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    State Armaments Program 2011-2020

    TR1
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    Post  TR1 on Sun Aug 11, 2013 10:10 pm

    [quote="sepheronx"]
    Flanky wrote:  Since Su-27's in Russian service (and upgrades) are using the N001V radar, why not add the Pero antenna?  Why not upgrade the processor to either the newer Elbrus 2C+ or other such processors?  Not much is known about the N001 radar, but upgrading them with modern components may give new life and much greater performance.
    The Su-27SM uses the N001VP. Range wise it is at least as capable as most NATO F-16s...their radar power is not impressive at all.
    Upgrading older Su-27s is pointless because they don't have the service life to operate past this decade. New birds make far more sense.
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    Post  mack8 on Mon Aug 12, 2013 12:58 am

    I need to re-check some of the written stuff i have, but is it sure that Su-27SM has the N-001VP and not the N-001V? I thought it's SM with N-001V, then Su-27SM3 and Su-30M2 with N-001VP. I might be mistaken though.
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    Post  sepheronx on Mon Aug 12, 2013 1:19 am

    TR1 wrote:
    sepheronx wrote:
    TR1 wrote:The Zhuk-A is only being fitted in MiG-29M generation airframes and spin offs.

    I have seen no indication of it being fitted into the legacy 9-12/9-13 aiframe, and export birds are all (save MiG-29K) so far the first gen airframes.

    Also 124 Su-34s is pathetic? lol. You might wanna check Russia's budget.
    SAP-2020 is budget for procurement.  $600B, about 25% or more is for the airforce.  That is a lot of money.  They could effectively purchase more Su-30MKI's than India has in service, and plus much more.  This is an example of course.  124 Su-34's is a decent number, yes, but overall, kinda pathetic since the Su-24's were needed to be replaced yesterday.  Then there is of course the Su-27's and MiG-29's in service, of which many's airframe are past life expectancy, and Su-27's still using the older N001V radar, which is also in need of replacement because they are just not capable of even dealing with modern F-15's or F-16's.
    Wrong. 600 billion is not just for procurement.

    When you consider the amount of spending the VVS has (increased personel pay, airfield restructuring, navigational equipment, munitions, SAM,) the purchase of ~350+ new Flanker airframes in the 2020 timeframe is very healthy considering the Russian budget.
    The VVS is also buying a crapton of helicopters, hell they are purchasing around 300 attack helos alone.

    Also airframes that are past service life are not in service....because they don't fly once airframe life is exhausted.
    Majority of the SAP2020 is for procurement while a large portion of it is indeed going to the MiC in order to upgrade their facilities.  I don't entirely remember the amount, but it was about $100B for the VVS and that is a lot of money.  Regardless, they could very well spend a lot of it on procurement as well as upgrades.

    TR1 wrote:
    sepheronx wrote:
    Flanky wrote:  Since Su-27's in Russian service (and upgrades) are using the N001V radar, why not add the Pero antenna?  Why not upgrade the processor to either the newer Elbrus 2C+ or other such processors?  Not much is known about the N001 radar, but upgrading them with modern components may give new life and much greater performance.
    The Su-27SM uses the N001VP. Range wise it is at least as capable as most NATO F-16s...their radar power is not impressive at all.
    Upgrading older Su-27s is pointless because they don't have the service life to operate past this decade. New birds make far more sense.
    Cannot remember entirely, but I think majority of the Su-27's in RuAF, at least the Su-27P, are mid/late 80's to early 90's and thus, have plenty of time left in them to fly.  Only issue is their avionics packages need modernization.  Russia have decided to continue to use the Su-24's for quite some time, giving them some pretty decent upgrades, and those are older than the Su-27's in Russian service.  They could indeed get much more life out of them.

    As for the N001VP radar, even if it is as good as the latest F-16's radar (I doubt that very much, as newer radar for F-16's, especially for countries like Saudi Arabia and Israel) are AESA radars and not mechanical like the N001 radar,  is still not good as F-16 is a much smaller aircraft and Su-27's radar should be more comparable to F-15 and F-18's radar, which I don't think it is, and those are the two jets Su-27's would be facing more so than F-16's if a conflict ever ensued.

    If they cannot afford to have Su-35's in numbers, they should go with an aircraft that they can build in numbers, rather than having all these different type of aircrafts.  For instance, maybe go with just the Su-35S rather than Su-30SM, or Su-30SM or M2's in numbers.  Or, Su-27SM3 are newer builds, so continue with them, implement Su-30M2 and Su-35 electronics, and upgrade the radar itself would be also another cheaper alternative. Although, if anyone can find me any newer information on N001 and its variant upgrades, I would appreciate it.
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    Post  GarryB on Mon Aug 12, 2013 1:13 pm

    Cannot remember entirely, but I think majority of the Su-27's in RuAF, at least the Su-27P, are mid/late 80's to early 90's and thus, have plenty of time left in them to fly.
    Most are obsolete and in need of a full overhaul and replacement of all avionics and engines... and after all that you end up with an upgraded old plane.

    It makes rather more sense to write off most of the old planes that might have been stored in the open or had parts removed during storage, and gradually introduce new build aircraft with new airframes built in Russian factories by Russian workers using Russian parts.

    There is no immediate need to match NATO... no individual NATO member would dare attack Russia, and collectively I doubt all of them will band together against Russia for anything anyway.

    NATO planes are very active over Russia tansfering equipment and men to Afghanistan... they wont do anything to jeoparise that any time soon... at least till 2014... and 2015 is the IOC date of a lot of new stuff...

    For instance, maybe go with just the Su-35S rather than Su-30SM, or Su-30SM or M2's in numbers.
    It is cheaper to buy about 100 Su-35s, 150 Su-30SMs, and maybe 50 Mig-35s and 100 Mig-29M2s and of course perhaps 80 odd PAK FAs up to 2020 than to buy 300 Su-35s and 80 PAK FAs.

    Not every fighter needs super long range and huge numbers of missiles etc etc.

    Equally keeping lots of different factories busy after closing so many down means you keep more people in work and happy.

    There is no urgent reason to get lots of top of the line fighter inter service right now.

    It is important to make sure the new planes are properly maintained and supplied with modern weapons and properly housed to ensure they last.
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    Post  flamming_python on Mon Aug 12, 2013 9:29 pm

    I'd imagine that the Su-27s and MiG-29s that are not going to under the hammer and receive modernisation are going to be put into reserve anyhow; the ones in good condition anyway. I doubt they would scrap these planes for the foreseeable future. So, it's not as if all is lost. In case of war, these planes can be given a spit n' shine and put back into action.
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    Post  GarryB on Tue Aug 13, 2013 12:40 pm

    Wonder what they have done with all those single engine fighters they withdrew in the 1990s... Mig-15s, Mig-17s, Mig-21s, Mig-23s, Mig-27s, Su-7s, Su-17s, Su-22s, Su-11s...
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    Post  sepheronx on Sat Aug 17, 2013 5:25 pm

    GarryB wrote:Wonder what they have done with all those single engine fighters they withdrew in the 1990s...  Mig-15s, Mig-17s, Mig-21s, Mig-23s, Mig-27s, Su-7s, Su-17s, Su-22s, Su-11s...
    I would say that a new single jet engined aircraft should have been made or designed.  I got bomblasted by a kid on MP.net for even thinking it or suggesting it, but I truly think a cheap single jet engined aircraft, incorporating technologies found from Su-35, MiG-35 and PAK FA, would have been something really important.  Think about it, Zhuk-A radar aircraft using RD-93 engines, onboard computer as well as OLS from Su-35 and some LO material technology from PAK FA program.  Borrow already technologies existing, and push for its development.  That could very well lower the price of the aircraft as well as be able to build them en mass for cheaper.

    My opinion of course.

    GarryB wrote:
    Cannot remember entirely, but I think majority of the Su-27's in RuAF, at least the Su-27P, are mid/late 80's to early 90's and thus, have plenty of time left in them to fly.
    Most are obsolete and in need of a full overhaul and replacement of all avionics and engines... and after all that you end up with an upgraded old plane.

    It makes rather more sense to write off most of the old planes that might have been stored in the open or had parts removed during storage, and gradually introduce new build aircraft with new airframes built in Russian factories by Russian workers using Russian parts.

    There is no immediate need to match NATO... no individual NATO member would dare attack Russia, and collectively I doubt all of them will band together against Russia for anything anyway.

    NATO planes are very active over Russia tansfering equipment and men to Afghanistan... they wont do anything to jeoparise that any time soon... at least till 2014... and 2015 is the IOC date of a lot of new stuff...

    For instance, maybe go with just the Su-35S rather than Su-30SM, or Su-30SM or M2's in numbers.  
    It is cheaper to buy about 100 Su-35s, 150 Su-30SMs, and maybe 50 Mig-35s and 100 Mig-29M2s and of course perhaps 80 odd PAK FAs up to 2020 than to buy 300 Su-35s and 80 PAK FAs.

    Not every fighter needs super long range and huge numbers of missiles etc etc.

    Equally keeping lots of different factories busy after closing so many down means you keep more people in work and happy.

    There is no urgent reason to get lots of top of the line fighter inter service right now.

    It is important to make sure the new planes are properly maintained and supplied with modern weapons and properly housed to ensure they last.
    Kinda late on the reply, but thanks for some of the info.  But I would say that having something like 200 or so Su-35's, 200 Su-27SM3's and 200 or more Su-34's is better sounding, with the odd PAK FA being built for in service and testing.  Su-27SM3 would be great as it is still very capable of semi-older technology, as well as cheaper to build.  Su-34's being far better for strike capabilities and Su-35 for air superiority.  Even with those numbers, it would still not be very impressive, but at least it would be great with the current aircrafts already in service, getting some minimal upgrades.
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    Post  TR1 on Sat Aug 17, 2013 10:19 pm

    Not very impressive?

    Seraphonx you list 600 new/upgraded Flanker aiframes and think its unimpressive?

    You seriously need to come with the reality that Russia's budget is not the USSRs, and for the budget size Russia already operates a far bigger force than Western European air forces.
    A sub 100-billion per year budget cannot afford to replace the fleet on a one-to-one basis.

    The AF is downsizing- nothing in the universe will change that.
    We suspected the downsizing would be even worse, but its looking pretty good so far: Around 400 new 4th gens before 2020, which will then be supplanted with PAK-FA/Sha/DA when they come arround.
    This is quite frankly a far better prognosis than several years ago.
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    Post  Deep Throat on Sat Aug 17, 2013 10:51 pm

    TR1 wrote:PAK-FA/Sha/DA when they come arround.
    Which one is "Sha" ?
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    Post  TR1 on Sat Aug 17, 2013 11:14 pm

    Deep Throat wrote:
    TR1 wrote:PAK-FA/Sha/DA when they come arround.
    Which one is "Sha" ?
    Su-25 replacement.
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    Post  sepheronx on Sun Aug 18, 2013 3:34 am

    TR1 wrote:Not very impressive?

    Seraphonx you list 600 new/upgraded Flanker aiframes and think its unimpressive?

    You seriously need to come with the reality that Russia's budget is not the USSRs, and for the budget size Russia already operates a far bigger force than Western European air forces.
    A sub 100-billion per year budget cannot afford to replace the fleet on a one-to-one basis.

    The AF is downsizing- nothing in the universe will change that.
    We suspected the downsizing would be even worse, but its looking pretty good so far: Around 400 new 4th gens before 2020, which will then be supplanted with PAK-FA/Sha/DA when they come arround.
    This is quite frankly a far better prognosis than several years ago.
    You need to come to terms with the size of Russia vs the rest of the world, and the huge disparity between regions.  This fact alone is why Russia still operates MiG-31's (interceptors) while USA no longer operates Interceptors.  The other issue is the potential conflicts that could arise in the future, and Russia needs to have a capable airforce to deal with it.  USA alone is replacing over 2000 aircrafts with F-35's.  Add on to the other NATO countries and Russia's 400 new aircrafts are pathetic (I read that SAP2020 is supposed to have a total of 600 mixture between newer aircrafts and modernized aircrafts), and as 600 is impressive, it really isn't enough, especially the fact that a lot of MiG-29's were barely functional, as well as they have so many aircrafts in need of replacement and modernization, it really isn't funny.  Hell, India with its lower budget has quite a few Su-30MKI aircrafts and will have quite a few Rafale's as well later on.  $100B for airfroce alone is sufficient to replace many MANY aircrafts.  Maybe not 1000's but at least quite a few, especially if they go the route of Su-27SM3's.

    Downsizing the airforce is kinda dangerous and stupid, as the airforce is probably one of the most important aspects of the Russian military as a whole, as they deal with land, air and sea operations in protecting their own borders, and they are even more important now, since Russia's navy is being rebuilt entirely.

    I would say things are better than they were before, and I entirely agree with you on that.  But it needs to be better than that.  So I suppose the upgrading of the Su-24's and MiG-29SMT's, as well as MiG-31's are very much important to the integrity of the Russian federation.  But they will have to be able to deal with modern threats.

    Edit:

    I am seriously looking forward to MiG-35 and hopefully Russia gets enough of them in service, even if it is about 100 of them. Hopefully it will fund enough to Mikoyan so that they could look at possibly a newer airframe with more stealth features, to incorporate what they learned from MiG-35 into.
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    Post  GarryB on Sun Aug 18, 2013 12:16 pm

    I don't understand the bolded part. Drawing up design? What? They cannot or did not come up with an agreement to purchase the jets?
    They likely want to tinker with the design a bit more and have not got a fully finalised design yet.

    Pretty clear the treasury has been asking for delays in some spending to spread the cost and MiG has clearly stated they would like more time to get the MiG-35 design just right before they commit to serial production... sounds like it suits both sides so who are we to complain?

    I would say that a new single jet engined aircraft should have been made or designed.
    It would take a lot of stupidity for any Russian design bureau to design a single engine light fighter knowing that their primary customer has clearly stated they are not interested in single engined birds. The cost of such an expensive gamble could break the company.

    Think about it, Zhuk-A radar aircraft using RD-93 engines, onboard computer as well as OLS from Su-35 and some LO material technology from PAK FA program. Borrow already technologies existing, and push for its development. That could very well lower the price of the aircraft as well as be able to build them en mass for cheaper.
    Why use RD-93 engines? They are just RD-33s with the gearbox on the opposite side. The RD-333 Sea Wasp engine is rather more powerful (9tons thrust vs 8.3 tons thrust) and better newer technology.

    As a light 5th gen fighter single engines only make sense for VSTOL... without putting that lode stone around its neck having two engines means they can be separated and the gap between used for internal weapons bays...

    This is quite frankly a far better prognosis than several years ago.
    And rather better shape than most other airforces that still operate a large number of legacy fighters and bombers.

    USA alone is replacing over 2000 aircrafts with F-35's.
    Believe it when I see it.

    They also said it would be cheap...

    Downsizing the airforce is kinda dangerous and stupid, as the airforce is probably one of the most important aspects of the Russian military as a whole, as they deal with land, air and sea operations in protecting their own borders, and they are even more important now, since Russia's navy is being rebuilt entirely.
    Having thousands of planes makes little sense in this day and age. The new aircraft they are deploying are orders of magnitude more capable than the planes the Soviets had in service so there is no need to replace them one for one.

    New weapons will make new planes more effective but also the new VKO branch will be improved to the point where objects over Russian airspace or space will be spotted and aircraft directed to deal with the problem. Having thousands of aircraft to fight NATO is pointless and expensive... especially when the price of the new planes is rather more than the older simpler types too. The difference is that the new planes will be tied in to a fully digital network with force multipliers and support aircraft.

    But it needs to be better than that.
    Why?

    The threat now is greatly reduced and the solution no longer needs to be a long war and tea and biscuits on the English Channel by Tuesday... the solution is a tactical nuke up the wazoo and a threat of more to follow if you don't pull your head in.

    So I suppose the upgrading of the Su-24's and MiG-29SMT's, as well as MiG-31's are very much important to the integrity of the Russian federation. But they will have to be able to deal with modern threats.
    Upgrades greatly improve performance with greatly reduces short term costs. Older airframes need to be replaced sooner but they now have replacements ready for them so that is not really a concern either.

    SMT is an upgrade of older variants (9.12 and 9.13). It cannot be built from scratch and it wouldn't make any sense. Maybe the Fulcrum fleet is not as in bad condition as we think.
    They have plenty in storage AFAIK... a delay of 1-2 years would mean 24 or so aircraft not being built so 24 SMT upgrades shouldn't be that hard to organise...
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    Post  a89 on Sun Aug 18, 2013 12:21 pm

    They have plenty in storage AFAIK... a delay of 1-2 years would mean 24 or so aircraft not being built so 24 SMT upgrades shouldn't be that hard to organise...
    Not really, that stock in now exhausted. Aircraft have been sold to Malaysia, Bangladesh, Burma and Sudan.

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    Post  Firebird on Sun Aug 18, 2013 6:29 pm

    I've been trying to work out figures for RuAF inventory. I'm not sure how reliable the figures are.

    There's a number of issues. You don't want TOO MANY planes. And you don't want too little. One way causes economic disaster. Another causes foreign powers to be too much of a nuisance, even a threat.

    One aspect of restarting and bringing uptodate the RuAF, is that you can't just do small upgrades of old planes. There's a new Pak Fa, Pak Da, the Su-25 replacement, the Mig-31 replacement. And any modifications to the new Su-34 and 35. Add in the many decisions with the LMFS and the introduction of the Pak-fa, AND helicopters, it really is a "crossroads".. How quick will all this tech be ready for introduction. How will it all integrate? What will be the teething problems.

    America has lots of old F15 and 16s. Its F22 and F35 programmes havent been going ideally. Then there is the growing strength of China.

    I think Russia has to be pragmatic. ie not produce older planes for the sake of it. But not be short of numbers either. Clearl there needs to be a stopgap situation and a longer term, super hitec one. I think it will be 2025 or even 2030 before we really know how successful Russia's upgrades/ reforms have been.

    Its a similar situation with the Navy. We're seeing subs and smaller ships. But not yet the new destroyers, carriers, or the cruiser refits.

    On a separate point, I wonder how ideal the situation is for placing Russian planes in reserve. In the US you can put them out in a dry desert. Damp and cold aren't ideal. Does anyone know much about the "reserving" of Russian planes ie maintenance, climate control issues etc, when they are taken out of use for a significant time? There must be a vast number of planes that have seen very limited hours since the end of the USSR.


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    Post  sepheronx on Sun Aug 18, 2013 6:59 pm

    When I said single jet engine aircraft, I am talking for domestic use, not so much for foreign sales, but I can guarantee there would be countries interested in such jets to reduce costs. Even if F-35 project is not quite up to standards, they still have 63 or more of them already in service (still testing), then not to mention the 180 or so F-22's, on top of the hundreds of F-18's and F-15's, not to mention the massive amount of F-16s in service, which all pretty much either equal or outdo what Russia has in inventory.

    PAK FA, Su-35's and Su-34's are technically what Russia really needs, and really needs in numbers vs not. MiG-31's are also very much needed but will eventually have to be replaced as airframes life expectancy will not last forever, and so far, no real interceptor is in the plans. Cheaper strike aircrafts like MiG-35's would be really beneficial, or something that uses much to what MiG-35 has internally, and come up with a newer airframe with more powerful engines.
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    Post  Viktor on Mon Aug 19, 2013 2:54 am

    Few points I want to make:

    1. Russian Finance Ministry made an proposal to MOD to delay the purchase of MIG-35 and MOD accepted
    2. MIG-35 for Russian Army is worth 30 million $ per plane and cost of all 37 MIG-35 would be 1.24 billion $
    3. Because of small cost for Russian Army, MIG-35 could get export orders and improve its situation with more orders
    4. If the price of 30 million $ per plane is for Russian Army with perhaps 10% profit, selling MIG-35 for 60-70 million $ per plane would still make everyone want to buy some.

    I think Russian MOD should procede with the purchase.
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    Post  TR1 on Mon Aug 19, 2013 3:07 am

    The issue is apparently (aside from MOD not getting the money to buy the planes) is the MiG-35 still has lots of work and testing to be done on to be an actually working platform. By the time it is done (when they said they would postpone it to) around 2016 PAK-FA deliveries are to start (even if its not final model, it is far ahead of what MiG-35 offers) and the MOD will have plenty of other places to spend money (Irkut will deliver its 60 Su-30SMs by that point, and KNAAZ will be working on the second Su-35 batch, which IIRC has not been ordered yet and hence will need funds)..all of which will have a well-established production line and timetables.
    At that point I doubt any MiG order will be anything but social welfare. I think aligning MiG and Sokol along UAV production is a better idea in terms of long term return.

    Rumor mill is more Su-27SM3s are going to be ordered. This is curious, as I am not aware of that many leftover airframes from ex-Chinese contracts, implying these will be new built.
    I don't understand why they don't just tack on a bigger Su-35 order, but likely this has to do with production capability. The SM3s are welfare for KNAAZ probably, though why they need it with all their current orders I don't know.
    Will be a real waste of money if the rumored birds are not better equipped than the previous new SMs.
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    Post  Viktor on Mon Aug 19, 2013 3:48 am

    @TR1 do you know Su-30M2 deliveries per year?

    - Su-30M2 (4 signed at MAKS and 16 recently)
    - Su-27SM (12 signed at MAKS)

    How many upgraded Su-27SM (upgraded and newly build), Su-27SM2, Su-27SM3?
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    Post  TR1 on Mon Aug 19, 2013 4:15 am

    To date are 55 upgraded Su-27SM + 12 new build Su-27SM + 4 new build Su-30M2 + contract for 16 new build Su-30M2.
    SM2 was the proposed Su-35 lvl upgrade that was rejected IIRC.
    There should be 2 Su-30M2s delivered this year, and the rest by 2015.
    Not sure how many more new build Su-27SM3 will be ordered, but the number likely won't be too large.
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    Post  Sujoy on Mon Aug 19, 2013 11:49 am

    TR1 wrote:I don't understand why they don't just tack on a bigger Su-35 order, but likely this has to do with production capability
    Primarily because the optimum mix of SU 35 , SU 34 and SU 30SM has not been worked out yet .

    In 2011 Zelin had stated that by 2020 RuAF will field 124 SU 34 with the option of raising that number to 140 in another 5 years .

    However, in 2011 the number of SU 30 SM to be purchased was still an open question .

    The only reason that I think the RuAF went for the SU 30 SM is because they wanted an aircraft that is cheaper than the SU 35S and can therefore be inducted in large numbers . Otherwise it does NOT make sense for an Air Force that already has the SU 35S & SU 34 to go for the SU 30SM .

    The introduction of SU 30 SM into the mix actually throws the procurement calculation into a loop . If only SU 35S & SU 34 were part of the equation , working out an optimum mix of aircrafts would have been a lot easier.

    http://www.itar-tass.com/en/c467/845162.html

    The SU 34 can perform the same tasks as the SU 30 SM , but with almost double its range and about two and a half times its combat effectiveness. The SU 34 is designed as a bomber to deliver strikes to both ground and naval targets, as a fighter to gain air supremacy and as a reconnaissance aircraft. So though it is touted as a bomber , technically it can perform all the 3 roles .

    The SU 35S can also carry out these same functions but will primarily be used to gain air supremacy .

    Eventually , it depends on the strategy document for the next 10 - 15 years that the RuAF will come up with . Armies around the world decide upon strategy and tactics first and then decides what weapon system enables them to carry out such strategies/tactics. This gives manufacturers a road map , an overview .

    So until the RuAF spells out the zeroes regarding it's strategies in the near to medium term the suspended animation regarding the number of platforms ( SU 30SM , SU 34 , SU 35S) to be purchased will continue to reign supreme .


    Last edited by Sujoy on Mon Aug 19, 2013 2:13 pm; edited 1 time in total
    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB on Mon Aug 19, 2013 1:32 pm

    Will be a real waste of money if the rumored birds are not better equipped than the previous new SMs.
    Yes because if every new Russian plane is not a 5th + generation super stealth fighter with AESA radars poking out every orifice then Russia is DOOMED it is DOOMED hahahahaha...

    Or perhaps every Russian fighter does not need to be such, and for most roles 5th gen stealth fighters are dreadful wastes of money in terms of over kill.

    The Mig-35 will be an excellent aircraft when it is ready... sure it is a 4th gen fighter in a 5th gen part of the 21st C, but how many countries are actually making 5th gen fighters?

    Personally I think the Mig-35 will be a challenge to all other operational aircraft and superior to most.

    If the models are to be believed it will have 2 ton capacity on its inner two wing pylons meaning 2,000 litre fuel tanks can be carried on the inner pylons and 1,500kg guided bombs on the next pylon and a range of very sophisticated and capable new weapons can be carried on the other wing pylons too
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    Post  Firebird on Mon Aug 19, 2013 4:54 pm

    I read that the USAF reckons its min requirement is 2250 fighters and ground strike planes.
    It also reckons that  its total will fall below that due to i)ageing/ heavily used F15, 16 and 18 planes and ii)probs with the F35 and F22.

    Looking at the RuAF inventory of planes, I reckon that a couple of years ago there were *about* 1900 ih fighters, interceptors and ground strike planes.

    Bearing in mind Russia isn't obsessed with neo-Colonial power projection, that figure doesn't sound masssively different to the US.

    Obviously someone would need to audit the whole thing. How many reserve planes are actually airworthy, what are the actual requirements etc etc.
    But 1900 (isH) vs 2200 isn't THAT bad, atleast US v Russia.

    There are ofcourse other issues - the size of NATO, the US Navy, America's mass of global bases etc.
    The fact Russia doesn't have masses of global allies.

    But if things are done right - Su35 and 35 and Mig 35 with modernized legacy planes, THEN the nextgen planes, things will look pretty ok.

    The one where there IS a big difference is navy, number of overseas bases and allies.

    I think the big question for Russia is, what should its internation doctrine be? Thats when you can say exactly how many planes should be in service.
    medo
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    Post  medo on Mon Aug 19, 2013 4:57 pm

    Up to now, 90 Su-30SM are ordered and I'm sure there will be more and I'm sure they will order more Su-35 too.
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    Post  sepheronx on Mon Aug 19, 2013 5:35 pm

    Well if parts are quite common between them (which isn't the case), then having a mixture of Su-30SM and Su-35S would not be bad. But face it, in the future and in closer to now, US will have a much more superior airforce in the sense of F-35's, and even if the Su-35 is a great aircraft because of its long detection range, the fact that it isn't an LO airframe, will obviously make it be detected sooner than the Su-35, simple as that. If lets say they are able to put the technologies of Su-35 and MiG-35 into a new LO airframe, then Russia could have themselves quite the aircraft. Hybrid radar, AESA radar PESA radar, whatever. If lets say they created a LO aircraft but instead of using AESA, they use a Zhuk-M variant or Irbis-E, if given proper EW/ECM/ECCM pods and as well, LPI mode on the radar; all shoved into a lo airframe, they could probably have themselves a very good 4+++ or early 5th gen aircraft, better than they have now. Stealth is very important these days, especially with introduction of newer air defense systems and airborn radar.

    Biggest issue that India faces is maintenance costs for their aircrafts, so many different aircrafts, so many different spare parts. With having an airframe that shares commonality in parts or just using 1 airframe for various rolls, will reduce costs of maintenance greatly, and thus Russia, or any other country, could increase the number of aircrafts in service, as it would be cheaper overall (even with high costs these days on aircrafts).

    Like has been mentioned before, either on here or MP.net, Mikoyan should probably stick to working on UAV's as the return may be better. Or at least come up with a new airframe.
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    Post  medo on Mon Aug 19, 2013 5:57 pm

    And what superiority LO give to F-35? It will first launch missiles on Su-35, which MAWS sensors will detect and will be jammed or outmaneuvered and than follow dogfight. What chances have F-35 against Su-35 in dogfight? F-35 will also need to turn on its radar to see Su-35, so Su-35 RWR will locate F-35 on quite a distance.

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