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    Dogfight between F-15 and Su-27: Who should be the winner?

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    nemrod
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    Dogfight between F-15 and Su-27: Who should be the winner?

    Post  nemrod on Tue Jan 29, 2013 1:58 pm



    I wish to see a fair dogfight between Su 27/F 15. I wish to see who should be the winner. Unfortuneltly untill now, there was always US aircrafts won du to several reasons.
    The first US has the best pilots in the world, whatever aircraft, if we try to understand why, Since 1990's, -Soviet Union's collapse- untill now, USA has at least 16. trillions billions of $. At this point US air force can afford to train wery well its pilots. Meanwhile Russia in that time, has seen its military budget melted. Oviously if you oppose a pilot with at least 40h/week training, and a pilot with only -at the best- 5h/week, U cannot compare.
    U cannot compare too, when USA with huge coalition attacks third worlds country in the goal to loot it. I don't know enough the iraqian's case, but I know that, iraqian pilots were wery well trained, but not as US pilots. And the great question is how iraqian pilots did they choose ? Which criteriom did they be selected ? I don't know the yougaslaw's case, but, we know that serbian pilots were wery well trained, however enough to engage a Mig 29 versus F 15 ?

    For me the Su 27 with the Mig 29 are the best aircraft's dogfights since aviation exists. Unfortunetly the context was never favorable to engage against US aircrafts.

    Can someone tell us if Su 27 is better than F15 ? Have you examples of fair dogfights ?

    Best regards.

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    Re: Dogfight between F-15 and Su-27: Who should be the winner?

    Post  Vladimir79 on Tue Jan 29, 2013 2:43 pm

    Su-27 would definetly lose in the BVRAAM fight. The R-27 is a shit missile. In the dog fight, the Archer would reign supreme against legacy Sidewinders. Not so much against the AIM-9X.


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    Re: Dogfight between F-15 and Su-27: Who should be the winner?

    Post  Sujoy on Tue Jan 29, 2013 5:09 pm

    nemrod wrote:Can someone tell us if Su 27 is better than F15 ? Have you examples of fair dogfights ?


    Regarding a hypothetical dogfight between SU 27 and F 15 what I can tell you that here in India we have had numerable instances where our SU 30MKI clearly defeated US F 15s  in joint exercises both in India and Alaska in both WVR and BVR conflicts.

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    Re: Dogfight between F-15 and Su-27: Who should be the winner?

    Post  TR1 on Tue Jan 29, 2013 7:36 pm

    F-15 did not get AMRAAM until post Cold-War, until then it had no advantage over R-27.

    Up close, Su-27 is generally a notch above the Eagle, having a more modern aerodynamic scheme and systems.

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    Re: Dogfight between F-15 and Su-27: Who should be the winner?

    Post  nemrod on Tue Jan 29, 2013 10:23 pm

    At first thx to all for your responses.

    Vladimir79 wrote:Su-27 would definetly lose in the BVRAAM fight. The R-27 is a shit missile. In the dog fight, the Archer would reign supreme against legacy Sidewinders. Not so much against the AIM-9X.

    To Vladimir


    As Wikipedia : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BVRAAM

    The efficacy of BVR air to air missiles has been criticized. The increased success rate of BVR combat during Operation Desert Storm may have significantly depended on other factors, such as assistance of AWACS, NCTR system of F-15Cs, as well as enemy incompetency. Of major issue with BVR is still unreliable IFF technlogy (Identification friend or foe)....

    It seems that the US superiority is du to infrasture, and ...incompetencies. I don't want to critisize, but Iraqian pilots were often selected for their loyalities to sunni's baath's regime.
    You can see exactly the same thing concerning Syria's pilots, most of them are alaouits. No competencies is required chiefly, but loyality to the regime. In case of any war against Israel, or USA, most of the time there are no efficient resistance, hence a quick US victory.


    Regards.

    PS: Excuse my questions, sometimes they are mad, because Iam not specialists as you, I often look for responses than opinions. Again Iam not a specialist, Iam not military.


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    Re: Dogfight between F-15 and Su-27: Who should be the winner?

    Post  GarryB on Tue Jan 29, 2013 10:33 pm

    During the 1980s with an F-15 armed with Sparrows vs an Su-27 armed with R-27Es the Flanker would have the advantage of longer reach and a better missile, but such comparisons are problematic because fighter don't fight alone.

    BVR missiles of the period were not very reliable and had a fairly low kill rate and most fighters of the period relied on dogfight ability with short range AAMs like Sidewinder and Archer.

    NATO hugely underestimated the effect of Archer with a helmet mounted sight and so in combat the Flanker would be odds on favourite in WVR combat, and because of its extra reach and choice of weapons (ie SARH, IR, and passive radar homing) it should have an edge in BVR combat too... especially because the F-15 launching a Sparrow needed to continually paint the Flanker to get a hit, so the R-27EP passive homing missile could use that signal to kill the Eagle because its larger rocket motor and higher average flight speed should get it to the Eagle before the Sparrow gets near the Flanker.

    In a modern fight with an Su-35 and an F-15x it is harder to say.

    The important variables like tactics, rules of engagement, and pilot training mean no one could give a definitive answer... even the pilots themselves.

    as well as enemy incompetency. Of major issue with BVR is still unreliable IFF technlogy (Identification friend or foe)....

    It is hard to judge a Serbian or Iraqi pilot taking off in their aircraft against the best the west can deliver, in often old model fighters with weapons of dubious quality/handling.

    After all their air defence network is broken they are pretty much on their own and blind against an enemy that is well equipped and can create a large local superiority in numbers that really makes it very one sided... which is of course their goal... only an idiot fights fair when the stakes are death.

    I doubt that Saudi F-15s would have done better than Iraqi Mig-29s in Desert Storm.

    During tests in europe the Mig-29 did quite well against F-15s in both WVR and BVR tests and these were exported Mig-29s that could not use the larger R-27E model missiles, in fact they could only use the R-27R SARH missile, they couldn't even use the R-27T IR guided model or the R-27P passive radar homing missile let alone the R-27E models of those weapons with the larger longer burning rocket motors.

    Very simply the West will only fight on terms where it has an excellent chance of success with minimal chance of losses... hense Iran is not being attacked... and neither is Syria at the moment.


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    Re: Dogfight between F-15 and Su-27: Who should be the winner?

    Post  nemrod on Sun Feb 03, 2013 3:52 pm

    GarryB wrote:
    It is hard to judge a Serbian or Iraqi pilot taking off in their aircraft against the best the west can deliver, in often old model fighters with weapons of dubious quality/handling.

    After all their air defence network is broken they are pretty much on their own and blind against an enemy that is well equipped and can create a large local superiority in numbers that really makes it very one sided... which is of course their goal... only an idiot fights fair when the stakes are death.

    I doubt that Saudi F-15s would have done better than Iraqi Mig-29s in Desert Storm.

    During tests in europe the Mig-29 did quite well against F-15s in both WVR and BVR tests and these were exported Mig-29s that could not use the larger R-27E model missiles, in fact they could only use the R-27R SARH missile, they couldn't even use the R-27T IR guided model or the R-27P passive radar homing missile let alone the R-27E models of those weapons with the larger longer burning rocket motors.

    Very simply the West will only fight on terms where it has an excellent chance of success with minimal chance of losses... hense Iran is not being attacked... and neither is Syria at the moment.

    To Garry,
    Iam far to judge serbian know-how about pilots. Moreover I was supprised by the poor performances against Nato aircrafts. Noone can doubt by the serbian'serious militaries' staff. But in that time, everybody, I think, believed as me, the serbian's defeat was due at first by Yeltsin'coward's adminstration's behaviour. They left Serbia, loosing parts of its terrority as Kossovo, making confidence to the great Satan.
    However a few years later, the great Satan, turn back against Russia, in Chechenya, Ingushia, and later Georgia, without forgetting that Estonia, Lituania, Letonia, are parts from Russia, where Nato wants to install nuclear devices, in the goal to attack Russia, in the future. This is the price to pay, for people having confidence to the great Satan. Fortunetly now, Russian people realized that they were trapped by the Washington' Zionist'terrorist's regime. And Russia is shifting its politics.

    Concerning arabs pilots, what I said is : the first criterium's selection was not competemcies, but chieftly regime' loyality either Iraqians, or Syrians pilots.
    Nevertheless I agree with you, US attack countries only if they are sure to avoid losts, if they are sure to loot it after the war, and they can completly destruct them. US is the only one country in the world to use nuclear weapons against civilians, Nagaski, and Hiroshima can witness. Many people are still convinced by this genocide as a good thing.
    Moreover during the first Gulf war in 1991, I suspect Chevardnaze -last soviet Foreign minister, far from the great Gromiko- to pass to US the secret Iraqi defence, as radar frequencies, sam weaknesses. If someone can help us to give more informations, please do not hesitate.

    Regards.

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    Re: Dogfight between F-15 and Su-27: Who should be the winner?

    Post  GarryB on Mon Feb 04, 2013 9:32 am

    Moreover I was supprised by the poor performances against Nato aircrafts. Noone can doubt by the serbian'serious militaries' staff.

    I was surprised at the courage of the Serbian pilots... taking off in Mig-29s with radars that didn't work because they had not been properly serviced against the best NATO could put together at a time when NATO had used former East German Mig-29s of a similar type to those used by Serbia and trained for a decade to learn its strengths and weaknesses.

    Under the circumstances it should always have been a very one sided battle and both sides knew that... hense the Serbian pilots displayed a lot of courage still getting into those seats and taking off... given the same situation I doubt most of those NATO pilots would have turned up for work that morning.

    But in that time, everybody, I think, believed as me, the serbian's defeat was due at first by Yeltsin'coward's adminstration's behaviour. They left Serbia, loosing parts of its terrority as Kossovo, making confidence to the great Satan.

    Yeltsin made a lot of mistakes... he believed the west was his friend, when in fact they have no friends... just interests.

    There were very few things Yeltsin could realistically do to save Kosovo... he was very much in the same position as the US in regard to Georgia and South Ossetia and Abkhazia. Lots of talk but nothing really could be done. I mean he even sent a VDV unit to Pristina... which was rather more than what the US did for Georgia.

    Nevertheless I agree with you, US attack countries only if they are sure to avoid losts, if they are sure to loot it after the war, and they can completly destruct them.

    More than that, the US benefits from cheap oil, because they need oil to be cheap to operate efficiently, so they don't even need to win all the oil contracts in Iraq... they just need to bomb the crap out of Iraq so that Iraq needs to pump a lot of oil to generate the revenue to pay for its own reconstruction.

    Of course reequipping their military gives them something to do with all those F-16s they are going to be replacing with F-35s too.


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    Re: Dogfight between F-15 and Su-27: Who should be the winner?

    Post  nemrod on Mon Feb 04, 2013 1:55 pm

    Garry, Iam still convice that if Russia wanted, Serbia could win its war against Nato, but in that time, Russia's adminstration wanted to collaborated with USA.


    Yeltsin made a lot of mistakes... he believed the west was his friend, when in fact they have no friends... just interests.

    Yetlsin did not do mistakes, but compleltly betrayed Russia. Yeltsin, Gorbatchov, Tchernomirdin, etc... and most russians's politicians in that time, were true bastards. They fed up with Russia, russian's people interrests.
    This was golden age of other foreign billionaires -in fact true mafia's criminals-, Berezovski, Abrahmaovics, Khodorovski, etc...They spoke russian, they borned in Russia, however their hearts were towards $, Jerusalem, and Washington, totally ignoring what -the wonderfull people- russian's people is. Moreover they despise russia's people.
    Yeltsin adminstratiion helped these ugly bastards, meanwhile russian people fall into poverty.
    Obviously in that context, did they feel -Yeltsin's adminstration, he is not the alone- something for their slavian's brothers ? Not at all.

    Today, a new era is rising, Russia has a new dynamic politicians, that seems to be true russians's patriots, true brave slavians, and with Russia's people know-how, Russia with the Chinese's help can end US empire.
    In fact, Iam muslim, friend among hundreds of millions muslims of Russia , totally opposed of US hégemonic empire, and their muslims religious'extremists criminal lackeys.
    Each new russian's weapons, new russian's innovations is a good news for us.
    Now more than never Russia will have to help Serbia in the goal to retrieve Kossovo, as Russia is helping now Syria.

    Regards.

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    Re: Dogfight between F-15 and Su-27: Who should be the winner?

    Post  GarryB on Tue Feb 05, 2013 9:38 am

    I disagree... Yeltsins Russia was not the same Russia we see today.

    I am pretty sure NATO would not have been able to intervene in Kosovo so easily today, but I think they are still dumb enough to have done it anyway.

    The reality is that when Kosovo declared independence Putin responded by opening Russian borders with Abkhazia and South Ossetia.

    Before, when Russian borders were closed as per agreement, both regions were totally dependent on Georgia commercially and politically, but Putin knew that opening Russian borders with both regions would give them a real independence that Georgia simply could not tolerate and we know what happened then.

    The west will not admit it, but the cost of Kosovo becoming Albanian was South Ossetia and Abkhazia getting their independence.

    Ironically it was Russian troops stationed in both regions as peacekeepers that stopped the CFE treaty from being signed by most of the western states, they claimed that Russian troops stationed in both regions violated the CFE agreement. Of course Russia could therefore argue that NATO troops stationed in Kosovo did the same, but there is no point arguing logic to an idiot or a hypocrite.

    Today is a new era for Russia, and I hope Serbia can join Russia and become strong and stable and forward looking and that lost territory can be returned.

    NATO was happy to open the pandoras box... if an Albanian majority in Kosovo can claim independence to escape persecution, then why can't Serbs in Kosovo claim independence to escape EU and Albanian persecution?

    If the Albanians deserve independence then why not the three strands of Bosnia?


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    Re: Dogfight between F-15 and Su-27: Who should be the winner?

    Post  flamming_python on Fri Feb 15, 2013 9:19 am

    nemrod wrote:Garry, Iam still convice that if Russia wanted, Serbia could win its war against Nato, but in that time, Russia's adminstration wanted to collaborated with USA.


    Yeltsin made a lot of mistakes... he believed the west was his friend, when in fact they have no friends... just interests.

    Yetlsin did not do mistakes, but compleltly betrayed Russia. Yeltsin, Gorbatchov, Tchernomirdin, etc... and most russians's politicians in that time, were true bastards. They fed up with Russia, russian's people interrests.
    This was golden age of other foreign billionaires -in fact true mafia's criminals-, Berezovski, Abrahmaovics, Khodorovski, etc...They spoke russian, they borned in Russia, however their hearts were towards $, Jerusalem, and Washington, totally ignoring what -the wonderfull people- russian's people is. Moreover they despise russia's people.
    Yeltsin adminstratiion helped these ugly bastards, meanwhile russian people fall into poverty.
    Obviously in that context, did they feel -Yeltsin's adminstration, he is not the alone- something for their slavian's brothers ? Not at all.

    Today, a new era is rising, Russia has a new dynamic politicians, that seems to be true russians's patriots, true brave slavians, and with Russia's people know-how, Russia with the Chinese's help can end US empire.
    In fact, Iam muslim, friend among hundreds of millions muslims of Russia , totally opposed of US hégemonic empire, and their muslims religious'extremists criminal lackeys.
    Each new russian's weapons, new russian's innovations is a good news for us.
    Now more than never Russia will have to help Serbia in the goal to retrieve Kossovo, as Russia is helping now Syria.

    Regards.

    Serbia made its own mistakes too.
    I do feel sorry for it though - everyone in the Balkan wars was guilty of all the same sorts of things as far as I'm concerned - yet it was Serbia/Serbs that were internationally demonised, bombed for 70+ days straight, territory broken off, ultimately softly ethnically cleansed in various other parts of former Yugoslavia and on top of all that is now forced to accept war-guilt, ultimate responsibility for starting the war, and the prosecution of all its generals and leaders.

    All the while, the same generals of other countries (e.g. Croatia) are acquitted by international courts and greeted as heroes at home by masses on the street,
    Or the same leaders of other countries (e.g. Kosovo) are recognized by most of Europe and the rest of the Western world as international leaders, continue to rule their nations and gain whatever financial and development help they need, have their security guaranteed, etc... despite the fact that they have been personally implicated in the very same sort ethnic cleansing, terrorism or criminal activities as Milosevic & co.

    It's at times like these that I'm glad Russia has the nuclear arsenal that it has.

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    Re: Dogfight between F-15 and Su-27: Who should be the winner?

    Post  Regular on Mon Mar 11, 2013 4:52 pm

    I don't know much about aviation in general, but if I understand correctly Soviets didn't try to achieve air superiority by quality as their purpose was not to let Nato to achieve domination in the air. VVS with the help of mobile AD "umbrellas" could help to cover armoured push through Europe so OMG could be fully implemented. If everything would go perfect for Soviets NATO would loose one airfield after another with their airforce melting down not only by kills in the air but to evacuation, artillery and missile strikes. NATO CAS would be one way mission and pilot of A-10 would be lucky to even empty his payload before getting shot down. Am I correct or i'm misunderstanding the concept of Soviet aviation? Now new Russian jets are filled with hitech gadgets and LCD screens rather than analogs and etc etc. I think that even the quality of metals and composites improved not to mention quality of assembly and professionalism of companies like Sukhoi.
    Sorry for oftopic, but to be honest under capitalism Russia achieved so much but people don't always give a credit for it. Everyone in the west was waiting new Russia to collapse but even under Yelcin nothing like that happened. I don't think that Russian politics are very patriotic or less of a thieves than under Yelcin. They are not very keen of letting young folk in but time is against them and they can't mess with russian people anymore. What Russia needs is a good opposition that could give a nice balance and sometimes give pressure when it's needed. And sane liberals too. Those that Russia have are a joke. There is a saying that russians can't live without ruller/opressor. It sounds pathetic now. Heck even far east Russia is more European than some countries in EU. Sorry for my rant and poor English

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    Re: Dogfight between F-15 and Su-27: Who should be the winner?

    Post  GarryB on Tue Mar 12, 2013 11:12 am

    The Soviets didn't really have an air force as such... they had 5.

    They had an air force that was only interested in air defence called the PVO and had SAMs and interceptors and radars and ground stations, they had an air force designed specifically to support the ground forces called Frontal Aviation that was armed with interceptors and SAMs and Fighters and strike aircraft. There was also DA or long range aviation that was involved in strategic bombing and transport, plus Naval Aviation and Army Aviation (the latter was helicopters and CAS aircraft like the Su-25).

    At the end of the day the Russian Army knows what it is like to fight without air superiority and expects to fight alone (without air cover), and so it has its own SAM network and air defence system too. Where a US unit might call in an airstrike, the Russian Army might call in an Iskander attack.

    As the sophistication of the aircraft improves the air force aircraft are becoming much more capable, but then with precision guided weapons like artillery shells from Coalition with 70km range and 10m CEP with Glonass guidance the capabilities of the Russian military will be several orders of magnitude higher than the Soviet forces even though the Russian forces will be much smaller.


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    ― Samuel P. Huntington, The Clash of Civilizations and the Remaking of World Order

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    su27 vs f15?

    Post  HM1199 on Mon Jul 18, 2016 7:19 pm

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mNgwIsCKwcw
    guys these people are actually sying that the su27 is lesser than f15 in maneuverability , most notably , they are only judging them in energy maneuverability

    as far as i can find , there are too many mistakes , what do you guys think?

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    Re: Dogfight between F-15 and Su-27: Who should be the winner?

    Post  GarryB on Tue Jul 19, 2016 11:44 am

    Hi, Sorry... Tried to move your post from the S-300 thread (where it did not belong) to this thread, but I seem to have deleted it.

    Glad you repeated your question here.

    BTW it is a forum rule to introduce yourself in the introductions and rules thread.

    Please take the time to introduce yourself and read the intros of other members so you know who you are talking to.

    Also please take the time to read the rules.

    Thanks and welcome to the forum.


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    ― Samuel P. Huntington, The Clash of Civilizations and the Remaking of World Order

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    Re: Dogfight between F-15 and Su-27: Who should be the winner?

    Post  nemrod on Sat Jul 23, 2016 7:40 pm

    HM1199 wrote:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mNgwIsCKwcw
    guys these people are actually sying that the su27 is lesser than f15 in maneuverability , most notably , they are only judging them in energy maneuverability

    as far as i can find , there are too many mistakes , what do you guys think?
    Thx for this useful video. Very Happy

    ...the su27 is lesser than f15 in maneuverability...
    It is simply a joke. Nevertheless, dogfight, or any air-combat relies mostly on pilot. More the pilot is trained, more the pilot is skilled better it is. Now the question is how are the russian, US, NATO pilots trained ? During exercises between indians vs western pilots that were Cope India 2004, 2005, and Red Flags, indian pilots did have SU-27 variants, they demonstrated that they were at least equivalents to their western counterparts, hence, the SU-27 were at least equivalent to their opponents as F-15, F-16.
    Once this is said, most of western sites often overstated the qualities of their national hardware, rare, very rare are objectives blogs. What could I say ?
    If you have a loser, or a tacky pilot inside a SU-27, and you put a high skill pilot inside an A-4, F-4 Phantom, or inside F-105, U could see an easy F-105's victory.
    If you put a high skill pilot inside a Mig-23, and a loser inside an F-122, U will see an easy Mig-23's victory. The dogfight relies on pilot, and not on the fighter. The hardware could help of course, but in most of the case the pilot is the ultimate issue.

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    Russia's F-15 Killer: Why America (and the World) Fears the Su-27 Flanker

    Post  nemrod on Sat Jul 23, 2016 11:59 pm

    During air battle in Middle east the syrian Mig-21 Bis overcame israeli's -the end of the 70's-  F-15 A during dogfight. The Mig-23 MF, and ML downed several israeli F-15 A, and F-16 A -1982 to 1985- that is supposed to be more manoeuvrable than F-16 C. No use to tell more about the ultra manoeuvrable Mig-29. The F-15 is far to be exceptional, neither the F-16, nor the F-18. If indeed in 1991 Iraq War few Mig-29 were downed by F-15, there was mostly due to the ratio 5-10 against 1 in favour of US coalition . Meanwhile some western fighters were downed too. Moreover, most of iraqi Mig-29 were fleeing to Iran, and tried to avoid western coalition's fighters. During the Serbia's war most of serbian's Mig-29 were not in situation to fly, even less to fight. They lacked of spare spates, malfunctioning avionics, engines, serbian pilotes did not exceed to train more than 20 hours/year. In this condition it is easy to claim that the F-15 is the best fighter. Until now it is hard to say if the F-15 was a real success. Americans are well aware.  

    http://nationalinterest.org/feature/russias-f-15-killer-why-america-the-world-fears-the-su-27-17082


    Russia's F-15 Killer: Why America (and the World) Fears the Su-27 Flanker

    It was the USSR’s best plane—and it still packs one heck of a punch.
    Robert Farley
    July 22, 2016
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    To the West, most of the legendary Soviet aircraft of the Cold War came from the design bureau Mikoyan Gurevitch, which spawned such aircraft as the MiG-15 “Fagot,” MiG-21 “Fishbed,” MiG-25 “Foxbat” and MiG-29 “Fulcrum.” The single best Soviet fighter of the Cold War, however, was Sukhoi’s Su-27 “Flanker.” Intended both to defeat U.S. fighters over central Europe in a NATO-Warsaw Pact conflict and to patrol the airspace of the Soviet Union against U.S. bomber incursions, the Su-27 survived the end of the Cold War to become one of the world’s premier export fighters.

    Origins

    The Flanker emerged as part of the high part of the high-low fighter mix that both the United States and the Soviet Union adopted in the 1970s and 1980s. In the U.S. Air Force this manifested in the F-15 and F-16; in the U.S. Navy, the F-14 and F/A-18. The MiG-29 “Fulcrum” played the light role in the Soviet partnership.

    Sukhoi designed the Flanker with the capabilities of the F-15 Eagle firmly in mind, and the aircraft that emerged resembles the fast, heavily armed, long-ranged Eagle in many ways. Whereas the Eagle looks healthy and well-fed, the Flanker has a gaunt, hungry appearance. Although designed as an air superiority aircraft, the Su-27 (much like the Eagle) has proven flexible enough to adapt to interceptor and ground strike roles. Sukhoi has also developed a wide family of variants, specialized for particular missions but retaining overall multirole capabilities.

    The Su-27 entered service more slowly than its fourth-generation counterparts in the United States (or the MiG-29, for that matter). A series of disastrous tests bedeviled the program’s early years, with several pilots dying in early versions of the Flanker. As it entered service in the mid-1980s, production problems slowed its transition to front-line status. And of course, the end of the Cold War curtailed the overall production run of the aircraft.

    The Su-27’s capabilities are formidable. The Flanker can reach Mach 2.35 with a thrust-to-weight ratio above one (depending on fuel load). It can carry up to eight air-to-air missiles (generally of short to medium range; other variants specialize in Beyond Visual Range combat) or an array of bombs and missiles. In the hands of an experienced pilot, the Su-27 can carry out a bewildering array of maneuvers, many of which have delighted air show audiences across Russia and Europe.

    The basic Su-27 frame has proven remarkably flexible. The Russian Air Force has modified most of its existing Flanker fleet with a variety of advanced avionics, improving its air-to-air capacity and also giving it an effective ground attack capability. Several Flanker variants have acquired their own designations, especially on the export side.

    Export

    The original version of the Flanker has enjoyed tremendous export success, and still flies in eleven air forces around the world. The bulk of aircraft fly in Russian (359) and Chinese (fifty-nine) service. In some smoldering conflicts (Russia-Ukraine, Ethiopia-Eritrea, Vietnam-China) both sides fly Su-27s. Overall, 809 Flankers have entered service, plus large production orders for several variants.

    The transfer of Su-27s to China caused a surprising amount of friction between Moscow and Beijing. China purchased some Flankers off the shelf, agreed to coproduce another batch, and acquired a license for production of additional aircraft. However, Russia soon accused China of violating the terms of the agreement by installing its own avionics on the J-11 (as the Chinese designated their own Flankers), appropriating Russian intellectual property and developing a carrier variant (eventually the J-16). The dispute cooled Russian enthusiasm for arms exports to China, a situation that persists today.

    Combat

    For such a remarkable aircraft, the Su-27 has seen relatively little combat. It has flown combat missions in several theaters across the world, although it has yet to serve in a sustained air superiority campaign. Flankers flew in some of the wars that characterized the disintegration of the Soviet Union, and have constituted the core of Russian airpower in the Wars of Russian Reconsolidation. Indeed, Su-27s have flown on both sides of the spasmodic conflict in Ukraine. Su-27s in Russian service also currently fly in Syria. In foreign service, the Su-27 has flown in the Angolan Civil War and the Ethiopia-Eritrea War, scoring its only air-to-air victories (over Eritrean MiG-29s) in the latter.

    The Su-27 was the last of the major fourth-generation fighters to enter service, and has proven an exceedingly successful design. Big enough and powerful enough to sustain a number of modifications and improvements, the Flanker should continue to see service (and even production) for quite some time. This is especially true given the uncertainty associated with the future of the PAK FA, the fifth-generation stealth fighter intended to replace both the MiG-29 and the Su-27.

    Robert Farley, a frequent contributor to the National Interest, is author of The Battleship Book. He serves as a senior lecturer at the Patterson School of Diplomacy and International Commerce at the University of Kentucky. His work includes military doctrine, national security and maritime affairs. He blogs at Lawyers, Guns and Money, Information Dissemination and the Diplomat.

    Image: Sukhoi Su-27SM. Wikimedia Commons/Fedor Leukhin




    hoom
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    Re: Dogfight between F-15 and Su-27: Who should be the winner?

    Post  hoom on Wed Jul 27, 2016 5:05 am

    guys these people are actually sying that the su27 is lesser than f15 in maneuverability , most notably , they are only judging them in energy maneuverability
    Lots of (often laughably irrelevant) technical terms hiding not much of a cohesive comparison.

    I'd need to see their instantaneous/sustained turn & lift to drag/thrust to weight numbers in a proper comparison table to see if I believe them.
    From listening I don't think they are using fair loadout/height comparison to claim better turns/thrust to weight.

    Lots of bullshit like the idea that the Su-27 swept wing suffers from tip loss that somehow a delta doesn't, that F-15 has a lifting body but Su-27 doesn't.

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    Re: Dogfight between F-15 and Su-27: Who should be the winner?

    Post  GarryB on Wed Jul 27, 2016 11:41 am

    The Su-27UB has slightly lower performance than the Su-27.

    The Su-30M is basically an Su-27UB.

    During exercises I have read of F-15s going up against Su-27UBs where each aircraft would start in front of the other aircraft (ie the other aircraft starting on their 6)and have to manouver to get the enemy aircraft off their tail.

    They did this repeatedly starting with the Su-30 in front and with the F-15 in front and in every case the F-15 could not lose its Su-30 tail, while the Su-30 repeatedly lost its F-15 tail.

    Note of course later model Su-30M and MK have improved engines and flight control systems etc etc and can fly even better.


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    Re: Dogfight between F-15 and Su-27: Who should be the winner?

    Post  nemrod on Wed Jul 27, 2016 8:56 pm

    GarryB wrote:

    During exercises I have read of F-15s going up against Su-27UBs where each aircraft would start in front of the other aircraft (ie the other aircraft starting on their 6)and have to manouver to get the enemy aircraft off their tail.

    They did this repeatedly starting with the Su-30 in front and with the F-15 in front and in every case the F-15 could not lose its Su-30 tail, while the Su-30 repeatedly lost its F-15 tail.
    Do U mean that F-15 overcame SU-27/30 ? Was/is the F-15 superior than Flanker ?

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    Re: Dogfight between F-15 and Su-27: Who should be the winner?

    Post  sepheronx on Wed Jul 27, 2016 9:52 pm

    Other way around. Su-30 was able to lose the F-15 that was following/tracking it while Su-30 was able to stay on/track the F-15's.

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    Re: Dogfight between F-15 and Su-27: Who should be the winner?

    Post  medo on Thu Jul 28, 2016 6:38 pm

    As far as I know, Russian Su-27 fighters win in their exercises with US F-15C fighters in the nineties and Indian Su-30K as well in their exercise with US F-15C in 2004. Su-30MKI/MKM with TVC are far different beasts and I'm sure Su-30M(K)2 as well.

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    Re: Dogfight between F-15 and Su-27: Who should be the winner?

    Post  Pincus Shain on Mon Aug 01, 2016 2:29 pm

    Assuming equally well trained pilots and a one on one engagement with all things being equal, when they were introduced the Su-27 with its HMS and R-73 had a MASSIVE advantage over the F-15A and its Aim-9's. In short it would be a very one sided fight with the flanker dominating.

    In BVR the F-15 had the edge. A better radar, better missiles (R-27 proved to be a failure in combat, so did the AIM-7 but the R-27 was even a poorer performer) would put the flanker at a disadvantage.

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    Re: Dogfight between F-15 and Su-27: Who should be the winner?

    Post  GarryB on Wed Aug 03, 2016 12:59 pm

    The R-27s tested on the MiG-29s in East German service proved to be equivalent to the Sparrow used on F-15s in tests.

    The Flanker had the capacity to carry the larger heavier faster longer ranged R-27E, which would have been able to reach further than any model Sparrow at the time and gone faster than any model Sparrow.

    That should have given them quite an edge especially considering the F-15 would need to continuously illuminate the Su-27 for the Sparrow to have any chance of a hit... using R-27EP passive homing models the signal the F-15 used to guide its sparrow would be targeted by the passive homing R-27EP in a fire and forget mode that would allow the Su-27 to perform any manouver after launch while the F-15 would have to keep flying towards the Su-27 to keep it illuminated.

    The higher speed and longer range of the Soviet missile should mean a high kill probability for the passive radar homing weapon... not to mention the SARH model or IR model as further options.

    In turning combat the R-27T and R-27ET offer IR guided missiles of much better kinetic performance than any model Sidewinder...


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