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    Russia: Space News and Discussion

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    PapaDragon
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    Re: Russia: Space News and Discussion

    Post  PapaDragon on Sat Dec 26, 2015 3:28 pm


    Double checked on Phobos and yeah, Zenit, my bad.

    Still baseline problem is the same, antiquated Soviet gear.

    Best thing about Ukraine collapse is that Russia has finally been forced to abandon old junk and move on.



    Rmf
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    Re: Russia: Space News and Discussion

    Post  Rmf on Sat Dec 26, 2015 8:47 pm

    only real work of energya company is building engine and other components of zenit and you want it cancelled??.... omg its mostly russian stop self-trolling yourself.

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    Re: Russia: Space News and Discussion

    Post  Big_Gazza on Sun Dec 27, 2015 3:14 am

    Rmf wrote:only real work of energya company is building engine and other components of zenit and you want it cancelled??.... omg its mostly russian stop self-trolling yourself.

    Energia is the lead developer of Soyuz & Progress, and while they build the Blok DM-SL for the Sea Launch Zenit-3, the Blok-D is also used on Proton and modifications are slated for use on Angara. They won't be hurt much by the abandonment of the Ukropistani Zenit, and a complete rejection of this rocket is mandatory for Russian self-interest and national security. The quicker the Ukr rocket industry decays away the sooner the Banderite military rocketry capabilities will degrade. The idea of SS-19/UR-100 class missiles in the hands of the Banderites is a frightening prospect.

    It's a pity as Zenit was a very fine rocket, and had loads of remaining development potential, but everything the Ukrop curse touches will turn to shit, and the ex-Soviet crown jewels of Yuznoy/Yuzhmash (& Antonov) are doomed under the current Banderite (mis)Managment.

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    Re: Russia: Space News and Discussion

    Post  PapaDragon on Sun Dec 27, 2015 4:50 am

    Rmf wrote:only real work of energya company is building engine and other components of zenit and you want it cancelled??.... omg its mostly russian stop self-trolling yourself.

    Only work??!!?!

    Dude you literally don't have a clue about anything even remotely related to this entire topic do you?

    Jesus man at least check out wiki once a year or something... baby steps...


    Vann7
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    Re: Russia: Space News and Discussion

    Post  Vann7 on Mon Dec 28, 2015 9:23 am

    Big_Gazza wrote:
    PapaDragon wrote:
    Austin wrote:
    PapaDragon wrote:
    Austin wrote:Last Proton-M launch today Successful , Out of the total 8 Proton-M launch in GTO orbit this year , 7 are successful and 1 failure  russia

    Express-AMU1 telecommunications satellite taken to designated orbit

    http://tass.ru/en/science/846884


    Good news on the launch but I just can't wait for this Proton junk to finally be replaced....

    The designer mentioned Proton-M will be operational till 2025 , till that time Angara will become fully operational. They would be upgrading Proton some where in 2020 with some digital stuff not major upgrade as such.

    Proton has been very reliable launch platform they need better QA and QC process

    And yet every relevant scientific mission that involved Proton failed spectacularly (Phobos-Grunt anyone?)

    You can polish the turd but it is still a turd. QA and QC are no excuse, whole concept is obsolete, electronics, design, fuel, infrastructure, everything....


    errr.... Phobos-Grunt was launched on a Ukrainian Zenit.

    In any case, Protons problems over the last 10 years are all QA/QC or human related, (and most are Briz issues, not Proton) and its unfair to judge the entire system on the inevitable problems caused by 20+ years of brain-drain, aging/retiring workforce and economic hardship since the USSR break-up.  Consider the last few failures:

    MexSat-1 (16-6-2015) - Cause was QA/QC fail. 3rd stage vernier engine failure due to use of down-graded material. (*)

    Express AM4R (15-5-2014) - Cause was QA/QC fail. Same details as the subsequent failure of MexSat-1.

    Glonass x3 (02-07-2013) - Cause was QA/QC fail and human error. Yaw sensors installed upside down.

    Yamal-402 partial-failure (08-12-2012) - Cause was QA/QC fail and/or design issue. Early shutdown of Briz-M 4th burn caused by turbopump bearing failure.

    Telkom-3/Express MD2 (06-06-2012) - Cause was QA/QC FAIL.  Piping rupture in Briz-M upper stage on 4th burn.

    Express AM4 (17-08-2011) - Cause was human error. Incorrect parameter entered into Briz-M flight program.

    Glonass x3 (05-12-2010) - Cause was human error. Excessive fuel loaded to upper stage.

    AMC-14 (14 March 2008) - Cause was QA/QC fail.  Piping rupture in Briz-M upper stage on 2nd burn.

    JCSAT-11 (5 September 2007) - Cause was QA/QC fail. Damaged pyro-bolt firing cable.

    (*) This was a known issue back in the USSR, but the material upgrade which solved the issue was not properly documented, and subsequent generations of engineering and QAQC personnel simply were not aware of the issue.  Crazy as it sounds...

    Ultimately, how long Proton continues to fly is not just dependent upon the A5 test program, but on the Kazakh government and how long it is content to fly a heavy launcher in spite of its toxic propellants and consequent environmental issues.  Proton manufacturing and launch infrastructure (and the manned expertise to operate it) exist today and I can't see either the Russian or Kazakh governments throwing away a capability that is cost effective and provides a back-up to Angara services.

    Quality control issues are totally unaceptable  , that only means the supervision failed big
    time and that people needs to be fired from his job. Mounting electronics or equipment
    "up side down" is total idiocy.. if Russian engineers had any brain they will design 100%
    of all its mechanical and electronics parts and sensors in such a way that are idiot proof.
    that cannot connect if done wrongly. after 50 years of launching rockets ,they should have
    developed a Rocket that can only be assembled in only one way and is impossible to
    connect any equipment incorrectly.. either is done right or doesn't fit. This happen in Computer
    parts . that most connectors only work in one way , like your hard drives ,cables.. that is impossible to attach them in reversed way..simply does not fit.  Also Russia after 50 years
    in space should have a system to very quickly inspect and or repair and check easily any space rocket part or sensor operation.

    My believe are some of those crashes however have been Sabotage ,and things like this have been said not by just me or the average joe ,who nobody knows.. but by no less that Rogozin.
    So Russia needs to deal with the potential malicious sababotage by Americans on its space program.. will Americans be capable to do something like that? absolutely.. Sabotage is part of their style ,it will be rare for me, if the CIA or Pentagon did not at very least attempted to shutdown a Russian space rocket before.  Americans cannot allow Russia to take the lead in space , that will be a major boost for Russia world image and boost to its economy in contracts
    and cooperation with Europe.. in times that Americans wants to see Russia isolated from the world.

    for example look at the proton rocket explosion last year..
    look the video in 1080p in full screen and notice the white object..



    You will notice with pure naked eye ,without zooming the came at the second 53 an object that should not be there near collision path of the rocket.  , that an object flew towards the
    proton rocket. it was clearly visible , from RT video when was live and noticed that thing.
    before any conspiration of "aliens" began. The first thing i though ,was shut down . because that
    object was not supposed to be there. But Russia denied all ,but a clear object was suspiciously in the same flight path of the Proton,and seems as if it intercepted the rocket. by more more careful studied video i posted using special programs of contrast. hit by a big object.and Americans will have no problem to shut it down secretly if they know the flight path of the rocket and the time it will be launched.

    later conspiration theorist began to claim it was an "UFO"..  but for me it was more likely either space junk ,that will be really bad luck.. or either it was a explosive ,an american deployed space mine from one of its satellites ,(that they militarised space already) that the proton flew near , or a rail gun attack. Something hit the Proton and Russia covered it.. with an excuse. perhaps to have time to think in the retaliation for the attack and keep things under the radar ,to solve the issue through internal channels ,avoiding an humiliation for not responding with war ,if it was one.

    kvs
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    Re: Russia: Space News and Discussion

    Post  kvs on Mon Dec 28, 2015 3:57 pm

    @Vann7,

    You are wrong, it is always easier to destroy than to build. Even your hypothetical "foolproof" systems would be
    open to sabotage. It was not an "idiot" that hammered in the sensors upside down, it was a saboteur. The
    act of hammering proves it was sabotage. The sensors are designed to only go in one way and need to be
    forced any other way. So right there your whole spiel about Russian engineers failing to design "foolproof"
    components is BS.

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    Re: Russia: Space News and Discussion

    Post  Big_Gazza on Mon Dec 28, 2015 5:09 pm

    Vann7 wrote:

    Quality control issues are totally unaceptable  , that only means the supervision failed big
    time and that people needs to be fired from his job. Mounting electronics or equipment
    "up side down" is total idiocy.. if Russian engineers had any brain they will design 100%
    of all its mechanical and electronics parts and sensors in such a way that are idiot proof.
    that cannot connect if done wrongly. after 50 years of launching rockets ,they should have
    developed a Rocket that can only be assembled in only one way and is impossible to
    connect any equipment incorrectly.. either is done right or doesn't fit. This happen in Computer
    parts . that most connectors only work in one way , like your hard drives ,cables.. that is impossible to attach them in reversed way..simply does not fit.  Also Russia after 50 years
    in space should have a system to very quickly inspect and or repair and check easily any space rocket part or sensor operation.

    My believe are some of those crashes however have been Sabotage ,and things like this have been said not by just me or the average joe ,who nobody knows.. but by no less that Rogozin.
    So Russia needs to deal with the potential malicious sababotage by Americans on its space program.. will Americans be capable to do something like that? absolutely.. Sabotage is part of their style ,it will be rare for me, if the CIA or Pentagon did not at very least attempted to shutdown a Russian space rocket before.  Americans cannot allow Russia to take the lead in space , that will be a major boost for Russia world image and boost to its economy in contracts
    and cooperation with Europe.. in times that Americans wants to see Russia isolated from the world.

    for example look at the proton rocket explosion last year..
    look the video in 1080p in full screen and notice the white object..



    You will notice with pure naked eye ,without zooming the came at the second 53 an object that should not be there near collision path of the rocket.  , that an object flew towards the
    proton rocket. it was clearly visible , from RT video when was live and noticed that thing.
    before any conspiration of "aliens" began. The first thing i though ,was shut down . because that
    object was not supposed to be there. But Russia denied all ,but a clear object was suspiciously in the same flight path of the Proton,and seems as if it intercepted the rocket. by more more careful studied video i posted using special programs of contrast.  hit by a big object.and Americans will have no problem to shut it down secretly if they know the flight path of the rocket and the time it will be launched.

    later conspiration theorist began to claim it was an "UFO"..  but for me it was more likely either space junk ,that will be really bad luck.. or either it was a explosive ,an american deployed space mine from one of its satellites ,(that they militarised space already) that the proton flew near , or a rail gun attack. Something hit the Proton and Russia covered it.. with an excuse. perhaps to have time to think in the retaliation for the attack and keep things under the radar ,to solve the issue through internal channels ,avoiding an humiliation for not responding with war ,if it was one.

    That video was the Express AM4 launch, and it failed due to fault in the inertial control system due to incorrect parameter entry.  There was no collision with unidentified objects...

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    Re: Russia: Space News and Discussion

    Post  Big_Gazza on Mon Dec 28, 2015 5:21 pm

    kvs wrote:@Vann7,

    You are wrong, it is always easier to destroy than to build.   Even your hypothetical "foolproof" systems would be
    open to sabotage.   It was not an "idiot" that hammered in the sensors upside down, it was a saboteur.   The
    act of hammering proves it was sabotage.   The sensors are designed to only go in one way and need to be
    forced any other way.    So right there your whole spiel about Russian engineers failing to design "foolproof"
    components is BS.

    Yeah, I still strongly suspect that the loss of the 3x Glonass-M was a case of deliberate sabotage. It sounds like the yaw module isn't a good fit when inserted upside down, and a real effort had to be made to make it go together. Interestingly, the faulty installation apparently gives the correct signals when the booster is stationary, and the error is only apparent when the core is moved, so the normal pre-flight checks would not pick it up. Sounds like exactly the sort of weak point that a knowledgable saboteur would direct his minions to attack.

    The recent loss of Kanopus-ST is also fishy. Sounds like a pyro-bolt failed to fire, so i wonder if a wire was cut? I'd be interested to know if the pyrobolt firing circuit allows for cut-wire detection, ie drives a low mA current to continuously prove electrical continuity, and doubles as a positive confirmation of bolt firing (ie subsequent continuity loss detected). The fact that the satellite was testing technologies for possible detection of sea surface disturbances to track submarines makes me suspect that the Uh'muricans may have wanted to prevent/delay Russian progress in this Holy-Grail of remote sensing technology. Never over-estimate the loyalty of your workers when 5th columnists offer them outrageously large sums of money to commit treachery...

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    Re: Russia: Space News and Discussion

    Post  kvs on Mon Dec 28, 2015 7:51 pm

    Big_Gazza wrote:
    kvs wrote:@Vann7,

    You are wrong, it is always easier to destroy than to build.   Even your hypothetical "foolproof" systems would be
    open to sabotage.   It was not an "idiot" that hammered in the sensors upside down, it was a saboteur.   The
    act of hammering proves it was sabotage.   The sensors are designed to only go in one way and need to be
    forced any other way.    So right there your whole spiel about Russian engineers failing to design "foolproof"
    components is BS.

    Yeah, I still strongly suspect that the loss of the 3x Glonass-M was a case of deliberate sabotage.  It sounds like the yaw module isn't a good fit when inserted upside down, and a real effort had to be made to make it go together.  Interestingly, the faulty installation apparently gives the correct signals when the booster is stationary, and the error is only apparent when the core is moved, so the normal pre-flight checks would not pick it up.  Sounds like exactly the sort of weak point that a knowledgable saboteur would direct his minions to attack.

    The recent loss of Kanopus-ST is also fishy.  Sounds like a pyro-bolt failed to fire, so i wonder if a wire was cut?  I'd be interested to know if the pyrobolt firing circuit allows for cut-wire detection, ie drives a low mA current to continuously prove electrical continuity, and doubles as a positive confirmation of bolt firing (ie subsequent continuity loss detected).  The fact that the satellite was testing technologies for possible detection of sea surface disturbances to track submarines makes me suspect that the Uh'muricans may have wanted to prevent/delay Russian progress in this Holy-Grail of remote sensing technology.  Never over-estimate the loyalty of your workers when 5th columnists offer them outrageously large sums of money to commit treachery...

    Those are good observations about remote detection of sabotaged parts. I guess it is a very difficult and costly task to engineer such capability.
    At the end of the day some level of trust has to be placed in the employees. Of course this is a weakness, but then everything should be robotized
    and a minder assigned to the few remaining employees.

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    Re: Russia: Space News and Discussion

    Post  Big_Gazza on Tue Dec 29, 2015 2:46 am

    kvs wrote:
    Big_Gazza wrote:
    kvs wrote:@Vann7,

    You are wrong, it is always easier to destroy than to build.   Even your hypothetical "foolproof" systems would be
    open to sabotage.   It was not an "idiot" that hammered in the sensors upside down, it was a saboteur.   The
    act of hammering proves it was sabotage.   The sensors are designed to only go in one way and need to be
    forced any other way.    So right there your whole spiel about Russian engineers failing to design "foolproof"
    components is BS.

    Yeah, I still strongly suspect that the loss of the 3x Glonass-M was a case of deliberate sabotage.  It sounds like the yaw module isn't a good fit when inserted upside down, and a real effort had to be made to make it go together.  Interestingly, the faulty installation apparently gives the correct signals when the booster is stationary, and the error is only apparent when the core is moved, so the normal pre-flight checks would not pick it up.  Sounds like exactly the sort of weak point that a knowledgable saboteur would direct his minions to attack.

    The recent loss of Kanopus-ST is also fishy.  Sounds like a pyro-bolt failed to fire, so i wonder if a wire was cut?  I'd be interested to know if the pyrobolt firing circuit allows for cut-wire detection, ie drives a low mA current to continuously prove electrical continuity, and doubles as a positive confirmation of bolt firing (ie subsequent continuity loss detected).  The fact that the satellite was testing technologies for possible detection of sea surface disturbances to track submarines makes me suspect that the Uh'muricans may have wanted to prevent/delay Russian progress in this Holy-Grail of remote sensing technology.  Never over-estimate the loyalty of your workers when 5th columnists offer them outrageously large sums of money to commit treachery...

    Those are good observations about remote detection of sabotaged parts.   I guess it is a very difficult and costly task to engineer such capability.
    At the end of the day some level of trust has to be placed in the employees.   Of course this is a weakness, but then everything should be robotized
    and a minder assigned to the few remaining employees.

    Agreed, and this is probably the weakest point of the proton - its lack of modern digital electronics and inability to perform extensive internal diagnostics which leads to heavy reliance on adherence to assembly and integration procedures. Knowledgeable saboteurs can hit the vehicle in its weak spots where they know that the check-out routines will not detect the damage.

    I certainly hope and expect that the Angara controls & instrumentation allows for extensive self-diagnostics down to the board and sub-component level, including short/wire break conditions on all control loops. Industrial SIL-rated (Safety Integrity Level) safety systems used for emergency shutdown and fire & gas do this a matter of course, so the application of these self-checking technologies to rockets and missiles would be entirely appropriate.

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    Re: Russia: Space News and Discussion

    Post  George1 on Tue Dec 29, 2015 8:41 am

    Russian space agency gets replaced by state corporation — Kremlin

    Vladimir Putin has signed a decree to abolish the Federal Space Agency

    MOSCOW, December 28. /TASS/. Russian President Vladimir Putin has signed a decree to abolish the Federal Space Agency Roscosmos, the Kremlin’s website said.
    A state-run space corporation will be created instead, the decree says.
    "Under the federal law of July 13, 2015 On the State-Run Corporation for Space Activities Roscosmos the Federal Space Agency shall be abolished," the decree said. All documents concerning the agency’s activity will now be applicable to the State Corporation for Space Activities Roscosmos.
    Putin instructed the Russian government to ensure the continuity of powers and functions to be handed over from the abolished federal space agency to the Roscosmos corporation, see to it the required liquidation procedures are accomplished within the officially established deadlines and establish guarantees and compensations the dismissed employees are entitled to in accordance with the applicable legislation.
    The Cabinet of Ministers is to resolve other financial, material, technical and other issues in connection with the implementation of this decree.
    The presidential decree will take effect on January 1, 2016.

    More:
    http://tass.ru/en/science/847295


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    Re: Russia: Space News and Discussion

    Post  George1 on Tue Dec 29, 2015 8:55 am

    Flight around Moon to be carried out after 2025, according to new Russian space program

    The draft Federal Space Program until 2025 envisages allocating 38.5 billion rubles for Moon projects, Russian Federal Space Agency Roscosmos reports

    MOSCOW, December 24. /TASS/. Russia’s new draft Federal Space Program provides for a flight around the moon in the second half of the 2020s, head of the Russian Federal Space Agency (Roscosmos) Igor Komarov told reporters on Thursday.
    "The flight around the Moon with the use of heavy-class carrier rockets has been postponed from 2025, as previously planned, beyond the period covered by the program," he said, adding that the project would be implemented "in the second half of the next decade."
    "The Moon program is the most important. It is planned to allocate 205.1 billion rubles for its implementation. Two large stages of implementing this program are planned. Five automatic Moon spacecraft are planned to be launched from 2019 to 2024 at the Luna-Avtomat stage," Komarov said
    The draft Federal Space Program until 2025 also envisages allocating 28.1 billion rubles for Mars research, and 37.2 billion rubles for research in the framework of the Spektr projects, Russian Federal Space Agency Roscosmos said on Thursday.

    Russia proposes joint project with ESA on returning soil samples from Phobos in 2024


    Russia proposes to implement jointly with the European Space Agency (ESA) the project of returning soil samples from Phobos in 2024, Russian Federal Space Agency Roscosmos head Igor Komarov told journalists on Thursday.
    "We propose to implement jointly with ESA the project of returning soil samples from Phobos in the framework of the Boomerang project in 2024. In the future, a similar mission is planned to Mars," Komarov said.
    The mission in the framework of the Boomerang project will become the second Russian expedition to Phobos. The first spacecraft, Fobos-Grunt, was lost in 2011. ESA earlier announced its plans to take part in the new mission. Talks on the matter were held at the MAKS Air Show 2015 that took place in August in the Moscow Region.

    Draft Federal Space Program envisages launch of 150 spacecraft


    The new draft Federal Space Program until 2025 envisages designing and launching 150 spacecraft for social-economic and scientific purposes, Russian Federal Space Agency's head went on to say.
    "In the framework of the new draft Federal Space Program, it is planned to design and launch 150 spacecraft for social-economic and scientific purposes. The previous draft program envisaged launching 185 spacecraft," he said.
    According to him, the draft Federal Space Program until 2025 includes projects and research of reusable rocket stages. "The return and successful landing can be considered as a success," Komarov said commenting on the successful landing of the SpaceX Falcon 9 rocket.
    "In our Federal Space Program, we also have projects and research devoted to reusable stages and the possibility of using reusable spacecraft," he added.
    Those who developed the new draft Federal Space Program for 2016-2025 managed to keep all basic experiments and research when optimizing the budget, Roscosmos head noted.

    Submitting draft Federal Space Program for 2016-2025 postponed until next year


    However, the draft Federal Space Program for 2016-2025 will not be submitted until the end of this year as planned before, Igor Komarov noted.
    "We have to coordinate it with the Economic Development Ministry and Finance Ministry. I think that we will try to coordinate it until the end of this year so we can submit it to the government next year," Komarov said.
    According to Roscosmos head, financing the Federal Space Program until 2025 will be restricted by 2016 indicators for the first three years.
    "Additional restrictions were imposed, in particular freezing financing in the first three years of implementing the program at one level — at the 2016 level. It stands at 104.5 billion rubles. The total amount of financing until 2021 is set at 722.5 billion rubles," Komarov said.
    In mid-December Roscosmos head Igor Komarov announced plans to submit the draft space program for 2016-2025 to the government until the end of the year. It was reported that around 1.4 trillion rubles will be allocated for the program while the draft law presented in spring envisaged 2 trillion rubles of financing. Additional 115 billion rubles may be allocated for projects that will be finally approved after 2021.

    More:
    http://tass.ru/en/science/846562


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    Re: Russia: Space News and Discussion

    Post  Vann7 on Fri Jan 01, 2016 7:20 am

    kvs wrote:
    Austin wrote:Russia developing super-heavy rocket — deputy PM

    http://tass.ru/en/science/847810

    So Russia has not dropped the plans for a heavy rocket.   I guess we can put all that liberast fantasy to rest.
    But we lack details about this project.  



    Dam... thats real fucking good news!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  Laughing

    Russia needs to increase its space budget ,specially now ,more than ever.
    Nothing raise the nation pride and unity more than being a leader in space and this
    super heavy new rocket definitively will not have any competition in the world. Nasa not even
    have now their own rockets ,and only SpaceX private is doing something for them in the
    ISS ferry role.

    Cut social programs a bit , salaries on government positions a bit ,increase taxes a bit in gasoline , (is very cheap now) and in technology and luxury taxes too.. decommision 1/3 of the Russian navy in service that is old from soviet times. and from there you will get the money
    to finance not only a super heavy rocket ,but a space shuttle too and Russia also get its own space station and a moon base.

    Any money invested in people doing expensive patrols world wide on the sea on an invasion on Russia that will never happen could be better used to produce real things ,space technology ,move to a new level the space program ,something that will significantly help Russia not only
    help boost its international image even more than Sochi 2014 or FIFA 2018 could ever hope to do.,but also this attract investors and tourism too. Russia could also target space tourism , make its new space center like a disney land attraction ,that people could observe space rockets take off... and Russia needs to aim to send a manned human vision to moon and mars or any satellite of mars.Investing in Russia space program is money that will return multiplied by x10 ,
    in the attraction it will generate to Russia for business but also in scientific talent too. People with money like  to invest always in nations that shows potential ,that are strong . and nothing could promote Russia for business ,as a self sufficient independent nation ,like its space program can do.

    So lets summarize the benefits of Russia taking its space program to a new level.
    1)It will promote lot of business and investors world wide on Russia economy.
    2)It will help boost Russia image as strong nation .
    3)Create Russia pride and patriotism , this is good for unity of people in time like this ,
    good talent will accept staying in Russia even if pay less money for same job.
    4)it will significantly help Russia technology industry and move Russia economy.
    Promote innovation and people to study.
    5) it will help Russia defense Industry with the stealth militarization of space , using
    its own space program for helping create a better security and monitoring of Russia space
    and better defenses to its radars. or even weaponize space if Americans drop from the treaty.
    6)it will attract Tourism and foreign scientist and engineers. everyone likes to work with winners.
    7)And finally and not least.. because it will significantly help Russia to create an industrial revolution. Not only rockets companies will benefit.. but even Companies that works in the
    food industry ,media ,advertisement , electronics , semiconductors , clothing ,health /medicine industry will benefit and creation of new composites and materials for space always ends being
    used for civilian use. and development of advance Robots will increase too. and development in Russia far east ,new subway ,roads,train ,create a space city ,roads , and generate lots of small business too ,near the space center Russia is making. This also will attract Russian foreign money to be better invested in Russia.

    All those Russia Billionares liberals that feels citizens of the world ,will see things differently if Russia take the indisputable leadership in space and become a technology super power ,as today Nations like Japan ,South Korea and USA are seen.

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    Re: Russia: Space News and Discussion

    Post  Big_Gazza on Fri Jan 01, 2016 9:42 am

    Rmf wrote:there is some thrust augmentation due to engine spacing and incoming air heating and expanding underneath it. even n-1 was using that effect.
    like i said less then 10% loss of isp is impressive for simplicity ,less parts, and low pressure chamber which other cheaper and easily produced materials can be used and still be reusable. tolerances are amazing. you can put small steel bearing and pump would still works thats advantage of gas generator compared to closed cycle , and closed cycle engines are heavier ,and because combustion pressure is low you dont waste much fuel for gas generator anyways ,lol. there is usually always some fuel left in primary stages i am surprised you didnt know ,because you never cutoff at 0 fuel but at 2-5% fuel because you can have instability... so 5% -7%even that is enough to land.
    and youre wrong -combustion pressure doesnt increase isp proportionatly, but very slightly the higher you go ,less and less gain you have.
    merlin still cant replace rd-180 its stupid they are diferent categories -i cant belive you pull this off only to discredit yourself.

    Been busy, so late response I'm afraid...

    Thrust augmentation is an established and common technology (in jet engines at least), but requires an inlet for ambient air to enter the engine bay and absorb heat, but the F9 design doesn't include such so an airflow cannot be established.  In any case, this only works at low altitude where air is dense, and the rocket doesn't spend much time in this flight regime.  I believe you are correct in that the N-1 attempted to utilize this effect, and I've read that air inlets in the engine bay skirting were provided for this purpose, though I can't identify such on available photos/plans.

    I agree that lower chamber pressure in a gas-generator unit results in less demand for propellants to drive the turbopump, but its not really an advantage.  You use less propellents, but ISP suffers.  You gain on one hand, but lose on the other.

    Agree that you cannot cutoff at 0% else you run the risk of running dry in one stream (oxidiser or fuel) and the consequences of dry running even for  a few seconds would be catastrophic. I'd be interested to know what the cut-off level is as 2-5% sounds too imprecise (5% remaining propellant load is simply wasteful).  Using 2% cutoff, and that the Merlin 1D can only be throttled down to ~70% of rated thrust, this roughly suggests that a recovery needs between 2% + 7-10% or ~9-12% nominal propellant load to effect a landing, or say 12-15% with some safety margin (if you have a source that is definitive, please advise).  That's a fair chunk of propellant load that's unavailable for payload delivery....

    I didn't claim ISP vs Combustion pressure is a linear relationship, I said it was proportional - its clearly going to be an exponential(ish) curve with diminishing returns.

    BTW, how am I "discrediting" myself?  Is this your usual debating style?

    Finally, the single chamber RD-191 can apparently be throttled down to ~30% of nominal thrust, and has the superior performance of the RD family, so if SpaceX would consider UPGRADING to a REAL engine, they would greatly assist their quest for a practical recoverable booster system  Very Happy

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    Re: Russia: Space News and Discussion

    Post  George1 on Fri Jan 01, 2016 2:20 pm

    Russia's Reshetnev Information Satellite Systems (ISS-Reshetnev) company has closed deals to supply 16 satellites for various purposes in 2015, the company said Wednesday.

    Read more: http://sputniknews.com/science/20151230/1032523290/russia-makes-satellites.html#ixzz3vzyHJ7FP


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    Re: Russia: Space News and Discussion

    Post  Big_Gazza on Fri Jan 01, 2016 4:16 pm

    Sea Launch project may resume operation in 2016 - CEO

    The international consortium Sea Launch that uses the Zenit carrier rockets for launches from a floating platform in the Pacific Ocean may return to the market of launch services in the coming months, the company's CEO Sergei Gugkayev told TASS on Wednesday.

    "We plan to be actively involved in the struggle for new orders in the first quarter of 2016 on the basis of deal structuring with the investor," he said.

    For more details: http://tass.ru/en/science/847808

    I certainly hope that Sea Launch doesn't somehow avoid dissolution. Russia should end ALL INVOLVEMENT with Ukrop aerospace enterprises.


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    Re: Russia: Space News and Discussion

    Post  GarryB on Sat Jan 02, 2016 7:36 am

    I would like to see a new Sea Launch company/group... a consortium of more Russia friendly countries like Russia... and perhaps Cuba or India and base the launch platform and control ship in either Cuba or India...

    Or perhaps how about a modified Akula SSBN? Any excuse to keep one of them in service eh? Smile


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    Re: Russia: Space News and Discussion

    Post  George1 on Wed Jan 06, 2016 5:56 pm

    Anatoly Zak wrote:Russia's Big Plan To Finally Put Cosmonauts on the Moon

    The Russian space agency, Roscosmos, typically celebrates the new year in a traditional Russian fashion: With a two-week bash lasting from New Year's Eve until the Orthodox Christmas on January 14. But this year, things were a little more subdued. Workers building the new Vostochny spaceport in the country's remote far-eastern taiga were given just two days to mark the coming of 2016.

    Now, that's partly because of the lagging construction at Vostochny. But Roskosmos had another reason to be in a less-then-festive mood. The Kremlin crossed off the biggest item on the agency's Christmas list: a flight to the Moon.

    The annexation of Crimea, the war in Ukraine, and the resulting economic sanctions from the West—combined with falling oil prices—have squeezed the Russian economy and forced Moscow to tighten the belt across the board. Not surprisingly, all but most essential projects in the Russian space program were slashed.

    But don't write off Russia just yet. Kremlin officials were quick to reassure everyone that all the ambitious plans were only postponed, not canceled. Without much fanfare, Russia space experts have been planning a new way to send the first cosmonauts to the moon.

    Back From the Brink


    Russian space strategists eyed the Moon as the ultimate destination a decade ago, as soon as the booming oil prices pulled the country's economy out of the post-Soviet rubble. (Then, as now, many had left the Russian space program for dead.) But big plans had to wait while Roscosmos struggled to rebuild its battered Soviet legacy and to reshape itself for the new millennium. One small step in this process happened last week, when Russian president Vladimir Putin signed a decree (eerily numbered 666) that formally transformed the government agency of Roscosmos into a so-called state corporation, modeled after existing Russian industry giants such as the highly successful nuclear conglomerate Rosatom.

    In the meantime, Russian engineers have been hard at work devising plans to revive the unrealized Soviet dream of sending cosmonauts to the moon. Visions of a next-generation manned spacecraft that would replace the venerable but small Soyuz capsule appeared on the drawing board, and some of its components are now undergoing testing. Soon to be christened with a new name based on the results of the online poll, the new four-seat vehicle is designed to travel 99 percent of the distance between the Earth and the moon.

    When the huge rocket needed to launch the new lunar ship in a single shot was deemed too expensive in 2015, Russian engineers rejiggered their lunar expeditions to be blasted by four smaller, cheaper Angara boosters, which could pay for themselves by delivering commercial and military satellites in addition to flying cosmonauts. As a result, the planned Russian lunar expeditions promise to be much cheaper than those that NASA would launch with the behemoth SLS rocket the United States is currently developing, which is too big for most commercial purposes.

    The Lunar Strategy, Detailed

    Over the course of 2015, Russian engineers quietly devised a moon-going strategy including 41 launches of Angara rockets to support the nation's lunar program during the next two decades. According to this grand plan, beginning in 2023 seven Russian crews would fly the new spacecraft, and five of them land on the moon, concluding with the establishment of a modular habitable moon base.

    Here is how the Russian moon-exploration program would proceed, according to the latest schedule:

    Unmanned flight testing of the new spacecraft in Earth orbit would start in 2021, followed by an automated docking at the International Space Station in 2023. In the same year, the first crew would fly the new ship to the ISS.

    In 2025, the new Russian spacecraft would be ready to make its first flight beyond the Earth's orbit without crew. The year later, the lunar module designed to take cosmonauts from the lunar orbit to the lunar surface would also make an unmanned test flight. By that time, a pair of Russian robotic landers, currently under development, is expected to pave the way for human explorers.

    By 2027, the first Russian crew is scheduled to venture into deep space and reach the lunar orbit, matching the feat of NASA's Apollo 8 mission in 1969. Finally, in 2029, the first Russian cosmonauts would land on the Moon. Four more expeditions would follow through 2035. From the outset, each manned landing would be preceded by the delivery of a habitable module to the lunar orbit and then to the lunar surface.

    Still Aiming for the Moon


    Last October, during the International Astronautics Congress in Jerusalem, a Russian industry team offered this lunar strategy publicly to seek cooperation with international partners. NASA is reportedly evaluating the proposal.

    With more than a decade of efforts invested into the lunar program, Russia is unlikely to drop its ambitions despite the current budget slump. The main thrust of the Russian space program will remain aimed at the Moon. Even after the latest financial woes, the development of the new-generation spacecraft remains on the books as does the development of robotic pathfinder missions to the Moon.

    If history is any guide, the price of oil will not stay very low forever and the economic downturn should eventually give way to growth in Russia—hopefully, helped by normalizing relations with its neighbors and Western allies. After that, it's on to the moon.

    http://www.popularmechanics.com/space/moon-mars/a18849/russia-plan-cosmonauts-moon/


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    Re: Russia: Space News and Discussion

    Post  kvs on Thu Jan 07, 2016 12:42 am

    Anatoly Zak is a liberast kreakl dirtbag.  Russia's economy grew the most between 1999 and 2007.   That was before the
    oil price spike in 2008.  



    Russian GDP growth (http://data.worldbank.org/indicator/NY.GDP.MKTP.KD.ZG):

    1999:  6.4%
    2000:  10%
    2001:  5.1%
    2002:  4.7%
    2003:  7.3%
    2004:  7.2%
    2005:  6.4%
    2006:  8.2%
    2007:  8.5%
    2008:  5.2%
    2009: -7.8%
    2010:  4.5%
    2011:  4.3%
    2012:  3.4%
    2013:  1.3%

    One could make a rather strong case that high oil prices suppressed Russian GDP growth.  Zak is parroting the NATO media propaganda
    trope about Russia's economy being that of a one commodity banana republic.   The data I supply above shows a strong anti-correlation
    and debunks this trope.   The only time when the GDP grew strongly together with oil prices was in 2006 and 2007.  But that was for
    moderate oil price increase to about $60 and not $100.    This growth also reflected the re-ignition of Russia's economy after stabilization
    during Putin's first term.    That's right, Putin laid the ground work for Russia's GDP growth thanks to stability and the suppression of
    oligarch games.   Ukraine is what Russia would look like today if the oligarchs were left free to do as they pleased.

    Also note Zak's use of NATO media propaganda language in the above screed.  He yaps about "Russia's ambitions".  What drivel
    designed for trained western media consumer poodles.   The proper phrase is "Russia's plans".

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    Re: Russia: Space News and Discussion

    Post  sepheronx on Thu Jan 07, 2016 4:02 am

    And hence why a western article will use him.  I guess he forgets that Roscosmos budget, even if partially slashed, is a heck of a lot more than used to be. And being operated as a state run company vs what it was before, allows roscosmos to also obtain its own profits and any additional revenue can be moved to whatever program is needed.

    We were told a super heavy rocket is pooched idea. But now it apparently is back on the table.  What next that was initially slashed will be brought back?  

    People mock Roscosmos or Russia for their own egos. But they also mocked India's attempt and sure enough, India was successful with a significantly less budget.  Roscosmos will now have more room to manouver around and do its business.  It will not only be profitable compared to before, it will also have more options in obtaining successful adventures.

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    Re: Russia: Space News and Discussion

    Post  Big_Gazza on Thu Jan 07, 2016 12:56 pm

    I cannot help thinking that a SHLV could be afforded relatively cheaply if Russia would enter into a joint development with China for their planned LM-9. Given that engines are likely to be a major focus of development, Russia could assist greatly by provided technology for RD-0120 hydrolox engines for the core stage and possibly Angara URM-1s as strap-ons, though an upgraded design using RD-181 would be a more energetic option.

    Q - would Russia accept an arrangement where RD-0120 manufacture was re-started in China, and where the jointly-developed booster would be launched from a Chinese pad (at least initially)?

    In time, Russia could fund and build their own RD-0120 & LM9 line and launch complex (the rights to such would form part of the joint development agreement), and this would provide a useful redundancy in the event of accidents disabling either nations SHLV pad(s).

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    Re: Russia: Space News and Discussion

    Post  max steel on Thu Jan 07, 2016 9:03 pm

    About 30% of the payload is surrendered for Falcon 9. This new Falcon 9 Full Thrust has massive propellant reserves to allow reuse and engine out capability, an unheard of level of propellant densification by superchilling (more propellantss per volume) and a 33% performance increase over the previous Falcon 9 v1.1. And this spring comes Falcon Heavy, 3 of these new beasts tied together and capable of out-lifting Atlas V, Delta IV Heavy, Proton etc.

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    Re: Russia: Space News and Discussion

    Post  Big_Gazza on Fri Jan 08, 2016 9:54 am

    max steel wrote:About 30% of the payload is surrendered for Falcon 9. This new Falcon 9 Full Thrust has massive propellant reserves to allow reuse and engine out capability, an unheard of level of propellant densification by superchilling (more propellantss per volume) and a 33% performance increase over the previous Falcon 9 v1.1. And this spring comes Falcon Heavy, 3 of these new beasts tied together and capable of out-lifting Atlas V, Delta IV Heavy, Proton etc.

    ...and AFAIK no-one has yet explained exactly what the F9H is supposed to lift. Space station modules? Nope, nothing planned. Manned lunar expeditions? Nope. Multiple heavy geostationary commsats? No-one is going to risk 3-4 heavy birds on a single launch.

    F9H doesn't make any sense to me. It seems to be a rocket without a (realistic) mission.

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    Russia needs to increase its space budget

    Post  Rmf on Wed Jan 13, 2016 1:05 am

    Big_Gazza wrote:
    max steel wrote:About 30% of the payload is surrendered for Falcon 9. This new Falcon 9 Full Thrust has massive propellant reserves to allow reuse and engine out capability, an unheard of level of propellant densification by superchilling (more propellantss per volume) and a 33% performance increase over the previous Falcon 9 v1.1. And this spring comes Falcon Heavy, 3 of these new beasts tied together and capable of out-lifting Atlas V, Delta IV Heavy, Proton etc.

    ...and AFAIK no-one has yet explained exactly what the F9H is supposed to lift.  Space station modules?  Nope, nothing planned.   Manned lunar expeditions?  Nope.   Multiple heavy geostationary commsats?  No-one is going to risk 3-4 heavy birds on a single launch.

    F9H doesn't make any sense to me.  It seems to be a rocket without a (realistic) mission.
    its about capability. extra capability. it may have zero launches first year and 5 launches next year then zero again...
    anyway use can be in heavy interplanetary probes, telescopes to langragian points, and moon missions....just few options

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    Re: Russia: Space News and Discussion

    Post  Rmf on Wed Jan 13, 2016 1:07 am

    sepheronx wrote:And hence why a western article will use him.  I guess he forgets that Roscosmos budget, even if partially slashed, is a heck of a lot more than used to be. And being operated as a state run company vs what it was before, allows roscosmos to also obtain its own profits and any additional revenue can be moved to whatever program is needed.

    We were told a super heavy rocket is pooched idea. But now it apparently is back on the table.  What next that was initially slashed will be brought back?  

    People mock Roscosmos or Russia for their own egos. But they also mocked India's attempt and sure enough, India was successful with a significantly less budget.  Roscosmos will now have more room to manouver around and do its business.  It will not only be profitable compared to before, it will also have more options in obtaining successful adventures.
    well when they finish vostochny ,that would free resourses, money ,for new rockets. and as i  said it was stupid not to have heavy class rocket and no angrara56789 can do that.

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