocket tests began about four years ago," and are continuing now from the coastal stand. "In total, more than 10 target firing at sea at a distance of several hundred kilometers have been completed," the agency’s source said. He added that "the rocket repeatedly hit targets that marked sea targets at hypersonic speed."

    The source refused to name the date of the last test.

    https://tass.ru/armiya-i-opk/5942271

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