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    State Armaments Program 2011-2020

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    Austin
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    Re: State Armaments Program 2011-2020

    Post  Austin on Wed Jun 01, 2011 6:54 am

    The BUK versus Vitaz debate is interesting.

    As a disclaimer let me say we know nothing about Vityaz except for opensource info , its still a classified system and under trials , but from opensource info Vityaz may have 9M96 and 9m96E missile with 40 and 120 km range plus a new AESA radar besided some short range missile. The pictures reveled that its based on a single truck no tracked vechical so far.

    BUK-2ME is a cheap mass produce sam and it has been in production for 2 decades in various mark so its a very proven system with long production line making it cheaper to produce and deploy with tactics developed , it has LLTV and autotracker plus it has secondary ground strike capability presumably against know radio contrast targets and even tactical ABM capability.

    If you read the recent news on NATO cruise missile by 2020 then they really need BUKM2E and BUK-M3 is big numbers on tracked vehical

    http://en.rian.ru/russia/20110528/164287627.html


    I would say Vityaz due to its ARH and AESA and many new systems will be expensive and considering it is yet to be inducted in service it remains a yet to be proven system and many variants still need to be deployed.

    I would say the BUK-M2ME and BUK-M3 would stay and remain effective till 2025 and beyond and its a very capable system against any known cruise and aircraft threats.

    GarryB
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    SAP 2011-2020

    Post  GarryB on Wed Jun 01, 2011 8:09 am

    I agree that a lot of time and effort and money has been invested in the BUK system, and it does what it is supposed to.

    Problem is that because most vehicles have their own radar a battery is very expensive compared to the Kub system it replaces.

    There are clear and sensible reasons for this, but it doesn't change the facts that it has not been a huge export success largely because of its cost.

    A vertical launch setup for the Vityaz system with the much smaller missiles offers the potential of rather more ready to launch missiles... which is an important factor when the threat is a mass wave attack, and the individual cost of the missiles can be reduced by mass production.

    The latest naval version of BUK is still quite large but offers vertical launch, but the size of the missile makes a land based vertical launch arrangement impractical on a vehicle of practical size.

    I suspect the models shown so far of the Vityaz system based on trucks is the cheap "trailer" version and that a similar option of wheeled and tracked models will likely result eventually.

    Similar arrangements will likely be adopted for the Pantsir-S1 system too. (ie wheeled and tracked models to replace older models).

    The best way to reduce the cost of a missile with ARH and an AESA radar is mass production. Make 10 radars with elements costing $100 each and they are expensive, but set up production facilities and standardise the radar elements so they are the same in land, air and naval radars and produce 100,000 elements a day and all of a sudden the elements are $1 each or less. Periodically... every 6 months or so a new material or design will make them smaller and cheaper or easier to make etc and they can be put into production and upgrade all the existing models when needed.

    The best way to defeat a wave attack of cruise missiles is with ARH missiles, and with vertical launch systems with missiles preloaded into pallets like the TOR system reloading such a system will be faster than with BUK and with more ready to fire missiles too.

    I think it is pretty much a case of upgrade the Buks but eventually when the Vityaz is ready it will be like the T-90AM and Armata, or BTR-82 and Boomerang... and indeed the Su-35 and Pak FA. In each case once the latter is ready the other can be released for export or gifted to allies that might find it useful as it is replaced in Russian service.

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    Re: State Armaments Program 2011-2020

    Post  Austin on Sat Oct 01, 2011 1:53 pm

    Russian defense industry is developing new-generation equipment - Defense
    http://ria.ru/defense_safety/20111001/447074263.html

    MOSCOW, October 1 - RIA Novosti. Enterprises of the Russian military-industrial complex began to develop the three families of combat and support vehicles for the Army on the basis of heavy, medium and light unified platforms (tanks, APCs and armored cars), told reporters on Saturday, the Day of the Army, a spokesman for the Press Service and Information Russian Ministry of Defense Lt. Col. Sergei Vlasov.

    Day of the Land Forces says Russia on October 1st Presidential Decree "On establishment of professional holidays and memorable days in the Armed Forces of the Russian Federation" dated May 31, 2006.

    "For the Army initiated the development of a new family of platforms such as light -" Typhoon ", medium -" Boomerang "and" Kurganets-25 ", and heavy -" Armata "," Vlasov said.

    He added that the full technical re-equipment of the Army plans to carry out in two stages.

    According to Defense Ministry spokesman, on the first phase, from 2011 to 2015, major efforts will be focused on the purchase of modern weapons and military equipment for missile and artillery units, subunits, intelligence, electronic warfare and communications, and automated control systems for tactical level. In the second phase, from 2016 to 2020, is scheduled to begin a complete equipment and units with new modern weapons and military equipment on the base of unified platforms.

    Speaking about preliminary results of the current academic year, Vlasov said that the Army in 2011, conducted more than 7500 firings offices, 2.6 thousand firings platoons, about 250 zug tactical exercises and over 80 battalion-level tactical training.

    Land forces are the main type of the Armed Forces, they consist of a mobile and compact permanently combat-ready, capable of immediately begin the mission.

    As part of the Army - motorized rifle, tank, artillery and rocket forces, air defense forces, special forces: intelligence, communications, electronic warfare, engineering, logistics, as well as radiation, chemical and biological protection.

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    SAP program 2011-2020

    Post  Austin on Sat Oct 01, 2011 6:34 pm

    Interview with Chief of Land Forces, Colonel-General Alexander Postnikov.
    http://gurkhan.blogspot.com/2011/09/blog-post_9146.html

    Interview with Chief of Land Forces, Colonel-General Alexander Postnikov.
    Alexander Tikhonov, "Red Star".

    Tomorrow, on October 1, in the Russian Armed Forces will celebrate their professional holiday - Day of the Army. This is a special date in a series of professional holidays in our army, because at the present time are the main ground forces of the Armed Forces.

    As part of the formation of the modern image of the Armed Forces of the Army began a compact, mobile, predominantly composed of military units of permanent readiness, able to immediately begin the mission. And the deployment of these compounds corresponds to the existing threats and allow for any strategic direction to create groups of troops (forces) to repel the aggression of the enemy as soon as possible. In this regard, at present the main efforts of the High Command are aimed at improving the Army as of the Armed Forces, has high capacity to conduct active operations at any variant of wars and armed conflicts. The fact that been done in the course of these efforts and what is planned for the near future, on the eve of the professional holiday of the "Red Star" said Chief of Land Forces, Colonel-General Alexander Postnikov.

    - What are the tasks defined by the Military Doctrine of the Russian Federation on peace and war, are expected to be decided only by associations, formations and units of ground forces or with their direct participation?

    - Army has always played an important and often decisive role in ensuring the military security of the state and defending our national interests. Under present conditions, their role and importance in our view, not decreased. After all, military units the Army has been and remains the only means of containing and controlling territory.

    Only the presence of the Army in the Russian Armed Forces can provide a reliable defense of the Russian Federation with regard to the size and extent of its land borders, is over 22 thousand kilometers, and the particular political and geographical position.

    In connection with this association, connection, and in general for Army assigned a number of important tasks, including participation in strategic deterrence and prevention of military conflicts. Priorities - part in repelling aggression against the Russian Federation and its allies, defeating the troops (forces) of the aggressor, forcing him to cease hostilities on terms that meet the interests of Russia and its allies. You can use ground forces in peacekeeping operations (restoration) of international peace and security. To deal with them in their composition are Army mechanized infantry, tank troops, missile troops and artillery, air defense forces, as well as special forces: intelligence, communications, electronic warfare, engineering, NBC protection and logistical support.

    Of course, we are well aware that to ensure the military security of Russia can only work together, well-coordinated efforts of all kinds, arms of the Armed Forces and military units of other ministries and agencies aimed at implementing a significant number of interrelated and complex tasks. But this land forces, while maintaining its dominant position in the groups created for action at the regional (local) wars and armed conflicts continue to play an important role in the neutralization of contemporary security threats and challenges, including the effects of terrorism, being ready for any scenario complications of the military-political situation to ensure the military security of Russia.

    - How, in light of the reform of the Armed Forces and the creation of joint strategic command to change the functions of the High Command of the Land Forces?

    - It should be noted that earlier attempts at reform undertaken by the Army compounds in the main is to reduce the quantitative parameters without any fundamental changes in their organizational structure, management systems, improve and provide modern weapons and military equipment.

    In order to improve the structure of the armed forces, reducing layers of management and avoidance of duplication of various structures in 2010 was reorganized government and set up four military districts (Western, Southern, Central and Eastern), having in its composition between species groups of troops (forces) .

    At the Command of the Army today charged with the task of building the Army and the improvement of their structure and organization of combat training, training junior specialists, planning, peacekeeping and disaster relief, development of tactical and technical requirements for armaments, military and special equipment for the Army.

    - What special attention was paid to the preparation of the Army in 2011?

    - The most significant event of the preparation of the Land Forces was held in September, the strategic doctrine "Center-2011 ', who were involved in more than 20 military units and formations. In practical actions that took place at six test sites, from the Army and units involved from the Central Military District.

    The exercise, in addition to working out issues of interaction of heterogeneous and cross-species groupings and test the ability of commanders and staffs at all levels to manage, study and evaluate the possibilities and units of constant readiness to perform its tasks as intended by newly developed military documents.

    As shown by action of troops on the firing ranges, training soldiers and officers in comparison with strategic exercises "Vostok-2010", "Kavkaz-2009" and "West 2009" has grown, especially in practical terms. Controls, connections, and the Army units operating in a whole effectively coped with the tasks. Significantly increased their cohesiveness and willingness to operate successfully in the modern combined arms battle. The personnel of demonstrated good proficiency, and most importantly - the desire to perform tasks.

    During the 2011 academic year administration, the compound (military units) and units of ground forces also participated in joint military exercises with the armies of foreign countries, the main ones were the co-operative teaching of the armed forces of the Russian Federation and the Republic of Belarus "Union Shield - 2011" Mongolian-Russian joint exercise "Selenga-2011."

    Analysis of the results of 2011 school year shows a tendency of increasing the intensity and quality of combat training over the previous year. Total the Army has conducted more than 7,500 firings offices, more than 2,600 firings platoons, about 250 zug tactical exercises, over 80 battalion-level tactical training. During the gathering with the leadership of the Army was held ostentatious brigade combat exercise with live firing. In addition, it took more than 270 sborovyh events with the officers. It should be noted that in most performed charges involved the faculty of military schools, which allowed use of the rich academic experience.

    - What is being done in the Army in the process of modernizing and upgrading weapons and military equipment?

    - To improve performance during the overhaul of being upgraded, which is based in the installation of new weapon systems with a thermal imager, modern radio equipment and internal communications and switching controls. Implementing this approach will allow for 10 years to support the combined arms combat readiness units to equip the Army with new modern types of military vehicles.

    In the transition to the new Army combat strength of heavy, medium and light brigades of the Army High Command in conjunction with industry to develop and start the creation of three families of combat and support vehicles for the Army on the basis of heavy, medium and light unified platforms.

    Work continues on a new automated control system for tactical-level "Constellation-M2", which will provide a full function control, intelligence, communications, electronic warfare, navigation, and identification. And with the maximum efficiency will manage the tactical troop formations. Provided for building communications systems with a range of stations DTSV processing technology Wi-Fi and creating a nodal architecture communications system. The cycle of direct control in the brigade will be reduced by 1.6 times compared with the existing organization of government.

    For the army air defense systems are developed and aerial reconnaissance from unmanned aerial vehicles (UAVs) equipped with electro-optical and radar facilities. The development of ACS army air defense operational level, the establishment of radar duty and military regimes, common to SAM (SAM) and radar units.

    Also, the incorporation of NBC reconnaissance on a single methodological, technical and organizational framework through the development of an automated system to identify and assess the extent and effects of weapons of mass destruction, radiation and hazardous chemical accidents, as well as automated radiation control system.

    In the area of ​​exploration and development occurs and the creation of unified multi-purpose and multi-channel automated and unmanned combat high-precision systems that provide real-time reconnaissance, identification and defeat enemy targets. In particular, the complex is being developed with aerial reconnaissance drones, equipped with opto-electronic and radar facilities. Also being developed zvukoteploseysmicheskie and radio complexes intelligence.

    In the area of ​​non-conventional weapons should mention the development of fundamentally new systems and models of weapons and military equipment on the basis of technical solutions using new physical principles, advanced robotic systems of weapons and military equipment. In particular, in the interests of the Army is the creation of designs (sets) non-lethal weapons destruction to participate in peacekeeping operations and operations in urban and densely populated areas.

    - Battle Ground Forces capabilities are directly dependent on their equipment with new, modern weapons and military equipment. How active are their development, when the connection and receive part of a new technique?

    - Capacity-building of military formations and units at the expense of equipping them with modern weapons and military equipment is a priority construction and development of the Army. Until 2020, according to the state armaments program for 2011-2020 the share of modern weapons will be at least 70 percent. Its implementation will create a system of arms-to-date.

    At the same time upgrading the Army plans to carry out in two stages. In the first (2011-2015) the main focus will be on procurement of modern arms and military equipment designs, especially for rocket and artillery units, intelligence units, electronic warfare and communications, and automated control systems for tactical level. At the same time continue to develop a new family of platforms such as light ("Typhoon"), medium ("Boomerang" and "Kurganets-25") and heavy ("Armata").

    In the second phase (2016-2020 years) is scheduled to begin a complete equipment and units with new modern types of weapons and military equipment on the base of unified platforms.

    - And what about Kalashnikov?

    - From Kalashnikov armed forces do not give up. It's small arms is on the Army and Navy.

    However, existing stocks of AK-74 is much greater than our needs. In the next 10 years will be provided by ground forces with new AK-74, which now lie at the army warehouses. Therefore, an additional purchase for the Armed Forces of the small arms is not necessary.

    At the same time, today the Ministry of Defence has formulated new demands on the technical characteristics of samples of small arms, the Army needed at present. Briefly they can be described as follows: must be significantly improved accuracy, sighting range, ergonomics machine, but it retained its reliability as a Kalashnikov rifle.

    I know that today at the "Izhmash", and not only on him, already being developed completely new modern machine for the army. We are closely monitoring these developments and actively cooperating with enterprises.

    I am sure that Russian gunsmiths who have experience of creating unique designs in small arms, worth cope with this task. The Armed Forces will get a weapon that will continue the best traditions of brand "Kalashnikov" and while nothing will give the latest foreign models.

    - Please tell us about Social Security of Military Land Forces and their families. How many homeless officers, when they will be provided with accommodation?

    - Currently under construction about a thousand houses in 39 regions of Russia. Until the end of the year should be put into operation six districts with all necessary infrastructure. More than 20 thousand apartments in a hundred new homes will be new residents in the suburbs, St. Petersburg, Stavropol and Krasnodar territories and the Maritime region.

    The waiting list for housing space has decreased by almost half. Keeping the momentum building, completely secure permanent housing standing on the stage of war planned before the end of 2012.

    It is also important that the acquisition of permanent housing is not necessarily connected with the place of service waiting list. If the soldier who serves, for example, in Khabarovsk, chose the place of residence outside Moscow and Krasnodar, he should make an appropriate statement in the service, which deals with housing register.

    - What do you wish to subordinate the eve of the professional holiday - Day of the Army?

    - I want to sincerely thank all the staff and veterans of the Army for the contribution they make to the common cause of ensuring the military security of Russia and warmly congratulate them for this memorable date, and wish you health, happiness and continued success in service and work for the benefit of our Fatherland

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    Re: State Armaments Program 2011-2020

    Post  Austin on Tue Jan 17, 2012 2:53 pm

    Russia is spinning the wheel of its RUR 20 trillion armament program

    During the year 2012 Russia is to fine tune its new system of state defence procurement. Without that work it would be difficult to fulfil the state program worth RUR 20 trillion. The hopes are based on the introduction of long term contracts as well as consensus based pricing system. All disputes between the industry and the military will be resolved by a special military-industrial committee chaired by the new deputy prime minister Dmitry Rogozin. Until recently he served as Russia's representative in the NATO.

    The program has never been published in full, but the leadership of the Ministry of Defense and representatives of the military-industrial complex have anounced a few figures. For example, the Ministry of Defense is planning to acquire a minimum of 600 new military aircarft, 1200 helicopters, over 50 battle ships of main classes, 8 strategic nuclear-powered missle carriers, 10 multi-purpose nucrear submarines, 1500 tanks, 56 divisions of S-400 anti-aircraft systems, 10 divisions of the new surface-to-airmissile systems S-500 and some others. Besides the acquisitions of new weapons the program includes a wide range of upgrade programs for several types of weapons and technical means. That includes hundreds of aircarft and helicopters, thousand units of armored vehicles, majority of the naval ships and submarines. The fulfillment of these ambitious plans largely depends on how well the military and the industry can work together.

    The situation that by the end of 2011 took shape with the state defense procurement in Russia could only be qualified as a deadlock. The Ministry of Defense sought to buy new military equipment of adequate quality at minimal price while the producers wanted to not only cover their production costs, but also get financing for “future development”, “modernization” and also for “just in case”. The resulting disputes and scandals between them often times had to be resolved by the country’s top leadership.

    Both President Dmitry Medvedev and prime minister Vladimir Putin both said it would be unacceptable to break the deadlines on the state defence procurement contracts. Both leaders personally supervised the negotiations on the most significant contracts – with the United Shipbuilding Corporation (USC), United Aircraftbuilding Corporation (UAC) as well as the Moscow Institute of Thermal Technology (MITT).

    The issues of the financing of the defence procurement orders caused serious debates inside the Government itself. In particular, many experts believe that Finance Minister's disagreement with such increase in military spending was one of the key reasons of Alexey Kudrin's resignation last year.

    Neither the Ministry of Defence, nor the industry or politicians seek to relive the experience of 2011. Everybody agrees that the problem needs to be solved, otherwise the RUR 20-trillion State Armaments Program (SAP) would be under threat. According to the 10-year SAP Russian Armed Forces are to radically upgrade their arsenal of military equipment – by 70% on average, including complete upgrade of some equipment. In particular, Strategic Rocket Forces are to get a 100% equipment upgrade.

    According to the deputy director of the Center of Analysis of Strategies and Technologies Constantine Makienko: «In 2012 it is planned to streamline the procurement process of the Ministry of Defence itself. It now consists of three stages: the department of pricing, the legal department and main commands of various services of the Armed Forces. Besides that within the new system of price setting it is planned to fine-tune the relationship between the defence industry and the Ministry of Defence. Nobody will be forced to work harder, which will take its toll, while there are still no efficient methods of price setting worked out”, says Makienko.

    However, the defence industry enterprises have had no choice but to constantly raise prices faster than the inflation rate warrants. Lack of funds for plant upgrade, problems with suppliers and small production runs – these are all the factors that don’t contribute to price decrease.

    There are several ways to give more room for maneuver to the managers of defence enterprises. First of all it is the reorganization of the industry management system, which has been underway for several years via holding formation process. Secondly, the planning horizon can be extended via introduction of long-term contracts (launched wide scale last year). And thirdly, improved access to financing via increased acceess to the State Defence Orders as well as other sources of financing. Such sources of financing are funds allocated within the targeted federal program for the upgrade of the defence industry complex enterprises, as well as loans issued by banks against state guarantees. All these measures are to help the enterprises to move away from the “present day” mentality – unlike the birds in the Bible, modern industrial enterprises need to see their perspective not just for years to come, but for decades ahead.

    «There will be no such acute crisis as in 2011», believes Constantine Makienko. «However, a number of problems are too deeply rooted to be resolved easily. If we talk about the real problems, the situation with the military transport aviation can be characterized as very acute if not critical, where the delays in completion of the majority of projects have grown out of proportion. At the same time there are areas where the development is quite successful. Specifically, it concerns the supply of helicopters – the «Helicopters of Russia» group have managed to launch production of high volume series, have built partnerships with suppliers, largely upgraded their production facilities, and thus are producing with competitive equipment. That also includes battle aircraft of the Sukhoi Construction Bureau – their production rates are increasing, and even if they do fall behind, it won’t be critical”, thinks Constantine Makienko.

    The key issue of 2012 will be the role of the Military-industrial Committee formed by the Russian Government. With its new leader – deputy prime-minister Dmitry Rogozin and with the mission to “actively participate” in the resolution of conflicts and the building of cooperation between the military and the industry, the Committee is to become that very entity where consensus decisions acceptable to both the military and the industry will be made. “Acting by force doesn’t work any more” – this rule is valid for both sides. As Russian experience shows, disproportional influence of the military or the industry lobby does not lead to any positive results. Time will show whether this upgraded Committee can help balance the influences and interests.

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    Re: State Armaments Program 2011-2020

    Post  GarryB on Wed Jan 18, 2012 4:44 am

    Russia is spinning the wheel of its RUR 20 trillion armament program

    What a strange title?

    Very ambiguous.

    A spinning wheel can mean several things... spinning wheels are often used in games of chance and represent gambling.

    A spinning tire on a vehicle can mean forward progress, but if it is just spinning and not moving the vehicle forward it means the vehicle has lost traction and is stuck, whether it is no longer on suitable ground (ie deep mud or deep snow) or it has left the road/track and is in water and is drowning.

    I wonder which meaning the writer meant...

    It certainly seems to me that the military are now realising that the military industrial complex has to be fed too, and that getting new high tech stuff at the old low prices is not going to happen.

    Regarding the figures it is interesting they mention 1,500 tanks to be produced, this has to be new tanks in addition to upgraded older models.

    I would suspect that they will want to make as many of those 1,500 new tanks Armata tanks as they can, but I think it will be a while before they can afford an all Armata fleet, so T-90, T-80, and upgraded T-72s will be the core of their armour forces for likely the next decade, with perhaps numbers of Aramata slowly replacing the older tank models over time.

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    Re: State Armaments Program 2011-2020

    Post  Austin on Wed Jan 18, 2012 7:03 pm

    I think the 1500 Tanks by 2020 includes Armata , Boomerang and Kur-25 plus a new BMD-4 type platform.

    Armata will go into production by 2016 dont think they will get 1500 armata in 4 years

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    Re: State Armaments Program 2011-2020

    Post  TR1 on Wed Jan 18, 2012 8:33 pm

    Just finished BMD-4M development, and already taking about a new platform. Ugh!
    VDV is critical as a response force, and they need vehicles now. 200 BMD-4Ms would increase their viability massively.

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    Re: State Armaments Program 2011-2020

    Post  GarryB on Thu Jan 19, 2012 12:11 am

    200 BMD-4Ms would increase their viability massively.

    100 An-70s for the VDV would make even more of a difference to their mobility and readiness. At the moment they have to ask for Il-76s from the DA.

    I think the 1500 Tanks by 2020 includes Armata , Boomerang and Kur-25 plus a new BMD-4 type platform.

    Armata will go into production by 2016 dont think they will get 1500 armata in 4 years

    but the problem there is that with an Armata motor rifle heavy Brigade all the vehicles will need an Armata chassis... so all the tanks in the tank battalion will be Armatas (41), but all the APCs and IFVs in the 3 motor rifle battalions will all be Armata chassis too. All the artillery (tube and rocket) will be on Armata chassis... every vehicle in that brigade needs Armata level protection, which means an Armata vehicle chassis base.

    In a medium brigade it is the same... depending on mobility requirements they will be Boomerang and Kur-25 base vehicles, but being lighter than tanks they will be cheaper and quicker to produce... but they are heavier at 25 tons and likely more expensive than current BTRs/BMPs respectively.

    In the light brigades the Typhoons will likely be 4 and 6 wheeled vehicles that are relatively light and straight forward to mass produce so they will likely be ready first.

    We really can't be sure if the BMD-4M will see service, the navy has already decided on a dedicated navy vehicle based on the Kur-25 but with fixed propellers and likely a few other modifications to make it suitable to use in open water.

    I have read an article that the Navy has rejected new air cushioned vehicle production (ie Zubr) and is looking at the high speed boats used in the Mistral instead to deliver armour. The plan is for the Mistral to remain well offshore and for the armour and men and equipment to be delivered by other less vulnerable craft.

    If they can make 1,600 Armata tanks between 2015 and 2020 that should mean that by 2020 they will most likely have an armoured force of 1,600 Armata, 800 or so T-90s, perhaps 1,400 T-80s, and the remaining 3,200 or so late model upgraded T-72s.

    Depending on the cost of Armatas it might actually prove cost effective to produce T-90s and eventually have a fleet of about 6,000 with perhaps 3,000 Armata and 3,000 T-90AM. Once they are down to two tank types they can gradually increase Armata numbers till it is an all Armata force by 2030 perhaps.

    The "tank" vehicle in the medium and light brigades are basically mobile direct fire guns and would be better described as light tanks rather than MBTs.

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    Re: State Armaments Program 2011-2020

    Post  TR1 on Thu Jan 19, 2012 1:35 am

    I think we will see 200 BMD-4Ms in the VDV before we see 100 An-70s in the whole Russian MOD Wink .

    Regarding Armata, if there are 500 of them by 2020 I will be a happy panda. But that is optimistic I think.

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    Re: State Armaments Program 2011-2020

    Post  GarryB on Thu Jan 19, 2012 5:04 am

    I think we will see 200 BMD-4Ms in the VDV before we see 100 An-70s in the whole Russian MOD.

    Sadly that is true... though the VDV needs their own airlift capability more than they need new vehicles, though the goal should be both.

    Its own strategic airlift air force, and I think a VDV helicopter force would be useful too with their own transport and gunship helos.

    Regarding Armata, if there are 500 of them by 2020 I will be a happy panda. But that is optimistic I think.

    The thing that people forget is that Armata is a heavy tank chassis family, not just a tank, so making 410 Armatas doesn't mean 10 tank battalions, because in a motor rifle brigade there would be one tank battalion and three BMP/BTR battalions, and of course in a heavy brigade those BTRs and BMPs are all Armatas too. Three IFV battalions means 9 armata IFV companies of 10 vehicles each, so 41 Armata tanks, and 93 Armata IFVs, plus the gun and missile and missile only air defence vehicles will also be armata based vehicles. The 152mm artillery and the Tonado-G rocket artillery should in theory be Armata based as well, so you are talking about 200 plus vehicles per Brigade if you include all the support vehicles and recon vehicles, command vehicles, medical vehicles, engineer vehicles, etc etc.

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    Re: State Armaments Program 2011-2020

    Post  Austin on Thu Jan 19, 2012 5:15 am

    Here is the news on new Air Borne Combat Vehical being under development for VDV , expected entry to service date is 2016

    http://vpk.name/news/63418_vyishe_zhivuchest_lichnogo_sostava.html

    It seems the MOD rejected the BMD-4 purchase and purchase of BMD-4M remains unknown

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    Re: State Armaments Program 2011-2020

    Post  GarryB on Thu Jan 19, 2012 5:37 am

    Looks to be similar to the T-90S and BMP-3, where the military said it would buy no more of either and made fairly specific criticisms of them.
    The result was the T-90AM and BMP-3M respectively.

    The problem and question is... do they decide to spend money on the upgraded types now or do they put the purchase off for 3-5 years and spend it on the new vehicles.

    The thing is that for the VDV the medium Brigade vehicles will likely be a bit too heavy as both the wheeled Boomerang and the tracked Kurganets-25 weigh 25 tons... if they could air drop vehicles that heavy then instead of BMD-4s they could be using BMP-3s and have some commonality with the Army.

    Note the BMD-3 is about 13 tons, but the Sprut light tank is air droppable and is 18 tons.

    I rather suspect therefore that the new vehicles for the VDV might be based on the Typhoon from the light brigades.

    The medium Boomerang and Kurganets-25 are fully amphibious and the naval infantry are getting custom designed amphibious models of the tracked Kurganets-25, so it would make sense for there to be a modified and optimised VDV version of either Typhoon or something between the Typhoon and Boomerang/kurganets-25.

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    Re: State Armaments Program 2011-2020

    Post  TR1 on Thu Jan 19, 2012 7:44 am

    Tank wise and even BMP wise new platforms is a good idea, but BMD wise I think this is an expensive mistake. It is a specialized vehicle, there won't be thousands of them ever made. I don't see what a new design will improve on, the uparmored BMD-4M showed at Tagil this year looks perfect for the VDV. Protection looks decent for vehicle of its specialized nature, fighting compartment is excellent, sensors suit extensive. VDV badly needs new vehicles, right now.
    Same with Sprut, so many years in design, and barely any bought. Way better platform than that stupid 105mm Stryker in my oppinion. Upsetting all in all.

    Unless of course they are going wheeled like Garry suggests. That in itself is a radical change, and I suspect many in the VDV would not be happy with it.

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    Re: State Armaments Program 2011-2020

    Post  Austin on Thu Jan 19, 2012 10:05 am

    Reading most about Armata , Boomerang and other new platforms i believe the procurement they are planning to do this decade is something that would last for next two after 2020.

    The new platform being built are not only technically better and based on previous cancelled project but are also logistically common and modular in design.

    The current Tanks and BMP or BMD are just incremental upgrade from say 30-40 years old design and it cant be stretched or made to be effective for threats in next 30 years or excel it.

    The new system i fell is to break those 40 years umbilical cord and venture in new terriotary that will last 30 - 40 years

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    Re: State Armaments Program 2011-2020

    Post  GarryB on Thu Jan 19, 2012 12:12 pm

    The new system i fell is to break those 40 years umbilical cord and venture in new terriotary that will last 30 - 40 years

    Yes.

    A from scratch upgrade using all the new ideas and new technologies as well as extensive combat experience to better protect and mobilise Russian troops.

    What is the point of putting all the armour in the world on a tank when a tank operates with a dozen other vehicles that can be taken out to leave the tanks vulnerable. There is a reason tanks operate with IFVs, so there is a reason to protect IFVs like tanks.

    Basing entire brigades on the same vehicle makes the logistics tail more efficient, while giving all units the same level of protection and mobility.

    It will cost more in Heavy brigades, but will also make light and medium brigades cheaper as they wont have MBTs, they will have their own family vehicles.

    The west has toyed with vehicle families but has never implimented the idea.

    The current Tanks and BMP or BMD are just incremental upgrade from say 30-40 years old design and it cant be stretched or made to be effective for threats in next 30 years or excel it.

    Indeed, the MBT, BMP, BTR, BMD have not been replaced as concepts... there will be MBT or gun platform vehicles in each brigade type and in a different army an Armata MBT would just be a MBT, it is just that there will be different versions of the Armata with the same engine and armour but different weapons and different electronic and control suites.

    The MBT electronic suite in the Armata will be the same electronic suite as used in the Typhoon MBT, or likely direct fire support gun platform... the difference is that intially the Armata MBT will have a 125mm gun and later might get a 152mm gun, while the Typhoon MBT might have a 45mm or 57mm high velocity gun, but it will likely have the same electronics and sights as the Armata MBT. The Boomerang wheeled gun platform might have a 57mm or 45mm gun while the Kurganets-25 might have a 125mm gun like the Sprut, or they both might have 125mm guns... the Sprut is 18 tons and the Boomerang and Kurganets-25 are both 25 ton amphibians.

    Tank wise and even BMP wise new platforms is a good idea, but BMD wise I think this is an expensive mistake. It is a specialized vehicle, there won't be thousands of them ever made. I don't see what a new design will improve on, the uparmored BMD-4M showed at Tagil this year looks perfect for the VDV. Protection looks decent for vehicle of its specialized nature, fighting compartment is excellent, sensors suit extensive. VDV badly needs new vehicles, right now.

    The VDV has always had the prestige and political power to get specialised equipment, and indeed the Soviet Military has a history of specialist equipment rather than standardisation.

    I rather suspect they will want a variant of an existing type rather than a brand new vehicle for the VDV... very similar to the adapted Kurganets-25 for the naval infantry. No doubt the Kurganets-25 will have good armour and its amphibious ability will be based around crossing lakes and rivers rather than hitting real beaches or travelling long distances in rough water.
    This means that the naval infantry will need serious modifications to the Kurganets-25 to adapt it to suit their needs, but fundamentally they will be related vehicles with similar systems and roles. The Kurganets-25 for the navy will be a family of vehicles too.

    I think the VDV will go the same course and will either pick the Typhoon or perhaps Boomerang with extra armour or less armour to suit their needs for air dropping the vehicles. In many ways the BMD was just a very light BMP with similar to contemporary BMP armament. I think the new vehicles for the VDV will continue that, but now they have a choice between wheeled and tracked and also for much lighter vehicles in the Typhoon class, which might be possible to be heli dropped for some missions.

    I don't know the current status of the VDV but there is nothing wrong with introducing the BMD-4M now as it is a good vehicle... they have said they will not buy the BMD-4, which means they would consider buying BMD-4M or they haven't decided yet.

    The state of Russian transport capacity is probably a more urgent concern, but as shown during 888 they were able to cooperate with the navy without much warning and they performed very professionally.

    They have since increased their exercises with naval forces including anti piracy stuff, so this is all good.

    Same with Sprut, so many years in design, and barely any bought. Way better platform than that stupid 105mm Stryker in my oppinion. Upsetting all in all.

    I think Sprut would be an ideal platform for light units in place of towed anti tank guns to just give them mobility... the problem of course is that they are not based on one of the new families of vehicles so they will be a short term measure.

    I think the Sprut has an excellent future, but instead of being mounted on a BMD-3 chassis that fitting it to a Kurganets-25 or Typhoon or even a Boomerang chassis, plus also a modified naval infantry kurganets-25 chassis and whatever the VDV wants... the point is standardisation within the unit to aide the logistics and support.

    It doesn't matter if Russian Naval Infantry Kurganets-25 vehicles are not totally the same as the Army Kurganets-25 in terms of components... the max unification is good for procurement and development but operationally the navy will have different requirements that need to be met.

    If they are only good for rivers and lakes then in the open sea they will be useless, but basing them on the army system saves time and money and increases commonality and standardisation.

    The Russian military is achieving what NATO only dreams of.

    A standard range of calibres for cannon and artillery and missiles and small arms and vehicles and electronics and radars etc etc.

    Even their short range AAM will be a short range land based and naval SAM.

    Not going to be cheap, but when they are done they will have very very capable forces and sensible equipment.

    The new system i fell is to break those 40 years umbilical cord and venture in new terriotary that will last 30 - 40 years

    They seem to have learned the lessons...

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    Re: State Armaments Program 2011-2020

    Post  GarryB on Thu Jan 19, 2012 12:32 pm

    More importantly developing upgrades and improvements for the AAM can be applied to the SAMs as well for little extra outlay.

    To get more effective longer range 152mm artillery shells the Army and the Navy can pool finances and enjoy the benefits together.

    Increased production runs, training standardisation, pooling of spares and support will be cheaper... less retraining needed for mechanics moving from one ship or sub to the next.

    A huge reduction in the different chassis types in Russian Army service.

    A brigade will go from having one of 4-5 different types of MBT (T-64, T-72, T-80, T-90, even T-62 or T-55/54) plus one of 3 different BMP types (1,2,3), one of several BTR variants (60/70/80/82), plus all the extra vehicles like the T-80 chassis of the armoured BREM recovery vehicle, and the T-80 chassis of the MSTA, the special GM chassis of the Tunguska, the MTLB chassis for the SA-13 and of course the 6 wheeled chassis of the OSA, a truck mounted Grad, and all the BRDM light vehicles and MTLB based command vehicles and ATGM vehicles etc etc all in one brigade will be replaced by an Armata, a Typhoon, a Boomerang or a Kurganets-25.

    One engine type with perhaps a few different engine ratings for different weight vehicles, one main wheel type, one transmission, one track type... bliss.

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    Re: State Armaments Program 2011-2020

    Post  Austin on Thu Jan 19, 2012 12:35 pm

    yeah i see a lot of logistics advantage and commonality going with the new design .....in long term it would lead to tremendous cost saving , logistics saving and even maintenance cost.

    Thats perhaps the entire idea behind a Universal Combat Platform.

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    Re: State Armaments Program 2011-2020

    Post  Austin on Thu Jan 19, 2012 12:43 pm

    Bonus pay for officers and contract soldiers explained

    New pay structure for conscripts announced

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    Re: State Armaments Program 2011-2020

    Post  GarryB on Thu Jan 19, 2012 12:48 pm

    Yes, by breaking it down into three vehicles however they have not tried to do everything with one design.

    They have basically split everything down into MBT (Armata), BMP (Kurganets-25), BTR (Boomerang), and light vehicle... perhaps BMD (Typhoon) but wheeled.

    The difference is that the Armata will have better armour than the T-90, and the Kurganets-25 is 7 tons heavier than a BMP-3, and the Boomerang is 10 tons heavier than a BTR, while the Typhoon is pretty new and will have good armour for its weight.

    Bigger unknowns are firepower and protection types... we expect NERA and possibly APS and passive protection systems on all of them along with special armours and optimised layouts for crew and ammo and fuel to reduce casualties.

    Layouts that make entry and exit faster and easier, and the firepower to do the job in the 21st C.

    They will be adapted over time with new systems and features like powered armour and perhaps even EM guns and DIRCMs to protect them from optically guided missiles like Maverick, Javelin, Spike, Trigat-ER Laser homing Hellfire, and of course built in screens for radar and IR and optical sensors like nakidka etc.

    Will be interesting what is for export and when, but I suspect building entire brigades at a time will be the key.

    There is no sense in just building Armata Tanks and then integrating them into Heavy Brigades and then building the other Armata based vehicles when all the tanks are made.

    It would make more sense to build and test all the vehicle types in a Heavy Brigade and introducing Armata and Kurganets-25 and Boomerang and Typhoon brigades a whole brigade at a time.

    The lighter vehicles will obviously enter service much faster as they will be easier and cheaper to build.

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    Re: State Armaments Program 2011-2020

    Post  Austin on Tue Jan 24, 2012 6:41 pm

    Airborne Artillery in 2012 by a third update to its fleet - the Ministry of Defense
    http://ria.ru/defense_safety/


    Artillery Airborne Forces in 2012, will be staffed by a third by new self-propelled guns, told RIA Novosti the Russian Defence Ministry representative on Major Navy Irina Kruglov.

    "Airborne are armed with more than 20 self-propelled artillery (CAO) 2S25" Octopus-SD. "In 2011, the supply of guns in the Navy had been made, but before the end of 2012 Marines are planning to get about ten of these guns that will meet up to one thirds of the existing demand, "- she said.

    Light tracked amphibious aviadesantiruemaya antitank gun 2S25 "Octopus-SD" is designed for combat tanks, self-propelled gun mounts, armored personnel carriers and other mobile armored targets, fire support units paratroopers. Caliber - 125 mm, the maximum range - four kilometer rate - seven rounds per minute.

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    Re: State Armaments Program 2011-2020

    Post  TR1 on Tue Jan 24, 2012 7:06 pm

    Niiiice if true. Was pissed when they stopped buying Sprut.

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    Re: State Armaments Program 2011-2020

    Post  Austin on Sun Jan 29, 2012 6:40 pm

    Russia Is Remaking Its Armed Forces

    Russia continues to increase its defense expenditures to modernize military capabilities. Money in the growing budget is being spent to reshape the national military, which is being transformed into a smaller but more effective and better-equipped force.

    The federal budget for 2012 and 2013‑14, approved by the Duma in November, calls for further growth of defense expenditures despite a budget deficit. Expenditures could be up 20.9% to 1.85 trillion rubles ($59.8 billion) from 2011, and account for 14.6% of the budget versus 13.9% last year.

    Vice Premier Sergey Ivanov announced in late November that the defense procurement plan for 2012 that was to be approved by the end of last year could grow to 2.2 trillion rubles in 2013, and 2.6 trillion rubles in 2014. It may even be more: In the 2011 budget, for example, defense expenditures for 2012 and 2013 were estimated to be 1.6 trillion rubles and 2.1 trillion rubles, respectively.

    Military spending as a share of GDP will be 3.1% this year and grow to 3.6% in 2013 and 3.8% in 2014. The Duma’s defense committee notes that beginning in 2013, defense expenditures will finally match the target level of 3.5% of GDP set by Russia’s security council.

    Almost 77% of defense expenditures for 2012 will go for the national armed forces. Half of this—730 billion rubles—will be spent on procurement and development of new weapons, or 20% more than in 2011. In coming years these expenditures are set to increase significantly, by 58% in 2013 and by 26% in 2014. According to the military, the rearmament priorities include the strategic nuclear forces, ballistic missiles and air defense; aviation; space systems and systems for command, control, communication, reconnaissance and electronic warfare.

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    Russia’s new state arms procurement program through to 2025 will be developed by 2015

    Post  Russian Patriot on Fri Mar 16, 2012 7:54 pm

    Russia’s new state arms procurement program through to 2025 will be developed by 2015, Deputy Chief of the General Staff Maj. Gen. Igor Sheremet said on Thursday.

    In 2010, a 10-year arms procurement program was adopted, until 2020.

    “The state arms program is developed for a 10-year term,” he said in an interview with the Rossia 24 TV channel.

    “This means that we are to develop a state arms procurement program through 2025 not later than in 2015.”

    The program will be developed by the Military Analysis Committee of the Armed Forces, which is already “looking into 2030 and further on,” he said.

    http://www.en.ria.ru/mlitary_news/20120315/172192509.html

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    Re: State Armaments Program 2011-2020

    Post  GarryB on Fri Mar 16, 2012 11:25 pm

    Excellent.

    Will be interesting to see what is added and what is taken out.

    Some might be wondering what is the point of the 10 year plans overlapping... shouldn't they be 5 year plans instead?

    Lots of things need long term planning in terms of funding and development.

    There will be a 5 year plan too and it will need fewer changes because planning in the shorter term has fewer variables.

    A 10 year plan gives you a structure to base your shorter term plans on while still allowing for the future.

    A good example would be in the ship building industry.

    Some wonder why older ships are being upgraded like the Kirov and Slava class ships when starting from scratch new build ships would be better.

    The problem is that the shipyards are already busy making smaller vessels and there are only a few shipyards that can handle very large vessels. One shipyard is going to be busy from 2013 to 2017-19 giving the Kuznetsov an upgrade and overhaul and plans for new aircraft carriers plan for them to look at laying down hulls in 2020-2025, which means there is very limited time for working on cruisers.

    At the moment the work on a Destroyer is going slow, as are the new Frigates. The Talwar based frigates should be faster as they have experience in making those, so a full sized cruiser is a while away.

    More importantly there is no point having carriers and cruisers if you don't have all the smaller vessels that are needed too, so building frigates and destroyers now is a good thing anyway.

    The upgrades of large ships can be done in smaller shipyards too...

    The point of the revised 10 year plan in 2015 is to look at the previous plans... 2010-2020 and the 2010-2015 plans and look at what is on schedule and what is not. They built extra factories to make the S-400 faster, and they can check in 2015 whether that was enough to solve the problems and meet the deadlines or if further changes are needed.

    With the creation of the Aerospace Defence force they might have a lot of decisions to make there too.

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